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Kennen's piss poor laning against mobile burst champions really needs to be addressed

Yenn··1 votes·715 views

Kind of ridiculous that Irelia + Lee Sin, both with 50% health, can successfully dive my Kennen with 100% health, who is also up on CS and has just returned from buying, and get out alive.

Kennen is supposed to be a team fighting champion. Do you not think it's a problem that his early/mid game AoE damage can't even deter two half health champions from diving him under his tower?

What's even more ridiculous is that I literally cannot enter the lane against Irelia after 10 minutes, because her Q + E combo will dumpster 70% of my health before I get out of the stun, and I can only retaliate for maybe 40-50% of her health if I blow my ult. At which point, my kill potential drops to zero, and I have no way to protect myself from her next Q + E combo.

This isn't even a standard problem of 'Oh, I got hard countered, I need to play safely or build defensively,' this is a problem of 'Oh, I got hard countered, I cannot even enter my lane and there's nothing I can do about it, good game.' An entire class of champions putting Kennen into a match up like this is not okay.

This needs to be fixed.

12 Comments

jr deputy meow1 votes

i actually don't think this needs to be addressed at all kennen is ranged kennen is manaless he has massive teamfight potential he has poke why should he ALSO be able to win trades against champions whose only option for beating him is to force full trades

have you considered the possibility that you're doing it wrong, in other words, you're trying to play the lane to your opponent's sole strength? Ward up, freeze the lane, and punish them every time they try to come up to CS. When you both hit six, shift to playing back and immediately call for a gank. They WILL try to force a trade if they're able, and they'll probably want a jungler with them, so having your jungler nearby could be the difference between a double kill for your team and a snowballed irelia on their team.

Yenn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=jr deputy meow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=01oHUu6Q,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-15T20:52:05.354+0000)

i actually don't think this needs to be addressed at all kennen is ranged he has massive teamfight potential he has poke why should he ALSO be able to win trades against champions whose only option for beating him is to force full trades

You seem to either not be reading, or just can't understand the problem.

The problem isn't winning trades, it's that they can put him into a situation where he has to either recall or die within seconds of him entering the lane and there's nothing you can do about it. If you can't enter the lane, you can't CS or get EXP, then you fall behind in levels and the game becomes a 4v5.

Basically, these champions can dumpster 50% of Kennen's health without their ultimate, with no counter play on Kennen's part, once they finish their first item. Nothing Kennen can build can stop it.

Go play a game as Kennen vs. Irelia. Enjoy literally not being able to enter the lane around 10-15 minutes, depending on how bad the Irelia is.

jr deputy meow1 votes

this is highly anecdotal. Yes, irelia tends to beat kennen around levels ~7 and ~9 and especially right after she finishes her first major item. those are major power spikes for her. But you seem to be missing some things:

  1. Irelia's whole kit is built around forcing engages on squishy ranged champions.
  2. Irelia beats almost EVERYONE at levels 7 and 9. Yes, you're correct that it's a thing that happens that irelia hits a certain point and suddenly she gets out of control. But this isn't a phenomenon unique to kennen. That's just how the champion works. If they buff kennen to the point where he can out-trade the champion who he struggles MOST against in the situation that's MOST advantageous to that champion, he'd literally be impossible to lane against. Kennen already has his innate advantages. Irelia has hers, and it happens to be a fact that her advantages allow her to force trades against kennen.
Yenn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=jr deputy meow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=01oHUu6Q,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-15T21:13:31.089+0000)

this is highly anecdotal. Yes, irelia tends to beat kennen around levels ~7 and ~9 and especially right after she finishes her first major item. those are major power spikes for her. But you seem to be missing some things:

  1. Irelia's whole kit is built around forcing engages on squishy ranged champions.
  2. Irelia beats almost EVERYONE at levels 7 and 9. Yes, you're correct that it's a thing that happens that irelia hits a certain point and suddenly she gets out of control. But this isn't a phenomenon unique to kennen. That's just how the champion works. If they buff kennen to the point where he can out-trade the champion who he struggles MOST against in the situation that's MOST advantageous to that champion, he'd literally be impossible to lane against. Kennen already has his innate advantages. Irelia has hers, and it happens to be a fact that her advantages allow her to force trades against kennen.

And you're missing the point that Irelia is not the only champion who can do this. Most non-full tank top champions can do this. Kennen's auto range is low. Wukong can do this. Darius can do this. Riven can do this. Lee Sin can do this. Any melee assassin with Hexdrinker can do this. Virtually any melee champion with mobility can shit all over Kennen the same way Irelia does.

He doesn't need to out-trade, he needs to survive. He has nothing in his kit to help him survive against this shit right now, and his kit doesn't work at mid lane outside of niche counter picks thanks to lack of wave clear, so he needs to be able to survive it.

Kennen's only advantage is that he shits all over Wood V players, because they don't realize that they're allowed to recall after he's been harassing them at level 4.

jr deputy meow1 votes

Look, i'm gonna lay it out plain and simple. Wukong, darius, riven, lee sin, irelia what advantage do all of these champions share? they can force trades against ranged champions What disadvantage to all of these champions share? they have no way to influence trades against ranged champions WITHOUT entering melee range

SO, what do you think these champions HAVE to do, have to BE ABLE to do, in order to function at any basic level?

Yeah, they have to be able to win trades against ranged champions if they enter melee range. Well, there's your problem.

So, how do you propose that this problem you've identified (that is, the problem of a ranged, manaless champion with poke and aoe teamfighting potential not being able to fight melee divers once they enter melee range) should be addressed?

I'm all ears, Mr. Diamond player.

Shonjl1 votes

Not a problem, Kennen is a teamfight champion, of course his weakness should be weak 1v1, which Irelia and Lee are very strong in 1v1.

He got countered so you had to work around it, it seems you didn't. Since Im sure you didn't get turret dived with them at 50% hp and you at 100% hp. Kennen can stun them easily under turret and any smart Kennen gets Zhonyas first item so they would die every time.

Yenn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=jr deputy meow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=01oHUu6Q,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-15T20:52:05.354+0000)

i actually don't think this needs to be addressed at all kennen is ranged kennen is manaless he has massive teamfight potential he has poke why should he ALSO be able to win trades against champions whose only option for beating him is to force full trades

have you considered the possibility that you're doing it wrong, in other words, you're trying to play the lane to your opponent's sole strength? Ward up, freeze the lane, and punish them every time they try to come up to CS. When you both hit six, shift to playing back and immediately call for a gank. They WILL try to force a trade if they're able, and they'll probably want a jungler with them, so having your jungler nearby could be the difference between a double kill for your team and a snowballed irelia on their team.

Do you think there's anything weird about you telling a Diamond player how to play? Especially one that has mained Kennen since season 1? Just curious.

I'll just assume you don't know how to play and explain the problem with this to you, though.

When Irelia comes up for CS, she Q's to a caster minion, Sheen kills it and resets the cooldown, and then she Q's to me. Essentially, her harass range is 2x my auto range. She follows up with a stun and I come out of it with 50% of my health missing. I stun her and get distance, and now what do I do?

I recall, because in 10 seconds, she's going to do this again with her ult and I'm going to die. Meanwhile, my entire combo only took 1/4 of her health. She can survive another two combos, assuming I ult on one of them. I cannot survive even one more from her.

Irelia doesn't trade with Kennen. She just stomps Kennen. There's no such thing as a 'trade' in this match up, or most other match ups like it.

jr deputy meow1 votes

so irelia counters kennen in lane after a certain point. You're still missing the point which is that this combo pattern you just described is Irelia's core strength. Kennen just so happens to not have the tools to deal with it, but he has core strengths in so many other areas. Why should he be able to fight irelia in her best area? Here's my bronze advice: Start banning irelia if you HAVE to firstpick kennen and play him every game. bam.

It's sort of like, have you ever tried to lane against pantheon? You would know by now, being diamond, that there is a whole class of champions that simply cannot lane against pantheon almost no matter what happens. Teemo can't lane against pantheon. Fiora (except an exceptionally good one) cannot function at all against pantheon in lane, and she can lane against almost everyone. Pantheon's core strength overlaps with these champions in a manner that happens to counter them in lane. However, these champions have other strengths, even in a game against pantheon, that give them options to outscale him. Similarly, Kennen may get dumpstered in lane against an irelia with any idea what she's doing, but she happens to be able to dive ONE carry in teamfights, maybe two if she's fed. A fed Kennen can make the whole concept of organized teamfighting a nonoption for the enemy team. Isn't that one of the reasons you decided to main him?

Dominick Destine1 votes

Kennen isn't a duelist.

Irelia is.

Yenn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=01oHUu6Q,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-05-15T20:59:18.286+0000)

Kennen isn't a duelist.

Irelia is.

He doesn't need to be a duelist, but he needs to at least be able to enter the lane against duelists.

If he can't enter the lane, it's basically an automatic loss for his team, unless mid and bottom are stomping. Kennen could have just AFK'd and been equally or more useful.

Ruin Lance1 votes

i've experienced this a lot. despite him having what should be what should be a super anti-dive ult, it's still super easy to dive him because of champs like this. i find myself roaming a lot because of this, but it's still pretty annoying.

Shonjl1 votes

You are comparing a Kennen, which builds no tankiness, is extremely squishy naturally, and has nothing in his kit to bulk himself up, but he also is item dependant, to an Irelia that is naturally tanky, has built in sustain, and isn't as item dependant for her damage. And Lee Sin which has shields, sustain, naturally tanky, and pretty high base damage and not item reliant for his damage.

It isn't surprising at all that Kennen got stomped, he has no early power at all. Once you get MR or some form of sustain, his damage is ignorable since he needs heavy AD or AP to become a threat damage wise. They both have sustain or mitigation right from the get go and all they need is some MR and Kennen is gonna lose the entire time.

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