Cloud 9's strategy in first week was incredible

Wolfeur·Oct 11, 2015·10 votes·1,089 views

Too bad they don't have another one...

24 Comments

DestructoDaveOct 11, 20151 votes

Has nothing to do with strategy, and everything to do with incredibly poor play. They are just straight up getting beat down in the laning phase, because of poor play overall. Esp. from Sneaky and Lemon. The amount of times they just died for nothing those 2 games is rediculous.

WolfeurOct 11, 20153 votes

It absolutely has to do with strategy. When they faced Fnatic last week, they weren't in control of the game, Fnatic was playing better, but Cloud 9's strategy allowed them to be the lesser team because of all the pressure they could put on different lanes.

The other teams started to pick/ban accordingly (mostly banning Azir). Once the strategy was made impossible, Cloud 9 collapsed completely.

DestructoDaveOct 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It absolutely has to do with strategy. When they faced Fnatic last week, they weren't in control of the game, Fnatic was playing better, but Cloud 9's strategy allowed them to be the lesser team because of all the pressure they could put on different lanes.

The other teams started to pick/ban accordingly (mostly banning Azir). Once the strategy was made impossible, Cloud 9 collapsed completely.

Not a single thing they did today had anything to do with strategy. They played like utter shit. Who in their right mind scrying orbs a bush and sees people in it, and then walks by it anyways and gets killed. What support do you know plays aggressive in lane vs a kennen 1on1, at his turret, and gets ganked 4000 miles from any help? What support just randomly checks bush after bush when they have abilities they can use? Then you have Hydra rush Hai, Full AP solo Q elise Hai, you have Sneaky rolling up in lane getting hooked and killed, you have incarnation picking lulu, and of ALL the champions to NOT go tp on, he doesnt go it on lulu. Picks ignite. Vs. TF.

Not to mention, they were dying in lane, solo. They went from winning lanes, to dying in lanes. Esp. Sneaky and Lemon. Honestly, I pin 90% of the problems today on Sneaky and Lemon's play.

Today had nothing to do with strategy, and everything to do with them channeling their inner Unicorns of Love and playing solo Q games. They were just awful games from start to finish. Hell, they didn't even have time to do their strategy; they were too busy dying in the first 3-5 minutes of the game. I mean, watching Hai take that lvl 1 lee sin Q pretty much summed up C9's day in a Microcosm. That one play in that last game, was basically their entire day. YOLO Q.

Those games were played absolutely terrible, and strategy or not, if they played anywhere near that the first day, they would actually have went 0-6. This could be the worst 4 games Sneaky and Lemon has ever played, IMO.

Ale non è maleOct 11, 20151 votes

It has to do with the bad play of the other teams in the group in their first match vs C9 That's the problem, C9 has been really solid with their actual line-up in punishing teams that were playing in an inconsistent way both in NA gauntlet and first 3 games at Worlds, but they succumbed vs better teams. The only thing they can regret, is not ending up in an easier group, as they could have had a chance in group A or D

DestructoDaveOct 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=xHmrLTsN,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-11T15:49:18.320+0000)

It has to do with the bad play of the other teams in the group in their first match vs C9 That's the problem, C9 has been really solid with their actual line-up in punishing teams that were playing in an inconsistent way both in NA gauntlet and first 3 games at Worlds, but they succumbed vs better teams. The only thing they can regret, is not ending up in an easier group, as they could have had a chance in group A or D

No. So, lemme get this straight. Other teams played bad, only way c9 won. But, c9 cant play bad. They just got beat because of their strat. So, you are saying they actually played good today, just their strat was figured out? Is that what you are trying to say? Because it doesn't work like that.

They played like shit. If they played anywhere near this level first day, they would have went 0-6. I mean, it was straight solo Q. I dont think there has been a worse morgana game than Lemon's first game of the day.

You can say its because other teams played bad the first game, but at the same time you ahve to say that c9 played bad today, in their 2nd games. This is not the same c9 that played last week.

Ale non è maleOct 11, 20153 votes

Nope They had the luck to find back to back to back int he first 3 games teams that struggled. Game 1, ahQ was comfortably ahead, then all of a sudden they stopped doing anything and pushing advantages allowing C9 to win bot lane battle and subsequently the game. C9 DESERVED that win, but in the end it was their merit as much as was ahQ throwing away the game Next, they faced iG who was sundly beaten by Fnatic and overall in the tournament have looked kinda of lost Another DESERVED win for C9, but, again, iG was not showing up Game 3, they faced Fnatic that just throw the game vs ahQ, with Huni still tilting, and they hadn't recovered yet Another DESERVED win for C9, but Fnatic once again was far from playing any good

no one is trying to take merit away from C9, but it was clear to anyone that if any other team in the group was playing at their own usual level, C9 was going to lose, and not because of strategy where they are actually good, but on pure playing skills Strategy helped C9 win those first 3 games, for sure, and when other teams figured it out C9 lost their advantage...but in the end, unfortunately for C9, pure skills just came out and C9 succumbed on that

DestructoDaveOct 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=xHmrLTsN,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-11T16:14:08.637+0000)

Nope They had the luck to find back to back to back int he first 3 games teams that struggled. Game 1, ahQ was comfortably ahead, then all of a sudden they stopped doing anything and pushing advantages allowing C9 to win bot lane battle and subsequently the game. C9 DESERVED that win, but in the end it was their merit as much as was ahQ throwing away the game Next, they faced iG who was sundly beaten by Fnatic and overall in the tournament have looked kinda of lost Another DESERVED win for C9, but, again, iG was not showing up Game 3, they faced Fnatic that just throw the game vs ahQ, with Huni still tilting, and they hadn't recovered yet Another DESERVED win for C9, but Fnatic once again was far from playing any good

no one is trying to take merit away from C9, but it was clear to anyone that if any other team in the group was playing at their own usual level, C9 was going to lose, and not because of strategy where they are actually good, but on pure playing skills Strategy helped C9 win those first 3 games, for sure, and when other teams figured it out C9 lost their advantage...but in the end, unfortunately for C9, pure skills just came out and C9 succumbed on that

Nope. All the individual screwups pretty much invalidate that statement. Maybe if all that stupid crap wasnt happening for no reason at all, you would have a point. But it was the equivalent of Arrow face checking that bush for no reason. Just c9 10 times a game today. It wasnt even team fight errors. It was just straight up stupid things, like Lemon's morg.

Ale non è maleOct 11, 20152 votes

It takes 2 to tango, though Other teams step up, put more pressure on C9, so they do more mistakes...and, to further C9 credit, they were also almsot flawless in their first 3 games - and that surpassed the expectations set for them, really - , so it had to be expected to have a bit lower level in the second week...

DestructoDaveOct 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=xHmrLTsN,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-11T16:23:30.122+0000)

It takes 2 to tango, though Other teams step up, put more pressure on C9, so they do more mistakes...and, to further C9 credit, they were also almsot flawless in their first 3 games - and that surpassed the expectations set for them, really - , so it had to be expected to have a bit lower level in the second week...

There is a bit lower level, and then there is what they did today. Esp. Lemon and Sneaky. If anything, they were the most disappointing part of the entire 4 game set. That, and Hai going solo Q mode on all his builds all day, for whatever reason. Not to mention, the ignite lulu pick, all while Sneaky was playing like WIldturtle. Look, they played like shit. Maybe they wouldn't have won a single game today, but the way they played and lost was shit. Honestly, I think they took for granted that they won 3 games the first week. Kind of like Origen did, but at least Origen had TSM to give them a freebie, and they honestly barely got that off them.

Ale non è maleOct 12, 20152 votes

Game 4 you face Rekkles-Yellow though, it's basically a game when C9 doesnt have any advantage in any lane on paper If Fnatic doesn't do big mistakes, they just crush through C9, and that wasn't the game to win for C9 to get through the groups, to be honest They lost it vs iG because they didn't get used to not get an advantage in bot lane like they did vs ahQ and iG in the first week of group stage vs Time

DestructoDaveOct 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=xHmrLTsN,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-12T08:11:48.306+0000)

Game 4 you face Rekkles-Yellow though, it's basically a game when C9 doesnt have any advantage in any lane on paper If Fnatic doesn't do big mistakes, they just crush through C9, and that wasn't the game to win for C9 to get through the groups, to be honest They lost it vs iG because they didn't get used to not get an advantage in bot lane like they did vs ahQ and iG in the first week of group stage vs Time

Honestly, Rekkless and Yellowstar are not great laners. Its been a knock on Yellow; one of his only knocks. Rekkless is a passive player too. He generally just goes even. They are not known for their laning. Lemon and Sneaky did win their lane every game the first week. The 2nd week, I dont think they won a single lane, and thats one of the main reasons they lost. Like I said, in some games, every single lane lost. Those games are over. Doesnt matter if they had Morde/GP/whatever.

Again, thats exactly what i said. They lost lane nearly every game; something they did not do week 1. That had little to do with strategy, and more to do with poor play. Also, there is a diff. in losing lane, and dying in lane. Not only did Lemon and Sneaky lose lane, they died a few times in lane. I pretty much put all the blame for the last week, on Sneaky and Lemon. Incarnation lost a couple lanes, but it wasn't as detrimental as Sneaky/Lemon. And the thing is, Lemon and Sneaky hardly ever play that bad. Thats the key here. They hardly ever lose lane that bad. They generally go even at worst. But they lost lane pretty hard in a few of those games, and died in lane on others. They really under-performed.

Really, Albis and An is probably stronger laners than Rekkless and Yellowstar. Yellow is just not a great laning support. Like his only weakness.

LintheOct 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Again, thats exactly what i said. They lost lane nearly every game; something they did not do week 1. That had little to do with strategy, and more to >do with poor play. Also, there is a diff. in losing lane, and dying in lane. Not only did Lemon and Sneaky lose lane, they died a few times in lane. I >pretty much put all the blame for the last week, on Sneaky and Lemon. Incarnation lost a couple lanes, but it wasn't as detrimental as >Sneaky/Lemon.

100% agreeing with this. I though incarnation had a solid worlds.

Bot lane was the problem. Lemon wasn't a huge surprise for me. He has never been a conistent support. He is just a likely to herp derp something as to make a ridiculous play (hook or bind typically).

Sneaky to me was the big disappointment. I have long felt he was the best ADC in NA. And he just did NOT show up in week 2. But worse than not making plays, he was making BAD plays.

DestructoDaveOct 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

100% agreeing with this. I though incarnation had a solid worlds.

Bot lane was the problem. Lemon wasn't a huge surprise for me. He has never been a conistent support. He is just a likely to herp derp something as to make a ridiculous play (hook or bind typically).

Sneaky to me was the big disappointment. I have long felt he was the best ADC in NA. And he just did NOT show up in week 2. But worse than not making plays, he was making BAD plays.

Exactly. Sneaky was making really bad plays.

Ale non è maleOct 12, 20151 votes

An is bad except when on Jinx pick, and Albis is mediocre to average. Really, to say that they are stronger laners than Rekkles and Yellow make no sense

DestructoDaveOct 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=xHmrLTsN,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-10-12T20:49:15.474+0000)

An is bad except when on Jinx pick, and Albis is mediocre to average. Really, to say that they are stronger laners than Rekkles and Yellow make no sense

I didnt say they were strong laners, I said they are probably as strong as Yellow and Rekkless. Sneaky and Lemon should have been the strongest bot lane in this group, laning wise. You could even say Sneaky is better than Rekkles. He generally beats him when they face each other.

Yellow and Rekkless are not good laners. Its one of the biggest knocks on both of them.

The bot lane was where C9 had the advantage in this group, and when they lose lane to everyone the last week, well you cant expect to win. Thats my point. It literally boiled down to the basics. There isn't much you can do with most or all of your lanes are losing eveyr single game, and your best advantage lane loses every game. I know you want to knock their strategy and all that jazz, but when you are LOSING lane, whatever push strategy they have, has nothing to do with it. Its the equivalent of a plane not even getting off the ground. How are they going to rotate mid when they are getting killed in lane for no reason from checking bushes or walking mindlessly into lane? Its not even outplays; its MISPLAYS. Thats the key issue. Lemon and Sneaky were basically walking MISPLAYS, all 4 games.

Ale non è maleOct 12, 20151 votes

Nah, definitively not Sneaky was the best ADC, but Rekkles-Yellow was the best lane in the group even laning wise, unless Lemon stepped up to S4 level (and I indicated him as key player for C9 performances in the group)

Yellow Rekkles are kinda good laners, it is just they are not as good in lane as they are in the other parts of the game were they are really good

The bot lane is where C9 COULD have gotten the advantage, but it was not something to be taken for granted. ADC on paper were all good (then Kid hugely disappointed, tbh, and An looked impressive only on Jinx really ), and was mainly a battle of supports with Yellow a tier above te others Lemon and Sneaky not being able to win bot lane battle relates with C9 losses, but honestly blame them for not winning vs Rekkles-Yellow which was the best bot lane in the group is kinda of lame.

DestructoDaveOct 12, 20151 votes

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Nah, definitively not Sneaky was the best ADC, but Rekkles-Yellow was the best lane in the group even laning wise, unless Lemon stepped up to S4 level (and I indicated him as key player for C9 performances in the group)

Yellow Rekkles are kinda good laners, it is just they are not as good in lane as they are in the other parts of the game were they are really good

The bot lane is where C9 COULD have gotten the advantage, but it was not something to be taken for granted. ADC on paper were all good (then Kid hugely disappointed, tbh, and An looked impressive only on Jinx really ), and was mainly a battle of supports with Yellow a tier above te others Lemon and Sneaky not being able to win bot lane battle relates with C9 losses, but honestly blame them for not winning vs Rekkles-Yellow which was the best bot lane in the group is kinda of lame.

Its arguable. I dont think Yellow/Rekkless are good laners. They will probably get abused later at worlds. But thats just ONE team. You are focusing on Fnc, when Ahq and IG beat them in lane. IG of all teams. Even if Time was good, Kitties is still garbage. Rekkless/Yellow is not the best. At best, they are even to Sneaky and Lemon. And, they lost off face checks and stupid plays. Did you watch that game? Lemon randomly face checks a bush. Then, to top it off, he decides to play 4 miles up in lane when Sneaky was in base, gets killed for it, and Sneaky gets zoned off like 4 waves of creeps. That is something that should never happen. You should never solo die as a support, in lane. Thats like solo Q stuff.

And that FNC game, again, was ONE game. One game out of the 4 they played. They only needed 1 win. Sneaky and Lemon under-performed and played abysmal in all 4. They lost lane in all 4. They needlessly died in all 4. So even if they got cheesed/played bad/outplayed in the Fnc game, thats one game. They have 2 even weaker bot lanes to beat, and they failed that, too. Not only did they fail to win the lanes, they died in a lot of them. And, they just generally died needlessly around the map in those games, too. And, you could tell by the end, Lemon's pick/ban was tore up too, because they let An have jinx AGAIN, and decided to pick some Fnc all-in comp to deal with her and it failed. Instead of just banning it.

And, it wasnt even the laning. They just played bad overall.

Overall, c9 played like trash, and 90% of it was because of Sneaky and Lemon. If Sneaky and Lemon played like that week 1, Yamatocannon would have been right.

Ale non è maleOct 12, 20151 votes

Lemona/Sneaky are eevn with Yellow/Rekkles only if Lemon is at his best, and yellow outplayed Lemon by sheer skills, with those dodges by just a hair on that game 4 By the way, you are focusing on the wrong person for that game 4 Hai lost game for C9 there where he got killed on that bad play on mid lane, and then Reignover could procede to snowball upon all the lanes from the very first minutes of the game Lemon and Sneaky did some mistake later on the game, or better Febiven/Yellow dodged Morg Q and some skillshot for Sneaky, but game was yet going in Fnatic way and their flaws in the game only amplified and speeded up the defeat

Not banning An was much worse, but Sneaky-Lemon losing that game 4 is, well, kinda of understendable

DestructoDaveOct 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=xHmrLTsN,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000100000002,timestamp=2015-10-12T22:24:13.450+0000)

Lemona/Sneaky are eevn with Yellow/Rekkles only if Lemon is at his best, and yellow outplayed Lemon by sheer skills, with those dodges by just a hair on that game 4 By the way, you are focusing on the wrong person for that game 4 Hai lost game for C9 there where he got killed on that bad play on mid lane, and then Reignover could procede to snowball upon all the lanes from the very first minutes of the game Lemon and Sneaky did some mistake later on the game, or better Febiven/Yellow dodged Morg Q and some skillshot for Sneaky, but game was yet going in Fnatic way and their flaws in the game only amplified and speeded up the defeat

Not banning An was much worse, but Sneaky-Lemon losing that game 4 is, well, kinda of understendable

Lemon died 2 times in the top lane, without any jungle pressure at all. He just died twice for no reason. I dont think Hai cost them that game. Incarnation was running tp, so he didn't lose anything. The number one thing that cost them that game, was Lemon's 2nd death, where he died solo in lane, and it caused Sneaky to get zoned completely off like 4 waves of Creeps.

But again, thats one game out of 4. But those kind of Lemon and Sneaky errors happened in every one of them. They took such risky paths to places. Sneaky died 2-3 times just because of his pathing alone. So did lemon.

Ale non è maleOct 12, 20151 votes

Balls was doing realtively fine vs Huni in that game, but once Reignover started to roll over, he could go on gankin repeteadly bot to shut down him too, and thus C9 ended up turing two lanes that could be tied in a complete disadvantage And Lemon first death is worse than second one, tbh, he can use that Q to face check brush

DestructoDaveOct 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=xHmrLTsN,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000100000004,timestamp=2015-10-12T23:09:09.966+0000)

Balls was doing realtively fine vs Huni in that game, but once Reignover started to roll over, he could go on gankin repeteadly bot to shut down him too, and thus C9 ended up turing two lanes that could be tied in a complete disadvantage And Lemon first death is worse than second one, tbh, he can use that Q to face check brush

The first one didn't cost Sneaky the entire lane. The 2nd death let them proxy sneaky clean off the turret for like 4 waves. I honestly cant remember the last time I saw a support die solo in a lane like that, except in my solo Q games. The first death was bad and stupid, but at least Sneaky could still lane. He couldn't even get in xp range after the 2nd one.

ElegantDogeOct 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Has nothing to do with strategy, and everything to do with incredibly poor play. They are just straight up getting beat down in the laning phase, because of poor play overall. Esp. from Sneaky and Lemon. The amount of times they just died for nothing those 2 games is rediculous.

It was BOTH strategy and poor plays that made them go 0-4. They basically used the same thing over and over again.

DestructoDaveOct 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It was BOTH strategy and poor plays that made them go 0-4. They basically used the same thing over and over again.

No. Look, if there is one thing constant in this game, its that its almost impossible to win if all your lanes are losing. I dont care what kind of strategy you run. They never even had a chance to TRY their strategy, because they were down 2-3k gold in the first 10 minutes of the game.

The main difference between this week and last week is simple. Last week, Sneaky and Incarnation won their lane every single time. Hell, in the Fnc game, even Balls won his lane. So that was 3 lanes winning in that game. Incarnation lost lane twice today, and the only lane he even REALLY won, was on a lulu where he chose ignite of all summoners and had no impact on the game. Then, Sneaky and Lemon honestly lost every single lane today. Couple that with the fact balls was still losing lane like week 1, and Hai is always behind in the jungle anyways, and exactly how are you going to win those games? Strategy or not, it really boiled down to simple terrible play. You can't execute anything when your entire team is losing their lanes and down 2-3k gold before you even have an chance to do anything. I guess at least Incarnation won his lane a couple times.

Sneaky and Lemon were the biggest disappointments. I know you guys want to parrot what the analyst desk was saying about a single strategy, but its really a moot point when every lane on the team lost in most of the games. It doesnt even matter if they had another strategy, or even how good their first one was. IT was over before it even mattered.

T RexHasTinyArmsOct 11, 20151 votes

To be fair, Balls lost lane pretty hard EVERY SINGLE GAME last week and they managed to win 3-0. While they played worse this week it also has to do w/ strategy. Their advantage in terms of strategy and objective pressure last week was enough to overcome weaker play by their team in many roles, but this week their play was too weak to be made up for by their strategy.

the 3-0 from C9 wasn't so impressive bc they came out and everyone realized they had become gods at this game overnight, but because while a lane or two would do well they were winning at worlds in spite of difficulties at particular positions. The vast majority of teams in this tournament wouldn't have won more than 1 game week 1 let alone all 3 if they had a top laner down 20-40 cs every game at 10 minutes and a jungle who didn't even manage to blow a flash w/ lee sin pre 6. That's what made week 1 so impressive and week 2 such a let down, their strategy advantage didn't overcome their play disadvantage this week like it did the first one.