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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 5

RiotMeddler··1 votes·166,054 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Some things we'll be looking at in 8.21

Not a comprehensive list, but a few champs we already know we'll be looking at in 8.21:

  • Kai'Sa nerf - One direction is giving her clearer weaknesses. Another is making her upgrades a bit harder to unlock, given the original intent wasn't that she'd unlock all 3 this reliably.
  • Tank Pyke nerf - While keeping AD Pyke around its current power level. Potentially involves some degree of kit effect changes (e.g. modifying the HP -> AD effect on his passive plus additional scaling changes?)
  • Corki buff - Didn't make it into 8.20, aiming to have it in 8.21 as a result.

OMW Ping improvements in 8.21

We should also have some improvements to the OMW pings in 8.21. The big change is that the sound of the pings themselves will now communicate a couple of extra pieces of info:

  1. Processing applied to the sound will represent distance between the user of the ping and the pinged location. The further that distance, the more echo there'll be. Basically it's a representation of how long it'll take the pinging player to get there.
  2. The further the ping is from the listening player the quieter the ping will be played. If someone's pinging that they're on the way to your lane, you'll hear a loud ping. If they're pinging they're on their way to the other side of the map, it'll be comparatively quiet.

We'll also be putting a chat notification of the OMW ping being used back in team chat. Looks like that got accidentally broken at some point when this approach was being developed.


Why we don't use adaptive effects in game

Since we added both adaptive damage and adaptive stats to the pre-game with Runes the question's naturally been raised as to why we're not using them in game as well. Things like why not have items just grant Adaptive AP/AD so more champs can use them, or having damage on champ abilities or from items change types to be more optimal all the time. Some thoughts on why we haven't been doing that below.

  • Adaptive Damage

By which we mean damage that can change its type. Easy example being Arcane Comet, which deals magic damage when you're building AP and physical damage when you're building AD. With Runes we were almost always aiming to design effects that could be added on to any damage pattern. Offering the damage type that would make sense with the sort of pen you were likely to build was more appropriate as a result. That also means it's easier to pick defensive options against a specific champion, since their pregame damage contributions will generally be matching their kit damage type.

For in game effects by contrast our concern is that adaptive damage makes it much harder to predict what sort of damage you'll be facing and therefore purchase/play against it. LoL's got a lot of champ abilities and other damage sources already to understand/track, so making it so you also need to assess someone's build all the time to understand whether an ability has flipped damage type is something we generally want to avoid. Possible we might make the occasional exception, especially if it's a strong fit with a champion's theme and really well communicated through art/audio etc, but even then would expect it to be a rare thing if done at all.

  • Adaptive Stats on items etc (or abilities that scale with either stat)

As in stats that just give you whichever you scale best with of AP/AD/whatever. Again with Runes we wanted things to be really open, particularly to avoid having to make additional runes that were basically just duplicates with different scaling. With items by contrast there are quite a lot of cases where limiting the pool of users can be really important, particularly from a game health perspective. Which stats an item offers is a really good way to skew its value towards different users it's intended to serve well (e.g. pushing Zhonya's towards primarily mages and other heavy AP users, or skewing Black Cleaver towards health so we can keep it in a good spot for juggernauts and other tankier fighters). Additionally items changing which stats they offer also contributes to difficulty understanding and reacting to enemy damage output, especially if it flips back and forth during the game. We've been very hesitant about adaptive stats in game as a result, given the degree to which that would privilege offense over defense, unless making defensive stats adaptive as well. There are some cases where it might be a useful tool (e.g. opening up the Spellthief's line to AD users). Possible we do use it a bit in circumstances like that at some point, also might just solve the issue in other ways though (offering other power rather than AD or AP specifically).

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

356 Comments

Harambe63 votes

STOP IGNORING WUKONG..... FIX HIM... Revert the nerfs, you guys already nerfed Items and Runes he didn't deserve actual ability nerfs he's been unchanged for over 6 seasons now. The Items and Nerfs were the problems you guys did the monkey dirty. FIX WUKONG. GIVE HIM ATTENTION ALREADY STOP IGNORING

KÍNGKØNG76 votes

There are many reasons Wukong needs a straight up rework, so ill put it in an organised list:

Passive - Wukong's passive is incredibly boring and dull, it basically gives you MR and Armour depending on the amount of champions in Wukong's vicinity. It has no interactivity and it is bad, nobody even thinks about this passive when they are playing the game. At max level, the passive gives 40 MR and Armour when surrounded by 5 enemy champions. Sounds good right? NO. This passive gives absolutely no benefit to Wukong because of the way his kit is built.

Role - What is Wukong? Is he a tank? An assassin? A bruiser? I have over 1 million Mastery points and have hit Master multiple times and I still have no idea. 99% of games building full AD is the only option, as building tank items means you have no damage, whereas champions like darius/renekton/irelia can build tank items and still be a massive damage threat. Also, even though Wukong has a garbage 'tank' passive, his natural bulk is incredibly low in comparison to other champions who fill his 'role'. This makes you a "one shot the ADC" champion which other champions who build semi-tank can do too.

Laning Phase - Oh boy, this is the one that makes me SO salty. Despite popular belief at low elo, Wukongs laning phase is UTTER TRASH. Almost every top lane matchup is "try to farm and go neutral so you can do something after laning phase". Its boring, Wukongs kit doesn't have the skill factor that champions like Riven and Fiora have, which leaves you NO room to outplay your counters. Lets take Darius for example, a classic Wukong counter. To trade with Wukong you need to put yourself inside enemy minions with your E, and to avoid taking damage back you press W. But wait a minute, Darius just pressed E, what do you do now? NOTHING, there is nothing you can do, you are truly fucked because you dared to hit your opponent and you have nothing left in your kit. This isn't just a problem with the Darius matchup, almost all of Wukongs counters are like this (which is 90% of top laners).

Damage Types/Resistances - Almost every champion in the top lane has some form of %HP DMG/TrueDMG/MixedDMG. Wukong only has physical damage. You could argue that his clone deals magic damage when it expires, but its so negligible its not even funny. Why is this a problem you ask? Because every motherfucker instant counters Wukong now by just building Tabis or some other basic armour item. This is such an annoyance I cant even begin to explain. Are you laning against Irelia, a classic Wukong counter AND outplaying her? Well guess what monkey, she just built Tabis and now she does more damage than you, has more cc than you, deals true damage, has more mobility than you, and more tankiness than you GL HF. "Well then why don't you build Tabis on Wukong?" you ask, let me tell you why. Wukong has shitty base damage, zero sustain, one damage type, and shitty base bulk. If he builds Tabis or another armour item, you are basically crippling yourself even harder because the enemy STILL has mixed damage types and higher base stats.

Jungle - A lot of you are probably wondering "You could avoid all of these problems by jungling!". Wukong has trash jungle clear, he has hardly any AoE and as I stated earlier, his base damage and tankiness is BAD. The only way to have a remotely healthy jungle clear is to take clone second so you can clear the camps, but even then its so slow its unbearable. By the time you have cleared 3 camps, the enemy has either cleared his jungle and done 1-3 ganks, or they have cleared their jungle and invaded you and now you are dead (if you play lee sin you are insecure).

Clone - This spell has so much potential, but it is so dated. Right now, your clones only usefulness is the THREAT of using it, i'm sure you all know the classic "S stop" where you press S and pretend you have cloned. The problem with this is anyone who knows Wukong can actually see the difference between an S stop and an actual clone, when you clone its a lot more choppy. The only way to fool anyone with it is by running into a bush and using S stop at the edge so they cant see you stop. However, the higher elo you go, the less this trick works. The clone itself is pretty useless above D5, the only useful aspect of this ability is the 1.5 second stealth so you can reset duskblade proc. In fact, i'm certain if you just removed the whole clone and made this ability a stealth ability it would be just as good. That sucks, because a clone sounds like it could be super fun to play around with. For example, what if you could trade places with a clone that you set down, or what if the clone used Wukong's E at the end of the duration instead of just uselessly spinning around and disappearing.

Ultimate - Whilst Wukong's ultimate is pretty good, it does not match the rest of his kit. You give him 3 basic assassin abilities, then you give him a team fight ultimate? Also, your ultimate's base damage is 20 (lol), which means if you don't build AD, you will be like a mosquito buzzing around in a team fight. Also, the tick rate of this ability has screwed me over so many times it makes me want to cry. When you ult, enemies can literally DASH THROUGH YOUR ULTIMATE without being knocked up, the biggest offender being Fizz Q and Irelia dash.

Solution The best solution to these problems would be a rework. I honestly would not mind a full scale rework, maybe moving Wukong into more of a top lane bruiser role that has a lot of interactivity with his clones. You could also remove his current ult and give him something like a powered up mode (yes, like SSJ from dragon ball).

Strong Tomato6 votes

Also, your ultimate's base damage is 20 (lol), which means if you don't build AD, you will be like a mosquito buzzing around in a team fight.

I agree with most, but not with this. His ult may have low base damage, but it has total AD ratio which means the actual base damage of Wukong's ult is 20+110% base AD so at lvl 6 that's 104 base damage per second.

Wukong Airlines16 votes

It's funny Meddler answers all the questions about other champs and proceeds to ignore the fuck outta Wukong.

You're bringing a whole new level of disrespect and bullshit to an entire champ fan-base.

JMoormann12 votes

Or he just doesn't have a good answer to the questions right now

Squeezitor9113 votes

Why are all the Wukong players in these threads such insufferable asses?

Côco Atrevido14 votes

Hey Meddler, hope ur doing fine.

Is it possible for the Lissandra new passive show up in the next PBE cycle?

Is the colorful mage getting close or will it be revealed closer to the end of the year? Cheers

RiotMeddler20 votes

Lissandra - no, won't be this cycle. My apologies this is taking so long, in retrospect I should have handed it off to someone else when I took on my new role. Currently working on revised visual effects for the statues, they're getting lost too much in team fights which means it's hard to appreciate their value as Lissandra or play around them as enemies. Also looking at whether or not they're currently contributing enough even when spotted, hard to disentangle the two issues at times though.

New champs - there's always a new champ getting closer. In terms of helpful details, no, I'll leave the teasing of those to the champion team.

Adalvar3 votes

Have you considered simply bumping the dmg/slow of the statue explosion so that they can act as a genuine threat?

RiotMeddler10 votes

Got those pretty high right now. Some of the issue is that they're often just not in relevant positions (team fight moved, no other enemies around etc). Some of it seems to be that they are contributing, but it's not getting well noticed, hence the focus on clarity first, then possible mechanics changes.

Sir Nope14 votes

You mention clearer weaknesses for Kai'sa. What are Kai'sa's intended weaknesses?

RiotMeddler19 votes

These are all relative to other marksmen.

Primary weaknesses intended:

  • Low range (has to take more risk to deal damage both in lane and afterwards)
  • Soft lane
  • Item reliant

Secondary weaknesses:

  • Low utility/no CC
  • Low AOE damage against champions
warpenguin55554 votes

I don't know if this is possible, but I think it would be cool to see a list of what each champions intended strengths and weaknesses are.

Poluact6 votes

Low AOE damage against champions

Wait, what? Her Q is AoE and Runaan applies her passive to 3 targets (and her passive deals a lot of damage).

whisperingsage15 votes

Considering Vayne can't stack silver bolts on multiple targets, and right now Kai'Sa is just a better Vayne in a lot of ways, making her passive only stack on a single target at a time would be an easy way to reduce her aoe.

Daddy Ants6 votes

{quoted}

Considering Vayne can't stack silver bolts on multiple targets, and right now Kai'Sa is just a better Vayne in a lot of ways, making her passive only stack on a single target at a time would be an easy way to reduce her aoe.

Indeed.

Runaan's not stacking her passive is a good way to reduce her AOE.

rtbf2256182414 votes

Ok so when she gets her items and out of the laning phase, her primary champion weakness is...low range? What? So unless you one-shot her or pin her down with cc, you're pretty much screwed?

Vayne also has similarily low range but her kit is heavily reliant on mobility and her E (+stealth). Her primary weakness is low damage without procing her W, as far as i can tell. I don't find Kai'Sa range THAT low to begin with. Her Q range is low yes but not her passive and basic attacks.

Śhunpo13 votes

Hmm, I feel like Shaco 's Two-Shiv Poison would be THE perfect candidate for adaptive damage. AP Shaco is pretty much dead primarily due to E continuing to do physical damage even with a large amount of AP, forcing Shaco to pick up Lethality/Armor pen. (?) in order for his E to do any amount of relevant damage.

Thoughts?

BobaFlautist12 votes

{quoted}

I think I mentioned this in the last one, I don't know whether or not this data exists but it would be super cool to see data on how the win percentage of a given champion correlates with the opposing team's average games played against that champion (E.G. Yi's winrate goes from 70%-30% as the other team's average games played against Yi go from 0-100, whereas for Galio it stays relatively flatter from 57%-43%).

It would really give some context as to whether champions new to the meta or rarely played really are that strong, or if they're getting a statistical advantage by being unfamiliar to their opponents, and would also help me decide whether or not to practice counterplay against a given champ.

RiotMeddler23 votes

Hmm, lemme see if that's data we can easily pull and share or not. No promises, but agree it's a good question.

RiotMeddler10 votes

Sounds like it's probably something that would need some dedicated work, so I'd prefer not to pull people off their existing priorities. Will certainly share if available at some point though.

Turtle Lord11 votes

Hi i made a discussion post about an idea and i kinda just want to put it here cause i hope more people would see the suggestion: to be able to use space bar to accept queues (i.e. ranked and drafted pick) I feel like its the same efficient as using a mouse. I don t see why it would be bad. and i had a response to my post and i added this anecdote as a way for it to make sense or relate to people, the person mentioned it would be an unnecessary addition but i said "i dont think its unnecessary at all, i feel like everyone has a moment when they think they can go do something really quick while in queue then try to rush back to their computer and frantically find the cursor and try to accept it, i believe it would be like 3 times less complicated with just smashing the space bar. its a very conscious act so i dont know why you think its unnecessary, but you know if it is please explain lol" so i hope someone sees this and thank you reading!

RiotMeddler10 votes

Idea sounds good to me, I wouldn't prioritize coding time on it though unless it was extremely easy to implement (that's time being taken from other projects). I'll ping someone just in case it's really straightforwards though, I'm no engineer so can't give a reliable estimate myself.

Adalvar10 votes

Ok, so new question...with the Ezreal rework almost out the door, what are the short term likely candidates to these mini-reworks?

Also will we see Lissandra's passive next PBE cvcle?

RiotMeddler12 votes

We'll see how Ezreal lands, in particular what the response from players is like in terms of feedback, engagement etc, before hard committing to more like this. Blitzcrank's the champ who comes to mind for me as a strong candidate, that's just personal opinion though, we haven't come to a consensus yet.

Wolfeur8 votes

If by any chance you do a Blitz small VGU, I'd have one request: keep the grab's sound effect. It's too iconic and recognizable to remove.

warpenguin55510 votes

What happened to the anti shield item and 5th elemental drake?

RiotMeddler11 votes

Genuine question, do shields feel overbearing to you at present? My inclination's that a systemic shield counter's not currently something that would be good for the game, we're not seeing people surviving too long due to excessive shielding as an issue, the occasional exception for self shielding tanks perhaps.

5th elemental drake - would still like to someday, it's super far down the priority list versus things like game pacing, snowball etc, hence the focus on those in preseason.

warpenguin55514 votes

Shields don't feel too overbearing imo, I just randomly remembered both of the things I mentioned above somewhat recently and was curious about what happened to them.

Thanks for the response!

Kagusutchi10 votes

Hey Meddler, first of all thanks for sharing your thoughts with us again !

I wanted to talk about a few things :

  1. Kai'sa : First, as far as I am concerned her upgrades aren't really the problem. I think you should give her a real weakness during the laning phase, according to me she doesn't have any real counter to make her struggle to get her first items.

  2. Colorful Mage : Please Meddler, tell us anything about it !

Ninetales8 votes

Hey Meddler,

As it's been over a month now, any updates on how Riot feels about the Yorick changes?

His winrate is diamond is looking pretty grim compared to what it was and he's still maintaining his low elo dominating status.

MinDanny8 votes

Personally, I think one of the best Kai-sa nerfs would be to make it so the shield value from the Ult scales on the distance she travels.

I think you should incentive her to dive more than to use the ult as a mini-hop to re-position while getting a large shield out of it.

It feels especially bad when you get on her as anyone, and she gets away from your range** while obtaining a big shield**.

DuskBolt4 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I think one of the best Kai-sa nerfs would be to make it so the shield value from the Ult scales on the distance she travels.

I think you should incentive her to dive more than to use the ult as a mini-hop to re-position while getting a large shield out of it.

It feels especially bad when you get on her as a diver, and she gets away from your range** while obtaining a big shield**.

As someone who's been abusing Kai'Sa quite a bit, I could definitely see that as a decent nerf that would give her a clear weakness while also maintaining some sort of outplay potential in her kit. That, coupled with making her upgrades a little harder to reach, while potentially reverting some of her previous nerfs might make her in a decent spot where she's playable but not the top ADC pick 9/10 games.

The Fake Shaco7 votes

I'll keep it brief this time.

Can I get a comment on if the removal of Shaco boxes immunity to cc being removed was intentional? Or, their AI as well?

RiotMeddler7 votes

Which patch did it happen in? I'll check with the team.

And thank you for brief, makes it more likely I can respond.

Scarthcaroth7 votes

I feel obliged to chime in on the tank Pyke directions. Generally I am a fan of pushing him towards his intended role as an assassin that can function as a support but I'm going to say, changing the HP->AD scaling is not going to do very much. Tank Pyke builds are quite low on HP based tank items. At most there's going to be the upgraded sightstone and maybe, every now and then, a spiritvisage.

Far more often, however, the effectiveness of tank Pyke is a result of heavy resistance stacking. Aftershock, Frozen Heart, Zeke's... Simply adjusting the conversion ratio will not have much of an effect in that regard.

RiotMeddler7 votes

Might not involve changing the HP -> AD ratio, but instead replacing it with something with a similar purpose. Example of that (just an example, we don't have anything in testing yet) being something like 'Pyke gets X% less stats from HP, Armor, MR and Y% more stats from AD' or something similar.

Frosted Tips7 votes

A few questions:

  1. So will the AP fighter items start becoming a higher priority soon or not?
  2. Still no fix to Zyra plants? When will those happen?
  3. Can we get a Diana vs Leona Versus Event?
Salvor Hardın5 votes

I attach the commentary on Rek Sai from the last post, in case you didn't see it.

[{quoted}](name=Salvor Hardın,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=AENqRo6N,comment-id=00190000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-03T16:49:38.647+0000)

It cost me! But I found it.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/f1s2Kk7r-quick-gameplay-thoughts-september-12

Rek'Sai A while back I mentioned we were looking at Rek'Sai buffs which never ended up happening. Wanted to share a bit of context as to why since I see them getting asked about a fair bit still. At time of mention our assessment was Rek'Sai was underperforming across the board, so we had room to add some straight power to her. Looking into things a bit deeper though we realized she was performing quite well at higher MMR already and that straight buffs would be inappropriate. She does have a fairly steep learning curve, and underperforms at low/average MMR though, so will feel weak to quite a lot of players. Would like to do some work to smooth out her early accessibility a bit as a result, that's a much larger task though than just adding power so it didn't fit within the time we had allocated. Expect we'll come back to her at some point, not sure on when though.

atlıkarınca5 votes

Hi Meddler. Is the peacock champion Reav3 talking about real? (Ask Riot: 100th edition)

RiotMeddler8 votes

No, that video and most responses to it are more jokey than serious. I'd also argue we hit the theme of peacock at least with Rakan last year!

Quixaphid9 votes

Any chance we get Turkey Xayah skin for Thanksgiving?

ROX Peanut5 votes

Any plans for Shyvana? Shes is in a pretty weak spot for quite some time already.

It would be quite nice if her ult would drag enemies the whole distance and not only 100ish range.

i got big sad4 votes

Hey Meddler, Been a while since I heard you talk about this, but do you have any plans for Zac? He's been in a pretty awful spot balance-wise for a solid 5 patches at least. Our friendly Goo Guy could definitely use a little push to be playable at the very least. Thanks for any response!

Elewd4 votes

anything on Zyra? as much as i love burstmage zyra i'd love to play zoning/control Zyra again...

Kimmie Possible4 votes

I'd just love to play non-bugged zyra again tbh ....

Tik1153 votes

Question in regards to your previous post about nerfing Eve because "She can delete squsihies too easilly without Charm" What is the thought patten for nerfing this meanwhile other Assassins which have those "invise insta-delete" kind of deals don't get touched? (Rengar Khazix Talon ) Some of them (Specifically Rengar) Can pop a squsihy with only a slight indicator similar to her so whats the deal?.

You already front loaded so much into this delayed damage philosophy (Which its pretty clear you've now discarded) so why go back to trying to enforce it on just one champion?

Lets have shrex3 votes

Hey Meddler are you single ? I'm interested in you and would like to go on a date please

TopperH2 votes

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champions/

So Kai'sa dropped at barely 50% winrate after the lastest nerf and she is getting nerfed AGAIN.

Meanwhile MF, Draven, Lucian, Twitch, Sivir, Jhin are all at >52% winrate, not to mention the more exotic picks like Heimer, Swain, Yasuo, all outperforming her. And it's Kai'Sa that gets the nerf bat AGAIN.

I just started playing the game again after taking a break because of the atrocious 8.11 patch, and you are making me want to stop playing again.

MikuSan6 votes

Winrates dont mean everything, and look at the pickrates for all those champions, literally only mains are playing champions like sivir and twitch.

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