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Some gameplay work in progress, general gameplay thoughts (10/20/2015)

RiotMeddler··192 votes·136,283 views

Hi all!

Wanted to share a few of our thoughts on where we're up to on some currently topical gameplay stuff. Trying out a different approach here with just quick updates on a number of topics rather than a focus on a couple of things (feedback on that much appreciated!).

The Preseason:

  • We've been putting a lot of work into updates for the upcoming preseason patch over the last couple of months, with changes to champions, items, vision etc. We're getting very close to putting that stuff on PBE (all going according to plan).

Kindred:

  • Kindred have been out for about a week now and we're starting to see players get to grips with their kit. So far we've been really happy with the state of their release balance, so 5.21 won't contain any buffs or nerfs, just some bug fixes. Really interested to see where they end up over the next couple of patches, there's some definite learning curve there and we're also seeing people experiment with them in a range of positions with a mix of success and failure.

Mordekaiser:

  • Morde's a pretty topical dude at the moment. Our belief is that he's too strong in a duo lane, despite previous nerfs, so we're going to be reducing the amount of bonus XP he gets from his W in 5.21. Our hope is that that will then give us some room to buff his base stats, bringing his solo laning closer to his duo lane performance. That's something we'll likely do as a follow up change though (potentially in 5.22), once we've got a read on what the impact of the XP reduction was.

  • Thematic side note for anyone that's interested and hadn't already heard - we'll also be changing his title to 'The Iron Revenant' rather than the previous 'Lord of Death' (Iron Revenant being a player suggested title update that we felt did a great job of merging different thematic elements from Morde).

Poppy

  • Works heavily underway on Poppy. She'll be the next really big champion update that goes out (Sion/GP sort of scale, so full overhaul of abilities, visuals, voice etc). Her E's the only ability effectively ported over from her old kit, feel we're going for's still very much small, noble, determined warrior who smacks others around with a large hammer.

World Champs

  • Worlds has been getting a lot of attention for the Gameplay teams of course. We've been really enjoying the diversity of picks in some positions (mid lane especially), though are seeing that some others could do with more help (jungle for example). Some outlier champions that definitely seem too strong (Morde, GP, Darius etc), some of whom we've already nerfed post 5.18, some of which we've got stuff underway for. A number of champions too that we don't yet have plans for, but are keeping a really close eye on and talking about quite a bit (Tahm Kench for example).

Upcoming Champs

  • We've had a couple of trends with new champions recently that have helped opened up new gameplay space (non damage utility ults) and thematic space (creatures of myth). We've been pretty happy with how those explorations have gone, we don't have to overdo them though. Next set of champs we've got underway are going for a bit of contrast with that as a result, with a few more damage/combat focused ults and characters who are somewhat more a part of the regular world of Runeterra.

General Balance Changes

  • Since a lot's going to change in the upcoming preseason patch we're generally holding off on smaller balance changes for a little bit, given which characters are a bit too weak or a bit too strong could change significantly in the near future due to systemic changes.

632 Comments

Deep Terror Nami70 votes

Pretty cool that the player suggested title for Morde is what's being used. That guy must be like http://static2.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_super/1551/15516851/2941772-lfs21.png

I "see" that you mention vision as being part of your focus. As a supp main, I'm really interested in that. I started playing in season 4, so didn't actually ever play without the trinkets (I may have at low level, but with so much on my plate there's no way I'd remember).

kitcat3003 votes

One potential change I have heard talked about was further upgrades for the sightstone. I don't know if they are going through with it though because they have also said they don't want the item to be efficient on all classes.

RiotMeddler60 votes

Sightstone upgrades will be part of the changes. Intent is to still keep those in a position where they're generally more appealing on supports than other classes though.

Blue Moon Wolf5 votes

sightstone upgrades you say? http://cdn.memepix.com/images/large/r7OOc.jpg

Meep Man45 votes

It would be really cool if, like, every 3-4 patches, we got one of these to update the player base on Riot's current focuses and priorities. I guarantee it would lessen complaints and make the forum a much more productive place as well as let players have a sort of "sigh of relief" to know ______is being looked at or something is happening.

RiotMeddler53 votes

I'm also interested in finding something along those sort of lines. Still trying to figure out exact format, frequency, style etc, with this post as one test of what works for people versus what doesn't.

Mârty27 votes
  • Traditional supports (nami, sona, soraka, etc. (janna excluded)) have been ignored lately in competitive and in solo queue in favour of tank/kill/pick supports (braum/thresh/ali/morgana/bard etc.)

The reason for this, from my experience in semi-pro play and solo queue, is that traditional supports (excluding Janna) are unable to win the vision game for their team, because a soraka/sona/nami running around dropping wards in the jungle is a free kill to a thresh/braum/ali/morg/bard, as they'll catch them out with their easy CC and those traditional supports don't have any real escapes to allow them to ward safely.

Personally, I don't think traditional supports will be played competitively until this issue specifically is addressed in some way. I can't pick Nami competitively because I'm essentially telling my team that I can't do much for us in terms of vision, for fear of running into a tank engage/pick support. Is there any insight on how to alleviate the burden of instantly losing the vision game if you choose to pick a traditional support?

  • Janna was nerfed before Worlds because she's a champion whose existence, as Riot have stated in the past, prevents things from happening in game. i.e., "We can't really engage here because that Janna will just disengage". As a result, her kit was toned down before worlds.

Why is Tahm Kench, a champion who arguably is even more of an annoyance in this case (We can't land our single target pick because that tahm will just eat them and run away), then allowed to run around in competitive play?

Linna Excel25 votes

Meddler, can you or one of the other members of the balance team please do a post every now and then? It'd be nice to see what you guys are working on so we can apply feedback in that direction.

Why not keep keep poppy's old Q? It was a bread and butter skill that helped her if she wanted to go anti-tank.

Another question, are ADCs going to have more varied build paths next season? Right now it's basically the same thing for all of them.

RiotMeddler16 votes

More build paths for ADCs is one of our hopes.

Poppy's Q is a very functional spell, but we felt there was opportunity to shift to something with more play and interest to it.

Jeddy0172 votes

I'm guessing the reason for the Q change is because you're shifting her to being a tank rather than the bursty fighter (assassin?) she was before.I recall you told me that she is going to be more tank centric after her update.

RiotMeddler15 votes

Yeah, she'll be more focused at controlling a fight and fighting people over longer periods over time than exploding a dude really quickly.

Saphixia2 votes

so does this mean my devastating runeglaive guinsoo hextech is going to be ruined? and also will her ult be atleast similair? i really like it atm as it provides i very unique mechanic that does involve lots of math

Jeddy01712 votes

You mean the extremely toxic ult that allow her to fuck the carries with no way of fighting back because she use her ult on the support? Better get ready to say your goodbyes to it & eveything else in her kit besides her E.

Linna Excel6 votes

Thank you for the reply.

Backup4now25 votes

{quoted} Mordekaiser:

  • Morde's a pretty topical dude at the moment. Our belief is that he's too strong in a duo lane, despite previous nerfs, so we're going to be reducing the amount of bonus XP he gets from his W in 5.21. Our hope is that that will then give us some room to buff his base stats, bringing his solo laning closer to his duo lane performance. That's something we'll likely do as a follow up change though (potentially in 5.22), once we've got a read on what the impact of the XP reduction was.

Or... You know... REMOVE IT. Just remove the damn thing and put power everywhere else in his kit, it's a dumb mechanic anyways. His w is really lack luster past the early game/non ap, it would be worthless without the xp boost. Remove the xp boost, put actual good scaling damage on his w, bam. Also fix the weird range on it, he can auto things but w will be out of range sometimes (try it on gromp).

PUMPZILLA14 votes

Take the XP bonus away, let his W do damage without having to be right on top of his W target. I just miss his old W, buffing himself or minions, giving resists that makes sense because he's literally throwing metal ghost armor on the target.

Crys3s20 votes

Thank you for the communication Meddler - always love to see these updates.

Posts like this are very meaningful to the community, just like taking the suggestion for the morde title. Would have been nice if the feedback mechanism would have been to hold an idea thread hosted by a rioter as opposed to simply monitoring threads. As players we will always provide feedback and when you guys write things like this and take the helm it makes digesting changes easier and encourages better feedback. Otherwise we feel like we are just wandering around in the dark yelling at nothing!

Cheers

RedCyclone12 votes

Question

I don't see Sona... WHERE IS SONA IN THIS? SONA'S GOTTA BE IN THIS!

Edit - Aww come on...second round of posting and you dodged it :<

Naut10 votes

A couple questions: 0. Do you have any plans, now or in the future, to rework or remove crit?

  1. Do you think that mana conservation and MANAgement (sorry) are good game mechanics, and should be revisited?
  2. How do you feel about the state of energy and resourceless champions in terms of lane prowess and the ability to stay out of base?
  3. Do you think the overprevalence of mobility in lane (Yasuo, Kindred, Kalista) pushes out low mobility champs, and if so, what thoughts do you have on bringing low mobility champs back into favor?

Thank you for your time, Pope Charles IV

RiotMeddler19 votes

Crit's definitely got some issues (feeling screwed by RNG when you did everything right especially), so at some point we do want to do some work on it. It does add some variance and risk to otherwise extremely reliable, consistent actions (right clicking/getting right clicked) though, and LoL's arguably a little too predictable at times at present. We don't want to simply replace it with a guaranteed damage multiplier as a result and, whenever we do work on it, would want to bundle that with some other systemic changes.

I feel mana management's a useful lever to have, both in terms of the control it offers over champion power at various points in the game and as an expression of player skill. Having said that I don't feel that all characters should be mana gated equally. Some melee should arguably be gated in lane, but free to use spells generally on CD later in the game, given the challenges they have getting onto targets. Other long range characters, or healers, by contrast should generally have significant costs throughout the game.

Resourceless characters and energy users are both types of champion I feel have a good place in the game in terms of the different playstyles, pacings (in lane and after) and abilities designs they allow. I do believe it's healthy to have mana as the default resource however, with occasional exceptions and we'll be going through a period of new champions who consistently use mana for a while (last non mana user was Rek'Sai, next 4 upcoming champions at least will probably all use mana).

I believe it's very possible for high and low mobility champions to coexist in lanes, I don't think we've always given lower mobility champions sufficient compensation for the low mobility price they pay however. Being a low mobility champ should allow you to get access to some pretty powerful stuff that wouldn't be appropriate on champs with dashes/blinks etc. Kog'Maw and Anivia are good examples to me of where that's been done right, with both of them being options that more mobile marksmen/mages respectively don't offer.

Nagma10 votes

I cant belive you didnt even mention cassiopeia ,seriously , she is the urgot 2.0 trash af , cancer gameplay , unfun , theme issues , troll numbers , little player base getting opressed because they are a minority , and on the top of all its been 1 year that her rework still hasn't met its goals and its been a entire season that you ignore cassio threads ( on purpose i guess because you cant miss them , they are done every weeks and the most of the time in front page . °) °seriously when will you stop ignoring cassiopeia and moving on like nothing happened ?

RiotMeddler21 votes

Speaking frankly about Cass:

  • We don't believe Cass is in a good state post rework.
  • We also don't believe pre-rework Cass was in a good state either.
  • We would like to do some work (scale unknown, though extremely unlikely to be a full scale rework) on Cass next year.
  • How that work will be prioritized hasn't been determined yet. There are a number of other projects it'd have to be traded off against on either the Live Gameplay (balance) team or the Champion Update (reworks) team (projects like Ryze, Azir, Taric, Yorick etc).
  • Even if we do do work on Cass next year I can't offer any promises as to when that might be. Could be some small stuff early in the year and some medium work later, just balance/QoL changes at some indeterminate point, a moderate sized piece of gameplay work late in the year etc.
Lord Azır21 votes

{quoted}

  • How that work will be prioritized hasn't been determined yet. There are a number of other projects it'd have to be traded off against on either the Live Gameplay (balance) team or the **Champion Update (reworks) team (projects like Ryze, Azir, Taric, Yorick etc). **

Azir wait what?

RiotMeddler11 votes

Azir's kit is sufficiently difficult to learn that it doesn't seem to currently be possible to put him in a spot where he's sufficiently balanced for experienced players without being extremely inaccessible to people unfamiliar with him. Learning curve and skill ceiling are great of course, in this case Azir's skill floor's too punishing though. Current intent is to look at ways to make him somewhat more accessible, with if needs be, some nerfs to his top end if those changes buff him there too.

DemiluniS5 votes

So why not leave him in this state?why every champ have to be accessible for everyone? Why can't you keep difficult champs to experienced and determined players? Riven attack animation canceling is too difficult for me, lowe her skill ceiling please so I can play her effectively /s

Hyrum Graff5 votes

{quoted}

So why not leave him in this state?why every champ have to be accessible for everyone? Why can't you keep difficult champs to experienced and determined players? Riven attack animation canceling is too difficult for me, lowe her skill ceiling please so I can play her effectively /s

Because having to nerf Azir down to a 40% w/r in soloQ (not a real stat, just for example) in order to keep him from being competitive pick/ban isn't fun, because that basically means' he's a troll pick for normal players.

DemiluniS8 votes

No, it means that you need dedication to learn the champion in order to be good with him. Win rate is not a statistic used to determine the champion's power, especially champions with higher skill ceiling

Auryiel20 votes
  1. I really don't see what's wrong with that
  2. I cannot even fathom how Azir of all champions could take priority over basically ANYONE, especially Cass... Like come on, you have a champion who's strong in the right hands but very difficult to master and another who has been garbage on purpose for the last several months.
HadesBlades9 votes

I read awhile ago that Syndra was going to get some buffs or updates on her passive and hopefully other abilities, I know she has already gotten buffs on her mana but will we see any other large changes with her? Or are you guys happy with her overall kit but just wanting to buff her a little bit? Or maybe no change at all in preseason? summoner 14 Syndra

Thanks rito for all hard work! I have overall enjoyed the season :D keep up the great work, awesome concepts, and those kick ass lores!

RiotMeddler15 votes

We'd still like to make some improvements to Syndra's passive, probably in a way that added a bit of power to her to. No short term plans for that though, that'll be a sometime post preseason project (timing uncertain, since our current road map for balance type changes primarily reads 'Get preseason ready and then follow up on preseason').

Reformed Dunni7 votes

Meddler is Ao Shin scrapped or was he just put aside for now because of, (what I heard) animation issues with his body?

RiotMeddler26 votes

Ao Shin got put on hold quite a while back, in large part due to technical issues with making a serpentine creature look like we wanted in game. Plan's always been to look at Ao Shin again once we've got the tech to do those body animations properly.

Alleo5 votes

Going along the lines of Ao Shin being put on hold a while back, are any plans to do anything with Omen? I know there was talk about Omen being put aside because the development team felt Omen was a subpar work that was just a jumble of a bunch of different ideas. So I was just wondering if there was the possibility of looking into Omen again or if parts of his work were used in already released champions.

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

I believe that a Rioter mentioned that Rek'Sai is actually the spiritual successor to Omen.

Archenz7 votes

Will we get another champ this year?

Also thanks for the communication and transparency Meddler, much appreciated.

Also, will you continue to add spice to League by making more champs that "aren't stuck to lanes"? (Mord bot, kindred jg, etc). Cause the tank/fighter top. Assassin/Mage mid with support/add every game gets tiring.

Edit: Jesus Reddit, what is this, a karma farming thread? Go away, leave my comment alone.

RiotMeddler26 votes

Current expectation is that Kindred will not be the last new champ of the year.

We will continue to look for opportunities to get classes into less common positions, that's not going to be a good fit for some champion concepts though.

Mallory3306 votes

Is there a chance Poppy could be voiced by Bill Nye in her rework..?

Science Rules!

RiotMeddler10 votes

If it was my choice I'd have Bill Nye voice any champion he was interested in, even if that meant we'd end up with something like Bill Nye Draven or Sona.

Jeddy0176 votes

"Bill Nye the DRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVEN Guy"

chipi995 votes

Will Poppy maintain her original voice actor, get a new but similair sounding voice (like the new Teemo skin), or totally different voice?

RiotMeddler10 votes

I know we've recorded a lot of new Poppy VO, not sure if it's the same voice actor or not myself though.

WyvernEgg5 votes

Have you always been doing this? Or is letting us know what your gonna change before the patch a new thing?

lightdragoon883 votes

He started doing this since the Juggernaut patch.

RiotMeddler20 votes

Yeah, I've been trying out a few different approaches to these recently. One after the Juggernaut patch that was a more in depth look at a few characters, one a few weeks back that was a look at the gameplay teams at Riot and this one looking at a range of current issues. Still trying to nail down a format and frequency that makes the most sense.

BastionKross5 votes

This format is good and bad. I like you telling us what's going through Riot's head, and getting all the info in one place is great without having to search around for different topics that have red posts or using the red tracker.

The bad part is that if there's a part of the topic that interests you, and you want to discuss specifically that, you're almost forced to make a separate topic since the comments below the OP are a mish-mash of everything. Some people are talking about Morde, some are talking vision, some asking about new champs and Ao Shin; Sorting through all that to get to the comments about one topic is a bit of a crawl.

Is there some way the boards people can program a single topic and have multiple comment threads inside it? For example, you post the OP, and players can create sub-topics specifically addressing different sections of your post. (One for Morde, one for vision, one for this or that). That way you can have separate, concentrated discussions, but have them all grouped together. And of course players can still leave normal, general comments without having to go into one of the sub-topics to comment on the opening post as a whole.

OverpoweredSoap5 votes

First of all, thank you for this thread and post, it's good to know how you guys feel on the current situation.

Speaking of Tahm Kench, if you were to nerf him, would you guys consider just reverting a few of the buffs you guys gave him?

A decent amount of people thought the buffs were over the top and that his release state was fine/balance or just slightly weak, if at all.

{quoted}

Meddler is Ao Shin scrapped or was he just put aside for now because of, (what I heard) animation issues with his body?

95% sure they said he was pushed off to a later (very later) date due to animations with his body and how unsure they were with what they wanted to do with his kit.

aperson15 votes

What about the Riven "Edge" changes on PBE a while ago? Are they going through? You can't just show those to us and not talk about it. If it was trashed, non-Riven players are going to hound you about it til you answer, so you may as well spill the beans now.

RiotMeddler15 votes

Those are currently on hold while the Live Gameplay team's focused on preseason work. We'll probably look at Riven against once that stuff's out, unclear whether those specific changes are what we'd want to go with yet or not though. In the meantime we're shipping a small nerf to Riven's ult CD to take a bit of power off her.

Xonra4 votes

Would personally love to see this sort of update far more often (when there is something to give) in regards to...everything.

Just seeing some things ticked off with small explanations on:

  • Potential game modes in the future or changes to current ones
  • skins in whatever way
  • upcoming champ ideas
  • situations that are cuasing you to look at x,y,z for updates/nerfs/buffs

and so on. Instead of having to track down 4 different people every now and then mentioning something, or going to a third party website (like S@20) you guys just do a tl;dr sort of post like this. Sort of like what was supposed to take place months ago when I was working with the group that was going to have our own "news" area for goings on With Riot and the game (that seems to have gone MIA as far as I can tell).

RiotMeddler10 votes

I'll be trying to do these every so often. Buffs/nerfs/updates are one of the things I'll be best able to cover, new champ ideas by contrast we generally prefer not to talk about until the champion's ready. Game modes and skins by contrast are outside of my own area of expertise, so I'll leave discussion on those to the folks who work on them who are much more able to talk about them usefully.

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