A Response to Doublelift on a Constantly Evolving Game

RiotGhostcrawler·7/14/2018, 9:16:14 PM·1 votes·119,184 views

Doublelift posted a great video the other day talking about the rate of change in League. It’s worth watching. Since he referenced me in particular, I thought it was worth offering the Riot perspective here. My intention is absolutely not to try and refute him point by point, because we agree with a lot of what he says. But this way at least you all might have some idea of what our goals are and why we don’t always achieve them.

Costs of Change

First, we totally get that change has a cost. Learning is fun, and as DL says, one of the things that keeps players coming back to League. However, for this to work, you need to feel like there is a sense of forward momentum, not that you’re just running in place all the time because freaking Riot keeps resetting the game. I honestly can’t completely put myself into the shoes of a pro player, because I’ve never had to scrim 12 hours a day because my team and even career depend on it. When a pro feels like they let down their team because of a change we made, that sucks. When any player feels like a lot of the work they put into mastering a champion is reset, that sucks. That’s definitely not the goal, though sometimes it’s an unavoidable consequence of trying to meet the goals. (I’m also happy to acknowledge that sometimes it probably is avoidable.)

Overall, our goal is to make sure that our changes always move the game forward. An (unrealistic) vision I try to impart in our designers is to imagine that there is a perfect League of Legends out there (there's not), and every change we make should move us closer to that vision (even if we sometimes take one or two steps back along the way). We should not make change for the sake of change just to “spice things up.” Now, in all honesty it’s true that we do a little of this. New champions for example are mostly to make sure that players always have something novel to look forward to. But overall we want to move forward.

Goals of Change

So why change the game at all? As DL points out, it is really easy for multiplayer games to become stale if players solve them. This is particularly true today where streaming and video content are so prevalent that when pros or anyone else figure out an efficient solution, it quickly disseminates to everyone. Certain communities embrace this - just ask any Smash player. In that case, the game doesn’t change much at all and it’s up to the community to come up with any kind of evolution to the strategy / meta.

There is nothing wrong with that approach. It’s just a different approach. The approach that Riot has taken is to constantly evolve the game. Riot was founded back when Tryndamere and Ryze got frustrated with an RTS or whatever it was they were playing, in which all the players knew there was one winning strategy and if only the freaking developers would make a few simple balance changes, the game would have so many more options and all those dead units would actually get used. There are League players (and not just pros) who play many, many hours of League every week. If they go up against a frustrating champion or a degenerative strategy every game, they may have to suffer through dozens of games before we fix it, and that’s assuming we fix it for the next patch within two weeks and get it right the first time. Often we don’t quite fix it enough, or potentially over fix it, and that requires even more suffering for players.

Recent Changes

The 2018 season has been a period of very high change. We started with Runes Reforged and followed with Jungle and bottom lane changes that were more disruptive than is usual, and frankly, than we intended.

While overall we are happy with our progress towards the goals of the runes overhaul (and yes I do want to acknowledge that not every player is happy with the overhaul) we knew we were going to have to smooth out large parts of the game after launch. We had necessary followup on the balance front, like Stopwatch, and the design front, like Conqueror, which meant players were constantly having to relearn parts of the system. But runes would be worse off today if we hadn’t made those changes, and we think League will be better in the long run as we polish Runes further.

We also tried bigger even-numbered patches in the first half of the season to allow us to solve larger problems, such as the AP item refactor, that was more change than we have done in the past few midseasons. More recently a lot of this year’s pain has come from midseason stretching for 3 patches with gameplay shifts on each. Ironically, the goal was to smooth out the launch of this midseason's changes, since when many huge changes hit at the same time, it can be hard to tell which problems will clear up over time, and which ones we need to actively fix. For many players, though, the experience wasn't "midseason parts 1, 2, 3" so much as "midseason 1, midseason 2, midseason 3." That cost ended up being higher than anticipated, which is a big part of why we decided not to ship the new fighter items we had slated for patch 8.12.

Looking at the next few months, patches in the run-up to worlds and preseason will be much less disruptive. We're not going to continue with big patch / small patch. In addition, preseason will be a single patch rather than the spread out approach we took with midseason. We're planning to stick with the single-patch approach going forward, too.

Inadvertent Effects of Changes

Also remember that while our changes are intentional, the impact of them isn’t necessarily so. We have a really strong development team who thinks deeply about their goals and the changes they want to bring about, and then we playtest the crap out of the changes we make and only ship the best ones. But I’ll be the first to admit we get it wrong sometimes (and I apologize for when we do).

We wanted to make some changes to ADCs for sure. We didn’t want to remove Trist and Cait and Rekkles from the game. We actually thought it might take larger changes to shift some of the power that ADCs hold over the bottom lane, and thought it was more likely we didn’t go far enough. After a much bigger shift than expected, however, we’ve shifted focus from continuing to open bot up, to making sure we didn’t take too much power away from ADCs. One of the benefits of our patch cadence is that when we do miss the mark, we have a chance to correct it, and hopefully ADCs are heading towards a better place now.

Competitive Changes

The competitive season in general is a big challenge for us. We certainly don’t balance the game only for pros, but as DL points out, pro play is obviously a huge draw and we want to make sure there we can provide a good viewer experience for the major LoL esports events. Unfortunately that often gives us a really narrow window in which to make large changes - pretty much preseason and midseason these days. It’s a tense situation when we have a problem in the game that we want to fix for competitive gaming and (a) risk making the change so late that pros have no opportunity to adapt to the change, or (b) risk not making the change and having a less interesting viewer experience as a result.

Last year, when the Ardent Censer meta emerged, both Riot and pros weren’t entirely sure what it was suppressing. The meta that might have emerged with a weakened / removed Censer could very well had been worse than the Censer meta, and pros at least had a lot of time to build strategies around Censer. This is the risk that can happen with a slower rate of change: something really comes to dominate. We had already patched Censer, but pros were playing on an older patch, again, to reduce the amount of “rules churn” they had to contend with.

We’re in a similar spot today with gold funneling. We’re concerned the viewer experience around gold funneling isn’t great, and while we hoped at first it would be a strategy you’d see sometimes, it looks it may very well come to dominate. Patch 8.14 does have a change meant to curb funneling, but we acknowledge that means we’re forcing pros to adapt to a change well past midseason.

Champ Changes

I could write a whole post just on large champion updates (VGUs). We owe it to players to fix champions who aren’t interesting to play, who lack counterplay, or who just feel outdated. But we know there is a big risk that we end up losing some of the dedicated players of that champion if we move them too far away from their original state. Sometimes we think it’s still worth doing for the sake of the game. Loss aversion is a very real thing, but this isn’t a single player game where it’s okay to let someone have an overpowered character just because it’s fun for them.

I wanted to give a shoutout to Voyboy’s Tweet where he talks about the cost for other players when your champion is a little OP, as well as the challenges of buffing instead of nerfing.

Aatrox himself is a larger topic that illustrates many of the opportunities and challenges of champion updates. I considered going into it here, but this is getting long already, it’s probably worthy of its own discussion.

Thanks for reading. A video response to Doublelift would have been easier to sit through, but we didn’t want to delay our response any longer. Thanks to all of you who take the time through videos, streams, Reddit or whatever to point out where you think the game or our process can improve. It’s not always easy to hear of course, but overall we think it’s one of the reasons League is still around after almost a decade.

433 Comments

grubsteak7/14/2018, 10:14:45 PM87 votes

Ghostcrawler, Hey man, I don't represent the community, but on behalf of the community I'd like to apologize for all the toxicity in here. It's embarrassing. At heart, everyone really appreciates you taking the time to make this response. Thanks for your efforts here and in the game, keep up the good work.

VoidInsanity7/15/2018, 2:07:59 AM65 votes

Doublelifts video is things I been warning Riot about for years, including GC directly, constantly. So to say I am annoyed or disgruntled by the response I see here would be an understatement, it's the same PR damage control response Riot unfortunately always gives. The same excuses for unsolved problems they been giving for 8 years.

When any player feels like a lot of the work they put into mastering a champion is reset, that sucks. That’s definitely not the goal, though sometimes it’s an unavoidable consequence of trying to meet the goals. (I’m also happy to acknowledge that sometimes it probably is avoidable.)

The goal is and always is - Players first, not you the developer, they are not the ones playing the game. If your goal of "we need new shit to sell/market" conflicts with the players goal of "we like things as they are" - The latter wins. Yes, it is annoying as a developer to have your work "wasted" but a lot of that is easily avoided if you stop constantly trying to reinvent the wheel, no probability about it.

We should not make change for the sake of change just to “spice things up.” Now, in all honesty it’s true that we do a little of this. New champions for example are mostly to make sure that players always have something novel to look forward to. But overall we want to move forward.

This is not the first time I have heard this from Riot and this is not the first time I have to point out that no moving forward has happened since then. Every single time something like this happens Riot is more focused on damage control than they are at actually doing something about the concerns raised.

There is nothing wrong with that approach. It’s just a different approach. The approach that Riot has taken is to constantly evolve the game.

And as DL pointed out in his video and as I have been saying for years - The developer is not the one that evolves the game. So you are right in there is nothing wrong with the Smash Bro's approach but you are wrong in implying that Riots approach is acceptable. It is not. There is a right as a wrong way todo everything, overwhelming popularity doesn't make you infallible, Bluehole has recently found that out the hard way.

Riot was founded back when Tryndamere and Ryze got frustrated with an RTS or whatever it was they were playing, in which all the players knew there was one winning strategy and if only the freaking developers would make a few simple balance changes, the game would have so many more options and all those dead units would actually get used.

And what happened to that Riot? Where is it now? Where is the Riot that is willing to allow a meta to exist, where is the Riot that is willing to address the issue of the "one winning strategy" of 112J by making them few simple balance changes to allow more freedom of composition? The game would have so many more options if all them compositions, styles of play could actually get used and you wouldn't have to constantly make asinine decisions to keep the players inline. Starcraft wouldn't be what it is today if when Bisu revolutionised PvZ Blizzard stepped in and put a stop to it and LoL isn't the game it should be today because you won't stop stepping in. You are not evolving the game, you are constantly preventing it's evolution as the second anything resembling an evolution happens, you patch it out.

Also remember that while our changes are intentional, the impact of them isn’t necessarily so. We have a really strong development team who thinks deeply about their goals and the changes they want to bring about, and then we playtest the crap out of the changes we make and only ship the best ones. But I’ll be the first to admit we get it wrong sometimes (and I apologize for when we do).

If this were true we wouldn't have such misguided and rushed out changes like the original Cassiopea rework, the current Mordekaiser. You ship everything because while you should not make change for the sake of change to "spice things up" - It is all you do.

We wanted to make some changes to ADCs for sure. We didn’t want to remove Trist and Cait and Rekkles from the game. We actually thought it might take larger changes to shift some of the power that ADCs hold over the bottom lane, and thought it was more likely we didn’t go far enough. After a much bigger shift than expected, however, we’ve shifted focus from continuing to open bot up, to making sure we didn’t take too much power away from ADCs. One of the benefits of our patch cadence is that when we do miss the mark, we have a chance to correct it, and hopefully ADCs are heading towards a better place now.

ADC's don't have power over the bottom lane, the bottom lane has power over the ADC's. They are forced into a fixed composition, the 112J and all your changes do is reinforce that problem. Messing with the Victim of the problem does nothing to address the problem, the only outcome is potentially making the victim the new problem. When that happens and you revert the changes that caused it, you are still left with the original unsolved problem. Fixing the problems you cause is not the same as solving the problems the game has which is why the same problems keep popping up in LoL, you never solved them originally.

This is the risk that can happen with a slower rate of change: something really comes to dominate. ............. We’re in a similar spot today with gold funneling. We’re concerned the viewer experience around gold funneling isn’t great, and while we hoped at first it would be a strategy you’d see sometimes, it looks it may very well come to dominate.

Agreed and that is when you step in, when something really comes to dominate, like 112J compositions. Like Smite being essential to jungle and not a player choice. You should have stepped in by now on such issues yet you continue to ignore them. Around 2-3 years ago players were using a 2v1 composition to push down the side towers quickly, exploiting teams inability to react to it without suffering a significant disadvantage if they used the typical 112J setup. In a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors where players have been going Rock vs Rock for years, ofc the introduction of Paper will shake things up and prevent Rock from working, it is designed to beat Rock. That is evolution yet you patched it out, you took away Paper rather than assist the playerbase in developing scissors. Your response to Gold Funnelling is a replication of this mistake but more annoyingly it's a recreation of the same mistake DotA made over 10 years ago.

Loss aversion is a very real thing, but this isn’t a single player game where it’s okay to let someone have an overpowered character just because it’s fun for them.

I recall a story you told about Camille where in testing she was OP as shit, where someone playing her for the first time was able to get godlike streaks against your experienced testers and you released her in that state. While I do agree it's not ok to let someone have an OP character because it's fun for them, you have a track record of doing exactly that. Old Xin, Release Darius, Release Riven, Yusaso, list goes on.

I have far more I could say but at this point, I am frankly sick of repeating myself.

KFC Owner7/14/2018, 10:16:04 PM53 votes

Jesus christ whats with the comment section. And you wonder why Rioters dont like being active on boards...

WARLORDROBB7/15/2018, 12:58:26 PM27 votes

An open letter...

I’ll kick this off with my bias. I started back in 2012, and I’m a tank main. I play a lot of Maokai (pre and post rework), and I also have a lot of love for Naut, Zac, Sejuani and Alistar. I used to do jungle tanking (zac, sej, and a bit further back in time naut and mao), but seeing has how jungle tanks are pretty much dead (a rant for another day), I now mostly I reside in toplane.

This comment section has a lot of emotion in it to say the least, and I think I’m just going to make this as cut and dry as I can in an effort to make it readable for everyone.

In this post, you (GC) mention a perfect version of league of legends. For me, the biggest steps you could take to reach that perfect version would be to make games longer. I think this is so partly because longer games are what I enjoy the most, and isn’t player enjoyment kind of the point? But Incase my feelings don’t persuade you, allow me to present some hastily written evidence.

The brother lane (Nasus/Renekton) matchup is a fantastic example of why I think games should have the potential to go longer (while I mostly play tanks I dabble in bruisers more and more often, and I have played both sides of this matchup many times). Renekton owns the early game (for the sake of this argument I’m ignoring essence reaver Ren AND the Nasus ult buff from a while back that halfs siphoning strikes cooldown for the duration, will explain later). He hits his level 3 power spike and will bully Nasus off of the wave and try to kill him. As Ren, you want the kill, and as Nasus, you don’t want to die. The later the lane goes, the less sway Renekton agression will have, and the more strength Nasus will gain through items and siphoning strike. I would argue that this is a pretty clean skill matchup. Both champions are fairly simple to play, but they are at their best under different conditions. This is related to game length because in an ideal meta, Renekton could run away with the lane, picking up kills on Nasus or while roaming, and close it out early (20-30min) before the dog can really show up OR Nasus could stall until the croc falls off and carry the late game (35-50min). The reason I neglect the Nasus ult buff and ER Ren is because those 2 things push Ren later and Nasus earlier, blurring the line that I thought was perfectly drawn back before those changes were made.

On a different note, I miss ADC’s, specifically crit, which sounds weird because I’m a tank player, but hear me out. I have a buddy who plays AD exclusively. We duo a lot, and until recently our killer combo has always been hyper tank and hyper carry. I play Maokai top or sej jungle, he plays jinx bot. We push the game out, farming up and defending towers, then go for big team fight wins wherein I protect him from assassins and he wins the fight. Right now, that just doesn’t happen because there is no way to come back from a bad start and the games get closed out on us before we have much effect.

Leagues Ideal state is a team fight game. You can skip around it with poke comps and split pushing, but the best thing for this game would be to bring back a late game where team fights carry the most weight, not laning. That’s what I love playing, that’s what I love watching. I like a game where at 25 min, one team will have the upper hand, but the underdogs can make a comeback through superior fighting and macro, and the guys with the lead can close it out with ruthless positioning and capitalization.

There are other things I would love to add (revert scuddle, bring back jungle tanks, etc.) but this is already huge, so I’m leaving it where it is. Thank you everyone who made it to the end, and please feel free to criticize it (tank meta haters come at me). I love this game, and I want it to go another decade, but changes need to be made, and I refuse to standby while other people make their cases. Make your voices heard!

TL;DR: I want league games to run longer, and leave the door open for ADCs to return. Emphasis should be on team fighting skill, and the laning phase should have less impact that it currently does on game outcome.

Thanks!! -BB1

Quinzley7/14/2018, 9:20:03 PM27 votes

[deleted]

Zac in Black7/15/2018, 12:22:44 AM24 votes

I understand that you are not the balance team itself, and I respect that you make every effort to listen to the players that you can and take a lot of heat from the unsatisfied players, since they think you're the lead designer so you're the entire balance team apparently. But I still need to tell you what I think about this paragraph.

I could write a whole post just on large champion updates (VGUs). We owe it to players to fix champions who aren't interesting to play, who lack counterplay, or who just feel outdated. But we know there is a big risk that we end up losing some of the dedicated players of that champion if we move them too far away from their original state. Sometimes we think it's still worth doing for the sake of the game. Loss aversion is a very real thing, but this isn't a single player game where it's okay to let someone have an overpowered character just because it's fun for them.

There are many champions who have been reworked and have been left to sit at the bottom of the pile while a good majority of players are upset enough about them to be vocal about it. The champion I want to talk about is Zac. His rework left him with a kit that seems very tough if at all possible to balance and also made him very annoying to play both with and against. I understand the balance team can't please everyone, that's objectively impossible to do. However, many many players, and dare I say the majority, are displeased with how a lot of their champions have been reworked, and I speak specifically for Zac mains.

When you wrote "We owe it to players to fix champions who aren't interesting to play, who lack counterplay, or who just feel outdated," that seemed odd to me considering if you look specifically at old Zac, there was nothing outdated, broken, or uninteresting about him. He was a high risk, high reward diver with possibilities for diverse builds in both top lane, jungle, and even mid lane. He sat at a balanced winrate and was a pretty under-the-radar champion, but you still saw him in pro play every once in a while. The rework seemed to change him just for the sake of change. It seemed unnecessary. Statistics back up the poor delivery of the rework today as well as a year ago when he came out, in both Solo Queue and pro play.

While I speak mainly for Zac mains, being a former Zac main myself and wanting to see him changed and possibly even reverted, I wish Riot would take a closer look at all the champions they have reworked and see what their communities think. The Zac players, at least in the subreddit, have not had a chance to give our thoughts to or be acknowledged by a Rioter ever since Shrieve gave us information on the rework over a year ago. We do appreciate that, but we, and many others, have been in the dark for a long time. If you can't do that, at least supply us with reasons why the balance team won't revert the rework. It would at least provide some closure and make many players happy that you showed some communication.

While i do know that Reddit and any other forum is not the majority of the playerbase (the Zac mains subreddit has only 1.7k subscribers, compared to the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands who play Zac) many of those players on there are very high elo and very passionate about the champion. One of our Master players made a fantastic comment going into detail about Zac's kit and our qualms with it on a previous Quick Gameplay Thoughts which you can find here so the ones who really do care and can probably speak for most Zac mains are the ones who seek out these forums and go to express their thoughts. I feel the quality of their thoughts is more important than the lack of quantity of people who seek out and participate in these discussions. However, that's just my personal opinion.

Zac Thank you for taking the time to read this if you get around to it. I would really appreciate a response.

SLOtermicrafter7/15/2018, 9:29:09 AM21 votes
  1. I'm with Doublelift on this, WHY do you REMOVE a champion that so many people play (example: Aatrox Aatrox, Irelia Irelia) and switch them out with a NEW champion. I'm sorry Riot but JUST BECAUSE THEY LOOK SIMILAR does not mean it's a "rework" if you butcher their kits which is 95% of the champion, like who cares how the champion looks if it's FUN (example: Lee Sin, very outdated model still very popular cause of fun kit).

Rework means: "make changes to (something), especially in order to make it more up to date." You DID NOT "rework" and or "champion update" in your terms champions like: Irelia, Aatrox, Swain, Urgot, Galio.

Did some of them like Urgot Urgot deserved to get updated? Sure I guess, but still what would it costs you to keep both versions in the game... LIKE HONESTLY WHAT WOULD IT COST YOU? I'M REALLY FUCKING CURIOUS.

You just removed the champions that people loved, and you fucked them over. Just because you are to lazy? Or why? Why could you not remove the champion just changed the model of the rework and that would be that! Then you could market the new champion and also get loads more money! I really don't get it, is it ignorance? Is it stubbornness? And don't say bullshit like "oh there would be too many champions" cause we already have like 140 and you still plan on making more and most of them are similar if you read their kits on a basic level.

Honestly... you could have just changed the new Aatroxes model and changed the name and it would be a new champion... Just because the new Aatrox and old one have the same name and similar appearance does NOT mean it's a "rework", it's a removal of the old champion just because YOU didn't like him... Or maybe cause people hated him for being a "stat check" even thought that is every ADC in the game, so will you remove all of the ADC's as well? Would seem fair to me, and I wouldn't mind it as well because I sure as hell don't like ADC's because I don't find them fun and enjoyable to play as or against, but that is just my opinion and the opinion of many people that don't play them. But you wont remove them, because you shouldn't and I don't expect you to, because it's ridiculous to remove something just because SOME people don't like it. It is ridiculous right, to remove something people love just because others dont? Right? Right? heh..

Same with Irelia, but i'm just talking about Aatrox because I played him a lot and I don't necessarily know a lot about the old Irelia, though I have a friend that stopped playing this game just because of the Irelia rework.

All in all Riot I don't think you have a good excuse for removing champions like Aatrox, but hey it's your fucking game so you can do what you want, i'll just watch it die because I sure ain't gonna play a game that can remove the hundreds of hours I spent playing a champion just for the champion to get "reworked", and keeps on constantly evolving by making some stuff broken and then you don't fix it FOR MONTHS even thought you patch the game every 2 weeks.

Solari Fortune7/14/2018, 9:37:29 PM19 votes

I am kinda curious what is about an average-ish skill level/elo the team looks at when it comes to figuring out balance stuff?

Banuvan7/15/2018, 1:16:29 AM18 votes

Hope the cost was worth it. Game isn't even that much fun to watch anymore much less play.

Bën7/14/2018, 10:10:01 PM18 votes

First, to everyone commenting on this post, just be respectful. Riot has been very transparent and mature about the recent patches. They're willing to take criticism and discuss things with us, so **just be respectful. **

The people who work at Riot are nice human beings who work hard. Treat them like so.

Although DL did a great job of explaining the CONS of a constantly changing game, just remember that a changing meta means that at some point you can always count on your champion being viable again in the future. There is no meta where every champion in the game is good. Change brings hope to OTP's and people looking to spice things up.

Ghostcrawler, I appreciate your hard work and transparency.

WarWork7/14/2018, 11:39:34 PM14 votes

Just an opinion, but I think the problem with the champion changes, it's that it feels like updating the champions, you delete them from the game making completely new character with all new abilities, a different look, a completely different personality. I mean you don't even keep or reference old voicelines anymore. I believe at first people were excited for updates but now they kinda scared that their champion will just get deleted.

And for the Ardent changes I think that one was really on riot, the boards, reddit, Pro players and streamers were complaining about that for months and I think in that particular case you should have addressed it immediately.

VG Crows7/14/2018, 10:26:51 PM13 votes

To Ghostcrawler,

The disappearance of ADCs from botlane is only a consequence of the game state in general. LoL as of now is highly centered around early game. ADCs before their changes had semi-strong early game presence, and then you weakened them in that aspect, pushing their scaling further into the late game. You did indeed open up botlane, yes... but, ironically, to those who have a better early game strengths than ADCs do now. The abundance of damage and early game centered meta made late game nonexistant almost entirely, hence ADCs are basically dead as a whole class. If you want to correct your mistake, you shouldn't just make them come back again on botlane, this won't fix anything. You should revisit your entire view on game state as a whole and make games last longer. Otherwise not just ADCs, but everything that is somewhat more or less scewed into "later game stage" with weak early game presense will dissappear just the same and viable champion pool will only get smaller.

Vlada Cut7/14/2018, 9:35:28 PM13 votes

No. It's not Riot's perspective. It's yours, amd yours alone. Ego much? No, people who downvote are even more ego filled because they say they dislike CG and yet they downvote people into oblivion when they say it. Doubt forumers even know what they even want anymore.

Cosnirak7/14/2018, 9:51:10 PM13 votes

Still not one mention of damage creep. It's hard to be anything but disappointed at this point.

LastLaughLol7/15/2018, 2:47:23 AM10 votes

God I agree so much with Doublelift. Why do you rework a champion such as Aatrox or Irelia, if youre just giving them brand new kits?

Those kits DEFINE those champions. Arguably more so than their aesthetics.

Irelia was so different from her original, why even call her Irelia? Just slap on a new name, some lore, and you got a brand new champion.

Instead Aatrox and Irelia needed hard fixin'. No matter the champion, if you tweak the numbers elegantly enough they will reach 50% win rate. Not sure why these champions need to be butchered for their new forms.

Edit: I understand some kits such as WW were VERY outdated, a kit such as that Id say might deserve a huge rework. But Aatrox and Irelia, were somewhat viable, and while their kits were pretty binary, they were not so boring/outdated.

The Yetii Rider7/15/2018, 6:12:38 AM9 votes

The big question is why does Riot continue to balance pro and solo queue on the same server?

Pro players are 5 man teams in perfect sync with instant communication that literally live in the same house, eat together, play together, spend years developing relationships that allow them to cover each others' weaknesses and rely on each others' strengths.

I don't care how many games of C9 you watch, you are not going to replicate that when you click 'Ranked Solo/Duo' in your bedroom.

WindLord70707/14/2018, 9:42:05 PM8 votes

What about when you take a champion that isn't over powered or problematic and just put them in another role where they do become overpowered and problematic and instead of removing them from the problematic role you instead remove them form their previous role? Champions such as nidalee and graves for example?

D4rwin997/15/2018, 8:39:52 AM8 votes

While the personal touch you provide in messages like this to the community is very cool, I have a very difficult time understanding how you and / or the development team consistently skew the balancing in this game. By a wide margin.

How hard is it to create an algorithm that ball park estimates the power level of changes as they relate to the game balance and more specifically of champions? Assign values, see how they increase or decrease based on your modifications... This isn't very hard to do.

For the size of your user base and the amount of money flowing through this product, it's absurd you haven't come up with a way to mitigate the consistent "woops, didn't see that one coming" scenario League seems to deal with on a regular basis after patches. Obviously, it's impossible to properly balance over 100 champions and it would conflict with Riot's business model anyway, but at least you could reduce the wildly broken champ situation.

But then again, what do I know?

ShadowScorpionX7/15/2018, 2:12:43 AM7 votes

{quoted} One of the benefits of our patch cadence is that when we do miss the mark, we have a chance to correct it, and hopefully ADCs are heading towards a better place now.

Can you expand on that? How is it that you think ADCs are heading towards a better place? I haven't seen more than a random buff to adcs in several patches, but you guys are pretty good at continuing to nerf the viable ones (e.g. rageblade)

DJPopABBCOut7/18/2018, 2:40:46 PM6 votes

Hi. I'm someone who has been an adc main since season 3 and someone who used to play probably 30 hours of league a week until a few months ago. I had always been a devoted fan of Riot and although they sometimes put out stuff I didn't agree with, I could for the most part defend and see their position on things. That was until patch 8.11. Now I will admit leading up to that patch I actually hadn't been playing to much league. I just wasn't enjoying the game as much as I had in the past. But being the devoted fan I was wanting to give league another go. No game really could ever match it in the amount of fun I had. Mastering a champion and beating someone's ass on it is one of the most satisfying feelings in the world. However, when 8.11 came out and marksmen were gutted, I couldn't defend Riots choice. A week or so after the patch is when everyone started playing mages bot and I couldn't do anything. It honestly feels like adc doesnt have a roll in the game right now besides a select few. I'm not writing out of spite, I'm writing because as someone who's played this game for so many years, I'm just concerned that the champions I've been playing aren't viable. What Rekkles said, "a top laner can do my job better than I can" really hit home. I know I'm not a pro player but I relate to what Rekkles said a lot. It feels like Riot just gave said whatever to adcs and adc players. I refuse to play mages bot because I'm an adc main through and through. I want to play my champions and not lose just because I pick them. Obviously I understand not all champions can be viable but you get the point. Hopefully these changes in 8.13 will help but I dont think they will put adcs as the go to bot lane pick again unfortunately.

Sincerely,

A Concerned Fan

pseudo dionysius7/14/2018, 9:27:16 PM6 votes

[deleted]

Spideraxe7/14/2018, 9:30:01 PM6 votes

How do you feel about one tricking something in League, whether it be a role or a champ, since I think it aligns heavily with how players see change. Since I think a big reason marksman players felt bad after 8.12 because of the fact that marksman or ADCs were the sole dominators of the bot lane carry role for the longest time and then suddenly they basically had to relearn their role with like 8ish years worth of experience gone

TheSingularity7/15/2018, 12:19:26 AM6 votes

In regards to fixing gold funneling.

Why not just revert the scuttle crab changes and redistribute the gold back to the rest of the jungle? This change destroyed any jungler that can't fight for scuttle: tanks, weaker fighters, mages. No team mate ever helps secure scuttle crab unless they're there to steal it from you.

And gold funneling (the mid+jg variety) only became a thing after this change was introduced. Shouldn't the logical conclusion be to revert this change and see what happens? In the very worst case scenario, nothing happens, the strategy stays the same. However it is unlikely to result in funneling being stronger (as we remove 2 huge gold dumps that are vital for yi to secure, so he'll have to counter jungle to get his gold opening himself and his support up to counter invades).

It is simple and straightforward in its goal and makes far more sense than adjusting 50 different things to fix 1 small problem caused by one small but big impact change (that you can simply hotfix revert)

Reaganomics7/16/2018, 4:43:30 PM5 votes

This may not be the right thread to post this... but a lot of it seems appropriate.

I have been playing since Kog'maw was released, so I have seen the majority of the major changes that have come to this game, and as much as I LOVE this game I just can't find that much enjoyment in it at the moment. It's getting less & less fun to load up and play. Hell, I don't think I've played a serious game since early June or late May and I'm the type of player who used to play 6-10 Ranked games A DAY. I would go for Gold or better every season to get the exclusive skin, now I just really don't care. And yes you can dismiss me as a scrub for being happy with Gold or Plat, but the majority of the player base is Plat and lower.

To be honest it all started with the Rune changes for me, the lack of anything significant as a refund and the feeling that I actually had less options than I did previously under the old Runes/Mastery system. It just didn't FEEL good to me and I know at least 3 players who stopped playing the game with the changes. On a personal note the Blue Essence was nice but it did not make up for the YEARS of grinding to get 20 full pages and didn't matter much to those of us who had all the champs at the time of the change. I also simply feel we have seen too many changes in too short a time frame, as doublelift mentioned. Many that seem to have fallen flat or simply failed, most notably for me with the champ re-works.

It's okay to let a champ be niche if that champ has a dedicated group of players who really love them. One of my friends stopped playing because he loved Galio, and the new Galio simply WASN'T Galio anymore. Also, poor gbay99. On a positive note, as someone who has literally played Lux since her release day (Even getting her before the store crashed for several hours so no one else could buy her) some of the recent changes to her have been interesting and welcome. I think more of that is what most people in the community, who are upset about champion changes, are looking for. The aforementioned Gbay99 even did a pretty good video about the Aatrox changes in which he mentioned that changes to him, just prior to the re-work, made him a really fun and interesting character to play... than it was suddenly gone and replaced by a Riven clone, but from a bad metal album.

I can tell you this much, and this is anecdotal, but I have at least 8 friends (including the previously mentioned 4), that have stopped playing over the past two years due to the constant changes and state of the game. That may not seem like a lot, after all so what if 8 players leave, but this pattern will continue. We've seen this with other games and I'd prefer to not see it with a game I have literally invested about 90 days of my life into (O God, that stat is so sad).

Overall I have to agree with many of the high tier players, including Doublelift, about the state of the game. Moving forward, evolving & changing is all good... it really is, but sometimes it feels like you're moving forward too quickly or like you're simply throwing things at the wall too see what sticks. We don't need massive changes to jungle every season, we don't need huge system overhauls like the rune changes when the previous ones honestly SEEMED fine and really should have just been made more accessible to players, we don't need Dominion removed & we don't need beloved champions re-worked into something that COULD be them if you look at them from far away... and maybe in the dark, with that one street light shining down. I've had this frustration for a VERY VERY long time and it's starting to boil over, maybe this game just isn't really for me anymore.

I don't mean to sound overly negative with any of this, I am just honestly worried about the state of the game and wanted to give my two cents. I don't want to see it go the way of a few other online games. Also I am not blaming YOU (as in ghostcrawler) for all of this or even the majority of this, just wanted to be clear on that, because I know you all work in teams and no single entity is responsible for the "mess".

[sg-soraka]