Mid Year Mage Updates - Annie Direction

RiotCaptain Gameplay··1 votes·173,495 views

Since the last update, we've thrown a couple mages into the pile beyond our original six as ones to tackle. Enclosed below is your one way ticket to Tibber’s Tea Party. Don’t miss it.

One of League iconic duos, Annie and her bear Tibbers have gone through their fair share of updates as League has grown over the years. Throughout this, Annie has held on tight to her identity as a little pyro surrounded by gods and demons. Even the likes of Aurelion Sol is fated to die in a fire when matched up against a skilled Annie player. But while Annie has weathered well, her other half Tibbers isn’t living up to his fearsome potential. While Tibbers always makes a dramatic entrance, his contributions to the fight post-summoning aren’t always befitting the awesome flaming magic bear he is.

Things we especially like:

  • The flash bear drop. Annie’s bread-and-butter burst combo is a threatening affair that’s more about skirting the edges of Annie’s range than dodging a skillshot. While League benefits a lot from the potential to outplay most abilities in the game, having Champions with reliable abilities is also good for the game as long as they don’t make less-reliable champions obsolete.
  • High accessibility, high mastery curve. Despite being one of the easier champions to pick up, Annie’s performance scales dramatically with experience thanks her limited but sharp windows of opportunity.

Things we are working on improving:

  • Tibbers AI and Control. The current state of affairs re: summoning leaves much to be desired, reducing him to be League’s cuddliest walking sunfire cape. Tibbers is certainly a powerful ally, but commanding him beyond tanking a turret or walking towards your enemies often yields a less-than-satisfactory experience. Often, he’s left cancelling his basic attacks while Annie is busy slings spells.
  • Hiding power behind poor threat communication. Constantly checking Annie’s buff bar should not be the correct, or only way to know if she’s hiding a stun behind her next Molten Shield.
  • Throw-away Passive stacking spell. We’d like Molten Shield to have a use past “Pyromania Stack”.

What we hope comes out of the update:

  • Annie players should feel connected to and empowered when accompanied by their summon Tibbers. This will mean shifting some power out from Annie’s direct abilities into Tibbers himself.
  • Players matched against Annie should have better communication around when she’s most threatening and when she isn’t.
  • Molten Shield should have value as a powerful defensive ability on a mage; especially one that’s often bear-dropping into the thick of battle.

With this update, we’re finally answering that age-old question: Yes Annie, we have seen your bear Tibbers.

Best, Beluga Whale

725 Comments

Rock MD149 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beluga Whale,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=3IXxdZwi,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-26T19:17:25.629+0000) Things we especially like:

  • The flash bear drop.

THAT'S WHAT YOU LIKE???

Flash Bear drop is the only thing that keeps her from being an actual champion outside of solo queue because there's no legitimate counterplay to a proper flash Tibbers. It's disgusting and overpowered as hell and makes her a monster that increases Annie's range of effectiveness from ~700 (you listed having to skirt around this range being a problem) to ~1100 (so why is this something you like?). Meaning you're zoned any time she has so many stacks up or you eat her and her jungler's combo and you're pretty much dead with no way to react outside of being able to Cleanse Flash every time she flashes.

Hellioning30 votes

And what else does she have? It'd the only way she can engage against most teams; she's a short ranged, immobile mage.

Rock MD58 votes

{quoted}

And what else does she have? It'd the only way she can engage against most teams; she's a short ranged, immobile mage.

Nothing.

That's why she needs changes.

Stop putting power into the bear. Put it into the rest of her kit. The rest of her kit is what needs changes.

Bârd85 votes

Or put MORE power into the bear, but less into the summoning of the bear.

Seriously, once he is out, Tibbers is just kindof... there. He might tank a tower for a bit, or finish off some dumb squishy that walked into the aura at low HP, but the bear himself is not that impactful.

RiotCaptain Gameplay44 votes

If you mean to say that her ability to reliably catch out enemies means she won't be viable outside of solo queue, then this is wrong because a reliable catcher actually has incredible value - especially in coordinated/pro play where players can and will outplay any ability that it is possible to outplay. Reliable output actually has really high value.

This is not to say we are celebrating over the idea of Annie one-shotting you on Flash's cooldown - even small increases in Tibber's persistent power come at costs to upfront burst. Rather this is a defense of her ability to reliable engage on opponents who stray too close to her. Flash is inevitably a natural extension of that threat. Compared to similar in-class champions like Lux/Syndra (or Zyra/Brand/Velkoz for damage support threats) who can cc and delete you from 1000 units away without Flash, the fact that Annie's catch is not dodgeable is what allows her to function while being shorter ranged (not to mention having poor wave-clear when pressured). If Flash allows her to cheat this occasionally, well Flash allows a lot of people to bypass weaknesses built into their kits.

LankPants56 votes

If you mean to say that her ability to reliably catch out enemies means she won't be viable outside of solo queue, then this is wrong because a reliable catcher actually has incredible value

No, he's saying that you can't give her kit any real power because you insist on keeping her dumb-arse flash Tibbers combo. You can't make her an interesting champion because you allow for this bullshit to continue.

If you reduce the power of flash Tibbers you actually have some power budget to work with, right now the rest of her kit has to be garbage because of flash Tibbers.

Silverclaw26 votes

Yes, but those champions required you to be hit with long range skillshots - things you can dodge. In order to not die to Annie's burst, you have to either predict her flash and flash yourself or chain CC her properly before she can cast a single spell.

Z4659 votes

I know a lot of people still really hate the idea of her ultimate being instant, but that's not going to be my complaint.

I made a suggestion here on the boards a few months ago about how to give Tibbers more interaction with the rest of Annie's kit.

It's like you said: Annie is a One Stun Pony, and Tibbers is pretty damn pathetic after he's out on the field. He's only good for the immediate stun and nuke even though he lasts for up to 45 seconds afterwards. Worse is that she's 100% reliant on Flash, and even you guys clearly consider her worthless without it.

You have the technology to make Tibbers more meaningful.

So here's my idea: Make it so Summon: Tibbers cannot trigger Pyromania.

Use Tibbers to extend Annie's range, even further than Flash would allow. Give Tibbers the ability to cast Disintegrate and Incinerate.

If the target of Annie's Q is out of her personal range, but within Tibbers', the spell will be cast from Tibbers, and vice versa. Both would cast it if the target is in both of their attack ranges. Incinerate would always cast from both as normal.

If an unfortunate soul is caught between the two and hit by both, Disintegrate and Incinerate deal 180-200% damage. If the ratios are lowered to make up for that, maybe to 50-60% AP scaling on her Q and W down from 80 and 85% (meaning the increased damage would surpass her current scaling), this would still encourage Annie to get in a danger zone for maximum damage output, which is one of her current few weaknesses. The base damage staying the same would allow her to still farm as efficiently with her spells in the early game as she currently does, and remain effective as a support.

She can even be a safer ranged threat, even if that means the AoE and immediate damage is smaller by comparison. She could RW and still stun 2-3 people in Incinerate's cone immediately instead of being forced to Flash-R for an engage.

This would remove Annie's reliance on Flash and that horribly one-dimensional playstyle, as well as give Tibbers much more interaction and potential within her kit while keeping her current drawbacks intact. It might make things more difficult for new players to pick up, but you've already been doing that with Ashe and Garen, and restricting new players from using Flash keeps them from understanding Annie's threat level in the first place.

mk DILLY53 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beluga Whale,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=3IXxdZwi,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-26T19:17:25.629+0000)

Things we especially like:

  • The flash bear drop.

WHAT? This should be number one on your list of things you don't like! This is what makes Annie completely unfun for everyone but the person playing her and why everyone hates her. Her instantaneous, AoE, insanely high damaging, AND stunning combo is the primary thing that has always been broken on her. As long as she keeps it, there is zero counter play other than choose one of a handful of champions that can poke her out of lane and cs without getting anywhere close to her, which is also miserable for Annie. She has some of the most binary play in LoL and has very little counter play.

AT LEAST give her the Corki phosphorus bomb treatment and make her ult have a travel time. It would even be really cool to have her throw her toy bear into the middle of the enemy team and have it erupt into a flaming life-size bear. Sure, Annie mains might not like having this change, but neither do any mains when the thing that makes their champ have little counter play gets removed. Put her power somewhere else, but this cannot stay!

Frankly, there is no reason to even change her if you're not fixing her lack-of-all-counter play flash combo, and that one sentence in your post kind of makes me lose all hope in this remake.

Nefas46 votes

I don't understand how it isn't hypocritical to say that you like the flash-bear drop here when in Malz' Mage Update Riot said that a kit that relies on flash/acting as an assassin is unhealthy.

{quoted}

Because if this character needs to be played like an assassin in order to win, he's probably not healthy for the game. His only options are to walk up to or Flash up to someone and combo them, or to catch someone off guard (like in brush or something) and combo them. There are champions that are much better suited to do both of these things, and given Malzahar's kit, if that's what it took for him to succeed, he's probably just overtuned.

Why do you consider Annie "better suited" to do these things?

RiotCaptain Gameplay45 votes

Malzahar is different from Annie in multiple ways. This is not a comment on whether or not Flash plays should be allowed, but rather a comment on whether it makes sense for such a play to be so key or identity defining to a given Champion's impact on the game.

Malz flashing to combo+ult a target is bad because he is meant to offer something other than this, but ends up being balanced around it. Instead of a mage that cares about bouncing his DoT and maximizing it's usage for sustained DPS, you get a mage that only cares about killing one target as fast as possible.

Annie on the other hand, is a bursty mage that severely punishes mis-positioning. It makes a lot of sense, then, for her to feel especially empowered offensively by abilities that allow her to re-position (like flash)

Nefas72 votes

Is it really mis-positioning for someone to be withing 1100 units of Annie? If so, that's a problem.

Z4643 votes

I think a much bigger problem is that a summoner spell is considered core to a champion's identity, and that they're utterly worthless without it.

Not Thomas170 votes

I think the problem with Annie is that she has:

  • a reliable stun
  • insane range of that stun with flash up
  • incredible amount of burst damage
  • which is instant and almost impossible to dodge

Something has got to give..

If you keep that playstyle you will be stuck with the problem that Annie will be completely binary, something that riot usually tries to avoid. Also, I believe champions should not be balanced around summoner spells. You basically limit Annie to being useful once every 5 minutes.

I think Annie is one of those champions on which a large part of the community seems to agree is very frustrating to play against. I think it is wrong to try and save a champion identity, when the identity is the exact thing that makes a champion frustrating. (being flash tibbers, insane amount of burst, no counter play) Annie has enough other parts of her identity that you can build on instead, which would make her a far less binary champion.

On a side note, I would love to see Tibbers become like the badass from the cinematic (including spawn animation, rito please). Make Tibbers scary, make him leap, make him maul. Relocate the threat of Tibbers to him being alive, rather than stun+damage cast.

mk DILLY33 votes

This, in my opinion, is literally the best comment in here and needs to be seen. You hit pretty much everything that needs to be said in one comment.

Yuumi or Lose43 votes

Don't make her ult an insta stun pls. :(

Also, anything happening with Heimer? :)

AnimaticStranger8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Junkyard TrundIe,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=3IXxdZwi,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-03-26T19:34:54.239+0000)

Don't make her ult an insta stun pls. :(

Also, anything happening with Heimer? :)

Please Riot answer this man. Heimer is in a weird spot where he has a niche but that niche is frustrating for some match ups and laughable for some. By witch i mean he is toxic against people with no range/medium range but really easy to deal with if you have above average range. He has a niche but that niche is not realised to its fullest potential.

RiotCaptain Gameplay21 votes

We did some exploration on the Donger but unfortunately nothing seemed to really stick out well there. I don't believe we have any plans for him at the moment - sorry.

Slamurai Jack40 votes

Flash Tibbers is the part you like? It's the most problematic part of the champion. How you can list the most blatantly anti-fun part of the champion as the part you like the most is baffling to me.

Dragyen6 votes

now go watch these awesome clips of thresh/blitz/alistar doing same thing

Slamurai Jack14 votes

They all need to be in melee range and none of them 1 shot you. Try again.

Blackquill27 votes

Are you going to give Annies passive a decay over time? I know that she is supposed to be very accessible but having to play with the "she could drop it anytime now"-mentality once she hits lvl 6 and sits on her passive stacks for minutes(!) is surely annoying, especially in the botlane where she is not forced to farm with her spells.

Edit: Okay, a decay might not the best option but there should be something that Annie has to pay to maintain the threat of stunning someone. What if keeping 4th stack would drain mana until it is being used? It is not like Annie is super mana hungry with her Q refund anyway. (Disclaimer: Just an idea.)

RiotCaptain Gameplay35 votes

This is a neat idea, but it has a few issues:

  • Most other champions with their Ultimates ready already put out the pressure that they could use it at any time
  • This would make roaming or hiding in ambush with Annie a matter of spamming abilities constantly unless the decay time was trivial and it would just get reset in the lane pressure situation
Nefas10 votes
  • Most other champions with their Ultimates ready don't tend to be nearly as overbearing (Yes it is a pun) as Annie is in bot lane when she is strong.
  • So what? Why is that a problem? Annie should have more costs to sitting on a stun.
Worlds Best Gay32 votes

But the thing is, if she doesn't have the overbearing ult, she isnt really that useful. It is what actually makes her viable.

People want to stop the instant cast of her ult, or give her stun more of a cost, but realistically that would remove all of annies threat. She's short range, has decent cooldowns, only has 2 dmg non ult spells, and is basically reliant on flash for half the game.

Why would you ever pick annie without her stun, in a game that contains ahri, syndra, velkoz, xerath, and LB, who can all do annie level dmg, and CC but much more safely.

Annie support has the 3rd bottom winrate out of all supports. I think people slightly exxagerate annies power. It's ALL in her stun, if u mess around with it, she has nothing to fall back on.

Manwalrus13 votes

"high mastery curve."

Funniest thing I've heard all day.

RiotCaptain Gameplay21 votes

Win rate delta between first game and 50th is in the upper 1/3rd of all champions

LankPants8 votes

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/annie

You sure about that? Looks like it's scattered around the average at pretty much every point to me. She has a very low learning curve because by the time this graph starts at 20 games players are already capped out in terms of skill on Annie. The Delta between game 1 and 50 is unimportant because I guarantee you she has one of the smallest deltas between games 20 and 50.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/azir

For the record this is what a high mastery curve looks like.

You'd get a better idea of mastery by choosing a percent winrate increase and seeing how many games it took to reach that from the first game winrate. While I don't have acsess to the data to actually do this my guess would be that Annie would have one of the quickest growths in winrate out of any champion, which is what a learning curve actually is.

What your delta increase is showing is the difficulty of playing a champ in the first game relative to the difficulty of playing them in the 50th game, it is ignoring the actual curve in-between and where it caps off. My guess would be that for Annie it would start to level off at around the 5th game.

RiotCaptain Gameplay17 votes

We do have our own data @_@

Also unless I'm reading that graph wrong, it also claims that Annie has over a 57% win rate, as the lowest her winrate on that curve ever gets to is ~56.5%

LankPants6 votes

The graph isn't wrong, it starts at 20 games played. But what it does show is that by 20 games people have mastered Annie. That is an incredibly shallow learning curve. If you look at Azir's it continues to increase well past 20 games, all the way up to 100 games played. Other champs with steep learning curves like Syndra share these sorts of Azir like curves too while simpler champs like Sona who lack learning curves are more similar to Annie.

You just proved you aren't that great at stats though, because the first thing you should do when you see a graph is read the axis.

We do have our own data @_@

You don't make it public, so I can only counter argue with what I have.

RiotCaptain Gameplay8 votes

Ah okay I see what the graph is saying now.

Feel free to compare it with the graphs of other Champions. You'll find that a curve that cuts off the first 20 games actually ends up leaving most mastery curves pretty flat (1-3%). I understand the statement that Annie has a high mastery curve compared to a lot of other champions sounds weird, and this is explicitly because of how easy it seems to pick her up (which is something that is really cool about her).

I do find it funny you link Azir's. Yes he has an insane mastery curve - it causes all sorts of problems for him @_@. On a side note, look at Udyrs :). I remember FeralPony getting ridiculed for stating Udyr was a hard champ to master as well. It only gets steeper when you add in the 0-20 games.

Solideus9 votes

Are you adding a pre-impact indicator to Tibbers, a short one like on Orianna's R? Edit: As in an indicator and ~0.2-0.5 delay before Tibbers drops down.

RiotCaptain Gameplay27 votes

The delay on Tibber's spawn is so short that we don't believe it falls within the window of "dodge this ability". If you predict it and jump out of the way, that's great! But a pre-indicator could send the wrong message of "we expect you to be able to get out of this".

For context, Orianna's delay is .75s, compared to Tibber's .25s

Silver Sonance5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beluga Whale,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=3IXxdZwi,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-03-26T19:55:12.384+0000)

The delay on Tibber's spawn is so short that we don't believe it falls within the window of "dodge this ability". If you predict it and jump out of the way, that's great! But a pre-indicator could send the wrong message of "we expect you to be able to get out of this".

For context, Orianna's delay is .75s, compared to Tibber's .25s

I think an idea may be that Annie keeps her instant stun on R, but the damage is delayed instead. Sort of like her throwing her bear similar to the cinematic and tibbers being summoned. This would at least allow her teammates to shield the stunned players. However, it may make he weak to cleanses.

RiotCaptain Gameplay24 votes

We tried an iteration where the stun was instant, but this was ultimately a poor direction:

  • Players who were used to Annie's stun durations judge its length relative to when they cast the spell and the VFX/Animations - stunning at the start instead of at the end of the spell cast meant the stun actually felt shorter in duration, despite being stronger because it was instant
  • Disconnect between damage and stun effects "seemed" very glitchy within the context of gameplay
  • Shifting power to Tibbers the Bear is effectively the same thing as delayed damage
Desiderium19 votes

I just want to say I'm really proud of how intelligent the game designers and balance team are at Riot. I love how objective and intelligent you all are when it comes to the betterment of the game. I hope other game developers follow your example; being educated about their games rather than nerfing/buffing on whims or from community demand.

Having played this game a long time, and gained a deep understanding of the game, I can sympathize with a lot of the things you guys discover about the game and decide to buff or nerf or change, and I just want to say I'm proud of you guys for that, and for having such deep insight into the game. Keep up the good work, because I personally believe that every multiplayer game developer out there should aspire to balance their games with as much insight and foresight as Riot.

Desiderium6 votes

While we're looking at Annie, can we fix the bug with her cone spell where it damages and stuns enemies who become untargetable during its cast time/flash out during its cast time? It was done for Darius, and it still has to be done for Cho'Gath.

RiotCaptain Gameplay23 votes

Yes

Tychusfindlay9195 votes

It baffles me that champs like Annie are getting reworked when entirely useless champs like galio, yorick, and (against a half decent team) garen and a few others continue to rot away into uselessness outside of bronze league.

RiotCaptain Gameplay25 votes

These Mid Year Mage Updates are similar in line with the Preseason Marksman or the Juggernauts update. They are separate from large individual champion VGUs - like what Poppy/Sion/Fiora/GP got and what Taric is getting. "Entirely useless" champions like Galio and Yorick are much more likely candidates for VGUs rather than being included within these more bundled group updates, where they couldn't get the full attention and resources they would need.

IxtaliKing3 votes

I thought these threads were only for the big 6 :O. Does this mean you guys have decided on all the other mages who will be updated?

RiotCaptain Gameplay33 votes

Not all of them - many are still in the works. However we have upgraded a few (such as Annie) to be around the same scope of changes as the big 6, so we felt we should do similar messaging on them and get some player input.

UNFVCKINLEASHED4 votes

Is Kassadin supposed to be reworked?

Greetings

THESuperStuntMan12 votes

He is neither immobile nor a mage, so I doubt he's in consideration for this particular update.

ShadowParker3 votes

What's the reasoning behind adding more champions? Is it that Vel'koz was really easy to tackle and had extra room? Or is it that the big 6 are coming a long a lot easier then you guys had originally thought. OR. Is it that you decided she needed more to achieve the correct changes?

RiotReav321 votes

It was always the plan to look through the entire class and do small updates to more then the big 6. That's why they were called The "big 6." Some of the small updates have just become "medium" in scope rather the "small." Thus the direction posts. :)

Javazon1 votes

Annie's fine how she is. Gutting her so she can control her bear to do more sounds like it could go poorly. Why not make a new champion for this endeavor?

I'm all for fixing clunky things in champions but otherwise the old saying comes to mind. If it's not broken don't fix it.

Javazon6 votes

Or we can do this the Riot way. New Q! Skillshot that slows for 3 seconds! New W! A short dash that applies fire for 3 seconds! New E! 20 second cooldown that reduces cooldown on champion hits New R! Tibbers is summoned after a 3 second delay for C.O.U.N.T.E.R P.L.A.Y. After three auto attacks does %health damage New Passive ! Next ability stuns after 3 casts. Stun falls off out of combat. Damn this is easy.

RiotCaptain Gameplay46 votes

You forgot the true damage kappa

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