6.9 Balance, Cass and Swain especially

RiotMeddler·May 5, 2016·107 votes·51,366 views

Hey folks,

Just wanted to offer a quick comment on patch 6.9's balance. So far we're very much in the midst of assessing the balance state for a range of champions, items, objectives etc. Early next week's when we'll probably have enough of an initial handle on things to start talking somewhat concretely about patch 6.10 changes, for now we're focused on gathering stats data, watching games, following player discussions and getting some in game experience ourselves.

There are at least a couple of champs that are almost definitely in the wrong spot though. Cass and Swain both look substantially weak and we'll likely be hotfixing them soon (best guess - early next week). We want to avoid overbuffing though, so those changes will be on the conservative side, with the option of additional changes in patch 6.10 of course (we've overbuffed off early reactions in the past and want to avoid doing so here). We're also looking at some other champs that might be sufficiently weak or strong that they're hotfix worthy too, haven't got a clear enough picture yet on that though, particularly since in some cases item changes might be the appropriate response instead.

508 Comments

Cosmic WarperMay 5, 201672 votes

PLEASE PLEASE remove the delay on swain's ultimate. It feels terrible now that he stands still for like .25s to cast his ultimate. He's a champion that's meant to move around the battlefield and affect the whole enemy team. It makes his ult unnecessarily slow.

junglerboy16May 5, 20167 votes

That and they need to reduce the same target cooldown on the Ravens. It feels really bad to drain away a ton of your mana when you can barely get any actual damage and healing. It unnecessarily forces Swain to rely on full blown team fights and slashes his survivability in small skirmishes (i.e. only 2-3 people).

RiotMeddlerMay 5, 201638 votes

That'll be removed in the next patch. It was something we were testing internally at one point, decided was a good fit for the same reasons you mention, but then apparently failed to remove from the final build. Sorry about that.

Gated D LatchMay 5, 201646 votes

lol mathematically 6.10 < 6.9 but whatever

Reaper SorakaMay 5, 201610 votes

Someone downvoted because they don't understand basic math. fixed.

TwigglesMay 5, 201619 votes

But it isn't basic math. 6.9 isn't a decimal in this context. It's a number followed by another number.

DisulfiramMay 5, 201616 votes

Which I think was exactly the joke here.

RiotFeralPonyMay 5, 201619 votes

O_o

Doctor DymentMay 5, 201634 votes

Remember Meddler, patch's only been out for a day. While some people definitely need some number changes, much of the community is blowing a gasket over things that they probably haven't tested/played for more than a few games. Take everything these Boards say for a while with a few large clusters of salt as apposed to the normal solitary grain.

RiotFeralPonyMay 5, 201626 votes

It's something we're definitely keeping in mind. Most of the large changes in overall Winrate numbers have actually been on champions that actually haven't been directly touched at all despite most of the feedback being on the bigger changelists (for obvious reasons). It's tough for anyone to get a perfect complete picture of the ecosystem as we're seeing tons of experimentation in team comps, items, even skill builds (ex - plz max Q over E now on Swain now... plz plz plz). We'll be starting with the obvious outliers and moving deeper as things settle down a bit and all players, ourselves included, get a better grasp of where to move next.

TristyricMay 5, 201627 votes

Cass just feels bad to me now. There's a few major glaring issues but The biggest one has got to be her W.

I feel like the balance team greatly overvalued the power of this new grounded status. In doing so they took all of Cass's immobility and packed it into the W, making it in a sense more immobile than those it effects. The static casting range is the first thing that struck me as poor. W used to be a zoning tool, now its just a tool that creates a fixed zone at a fixed range. It has almost no skirmish potential in a team-fight. Prior to the changes W could be used at short range, allowing you to Proc you E and fight back during a skirmish, It also provided some counter-play against divers. Cass's other abilities remain so close range that the range demand of Miasma seems backwards. You throw your grounded zone, then for some reason need to get 'closer' rather than further. Considering she's rather fragile and no longer has the dueling power of her E that she had previously. I can't figure out any reason Cass wants to bring herself or her enemies closer. Whether its her need to get close to cast or enemies who want to avoid the grounded zone, she always ends up nearer to the center of the combat than her current incarnation can handle. The inability to cast it where you want it coupled with its inability to pass terrain, Also makes W a waste of mana in any mobile jungle skirmish. I just don't see how "Grounded" makes up for the sheer inflexibility of Miasma currently.

W does not poison you're opponents. Its become a debuff zone akin to Soraka's Equinox. All damage and E damage potential is gone the very second an enemy steps outside the zone. This made me honestly sad. Miasma wasn't the greatest damage dealing ability before but it was at least a poison. It had chase potential.

Speaking on chase potential, It has been greatly reduced for Cass. Her passive is weak and there was no considerations toward the stats on boots as far as early game power. For the Price of 4 MS per level, Cass has lost options such as item 3009 item 3020 item 3158 , with the loss of early game penetration as the biggest hit to her power not at all being covered by the increase in ratio's. ALL of these items are better than her passive for their movement speed alone in the early game not counting their additional effects. Were it that the only boots were these item 3675 then her passive 'might' be tuned relatively well. However this is not the case. Her Lack of MS is also pigeon holing her into buying other sources of MS whenever she is behind in levels. I just can't feel good about Cass needing to level up to remain mobile while other champions can buy their mobility. It feels like a punishment for having a bad early game.

Those are my biggest peeves currently. My opinion is that the overall feel of this rework leaves Cass overreaching. This incarnation tries to make Cass a skirmishing, DOT, Zoning, Anti-mobility, scaling mobility, Sustained damage AP Caster. Yet she's weak in all these aspects at the same time. If anything she has even less identity than before.

xl Kirito lxMay 5, 201625 votes

Don't hotfix Vladimir. I know a lot of people are going to disagree, and I'm honestly on the verge of doing so also. It looks like he got nerfed, both in his abilities, and his numbers, and he got a lot clunkier with the update. But there's enough potential where this could turn out like Fiora did. Hotfixed right after release, and proceeded to be a top tier pick for the next few months.

RiotMeddlerMay 5, 201644 votes

Vlad's one we're looking at a lot right now. We're seeing quite a lot of people struggling with him, what's optimal's changed quite a bit though, so there's going to be quite a bit of adjustment learning curve. Suspect if we did decide to hotfix (big if) it'd be something pretty small as a result (overreaction on Fiora's very much on our minds too).

My eeeeelMay 5, 201615 votes

You need to note that unlike fiora, who got every skill changed through remake, vladimir mechanic didn't change much except for E. Also, the win rate drop is more significant in high elo region where most people are familiar with his skillsets. He is not Kench, Naut or Echo. He has been top laner since season 1.

HennnsMay 5, 201632 votes

Please make it so vlad can aa during his e build-up. It feels so awkward to be unable to, and it's not a very big thing.

WoonStruckMay 5, 201610 votes

How about we remove the unintended clunkiness, like the increased Q animation, delay on damage, and heal. How about removing E ending W early. How making it so Q isn't canceled when you pool, and you still get the healing particle. How about putting W untargetability delay back down, as well as the delay before you can do anything (it feels like nearly a full second self-silence). How about fixing the bug where he takes non-dot damage during his pool again, because it seems to be back in some cases in my experience.

Mossy LungsMay 5, 201623 votes

Fix Cassiopeia entirely. You ruined her. She feels worse than ever, and very confusing on how to play/build.

Not A Cass MainMay 5, 201616 votes

very true. She now requires a team in situations where she could have handled herself. She is a sitting duck and relies FAR TOO heavily on other players doing what they are supposed to. I loved cass because if you kite right, build her right, and overall play correctly she is definitely the go to champ for hyper carrying. And you can pull off some AMAZING plays with her.

TesracMay 5, 201623 votes

Cassie feels so weak, right now. Yes, I understand that party of that is acclimating to her kit changes, but that passive..... So painful. It doesn't seem right that hey passive penalizes her, no one else's does that so I can't understand the reasoning behind it.

Her new Q range is, for lack of a better term, clunky and the change to her autocast makes it much harder to land an ability that was already challenging to hit with. This was already a high skill/high reward ability, but now if you land it there's no satisfaction since you will get at best one E in before they move out if range, or just close and kill you. With the decreased range it forces her to get way closer to anyone the Cassie ever wants to be and it's no longer a good tool to trade in lane.

Her W isn't a very effective tool note, yes you can block most of the width of a land with it, but the CD is just repressive and the grounded affect sounds cool, it's pretty meh in actual gameplay. Not sure if it's a bug, it intentional, but Amumu can use bandage toss from inside it's area with no problem, which seems counter to its function. The max range only cast and interaction with terrain as well as the loss of vision removed a huge amount of utility from the ability making it useful in very specific circumstances, but otherwise not desirable at all. Grounded might be more effective if it interrupted abilities that moved a champ into it, especially if you could cast it closer to yourself, but as I'd I'd rather just have a while new ability then what it is now.

Her E feels super clunky and the damage doesn't seem to have any significant impact early game even when the target is poisoned, maybe with a full build it wouldn't feel that way, but I can't get to a full build because everyone just walks up to her and kills her with impunity.

Her R was already only moderately useful since landing the stun is very difficult against anyone that knows her kit because of the casting time, now that you nerfed the slow by a third it's even less useful, not sure why you nerfed the slow, it wasn't at all game breaking or harsh.

Lastly her passive, taking away her stacking passive and replacing it with one that penalizes you while only giving move speed is pretty atrocious, especially because now the only late game spike you get out of it is a very slight advantage in move speed.

Please, please, please listen to the players, don't just tweak her numbers, give the whole kit a serious looking over, Cassie deserves better then this nerf to her entire play style.

SlythionMay 5, 201620 votes

Thanks for the update and communication Meddler (and Balance Team). We don't do a good job on praising you guys on the things you do right <3

Just a quick question:

What is Riot's stance on Malzahar Jungle having the same, if not more success than Malzahar Mid?

RiotMeddlerMay 5, 201621 votes

We don't want Malz jungle to dominate Malz's lane play to the extent it's the only sensible place to play him - he does interesting stuff in lane and a lot of Malz players are pretty attached to him there. Happy to see him in the jungle at around the same sort of effectiveness he had pre update though at least.

Looks like a DogMay 5, 201620 votes

please fix Anivia also :( Her ult is so damn garbage right now.

Derpy MikeMay 5, 201613 votes

Gotta love it early game when you have to spend half your mana bar channelling your ult for the 3 seconds required just to bring it up to the same size it was before they 'updated' it.

Also gotta love how much needlessly harder it is to land E+R combos before it's at max size. I'm actually sure that her frost slow doesn't even apply on the first tick on her ult any more, I could be wrong but that's defs what it felt like playing her yesterday.

Just undo the ult changes, jesus christ. The q and E changes are fine but the ult is so bad right now.

KemiousMay 5, 20168 votes

This a thousand times this Anivia's strenght and trading revolved around her ult. Now that its takes some serious ramp up time she's quite weak.

cocacolalipsMay 5, 201617 votes

Cassiopeia feels pretty miserable to play early on when she is outrun by everybody. Maybe make it so it doesn't take 12 bloody levels to finally move as fast as everyone else?

Not A Cass MainMay 5, 201616 votes

Please PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Help my cass!!!! I cried when I played her!!!!!!! I simply felt so weak! and my laning phase was absolute garbage!!

Not A Cass MainMay 5, 201620 votes

Heres my full rant about the cass changes!

OH hey look, cass cant kite anymore. WOOOO!!! IM SO GLAD YOU GUYS DID THIS. YAY! I played her and literally cried. I CANNOT do anything about a champ getting on top of me. her W IS FRICKEN USELESS its requires me knowing when a champ is going to move. and its Only use is chasing down a target thats trying to get away. Whoop de friggen doo. I Used it to make sure I DIDNT die and that I got away while substantially lowering my enemies hp. But now If anyone gets on top of me they just run around me laughing! for example. I just faced an ekko. Now normally, I would simply use my underneath me, while trying to back away as he dashes to me. but now my w doesent really stop him. because quite frankly its range is absurdly far. so he walks up, procs his speed boost, and stays next to me while I vainly try to ult (which now slows even LESS!!!) to get him off me, and then my q does damage, yay, but now my e has a huge cool down! OH NO. and now im dead because before I can cast e a second time (Where normally I could have done it maybe FOUR TIMES) I am dead. same for zed, fizz, talon, yasuo, yi,diana, orianna (because she can do so much more alot faster now) and any mobile champion in the game. Her w cooldown is too long, its too limited, and quite frankly does not do its job. Cass used to be able to 1v2 if she played it right, now she can barely 1v1. And god forbid she uses her e on a target that just left the range of her w because now it does 25% of the damage it is supposed to! the poison simply does not last long enough. And now, to stay afloat, I need to put cooldown reduction runes and masteries on, BUT WAIT. Cass wont do ANY MORE damage cause shes now weak as heck! And dont even get me started on the fact that her passive is no longer a good thing. I SURVIVED because of that passive, I did amazing with that passive. and now all I do is move slower for a longer period of time. I play this game for that champion, and I LOVE that champion. But now she does not even feel the same. Her q range has been shortened for no reason, her e range has been shortened noticably. and her w is basically fixed. And I now cant check bushes with my w, or check over walls to prevent getting ganked (YAY I WILL NOW DIE MORE!!! WOOOO). Tl:dr Ability range nerfs are rediculous NO vision granted by w over walls Easily ganked and easily killed due to extensive increased immobility E has no synergy with w anymore, and its significantly harder to cs without W keeping poison stack beyond its range 5.Must Spam q to stay in lane, and reduced ability to refund mana. E cooldown seems like it is helping bad players play her, which is not the point of cass. She needs to be unforgiving if you cant land her poison The unforgiving nature off cass is now her entire kit, she is useless by herself, and is no longer capable of out sustaining a lengthy fight.

TiowthyMay 5, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=life 1n death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FJvVsXyL,comment-id=002d0000,timestamp=2016-05-05T06:15:12.389+0000)

Ability range nerfs are rediculous NO vision granted by w over walls Easily ganked and easily killed due to extensive increased immobility E has no synergy with w anymore, and its significantly harder to cs without W keeping poison stack beyond its range 5.Must Spam q to stay in lane, and reduced ability to refund mana. E cooldown seems like it is helping bad players play her, which is not the point of cass. She needs to be unforgiving if you cant land her poison The unforgiving nature off cass is now her entire kit, she is useless by herself, and is no longer capable of out sustaining a lengthy fight.

Yeah, might as well change your main now. It's annoying, because they're "focused on gathering stats data, watching games, following player discussions and getting some in game experience ourselves." There was already so much discussion waaay before they even planned a re-rework, and did they really not play with her current kit? What a mess.
Though to be fair, IF she makes it to late game, she can be pretty strong-ish Sorry Riot. I may just be too heated atm, and I REALLY thought the new W grounded effect would be helpful...

Tentacle LoveMay 5, 201616 votes

Cass needs tenacity options, in case you missed it elsewhere. You deleted 100% of her items that offer tenacity. Just throwing this out there.

IboriMay 5, 201614 votes

Cass main here with a couple hundred games, I really don't like how Cass feels in 6.9. It just feels clunky, there is no reason for her E to be on a perma 1-sec cooldown. The damage that it does on a non-poisioned enemy is never worth using for the mana. It also feels harder to see if the enemy is poisioned. I'm seriously considering putting her down until some changes are made it just isnt fun to play her

VekknaMay 5, 201614 votes

Zyra

People need to specify that they are talking about SUPPORT Zyra feeling strong. And that feeling is limited entirely to early laning and siege defense. When - not if - she gets nerfed, she will be utterly unplayable in a solo lane just like everybody called from the second we heard "balanced for support."

When Zyra mains said they wanted more access to plants, that did not mean that we wanted the same damage to require 2-3 times the number of plants or that we wanted to be 100% reliant on them to function at all. Zyra's damage right now without plants is completely non-threatening. She can't even 1-shot caster minions with Q until super built.

At only 2 plants, she was straight-up nerfed; that's a fact, not a debate topic. So now any hope of a kill combo is 3+ plants, which means relying on passive, which means relying on luck and/or stupid enemies. Roaming is nerfed. Helping with skirmishes in river is basically pointless since you'll only have 1-2 plants and your own garbo damage.

The seed passive is annoying and unreliable. Half the time it places seeds behind me in bushes. Other times it places them in pathways. Occasionally it puts seeds in the direction of the enemy, which is generally good except that it often puts the seeds in immediate trample range, thereby wasting the seed altogether. Maybe 1 in 10 seeds actually goes somewhere I would actually place it.

The CDR on a bunch of new items does nothing to help Zyra since she's more reliant than ever on Liandry's + Rylai's to deal any damage, let alone threatening levels of damage. Before the update Zyra did enough base damage that she could afford to build a FQC or Morello first without making herself completely irrelevant until Liandry's. This is no longer the case, so we have to rush Liandry's + Rylai's and just deal with being the last champ in the game who doesn't have CDR.

All of that combines to make Zyra a slave to her passive. You need MORE plants to match her old damage. You have less access to CDR because gutted damage requires rushing items without CDR. Less CDR means fewer W seeds and control of plants, which brings us back to her ball-and-chain of a passive.

When we said we wanted more plants, that was true. The way to accomplish that would have been to give us more seed access and steeper diminishing returns on multiple plants attacking the same target. More zone control + more access to plants without totally breaking her damage.

Nobody wanted Zyra's ability damage trashed to junk-tier in exchange for a flock of RNG plants; literally nobody wanted that. Go back through any of the Zyra feedback threads that you didn't read or respond to and find a single suggestion asking for insultingly-low ability damage and RNG plants. It's not there because it's an awful idea.

I have 106 ranked Zyra games this season and had 211 ranked Zyra games last season. I fucking hate this update.

XxxLumberJackxxXMay 5, 201612 votes

@meddler plz... tell me you are at least glancing over karthus and laughing at his plight. Please tell me you remember he is in this game

Cpt Shaq SparrowMay 5, 201612 votes

I think you need to very strongly consider allowing Cassiopeia to cast her Miasma at any range. If you rush a hotfix on her for ratios or base damage or whatever then her play may go up, but if you let it all sit for a little while, I think you'll realize that letting her use Miasma at close range is the best thing to do.

The biggest complaints about the new Cassiopeia kit are clunkiness and her inability to fend for herself without teammates' help. A Miasma cast range change would go very far in solving both of those issues. I'm sure you designers at Riot agree that the priority is first to develop a kit that functions well and feels fun and fluid, and the second consideration is the numbers, ratios, etc. - also, once a kit has become "balanced" yet still contains problematic design such as clunkiness, then it becomes another challenge to add flexibility and then reduce power as well.

Her damage problems could be caused by item builds, etc. and with time, optimization of other things could cause her winrate to increase. However, those factors would still exist within a kit that does not have enough flexibility. Cassiopeia players would rather you take a little while and change the Miasma cast dynamic instead of just buffing some base damages or ratios and then see the winrate numbers go up.

Dasani MessiahMay 5, 201612 votes

I'm sorry but I can't help but to agree with what everyone else is saying as well. Last season I had over 300 games with Cass and 75% win rate. To be honest you guys completely butchered her.

For one, her E is essentially useless because of two things: the horrendously reduced Q range and the inability to use w in a desirable range. If you happen to get within range to land a Q you are likely so close to the enemy team that there is no room for counter play on your part, as the enemy has likely already moved too close for you to use your W and your E isn't doing as much as it used to to ward off enemies from approaching.

Another factor on the E is the change from the way it used to work. Instead of keeping Cass's trade potential (which was her biggest strength and outplay potential) you have now nerfed it so that trading with it is essentially out of the window. The 0.9 second cool down seems small but the extra 0.4 seconds ruins the cadence of Cass. You said you intended to keep her a high input champ but now it seems like I'm lucky to use one E before the enemy is on top of me or safely away.

The E needs to go back to the old way it was set up. Reward players for being able to land the poison and heavily punish those who refuse to learn how to land the Q. You also need to immediately fix the range on the Q, E, and W so that Cass can be viable again.

Further it is incredibly annoying that your initial E after a Q does not account for the extra damage all the time. This needs to be fixed.

I miss the old days of the Cass that rewarded skillful players with the opportunity to kite and trade. Now we have a sitting duck that throws out 3 spells and then is cannon fodder for the enemy team.

Please Riot. Make this right. Cass is my favorite champ.

P.S. Early game mana costs and damage will surely be addressed by most, but it is these changes that absolutely frustrate me.

Edit: grammar

TL;DR Revert abilities to old ranges and cool downs, make cass great again

ThwartinMaPlansMay 5, 20168 votes

This person is right in so many ways Cass has been gutted. Her w is abs. dog shit now.

Power CosmicMay 5, 201611 votes

Cass is a sitting duck atm. Swain's most consistent and potent laning tool is now substantially less reliable (E + Q). Probably would be best to revert until new spells can be designed.

LankPantsMay 5, 20165 votes

There are at least a couple of champs that are almost definitely in the wrong spot though.

Would that be Shyvana and Yi by any chance?

RiotMeddlerMay 5, 201620 votes

Yi looks pretty likely yeah on the weak side, less sure on Shyvana so far. In terms of too strong Malz is the standout, though Kass is also a possible culprit (the item changes were really good for him).

JMoormannMay 5, 201638 votes

Is it also a possibility that Kassadin is a bit stronger because he is an anti-mage (passive + Q shield + blink), and there are a lot of (unexperienced) mage players right now, making someone like Kass look quite a lot stronger than he actually is.

ImmortalBloodCYMay 5, 201612 votes

Agreed, I would wait and see before buffing/nerfing Kassadin.

At high Elo alot of people know how to counter Kassadin and shut him down but at very low elo alot of people dont thus they are making Kassadin look quite alot stronger.

RiotMeddlerMay 5, 201619 votes

Definitely. Pretty sure Kass's performance will be being helped by a range of things right now, with plenty of mage players, many new or rusty, contributing to it.

I'm still suspicious he'll end up being too strong in the long run, that's very much a personal estimate though, not something we'd act on instantly.

Sythriel DrakenMay 5, 20165 votes

item 3124 Vayne Cough Cough... Hell, in general is WAY to strong right now on certain champions still with the phantom hit.. honestly should just disable it for the integrity of the game

RiotMeddlerMay 5, 201623 votes

Not seeing issues with Vayne yet, it's early days though certainly. Maybe that'll change as people adapt and use Rageblade, maybe she'll continue to be fine.

Troll for TrumpMay 5, 201610 votes

Yeah saw a vayne doing it...it didn't work well. She has to get close to get the stacks, and can't fire from afar like Kog and Trist(who still do abuse it, but that's been the way for a while, especially with the former)

Vayne puts herself at too much risk to effectively use it. If you have the mechanics to do so good with her and be able to survive and kite so long, just rush Botrk instead of Rageblade..

ViashinoWizardMay 5, 20164 votes

Where would you be looking to add power to Swain, specifically?

RiotFeralPonyMay 5, 201619 votes

We're still working on deciding what to do/if we want to do Swain changes before 6.10. It's super early still and we want to get a bit more data and see how he's doing before making a firm call. One change we are looking at doing for 6.10 though removing the stopping when casting the ultimate, which was an unintentional add, (it was a holdover from an earlier changelist. Sorry guys :( ) That change specifically won't be in until 6.10 though due to the different types of changes we can do in hotfixes vs full patches.

Linna ExcelMay 5, 20164 votes

Is it possible that Cass is in a bad spot because you guys changed too much on her and made her too hard for the players to relearn and play well on the first day?

Not A Cass MainMay 5, 201610 votes

shes in a terrible spot. Ive mained her since I started (and would likely have more than 1m+ mastery on her....) and she is simply garbage in lane. she is LITERALLY A sitting duck, she cant do anything when someone is on top of her at all.

WinBoatMay 5, 20163 votes

Ok, I'm a Fiddlesticks hater, but do you think you made him worse, or what? Do you think his passive numbers could be tweaked?

RiotMeddlerMay 5, 201612 votes

Moderately sure he's noticeably stronger, like most champs that aren't massive outliers big question mark there though still (need more than one day to assess most changes with any confidence).