Mid Year Mage Updates - Malzahar Direction

RiotRiotRepertoir··1 votes·186,649 views

Hi all,

Though we're still a good amount of time from their release, I wanted to put up a quick post about the kinds of things you can expect from the mid season update to Malzahar. To start, I'd like to point out that this will not be an exhaustive list of the exact mechanics changes or numerical changes you can expect to see in the update, as that is all still pending. Instead, I hope that informs interested parties in the kinds of things they can expect to see.

A few weeks back, Statikk put up a post introducing the mages we plan to address in the mid season update. From that post, and a variety of others (usually player created), we've been able to identify a bit more specifically the areas we'd like to work on Malzahar and the kinds of issues we'd like to address for him specifically. The community has been a big reminder to me, and I believe Riot more holistically, that these smaller scale updates cannot take a "one size fits all" approach, and that we need to be cautious about biting off more than we can chew, so to speak.

With that out of the way, let's get into the directional plan for Malzahar, a plan that I hope is fitting to the community's vision for Malzahar, fitting to Riot's vision for Malzahar, and true to coolest and most beloved elements of Malzahar that players enjoy him for. Generally speaking, Malzahar is a relatively low agency champion by virtue of his limited range and mobility. In order for him to succeed as he is on Live, he's balanced around being able to pretty reliably drop a full spell combo on whatever's in front of him and watch them die. We'd like to make it so he doesn't necessarily feel quite so much like a burst champion, but in order to make that happen, we need to give him a bit of breathing room so that it feels like he can comfortably navigate the fast pace game that League of Legends is today.

  • Here's some stuff we're happy with about Malzahar and are unlikely to change:
  • Functions well as a reliable anti-mobility/anti-assassin via Nether Grasp (R).
  • Has really fun/unique farming patterns via Malefic Visions (E).
  • Here's some stuff we're less happy with and are actively trying to resolve:
  • A simple W>E>R is often enough to eliminate or remove enemies, leaving them little opportunity to act outside of not getting into his range.
  • Malzahar is inherently low agency, and is historically balanced in a way that means he forces similarly low agency situations upon opponents.
  • Voidlings are a cool and unique element of the kit that often don't play a large role in his success throughout the game (AD Malz aside).
  • Here's what I hope (these designs are still in progress) will be true of Malzahar following his changes:
  • Malzahar's kit will feel familiar to Malzahar players; he has a lot of cool spells/visuals, and we don't want to change that.
  • Malzahar will feel less like a burst caster to everyone.
  • Malzahar will continue to be low range and low mobility, but he will feel less vulnerable.
  • AP Malzahar players will care about using their Voidlings correctly.
  • AD Malzahar will still be a decent option.
  • Malzahar's kit will have clearer signals for how he could have played better and/or how opponents could have played better against it.
  • Playing Malzahar still won't be a mechanically intense/exhausting experience.

I've got to get going. This was something I decided to do somewhat randomly, so if anything is unclear, please do let me know and I'll try to respond. I'm going to be away for the next several hours, but I'll check in tonight/tomorrow. If anything, I hope this post helps to inform everyone what our perspective on Malzahar is, so if there's anything that seems way off or overly concerning, please do let me know.

Cheers, Repertoir

632 Comments

Malicious Metal126 votes

Let me just tell you that the way you're handling it just shows how much you guys have grown since you started with the roster updates. The way you're actually assessing which parts of a champion's kit and theme are important to the player base and which ones can be improved is a great way to truly make a perfect rework.

And yet you don't blindly follow the direction some mains would want but instead actually analyze issues of game health and other kinds of things that may be iconic for the character to some degree but simply not supportable in today's League of Legends.

Keep up the good work Repertoir!

Nebuul41 votes

The TLDR reads like this:

  1. We want Malzahar to be low range/low mobility as he is currently, but not a burst mage anymore so his matchups won't be so binary.
  2. We like his space aids and his hurrrbeam.
  3. We want his voidlings to be effective on AP builds
  4. We want his AD builds to still work

So the very concise TLDR: We're removing his silence and suppression. We're going to give a debuff to his ult so that he should win trades when using it, but it is escapable if the opponent chooses to run out-of-range.

RiotRiotRepertoir54 votes

Damn dude, stop leaking stuff.

AMYS GRAVE30 votes

I think his silence is a big part of why he counters some assassins, losing that will hurt.

Esariah14 votes

I agree 100%. I'm all in favor of changing the suppression to something a little less binary, as I find it to be unrealiable at best, and a bad mechanic at worst, and that's either giving or receiving.

Further, the silence in his Q is what makes Malzahar have any value in a team fight, short of catching a carry out of place with a combo.

AMYS GRAVE22 votes

Its odd because i think of his suppression as part of his anti-assassin pattern. Its part of what makes diving him so punishing. he's one of the few champions who gets to say "sit down, shut up, you cant dive our team 1v5 and escape" You try to assassinate someone while malz has his cooldowns and you're gonna die. He punishes over aggression which is why i love him, and i think the suppression on his ult is part of that.

Frnak6 votes

{quoted}

Its odd because i think of his suppression as part of his anti-assassin pattern. Its part of what makes diving him so punishing. he's one of the few champions who gets to say "sit down, shut up, you cant dive our team 1v5 and escape" You try to assassinate someone while malz has his cooldowns and you're gonna die. He punishes over aggression which is why i love him, and i think the suppression on his ult is part of that.

This and the silence.

He's going to either be burst or he's going to retain his silence/suppression.

Everyone will scream nerfed to hell until he gets base values updated (cause rito is scared of releasing a monster... looking at you Xin).

Hellioning27 votes

Okay, seriously, thank you so so so much for doing this. Please tell me you and your colleagues are doing this for every update, it's absolutely neccesary IMO.

As for Malz specifically: I have no problems with...basically anything you said. The only thing I'm worried about are the stuff about 'signals'. This, to be, sounds like you're either changing his ult to be conditional or just changing it entirely. I really like his ult, so I'm kinda worried there. I do understand the game health issues, but there's just nothing more fun as Malz to have two voidlings attacking someone with all your DoTs on them. Their health just kinda melts.

Nefas9 votes

The way I read this is that Malz's combo will be more about locking someone down with R while E ticks away and voidling gnaw instead of the massive burst he has right now. Essentially moving him away from his assassin/burst elements, which I think is fine.

RiotRiotRepertoir17 votes

The only thing I'm worried about are the stuff about 'signals'. This, to be, sounds like you're either changing his ult to be conditional or just changing it entirely.

As with most of these roster updates, there are likely to be numbers changes across the board to balance things out and make it all make sense, but we're aiming to keep Nether Grasp pretty similar mechanically.

Tortferngatr5 votes

Would "making Nether Grasp tenacity--proof silence and '90% true slow (i.e. their movespeed is more like 32-35 than 126-127)' an enemy for its duration instead of suppressing" be in the realm of possibility for Nether Grasp changes?

RiotRiotRepertoir26 votes

It would be possible, though allowing enemies to basic attack through it would be a huge change that I don't think most Malzahar players would appreciate.

Tortferngatr6 votes

I realized that after I posted that--so if a Disarm effect were also included, it would be possible?

Atanchan13 votes

Sounds like that could tie right into Polymorph, just minus the model swap.

SquareClock2 votes

Why minus the model swap? Maybe some cool void visuals can make this ult perfect.

500000000000000010 votes

Well, as the Prophet of the Void you don't want to turn your enemies into cupcakes.

Homemade Pasta22 votes

A simple W>E>R is often enough to eliminate or remove enemies, leaving them little opportunity to act outside of not getting into his range.

Doesn't this describe every assassin in the game?

The Yetii Rider15 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't this describe every assassin in the game?

Yes. Assassins do not have 3 second AOE silences and 2 second suppression effects. Malzahar is not an assassin, therefore he must have counterplay.

RiotRiotRepertoir14 votes

Doesn't this describe every assassin in the game?

Possibly, but we'd like it if Malzahar functioned more as a sustained damage threat than an assassin in the long term. He'll need some tweaks to make that a reality or worthy trade-off, however.

Stevev454 votes

Why would you like that? It seems very disruptive for little to no gain.

RiotRiotRepertoir23 votes

Because if this character needs to be played like an assassin in order to win, he's probably not healthy for the game. His only options are to walk up to or Flash up to someone and combo them, or to catch someone off guard (like in brush or something) and combo them. There are champions that are much better suited to do both of these things, and given Malzahar's kit, if that's what it took for him to succeed, he's probably just overtuned.

Frnak11 votes

{quoted}

Because if this character needs to be played like an assassin in order to win, he's probably not healthy for the game. His only options are to walk up to or Flash up to someone and combo them, or to catch someone off guard (like in brush or something) and combo them. There are champions that are much better suited to do both of these things, and given Malzahar's kit, if that's what it took for him to succeed, he's probably just overtuned.

I play him as anti-engage anti-assassin. I sit just out of range to be seen and punish those who dive onto teammates. It's like. AP Support Mage Deathiness. There's been games where they aggressively dived me because of my disruptiveness and damage. It proved useful most times. :v

Nefas18 votes

So:

R to stay E to stay Voidlings to stay

I'm happy.

Honestly, if AD Malz went away but the same voidling-based play style was applied to AP Malz, I would still be satisfied. I play both AD and AP Malz, but its not about the items, its about the voidlings doing tons of damage while you lock people down. Though AP itemization right now doesn't work as well as AD for a Malz-voidling based style.

RiotRiotRepertoir10 votes

Though AP itemization right now doesn't work as well as AD for a Malz-voidling based style.

Perhaps, though Rylai's could give them some nice sticking power for the Voidlings given how well it is applied by Malefic Visions. We could also explore things like the Voidlings getting some of the Health and/or Resists that Malzahar builds, and there are certainly some good AP/Defense item options out there.

ploki12218 votes

Plz make Zz'Roth viable on Malzahar so we can have the One True Void King build!

RiotRiotRepertoir18 votes

That would be pretty sweet.

GhostOnix13 votes

So with the mage update can we just remove QSS from the game? It'll make for a lot more interesting things where people don't just have no ult because someone decides to use their QSS in the middle of a fight. Really annoying to ult someone and then they just QSS it and I'm stuck doing nothing for the most part...

RiotRiotRepertoir21 votes

So with the mage update can we just remove QSS from the game?

We've talked about QSS a bit as we began exploring these mages. Hopefully we can either get the item to a spot where it's still useful but not quite so hard-counter-y, or at least get some of the mage kits to a spot where they're not so hard countered by it.

La Bello5 votes

{quoted}

We've talked about QSS a bit as we began exploring these mages. Hopefully we can either get the item to a spot where it's still useful but not quite so hard-counter-y, or at least get some of the mage kits to a spot where they're not so hard countered by it.

wouldnt it be alot simpler to make suppresion effects apply a silence so people cant QSS out of ults?

Shadòw4 votes

qss removes silences too

Solidair37 votes

Yes, yes yes. Run with this direction.

I just want to be able to function even if the enemy team has it on every champ.

Retillin7 votes

Malzahar will continue to be low range and low mobility, but he will feel less vulnerable.

I hope this doesn't mean he'll be a SAFE champion. Kindred/Tahm/ect. are very frustrating to play against. So I hope he'll be "safer" than other mages (if you go that route) but not a "safe champ".

RiotRiotRepertoir12 votes

So I hope he'll be "safer" than other mages (if you go that route) but not a "safe champ".

I'd say this is what we're aiming for. I think it would be a pretty weird character mismatch (both thematically and from class strengths/weaknesses perspectives) if we turned one of his spells into some kind of on-demand lifesaver or something.

R3p0r7M37 votes

AD malz ... Riot is so funny sometimes!

Alphadef62 votes

AD Malz is already a thing.

LilQuacker1 votes

In urf

Alphadef12 votes

And in normals. It just isn't very common.

Oblivious Denial10 votes

You need to try AD Malz jg then.

Alzon8 votes

The Level 3 Solo Dragon is very easy to do and rewarding. Get your buffs plus wolves, back for mana crystal with pots and a pink ward, then eat that silly reptile.

X8ViEhkPS04 votes

I'm confused on how Malzahar feels like a burst caster. His kill patterns are so extended, even with his kill combo it still takes time. And in the later stages of the game where he uses his ult for lock down his kill patterns are more focused on his teammates setting up E bounces. Lock down for his Q and W to work.

RiotRiotRepertoir24 votes

I'm confused on how Malzahar feels like a burst caster.

Yeah, that was a little vague, I agree. Rather than saying that, possibly I should have said something like "Malzahar's burst vs. sustained damage output should feel less like Annie's and more like Karthus' than it currently does."

Hope that's clearer.

Stevev457 votes

How is Malz supposed to stay alive to take advantage of sustained damage with low range?

RiotRiotRepertoir14 votes

Base stats? Item synergies? More defensive capabilities? Better lockdown? I'm not really sure which at the moment, but something along those lines seems like it would be important for that to at all be a fair tradeoff.

Linna Excel4 votes

a plan that I hope is fitting to the community's vision for Malzahar, fitting to Riot's vision for Malzahar, and true to coolest and most beloved elements of Malzahar that players enjoy him for.

Not a Malhazhar question specifically but how do you personally take on a challenge where maybe rioters and the players don't see eye to eye or where there's disagreement within the players about what a champ is? I've noticed individual champs can have a wide variety of definitions of what this champ means to me.

RiotRiotRepertoir17 votes

Not a Malhazhar question specifically but how do you personally take on a challenge where maybe rioters and the players don't see eye to eye or where there's disagreement within the players about what a champ is? I've noticed individual champs can have a wide variety of definitions of what this champ means to me.

Personally, I'm just trying to do my homework on what players love about the character and what absolutely does/doesn't need to go, and then hoping that goes a long way toward making a champion that is more healthy/fun while meeting player expectations. I think a big part of this is the realization that since this isn't a brand new champion we're dealing with, moving him from a 4/10 to a 7/10 (or whatever the correct numbers would be) as far as game health goes can still be a really good update. I think in the past when we've overstepped and tried to make absolutely perfect champions, we've made some odd decisions that involved a lot of compromises to the existing champion. Being comfortable with the amount of change we're aiming for and the amount of resources we're putting into it (these aren't full kit overhauls) should help to focus on the stuff that's most important.

AMYS GRAVE8 votes

Personally, I'm just trying to do my homework on what players love about the character and what absolutely does/doesn't need to go, and then hoping that goes a long way toward making a champion that is more healthy/fun while meeting player expectations.

I don't think we can thank you enough for this.

Typhoid Burrito2 votes

No. Do not put AD ratios of any kind on Malz. Just make him AP and be done with it.

RiotRiotRepertoir32 votes

No. Do not put AD ratios of any kind on Malz. Just make him AP and be done with it.

I wouldn't plan on us turning all his spells into dual scaling, but AD Malz has always used Voidlings extensively, and it would be great to keep that around.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't plan on us turning all his spells into dual scaling, but AD Malz has always used Voidlings extensively, and it would be great to keep that around.

If ap malz is going to care more about his voidlings I'm not clear why you need ad malz anymore

Duke Anax5 votes

The idea is that Voidling won't feel useless on AP malzI think the idea is that AD Malz will still be the Voidling master, while they will just feel not useless on AP Malz.

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