The Preseasoning: Day 1 Open Forum Discussion

RiotPWYFF··22 votes·394,934 views

You've read the excellently written dev blog: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/preseason-2016-crests-horizon

You're not here to ask opinions posed as questions, because that will make me sad.

Otherwise it's an open forum for now.

Hi, how are you all.

I'D LOVE IF YOU COULD GO THROUGH THE DEV ANSWERS FOR CONTEXT BEFORE ASKING QUESTIONS PLEASE

Additionally, this is probably not the place for everyone to ask for specific champion buffs.

[edit] I'M LOCKIN' THIS FOR TONIGHT. SEE YOU TOMORROW.

926 Comments

Meep Man17 votes

Can you give us a 3-6 word description of the aim for each Marksman updated? (Ex: Tristana- Tower Busting, Rocket Jumping Hyper Carry)

Also, is it true that Tristana can outrange towers now?

Also, can you give us an example of a keystone mastery to help us gauge the power of each of them?

RiotRiot Scruffy71 votes

Yea this is a great question. Here's the high level points for each:

Caitlyn

  • The zone control marksmen (traps are on a charge system now)
  • New play feel with headshot combos (trap and E trigger a guaranteed headshot on the target)

Miss Fortune

  • The wombo combo marksmen (ult scaling way better, can crit)
  • New play feel with impure shots replaced with "love tap" new passive that gives bonus damage when swapping targets (this works well with Q)

Kog'Maw

  • The true glass cannon hyper carry (tons of dmg needs protection)
  • W now doubles ALL attack speed and allows him to break the attack speed cap (but ad is lowered to 60%)

Corki

  • Magic damage marksmen -> passive now does big magic damage instead of true and all spells now do magic damage
  • New mechanic: Special Delivery -> every ~5m in the game corki gets a special set of bombs in his base that allow him to cast a super mega W with much bigger range and impact

Quinn

  • The map mobility/roaming marksmen
  • R reworked as a utility focused spell -> 0 cooldown and gives quinn crazy out of combat speed to quickly move around the map, not used for assassination anymore

Graves

  • We finally made his shotgun a shotgun -> up close burst damage marksmen
  • Basic attacks fire multiple buckshots in a cone -> more damage up close
  • Q reworked to synergize better with the new basic attacks
Spοοk5 votes

really looking forward for corki now

Jack º2 votes

every 5 mins... this boost better be op, because corki is like one of my fav <3

RiotRiot Scruffy15 votes

When he picks up "The package" he gets a homeguard like buff to help him find a fight/gank.

The "special delivery" (the mega W cast) is basically this:

  • 3x range of normal Valkyrie
  • Has a knockaside when it hits enemies
  • Damage zone is way more dangerous + it has a slow
  • Normal W is put on 0 cooldown after he casts it (to let him reposition)

So this ability is best used to separate a team fight or trap enemies in bad positions.

Sedim11 votes

{quoted} Graves

  • We finally made his shotgun a shotgun -> up close burst damage marksmen
  • Basic attacks fire multiple buckshots in a cone -> more damage up clost
  • Q reworked to synergize better with the new basic attacks

I love the fact that you guys are playing around with changes to the standard auto-attacks. First Kalista's auto-strafe and now actual shotgun.

midorii14 votes

{quoted}

Yea this is a great question. Here's the high level points for each:

Caitlyn

  • The zone control marksmen (traps are on a charge system now)
  • New play feel with headshot combos (trap and E trigger a guaranteed headshot on the target)

Miss Fortune

  • The wombo combo marksmen (ult scaling way better, can crit)
  • New play feel with impure shots replaced with "love tap" new passive that gives bonus damage when swapping targets (this works well with Q)

Kog'Maw

  • The true glass cannon hyper carry (tons of dmg needs protection)
  • W now doubles ALL attack speed and allows him to break the attack speed cap (but ad is lowered to 60%)

Corki

  • Magic damage marksmen -> passive now does big magic damage instead of true and all spells now do magic damage
  • New mechanic: Special Delivery -> every ~5m in the game corki gets a special set of bombs in his base that allow him to cast a super mega W with much bigger range and impact

Quinn

  • The map mobility/roaming marksmen
  • R reworked as a utility focused spell -> 0 cooldown and gives quinn crazy out of combat speed to quickly move around the map, not used for assassination anymore

Graves

  • We finally made his shotgun a shotgun -> up close burst damage marksmen
  • Basic attacks fire multiple buckshots in a cone -> more damage up close
  • Q reworked to synergize better with the new basic attacks

This is all beautiful, champs are becoming more than just 'does x damage to x player'. Champion specific playstyles are becoming more defined, and possibly further so with these new Keystone masteries.

Oh, what a day... what a lovely day~

RiotRiot Scruffy25 votes

Thanks! I'm glad you're excited. A big learning we had from our first go on this style of update (the juggernauts) was that we wanted to aim towards "playstyle" like you say rather than mechanics that feel too much like "mini games"

Ant155 votes

But will Graves now get a cigar?

The Sad Moon Boi14 votes

Before I start commenting (raging) on Quinn changes, I will just say I do not have a PBE account, so I'm posting here instead.

Quinn just got destroyed with these changes. Just leave her alone if possible please.

I've been a diehard Quinn main since she was released, and I loved her uniqueness. Her dueling potential against other AA based champions (due to her blind) was really unique and amazing, and the assassination pattern on an ADC it just amazing to have with the ult+all spells with an auto attack.

With these changes, you removed what Quinn is. You removed her core gameplay. I wouldn't even mind if you removed the blind but added dueling power against ADC elsewhere (like you can dodge a set number of AA or something like old Fiora W), because that is who Quinn was. She was one of the best duelers against AA based champs, and one hell of an assassin with her ult. Now, both things just got removed.

Lets see the change list, shall we?

Passive: I actually like what you have done with it, it is the only thing you did right.

W: Unchanged, which is fair. Two charges on the active would be nice, but this way is just fine.

E: I just hope it got bugfixed, no need to change anything else tbh.

Q: Ok just please no, by removing the blind you removed her uniqueness. And besides now it's just a regular plain skillshot that deals damage. Boring af. Also gets a harrier mark on the enemy, which isn't bad but still just meh. You removed the core thing that made her interesting. Now it is just basically a plain skillshot. Wow, interesting. Her damage may be up, but honestly you have no idea how much does the removal of her blind change her gameplay and most importantly matchups. Literally all matchups are COMPLETELY different because of it. Vayne used to be a problem? Just blind her, and you can kill her. Perhaps maybe Sivir? No problem, wait for her spell shield to end and blind her. Now, just no. This changed her core gameplay as Quinn. It was crucial to hit the blind in order to successfully kill the enemy ADC, and it offered great gameplay since you needed to be smart about using it. Now it is just deal damage or don't deal damage, while before it is mostly for utility. I wish the blind stays, or some kind of defense against AA for Quinn additionally (maybe immune to AA after her E or something?).

R: Okay this is where I'm just done with it. You changed the thing that mostly made Quinn... well Quinn. Her attacks at Valor form were something really interesting and unique, that no other champion had. Her attacking and positioning in Valor form were unique to Quinn, and it truly felt amazing. Her assassination pattern was unique for Quinn (well, not really but unique for an ADC), and I loved every bit of it finishing the enemy off by vaulting in Valor form. It felt so great as a Quinn player, while it also required skill to survive after it if you are in a group of enemies (use R right after E right before you hit the enemy so the skystrike hits him but you as Quinn vault back). It was amazing, feels like you did something awesome and yet it still had counterplay and wasn't unhealthy for the game. Now, what is this? An ability? Honestly Rammus Q is more interesting than this. Basically a movement speed buff? For real? I bet the skystrike doesn't even deal damage. And earlier it didn't even deal much damage but it still felt good to use. Not more an assassination tool, which I miss the most on Quinn since that was the most fun part of Quinn as a whole.

Of course Quinn had her problems and weaknesses. AA range was one, but with the Vault and Blind it was manageable. Yes, the passive is unreliable, but also unpredictable (unless of course using E) and it was really just fun. Her E basically let enemies free damage her, in trade for massive dueling power/utility against a single target. Her assassination pattern was really amazing to have as an ADC. I really love playing ADC, since it's my main lane and basically fits who I am. But I also enjoy assassins, even though I'm not that great at finding opportunities to strike multiple enemies. Quinn made both things possible in the same time. I would play the classic ADC marksman with dueling power I love to play, while I could just switch to assassin mode to finish the enemy. It made Quinn fun, and mostly Unique. Now Q is just a bland damage skillshot, and the ult is basically a movement speed buff (wow). I honestly hope you can give something of her old self back.

Here are some of the changes I would recommend in order to keep the old Quinn feel back:

  • You could possibly make her dodge a few AA after using Q or E, but hitting an enemy (or more if it is Q). It would make Quinn feel more like a duelist. Or just simply make Quinn immune to AA of enemies hit with Q herself so she can still duel.

  • Possibly make E usable from R form, but getting in melee range and get her immune to the target's AA? Maybe for a set time, or for a certain number of AA, but anyway it would bring back the old Quinn feel, both as an assassin (since you would hit your Q 100% for execute), and as the amazing duelist.

  • Make Valor instantly target enemies after using her

Of course this is all just speculation with the given info leaked. Since I really love Quinn and who she is, I wouldn't like her identity as a champion to get removed. I hope some of the duelist/assassination playstyle still stays. Thank you for reading (if you did xd) and I really hope I can get an answer.

Also would like to hear from you, was it your intention to remove the duelist/assassin playstyle and why if it was. Honestly it can be hard to balance, but since Quinn was rather on the weak side due to her natural low range and squishyness,

RiotAD Yuumi38 votes

Also, can you give us an example of a keystone mastery to help us gauge the power of each of them?

Sure I'll give you my favorite >:)

Thunderlord's Decree Your 3rd attack or spell on an enemy champion shocks the area around them, dealing 10 damage per level plus 20% of your Bonus Attack Damage and 10% of your Ability Power as Magic damage to enemies in the area (30 second cooldown).

Ginjor60 votes

I'm not at all surprised that your favorite mastery is a three hit effect, Gypsylord :P

RiotRiot Scruffy40 votes

LOL he walked right into this one!

Agidyne17 votes

Graves!

How will Graves interact with the Hurricane?

Will he fire even more Buckshots?

hollow rei13 votes

Are you taking into account past mana cost increases with the removal of Mana Pots? I totally agree that it's good for long-term balance considerations, but I'm worried that some champs like Zyra (who has cripplingly high early mana costs) had their numbers adjusted in the past as a way of compensating for the presence of Mana Pots before, and are going to either have an incredibly hard early game without them or be shoehorned into picking up Flask every game.

RiotPWYFF10 votes

Short answer: yes. Long answer...

There's a lot of concern on specific champions that we won't get them perfect out the gate with preseason and, while I think that's a super valid concern, it's one we can't be shackled to for the time being. I suspect most champs will get proper compensation before they ship, but what a change like this does is allows us to see what champions were using mana pot spamming to cover up massive weaknesses versus those who were using them to snowball forward. If we don't get it right the first time, you can be sure we are aware of the space we're creating and can solve for it.

Linna Excel6 votes

Can you guys give us a brief rundown of the ADC item changes and maybe a preview if you are adding anything new?

RiotRiot Reinboom36 votes

Sure.

Infinity Edge is slightly weaker now (little less AD), we shifted power elsewhere so it's less automatic and so that we could add cooler things to the Marksman space.

Essence Reaver scales its CDR off of your critical strike chance so that it works as a big core item (think IE space). It can now give upwards of +30% CDR.

Phantom Dancer does stuff other than just be straight up damage. Bonus movement speed while near your opponents and you take less damage from the last champion you hit. Isolate and kill people, basically.

Rapid Firecannon charges up like Shiv, but when charged instead of prepping you for the thunder, increases your attack range and gives you a fiery hit at the end.

Shiv does even more damage versus minions. It's specialized further into being the bursty clearing tool.

Hurricane now crits and the bolts crit. Also movement speed. It's in the PD / Shiv space now, so it should be an option for more Marksman.

Executioner's Calling is back, but it's a bit different and cheaper. Also it's a component item. It builds into something new.

Last Whisper is now a component item. It builds into new things.

There's something called Giant Slayer. It hurts health dudes.

Merc scimitar has Lifesteal, you should feel comfortable taking it over BT.

Death's Dance exist. It has something like Lifesteal but better. Also it "delays" damage.

And tons of changes all over the place. This is just some of the marks targeted ones.

Saint Haven3 votes

do you think any of the new items will help AD casters like Kha'zix as far as options and buildpaths go, or were they strictly made with Marksmen in mind, and are so specialized that they only help marksmen?

RiotRiot Reinboom13 votes

Yes, there will be a lot of cross talk. Death's Dance is pretty awesome on Kha'zix as a physical damage vamp item.

NullDragon5 votes

How has Miss Fortune changed to become the ULTIMATE BULLET HELL SHOOTER BOSS CHAMPION EVAR? (or whatever she is now)

RiotRiot Scruffy11 votes

TLDR on what we did with her R to make it relevant at all stages of the game:

  1. It now has an AD ratio (we actually already put that in an earlier patch)
  2. Each rank up of the ult now shoots more/faster waves
  3. Each ult wave can now crit (based on her crit chance) the entire wave will either crit or not

Side note, impure shots (the W passive) will be removed and is replaced with a new auto attack passive.

Archenz9 votes

Good choice removing the w passive, it was in by opinion holding her back from having other stronger power in her kit.

GRIMThousandEyes6 votes

I'm gonna be frank. I don't think adding crit is a good idea.

That was partially why Ashe was changed right? I thought we were trying to get away from the binary crit or no cirt path.

It seems like it's gonna make a huge part of MF's kit reliant on luck. If I'm misinterpreting please set me straight.

Jack º16 votes

It seems like it's gonna make a huge part of MF's kit reliant on luck.

"fortune doesn't favor fools" MissFortune I feel like the luck part fits her

RiotRiot Scruffy7 votes

With the new ADC itemization, crit is a core stat for most of the good marksmen builds. This led us to the situation where MF players always felt bad about their item builds because they were missing out on a lot of power in the ult (her key spell).

Heal and Forget5 votes

Are the 6 marksmen listed in the dev blog the only ones to have changes? Or are there smaller changes for other marksmen not listed?

RiotRiot Reinboom9 votes

There's smaller scope changes to most Marksmen.

FusRoDah12 votes

What about our pretty boy Ezreal? His W is pretty much useless at the moment...

Cunny Baron4 votes

How viable is runaans now on champions not kalista or kindred?item 3085

RiotRiot Reinboom11 votes

Should be much more valid.

Hurricane now gives MS + Crit and the bolts can crit. It's not damaging your normal damage scaling by taking it anymore.

lightdragoon883 votes

Hi hope all is well and that this pre-season will be a good one.

What are you most looking forward to?

Sharjo8 votes

If anything I'm looking forward to the Rift Herald.

Dude looks like a void empowered Scuttle Crab and I love it.

RiotPWYFF10 votes

Basically yes. FeralPony and Jag can talk about its origins, but that was the concept and it's pretty sweet.

Sharjo7 votes

I like this. It kinda adds to Baron's presence on the rift from a thematic and story perspective; the void bleeding in to Runeterra's actually making new void species out of the local wildlife. I hope I'm getting that right!

RiotJag22 votes

The story behind it is that a Scuttle Crab wandered into Baron's Pit and was warped by the Void. It looks totally badass and I'm blown away by what the artists did here. :)

RiotPWYFF9 votes

Honestly? The vision changes are really interesting - they make the game more dynamic in terms of positioning and clever use of cooldowns. It's less about "if you're ahead, blanket the map in invisible things" but more about learning where to place vision when you need it.

The other one would be the Rapid Firecannon specifically. The marksmen items are really, really satisfying, but FeralPony was running a Teemo build with Firecannon + Rylai's + Liandry's and the sheer amount of obnoxiousness made me happy. Probably not effective in the long-term but...

Paress2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Pwyff,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=whbJ5lH1,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2015-10-28T18:23:00.044+0000)

The other one would be the Rapid Firecannon specifically. The marksmen items are really, really satisfying, but FeralPony was running a Teemo build with Firecannon + Rylai's + Liandry's and the sheer amount of obnoxiousness made me happy. Probably not effective in the long-term but...

Firecannon new item spotted

I'll hope Marskmen will have much funnier build path like CDR, Sustain or even AoE !

Shroom Junkie9 votes

Jinx + Runaan's + AoE on-hit item Rip enemy team

RiotFeralPony8 votes

{quoted}

Hi hope all is well and that this pre-season will be a good one.

What are you most looking forward to?

Personally I'm most excited for the Graves changes (though admittedly I'm SUPER biased towards that champion). His basic pattern takes some getting used to but it feels really unique and distinct from other Marksmen.

RiotRiot Calad10 votes

Personally, I'm looking forward to the new mastery system. Dangerous Game was always one of my favorite masteries because I could make risky plays and see the healing after a kill just barely save my life.

I think the new mastery system will have more options like that, where you can actually see the effect of your decisions. I can't wait to start theorycrafting!

RiotAD Yuumi8 votes

{quoted}

Hi hope all is well and that this pre-season will be a good one.

What are you most looking forward to?

For me (and I admit I'm very biased) I'm super excited for the usability improvements we've made to the mastery system. Keystones? yeah those are cool. Not hating life when you have to interact with the mastery pages in champs select? Freaking awesome

Sonic Says2 votes

IMPORTANT QUESTION

Does Essence Reaver not suck anymore? Alternatively, is there a chance we'll get a "miniature" version of it, with the mana passive available around 1500 gold? By the time you get ER now, it's window of usefulness is pretty much over.

RiotRiot Reinboom17 votes

There won't be a miniature ER.

Rather, we expect ER to be bought much much earlier, so there was less need for it. It gives a lot more now (think less "Will I take this over Bloodthirster?" and more "Will I take this over Infinity Edge?")

Hellioning47 votes

'No.'

Sonic Says3 votes

Very interesting. Is infinity edge getting toned down, or is new ER really that good?

RiotRiot Reinboom18 votes

Both.

When combined with other items, ER gives upwards of +30% CDR now.

velocitas0142 votes

nope ._.

RiotRiot Reinboom8 votes

If ER isn't bought over IE on who we made it for, then we'll adjust ER up.

Currently it's actually been very scary in testing. Essence Reaver now scales up its cooldown reduction with other items.

For example... Essence Reaver + Zeal = +30% Cooldown

We want Essence Reaver to be your definitive Marksman caster item.

Plüme2 votes

Could you give some more insight on the new sightstone build paths?

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