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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 6

RiotMeddler··1 votes·57,154 views

Hi all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped.

If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Zoe

Zoe's been fairly strong, hence the nerfs that just went out in 7.24. Our prediction is that those should be sizeable enough she won't need much immediate followup on power grounds, with changes like 20s duration on minion dropped W spells and a smaller radius on the E trap being particularly meaningful. We'll see where she lands though, with further power changes in 7.24b or 8.1 if needed. One thing we're considering doing regardless of power is potentially shifting some of her damage from base to ratios, with the argument being that she may be doing too much damage mid game even when she doesn't have much in the way of items.

In terms of RNG on Zoe's part, more thoughts on that, and RNG in general, in an upcoming post (probably the one at the end of this week, possibly early next week).

New Ability Icons

We've finally got some updated ability icons for Mundo, Renekton, Nunu and Amumu in patch 7.24. Took a lot longer than originally expected when I first mentioned them, since the artist who was working on them got suddenly pulled onto something else. Glad to have them done though and, while I wouldn't want to make any promises beyond 'sometime next year', we'll also do some further champs who've got old icons that look poor at some point.


Looking at fighter performance in 7.24b

As previously mentioned we'll be doing a mini patch in mid December called 7.24b that will have a bunch of balance changes in it (no other stuff though). One of our targets there will be helping out a number of fighters. Our plan at present is to use a combination of buffs to some fighters (Aatrox, Fiora, Kled, Olaf, Renekton), nerfs to some overperformers who surpress fighters (Teemo, Jayce) and item changes (Tiamat, Ravenous Hydra, BC, LDR). Most, or all of that, should be on PBE already. It will likely get iterated on during the patch cycle of course. Worth calling out the LDR change in particular, which is that the Giant Slayer passive now requires the target have 2000 more health than the user to get the maximum damage increase. We're looking to test that based off the observation that tanks in particular are generally 2000+ health up on LDR users. Fighters by contrast will often by around 1000 damage up, but aren't as often cracking 2000. Should mean lower damage output against fighters and other champs who build some health while maintaining anti tank damage as a result.

We'll also be looking at how the Bramble Vest nerf/Sunfire Cape buff in 7.24 went. A key goal there was to reduce differences in how well tanks and fighters performed in lane based off whether or not a lot of auto attacking was going on or not (how good Bramble Vest is). That meant shifting power from Bramble Vest to Sunfire Cape, which has a less variable output. It's possible that we may have also moved power up for tanks generally with that change though. That wasn't our goal, so we'll want to keep an eye on that as something to follow up on in 7.24b as well.


Game Pacing

We've also been looking at game pacing in general a fair bit recently, looking at things like how long games last, when towers go down, which lane tower first blood occurs in etc. Seeing a lot of discussion about those sorts of issues from you folks too. We've got a longer blog post on that coming sometime this month (exact date to be determined). A few observations that leap out for me though below in the meantime as well:

  • The changes in 7.23 (more tower health, more minion damage to towers, minions faster after 20 minutes) had almost no effect on average game length or on time of first tower fall (now about 6s later than 7.22). Our primary goal with those changes was to support split pushing a bit more, especially for champs with lower personal damage to towers, without making towers fall faster overall. We're not seeing towers go down faster post 7.23 which is good, we're also not seeing much affect on split pushers so far however, suggesting we've potentially been too subtle in our approach with that set of changes.
  • Average damage dealt is up somewhat, relative to before pre-season. Our initial assumption was that that would be coming from the Runes system, looking into it further it looks like one of the biggest contributors is the shift of a lot of supports to the Frost Queen's line from more defensive items, with associated shift in support champs picked to those who deal more damage anyway (and therefore like the FQ line being strong). That combination means both more damage dealers on a team and less champs peel/preventing damage, particularly during laning phase in bot lane, but also to some degree in later team fights.
  • Bot lane's also seeing more tower first bloods than previous (really low MMR take rate 44%-47%, mid MMR 47%-51%, really high MMR 55%-58%). We've generally felt around 50% of tower first bloods in bot is appropriate, given half the laning champs in the game are in that lane in the average game. That high MMR value is a point of some concern as a result, and suggests bot lane influence might be too high at least in that context. Need to see whether the fighter changes mentioned shift some of that back to top lane or not. If not might look at changes for 7.24b or 8.1, though that's not the only factor in considering tower and other game pacing changes.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

329 Comments

Akumu16 votes

Are you serious? You're blaming the damage creep on supports? Damage is straight up higher, burst is higher, never in LoL have i experienced literally instantly dying to various champions like this.

The 3 item Jarvan that did 1900 damage to me in 1 seconds is cause of supports too right? Makes sense.

Zagula Biggs14 votes

Hi Meddler,

Any changes coming to assassins hurt by the assassin rework like Fizz, Rengar, and Shaco? Also, any reason you continuously ignore any related questions unless it has to do with Leblanc?

Alak6 votes

He probably won't answer you. Unless you ask about ADCs.

Hadriel10 votes

He literally answered a question about assassin balance before you even thought of posting this low level drivel.

Knightmare6 votes

Hiya, point of the celerity nerfs? Know some champ builds were exploiting it too much but not most that had it as their runes, why nerf across the board?

RiotMeddler5 votes

Just celerity being too strong relative to other non keystones runes.

Shadow Hazard6 votes
  1. It seems that the sona changes have been felt to be quite heavy handed, especially after her first pre-season balance change put her in line, and now we have to also consider that aery got nerfed as well as klepto being nerfed, all leading to sona's effectiveness being quite heavily lowered. Of course people are worried of the history of champs having direct nerfs ->external factor being nerfed->doubling down an extra time for one more nerf to leave them in a piss state.

  2. A point in response to the thought that bot may have too much influence. Has riot considered a point that has been brought up multiple times recently is that the gold cost for the major items of ADC's vs fighters are quite significantly cheaper even though ADC's have the generally higher average gold income. Has there been any discussion about adjusting the prices of ADC items up and fighter items down to offer more equality in the comparative gold sink?

  3. Glad the recognition that the bramble+sunfire changes could end as a net increase for tanks power.

Erdamon5 votes

Any thoughts on how Rumble is doing and if he's going to recieve changes any time soon?

RiotMeddler4 votes

No plans in the near future. We may end up nerfing the Sorcery style bonus, or Comet (one of his best keystones) in 7.24b though, which would mean we should assess him for a potential buff if so (he's not overperforming like a lot of other Sorc/Comet users are).

Megazoz5 votes

Hey Meddler ! What are your thoughts on Yasuo's state right now? , the removal of fervor of battle and attack speed runes really affected him [sg-soraka]

Axerito5 votes

What about Soraka? Will you give her compensation buffs when nerfing Forbidden Idol items? I know that these nerfs are made to keep Janna and lulu in check but Soraka and Sona will be left in the dumpster if these changes come live.

Spideraxe4 votes

Hey Meddler I wanted to take this QGT to ask you about what happened to some potential balance changes that you'd previously mentioned like what happened to the Zac, Tristana and Twitch changes

Krabby4 votes

with the new healthbar changes the color red which is used in the teamscore (and probably other places too) got changed and it made it really unclear, for me at least. and as far as I know I am not even colorblind. So this could be even worse for colorblind people.

What is the reason this color got changed if i may ask (not sure if I am asking at the right person, but might aswel try)

RiotCrabDust2 votes

It's such a minor shift, I'm honestly surprised anyone noticed - the reason is just crossed wires. I pulled a screen pulled from Live, is this what you're seeing? https://imgur.com/a/76XIH

Krabby3 votes

yeah, that is what I am talking about. The size of the text in game is quite small, which is not really a problem for me normally. But it became quite hard to notice for me. Especially with the smaller numbers which aren't 0.

Krabby2 votes

I am mostly talking about the similar numbers like 6,8,9 which all look somewhat alike

ImaginesTigers4 votes

A quick question: what happened to Xin's new splash art?

Sovereign Charm4 votes

A Rioter mentioned attack speed changes some time ago to make it easier to work with, regarding bases and percentages; any update on that?

Jar Jar binks l3 votes

Volibear is a fighter, why he isnt getting any Buffs. Look at his winrates, he is RIP on op.gg.

RiotMeddler3 votes

We do have some Volibear stuff in testing now, as below. Wasn't yet on the plan as a potential 7.24b change when I wrote this though, hence its absence above:

W: Bonus Attack Speed (stacks 3 times) :: 4/8/12/16/20% >>> 6/12/18/24/30%

Jar Jar binks l2 votes

{quoted}

We do have some Volibear stuff in testing now, as below. Wasn't yet on the plan as a potential 7.24b change when I wrote this though, hence its absence above:

W: Bonus Attack Speed (stacks 3 times) :: 4/8/12/16/20% >>> 6/12/18/24/30%

Oh thanks :D. Is it the only buff in testing or do u have more?

Illâoi Evê Siôn3 votes

In the more distant future, is Volibear a good target for one of those small Gameplay Updates that you're doing?

I would be interested in seeing how good he'd be with some Attack Damage ratios and a heal outside of his passive.

RiotMeddler4 votes

Yeah, he needs larger work, though whether just a gameplay update or a full VGU I think you could argue either way.

Talking to the person looking at Voli this patch sounds like he's going to take another pass at changes too btw, so likely to be something other than the above buff.

EICrack2 votes

Honestly Atk speed would help his clear early but his real problem is getting in range, maybe if you revert the Q changes ( Bonus movement speed toward champions changed to 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% from 45% at all ranks ) we could max E second.

Time423 votes

What about those FPS issues? We really not going to be able to play 'till Jan/Feb?

Yowan3 votes

Hello Meddler ! Do you have any information on the Ryze issue you mentioned something like 2 months ago ? Is the blue dude still in your scope? 8.1 material ? I understand that balancing induced by runes has a much higher priority but just wondering if something is still planned for him ! Thanks

Radiant Seraph3 votes

Anything to say about the AP pass?

RiotMeddler5 votes

Still planning to do some adjustments, best guess would be sometime 8.3 to 8.4? That could vary a lot depending on what else comes up though, it's work that should be done but not as pressing as bigger issues that often crop up.

Radiant Seraph2 votes

From your wording each time the AP pass is brought up, it sounds as if it will be pretty small, is that the case?

RiotMeddler5 votes

Fairly small yeah. At a guess a new item, plus small to moderate stats (maybe build path?) changes to quite a few others.

Adalvar8 votes

Please tell me you guys don't intend to drain more AP from individual items (which has been a consistent tactic every time AP items get a pass). That has been the consistent problem with AP value.

Is Deathcap getting looked at? That is one of the major gripes with AP itemization due to it's insane build path and high cost.

Skyroar5 votes

{quoted}

Fairly small yeah. At a guess a new item, plus small to moderate stats (maybe build path?) changes to quite a few others.

I was hoping for something more in-depth, are there still plans for that? AP itemnization is just not as interesting as AD's, even if you add a new lost chapter item and buff some of the weaker builds.

Liandry is still a bizarre item, void staff should be contextual and not mandatory, zhonya's active is good versus AP or AD burst even though the item itself offers armor but no MR, and there's no proper (good) armor AP item that is on par with, say, hexdrinker.

Ap assassins buy health, AP burst mages buy health, battle mages need to buy squishy items to deal damage (void), countering ap burst comes with additional armor cost, and the anti-tank item (void, again) is mathematically better than the scaling item 95% of the time regardless of champion and comp. It's all kind of messy.

La Bello2 votes

pretty well said well put.

AP items are a complete hot mess with many items lacking a direction and being too generalist.

Battle Mages,Control Mages,Burst Mages should all be buying different things and Items should have much more varied effects.

not only would a new item be needed but overhauls to existing items also need to happen.

Im actually completely surprised Riot is staying in the dark about some of their current changes in testing,thoughts and other things. Youd figure they would be sending out surveys to mid players or something by now or something

Veraska3 votes

Howdy meddler how's ur week treating you? Also any personal opinions or feelings on assassin's in Midlane, from a competitive standpoint they're pretty absent (we got like 1 or 2 fizz games at worlds) what would it take for squishy melee champions to be viable competitively again?

AnataBakka3 votes

What do you think about Tham Phase Rush top lane/or any other lane (might even work as a jungler)? Is that 100% slow resist, which works on self slows, intended?

Also, when you said you had changes in mind for toplane i was hoping i would get a change on Illaoi :( A buff to Fiora, Renekton and Kled and Illaoi's bugfixes will be worth nothing.

AirKingNeo3 votes

Anything on melee bonuses for Precision keystones?

Anything on buffing Aatrox by giving him a tank killing mechanic and making it so people can't completely walk out of his passive's Hellbent (like increasing Hellbent's duration and increasing his slow duration)? Similarly, anything on making BoRK a good item for bruisers?

Anything on the changes to Kayn (Rhasst)? He's suffering from an AD loss from not having Fervor of Battle which he used to boost his damage with his substantial AD ratios.

Omituinen3 votes

Hi Meddler,

Hoping I'm not too late for a response, but as a support main, preseason feels really bad for me because it feels like damage has gone up by a lot, so my job of protecting/enabling my carries seems near-impossible when I'm playing from behind. As a result I'm concerned to see blanket nerfs to a big chunk of support items in the upcoming patch, because playing support feels really bad for me at the moment even though I've been maining it for several seasons now - even when it was regarded as a weak role.

Given that people aren't even really complaining about enchanters or supports in general that much at the moment, is the nerf to support itemisation a definite thing, or something you're just testing? And if it is a definite, could I get some context as to why, on behalf of all the other people who are still willingly playing support?

Wobly2 votes

Are the Grasp changes on PBE something that would ship in 7.24b or 8.1?

RiotMeddler3 votes

Not in 7.24b at least. They need more testing and they're not the sort of thing we can do in a micropatch, which 7.24b still is behind the scenes. 8.1's possible, though far from guaranteed, Grasp changes have only just gone into testing.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Meddler, just want to say this:

As a long time player, I really, really like that you guys nowadays find the time and tools to micropatch the game for obvious problem cases prior to the long christmas break. Since preseason is so close to that break, there's always the chance that some balancing utterly breaks something else / reveals another important outlier, and this way we won't have to deal with said outlier for the whole of the break. :)

Bad memories of christmas breaks past, like the infamous League of Thunderlord's.

Redesignated2 votes

Context on the nerfs to Forbidden Idol and its upgrades? Enchanters as a whole are unerperforming right now in the face of tank supports, why are their roster-targeted items having their primary focus weakened? Is there any attention being paid to the fact that nerfs to Heal/Shield Power also directly reduces Redemption's active's effectiveness, with Redemption itself having already lost a lot of value due to the removal of Windspeaker's Blessing in Runes Reforged (and Revitalize being a terrible replacement for most enchanters)?

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

Be careful you don't overbuff like you did with Lethality. Camille just got buffed, and so did Riven, both heavy users of Tiamat and at times Colussus.

Be careful you don't just make Fighters and Bruisers OP AF again.

Linna Excel2 votes

Meddler did you guys nerf sona because you want enchanters to be out of the meta by season's start? Her win rate just dropped from 52% to 47% and a lot of her players are thinking she was overnerfed.

Looking at her stats, it seems like Kleptomancy was broken (also on EZ) not her.

Reign of Squid2 votes

for me Sona need a full VGU, her spells needs to be spam to be usefull, thats just too weird. And she needs new animations, her moves are not really fluid compare to new champions (janna is the same). And her theme, the music, its completely forgotten, every skins makes the same sounds (exept qujin, dj and arcade t/j/l) But its just my opinion :)

Garnet Dust2 votes

I agree. I would totally use sona and janna more if they weren't so ugly and bland.

Golden Demon441 votes

What about some jhin buffs he is very weak atm

RiotMeddler5 votes

We were testing some Jhin buffs recently, having been on the same page that he was weak and had been for a while (so should be more of a priority). As we were working on those though we saw his performance improve quite a lot, in particular for those picking Runes well, so we backed off for a bit to see where he settled.

Penns1 votes

Idk but its probably not a good idea to buff "Fighters", nerf their counters, and buff their items all in the same patch lul

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

Idk but its probably not a good idea to buff "Fighters", nerf their counters, and buff their items all in the same patch lul

Seems like a reasonable thing to do to counteract the sheer frustration fighters have gone through. Also the direct buffs being offensive focused are dumb

DontTouchMyBall3 votes

EDIT:

On AP itemisation:

I have a love/hate relationship with Morelos. I love the item, its really good and it gives everything a mages wants in a single item; mana, AP and CDR (not even counting the grievous wounds passive here) but hate it in the sense I cannot seem to build anything else, others items seem to pale in comparison. If we could introduce more options would be nice so not every1 would buy morelos first item

{quoted}

Seems like a reasonable thing to do to counteract the sheer frustration fighters have gone through. Also the direct buffs being offensive focused are dumb

I suppose fighting fire with fire isn't the way to go, The tides keep changing, every1 gets a chance in the spotlight every once in a while. But I admit, I love Janna and I'm ashamed her spotlight lasted so long. I wanted to play her but not her to be considered OP.

Sona changes were harsh IMO in just the course of a single patch for a champ that squishy: mana up and damage down I'm a fan of taking changes nice and slowly so we can evaluate their impact.

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