Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 24

RiotMeddler·Oct 24, 2018·1 votes·175,145 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

Top Lane Viktor

Wanted to share some thoughts about top lane Viktor, given we've seen it picking up some popularity and discussion, in particular off usage at Worlds. Our thinking right now:

It's quite strong when picked into the right enemy team and opposing lane (melee that aren't extremely mobile). It's not looking like a good choice so far into other team comps however, so seems pretty risky as a blind pick.
It's a different enough playstyle and position for experienced Viktor players that we're expecting it to take a while for strong usage to be common in solo queue. Similarly top laners without much Viktor experience will take a bit to build up the experience needed to play it usefully. Some degree of wait and see as a result.
Preseason changes will likely impact top Viktor's effectiveness. Timewarp Tonic and Klepto changes will potentially shift its viability, given both of those are standard picks at present for it. Additionally wider preseason changes, particularly tower plating, will impact all champions to some degree.
Finally it's also cool to see a champ getting played in a different way as an evolving reaction to other champs being common/strong.

Based off all of that we're not looking to make any changes to Viktor specifically at present. We'll see where things end up post 8.23, nothing's currently looking too concerning though.

Lissandra Passive

A little while back I mentioned that the Lissandra passive we've been testing (enemy champs killed become frozen statues that slow enemies, then explode) had been running into some issues with reliability. Been testing a range of different ways to address that since and have settled on one that's been really good in testing over the last couple of weeks. Wanted to share an update with you folks as a result:

https://imgur.com/a/h4NPCut

A few other details to know:

Frozen Thralls start off moving really slowly and get somewhat faster over time.
They'll prioritize running at enemy champions over enemy minions.
The exact numbers listed here haven't gone through rigorous balance tuning yet (that happens at the end), so could still change.

Current State of Clash

A few months back we talked about how we were going to relaunch Clash, with the TLDR being fixing some underlying issues with the platform LoL runs on, then PBE testing, then testing in different regions, then eventually a full launch:

https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/07/dev-the-future-of-clash/

We're now at the stage where we've been running mini Clash events in some regions. Tests in Oceania, Japan, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia and Taiwan have so far gone well, with a few small issues identified we're working on, but nothing serious. Next up we'll be testing in other regions and increasing the scope of those tests a bit as well. Should have a few more details on exactly what we're doing different in an upcoming Ask Riot post too. We're still a while off a full launch, but have made significant progress and things are looking pretty good so far.

298 Comments

Best Kog NAOct 24, 201816 votes

As a Kog'maw main for 6 years now I have a couple of questions about current/future plans for my favorite little void puppy.

Is the auto passive bug that happens sometimes where you're able to auto once whenever you're in your passive under VERY specific circumstances ever going to be fixed? Some more details on the bug: it happens more often at higher attack speeds, and I was able to replicate it more when orb walking around a target rather than just standing still and autoing. Here's a video of it happening with dragon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyxXYqrnlXo , this same bug also works on champions, any jungle camp, minions, and pets with the same level of frequency. It also works on towers, plants, and inhibs / nexus but is much rarer and more difficult to execute. I'm able to provide more videos and a more detailed walk through of how to replicate this bug if needed.
Kog'Maw's current state in the meta is not the best at all, in fact I would argue it is one of the worst. As an on hit ADC Kog has never really been able to use crit that effectively, so after the release of the new crit item Stormrazor Kog'Maw wasn't really effected directly by it, but because it's emphasizing earlier power spikes he's fallen in tier a decent amount because while he needs a few items to get going stormrazor adcs only need 1 item to really hit their power spike. However the main thing that's been holding back Kog'Maw in my eyes from the meta is the strength of Kai'sa and Varus. Kai'sa and Varus (mainly Kai'sa) are the other two on hit ADC's that exist beside Kog'Maw. However neither of them have been hit by the current meta as hard as Kog'Maw, for a few reasons. I'll start with Varus, he brings CC and reliable poke to the table in the form of his ult and his Q, Kog'Maw does outpoke him with his ult and q, but having a good form of CC makes Varus just that much better than Kog. But when it comes to late game Kog'Maw with his W will outdamage Varus, so it isn't really a problem late game. However with Kai'sa there's no point in the game where Kog outdamages her. She brings everything Kog does and more to the table. Where Kog has his W to deal %health damage Kai'sa has her passive which does the same. Kai'sa also brings waveclear, greater poke, and more self peel than Kog has. In a meta where Kai'sa is this strong there is no reason to pick Kog'Maw when Kai'sa is unbanned since she does everything Kog does but better.
The third and final point I would like to talk about is the impact current meta supports have on Kog'Maw. In lanes where common supports are Pyke, Thresh, and Leona, Kog'maw not only does poorly against these supports, but he has poor synergy with these supports as well. I'm not saying this is a problem, hell I think Pyke is super fun to play and I always love seeing thresh in the meta, but I'm just bringing up this last point because it's another contributing factor in my eyes as to why Kog'Maw's current state in the meta is one that needs changes.

Wukong AirlinesOct 24, 201813 votes

Hey Meddler, did you check my last Wukong Passive change suggestion? if not here's the link: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/57bJhcmF-meddler-what-if-we-made-wukongs-passive-scale

Something needs to be changed in Wukong's kit in order to shift him towards healthier playstyle [bruiser] which he's intended to be, and by starting with the Passive we can achieve that.

rtbf36083462Oct 24, 20181 votes

[deleted]

Blue Moon WolfOct 24, 20182 votes

funny, cause the "inferior clone" was considered OP only a few patches ago. Must have slipped your mind right?

[sg-lulu]

rtbf36083462Oct 24, 20181 votes

I'm so sorry, I didn't realize you had trouble thinking:

I meant inferior design. NOT numbers.

If he really is so well-designed, why do you think these people keep posting things like this on every last Meddler post? For months. And months. And months.

Blue Moon WolfOct 24, 20182 votes

Cause he needs updated. That simple. to most it's only a passive update he needs to boot, but he hasn't gotten that. Sorry if I don't have a better answer for you but honestly it feels like you just hate things to hate them with no logic behind it, like "play something else" is the WORST excuse I've ever heard to not update something, and I've heard some pretty bad excuses over the years. so there's hardly any point to try to explain something to someone who is dead set on just trash talking others with no valid points to help themselves.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

rtbf36083462Oct 24, 20182 votes

Oh and also:

Wukong: gets reworked

“WAAAAH, why didn’t panth get reworked?!”

“WAAAAH, why didn’t Mundo get reworked?!”

“WAAAAH, why didn’t chogath get reworked?!”

“WAAAAH, why didn’t Morde get reworked?!”

This never, ever ends.

Instead of whining about your obscure champ...just forget him and play Jax?

Blue Moon WolfOct 24, 20183 votes

you mean Jax who needs an even bigger rework then Wukong? the walking eggplant? really? lol. Guess what? that will NEVER change. the game ALWAYS has champs who need updated and EVERYONE will be pissed about one champ not getting updated at one point or another. If THAT is your problem then you are likely playing the wrong game.

rtbf36083462Oct 24, 20182 votes

Jax was the OG faceroller bruiser. Wukong was the one who tried to sneak into his niche.

Get outta here Wukong. We already have a faceroller.

Blue Moon WolfOct 24, 20182 votes

oh, sorry you are butt hurt about your eggplant. but he's not getting any work sooner then anyone else UwU

rtbf36083462Oct 24, 20181 votes

Dat critical thinking.

My point is, why did they even bother to make a champ that does virtually the same thing as Jax?

Just remove/forget about that nonsense

Blue Moon WolfOct 24, 20182 votes

okay, same question back at you? why play Jax when better champs like XinZhao Khazix Pantheon Poppy Riven Tryndamere Nocturne Olaf all exist and have more variety to their kits past "point and click" and " press button empower". Just remove jax and play any of those.

rtbf36083462Oct 24, 20181 votes

Sigh:

Xin: Rework list

Kha: Hard stealth

Panth: Rework list

Poppy: Extremely different ult/w

Riven: Different playstyle

Trynd: Rework list

Noct: Rework list

Olaf: CC immunity. Unique to him.

Oh look, more Jax clones. But why don’t they whine like you guys do?

Blue Moon WolfOct 24, 20182 votes

REALLY? Xin ALREADY got reworked. he's no where near the rework list. XD on the other hand Jax IS on the rework list. Riot said he's up for a small scale VGU and is one of the most likely to be up next because he's so out of date in both his gameplay and is lore and just his eggplant design. Fact is your champ is as generic as they come and you are looking for anyone else to pick on to try to make yourself feel like he's not. Sorry to break it to you, but many of those are in far better shape then your eggplant.

Blue Moon WolfOct 24, 20182 votes

So you don't even play the champ you are recommending? hmmm, maybe you shouldn't be telling people to play a champ that you don't even bother with. Or better yet, you could keep your nose out of business you clearly have no care for. Like, what the hell does it matter to you? You are just looking for an excuse to bitch at this point.

Blue Moon WolfOct 24, 20182 votes

oh, little fool now is it? ooh scary. You don't even PLAY the "original", you don't even have any clue about what you are talking about and are just looking for an argument for some stupid reason that you have yet to really explain. Should I take a minute to let your balls drop so you can try to come up with some kind of reason or are you just going to act like child who can't come up with any real reason for your little fits? cause honestly that's the only shit that gets old with this game. People like you who don't care about the game enough to want to get things taken care of but still feel like they need to criticize others and use the WORST champs as examples to try to make a fake argument for themselves.

Chembaron YamadaOct 25, 20182 votes

So what you are saying is that it is fine that Wukong is low priority for a rework right now. Because there will always be someone pissed that their champ didn't get reworked, might as well pick Wukong for that, a champion which is actually loved the way he is by a specific playerbase.

Nabil17778Oct 24, 201811 votes

Hi meddler,

When is new champ teaser out?

RiotMeddlerOct 24, 201823 votes

Probably a bit before they hit PBE.

Ok, more seriously, no, I won't mention when teasers are coming. Some of the surprise there is part of why we do teasers at all in the first place :)

Gear5LuffyOct 24, 20187 votes

True the Jhin Teasers were the reason i started maining the champ before release date

Nicki MinajOct 24, 20189 votes

Will each Thrall look the same ? Also they will change depending on the skin right and what is a ''Thrall'' really, doesn't seem like a fitting term for Lissandra's thing

T8 SpeedwagonOct 24, 201810 votes

A Thrall is a big green orc who wields a hammer and uses nature's elements at his will. And it is voiced by Chris Metzen

RiotMeddlerOct 24, 201817 votes

For base Lissandra Thralls will look like the killed champion with a layer of blue ice over the top of them. They'll therefore have the victims model and animations, but the victim's texture will be overridden. Likely we'll change from blue ice to other looks for Lissandra's different skins, haven't had those yet though, been making sure the base and gameplay are right first before committing time that might have to be redone otherwise.

'Thrall' is an old English/Norse word for slave/captive basically, hence the pairing with subjugation.

Bootleg GayOct 24, 201828 votes

I think it'd be cool if the models were frozen too. (Thinking Nautilus' famous glitched pose where he doesn't move until certain actions are taken.)

Be nice and creepy to see these statues just sliding across the Rift like haunting ice sculptures.

FranticFerretOct 24, 20186 votes

Logged in just to upvote this tho. I thought it was going to be like this by default, I think it makes way more sense and would differentiate it from Mordekaiser's ult, and make it fit Lissandra's thematics more. I feel she'd sooner make enemies undead popsicles that creepily slide rather than just mind controlling them or something.

HupsisOct 24, 20184 votes

They could have the same ice sliding effect as Lissandra has.

NitaoOct 24, 20184 votes

It's cool but can I suggest a change? It would be so cool if Lissandra summoned kind of tombstones or ice shards instead. They would move towards enemies same way as Liss does. Ground (ice) will just move under them. Might not be as good thought. It's something that looks absolutely awesome in my imagination.

IxtaliKingOct 24, 20188 votes

Hey Meddler, is Lissandra getting any other changes besides the passive?

RiotMeddlerOct 24, 20188 votes

AA's a bit smoother (mainly visual, small changes to actual timing too though) Mana costs lowered a bit E might start a bit faster, decelerate ending a bit slower (around the same time to final destination) Potentially some damage, CD or other nerfs if needed to pay for the new passive (will depend on final balance testing which hasn't happened yet)

Rayray McRayOct 25, 20181 votes

Hey, just wanted to ask if you will also take a look at the delay when self-ulting?

RiotMeddlerOct 25, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rayray McRay,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=z5urEfMu,comment-id=000d00000001,timestamp=2018-10-25T06:19:40.061+0000)

Hey, just wanted to ask if you will also take a look at the delay when self-ulting?

Do you have an example of it occurring in video? I've looked into a number of reports of delayed ult, or death through ult, over the years. Haven't yet seen a demonstration of it that wasn't someone accidentally clicking on an nearby enemy champ or just lagging. Would love to see an example though, hard to investigate without but I've seen enough comments about it crop up would like to.

DarkomantisOct 24, 20187 votes

Hello Meddler, I'm an old time Dominion player who has played over 5000 games in Dominion and have sinked countless hours into Ascension whenever it was up. I wanted to inquire on Ascension.

In a QGT last year, it was said that Riot is considering adding RGM gamemodes into custom games. Will we see Ascension available for custom games or see it at all for next year? I dearly miss Ascension and the old players who come back for it.

Additionally, I will add a post in Gameplay+ on some adjustments for when Ascension does come back unless you're planning to drop the gamemode altogether.

Yordle XayahOct 24, 20186 votes

Two things:

A while ago Riot mentioned a potential ASPD Doran starting item. Anything on that?
A while ago Riot talked about Mana feels like a limitation in a mana vs non-mana matchup, and how the wish was to make mana users feel a positive impact on having the resource dependence. Anything on that?

Zoli BenOct 24, 20185 votes

Hi Meddler! Reav3 said that Ezreal seems pretty successful so far, do you think that Ez level VGU can happen in future? I personally loved it.

RiotMeddlerOct 24, 201810 votes

I'd personally like to see how it performs over a longer period of time before making an plans for future work. We've also got Morgana's VGU, which is likely to involve around the same level of gameplay change, or potentially even less. That should also help us understand benefit from doing projects like this versus VGU's that involve larger gameplay changes too.

Happy with how Ezreal's gone so far though certainly, just early days.

Fisher No ChainsOct 24, 20189 votes

Please consider changing Morgana's gameplay at least a little bit. She doesn't really work as a midlaner anymore unless you're a die hard main and she's been supposed to be a mage more than a support.

AdalvarOct 24, 20185 votes

Wait, so are you saying that the statues of Lissandra's new passive become Maokai Saplings in a way, chasing people down?

Also, by your wording, this means we aren't getting passive this patch right?

Lastly are you still planning on shifting Liss's numbers/E projectile speed around as you mentioned previously or is that out of the table?

RiotMeddlerOct 24, 201810 votes

Yeah, similar to Maokai saplings, though they slow while moving, rather than on the explosion. Won't be in the next patch.

Still trying various speed adjustments (start faster, end slower) with Liss E. I've been having some concerns it removes too much response time, especially over walls, recently though, so have been toning the difference down. It's now getting small enough I need to decide whether it's meaningful enough to matter, whether it could afford to go back up a bit etc.

AdalvarOct 24, 20185 votes

Ok...ice zombie timebombs that chase you down. That one writes itself. What are the current damage numbers you have for this?

One more question, once you complete this passive, is their anymore champion work you plan on doing or are you stepping away from that?

RiotMeddlerOct 24, 201810 votes

It currently goes from 100 to 520 by level, with a 0.3 AP ratio. Was looking to keep their contributions fairly consistent, rather than very dependent on Liss's gold income, hence the low ratio and high base. Those numbers could well change meaningfully though, they're just what's felt about right in playtesting focused on mechanics rather than numbers.

I probably won't do any more meaningful individual design like this after this project ships, at least not in the foreseeable, much as I'd love to do more. Only finishing this one off because it was already significantly done when I moved roles and I've always wanted to go back and address satisfaction with Lissandra's passive after not landing it well the first time.

Linna ExcelOct 24, 20185 votes

Meddler, are you guys going to do anything about shyvana?

AIQOct 24, 20182 votes

I don't think you'll get an answer bro. Been trying to for many of these updates. I think it's a buzz word for him. Regardless, at least getting more dragon chances is kind of a buff... right?

Linna ExcelOct 25, 20182 votes

Well I keep hoping.

Heimerdinger BotOct 24, 20185 votes

Hi Meddler, what are the current plans for Sejuani? She is in dire need of work and us Sejuani players havent heard anything news concerning our champ in quite a while. Thanks.

Frozen DivaOct 24, 20184 votes

I really like the solution for Lissandras passive. Do you think it will ship this year? And what will happen to her old passive? Will it be replaced or added? I hope you‘ll keep that as well. :)

RiotMeddlerOct 24, 20189 votes

Hoping for this year.

Old passive's getting removed. Some people do like playing around it and just wanted a more satisfying passive as well (myself included on both points). Enough other people actively disliked having to consider its timing versus their spell casting that I didn't feel it was the right call to keep it around however. Will be lowering some of her mana costs as a result.

YumaS2AstralOct 24, 20186 votes

Main problem with Lissandra's passive is that it feels less like a bonus, and more like a compensation.

A compensation for her mana costs being so high.

boricCentaur1Oct 24, 20183 votes

Why is dark harvest changing from a late game rune to more of a execute rune.

RiotRiot RovientOct 24, 201812 votes

{quoted}

Why is dark harvest changing from a late game rune to more of a execute rune.

Correction: it's a late-game execute rune! 😊

But to answer your question, we don't feel that bursting your opponent for 300-400 extra damage on the first basic attack is healthy for the game, especially when that attack comes from ranged champs. There's no counterplay and when 2 dark harvest champs meet late game it's usually the first to land a basic attack that wins.

We tried several designs internally before settling on the execute model (DoTs, souls turning into adaptive, damage being lower but AoE etc). The execute version feels fairer, as players have that first 50% of their health bar to react to you, receive some form of shield or to flash away. It's now far more broad, too, with any ability damage or basic stacks about to proc the keystone.

We also spent time cleaning up some of the less consistent aspects of live dark harvest, such as the fact you can use it on towers, you get as much power from your allies dying as your enemies, the tendency to drive players to PvE more than is necessary and the frustratingly low early buff window. It behaves much more like a regular keystone, but with some fun twists (cooldown reset on takedown, for that Katarina team fight cleanup!).

The new rune can only be stacked through PvP combat, which is where league really shines.