Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 20

RiotMeddler·Apr 20, 2018·1 votes·76,641 views

Hey folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Back to regular posting schedule

I've been back in the office this week catching up on everything after a couple of weeks in Japan (somewhere I’ve wanted to visit for years, was a fantastic time). Should be back to the standard two posts a week thing now. Apologies if I end up repeating anything that's already been talked about a lot in my absence, I think I've got a pretty good handle on what has/hasn't already been discussed, but might have missed something.

Input Buffering

Something we've been doing on some individual abilities for a while is making it so that, if their button is pressed just before it would be useable (e.g. while in the middle of another spell or just before it comes off CD), the command is saved and then executed shortly after. A particularly clear example of that is on Lee Sin W back in 7.11.Buffering like that makes executing combos and other cases of precise timing smoother on connections that aren't extremely low ping.

While working on Irelia we developed some new tech that makes input buffering like that much easier to apply to other abilities. It's been working well on Irelia so we're looking to roll it out to almost all abilities in the game shortly. That change is currently in testing on the PBE and we’re hoping to have it be part of 8.9.

Target Champions Only as a Toggle option

At present it's possible to make it so you can’t click on non champions with spells/attacks by holding down a specific key while casting/attacking (default: ~). That works well in some cases and for some players, but can be pretty cumbersome for others. We're currently working on an optional setting (would be found in the Gameplay Options part of the menu) that would let you change that from a Press and Hold approach to something you can toggle on and off with a key press instead.

That's just getting some initial internal testing now, so probably won't be on the PBE for a little bit at least. It's also possible, though I'd imagine unlikely, that we find something that makes it a bad idea to add that functionality to the game. Letting you folks know ahead of time though since I know this is a feature a number of people have asked for over the years. Wanted to provide visibility into how we're looking at it as a result, regardless of what the timing and outcome of that might be.

Shifting approach somewhat on some midseason stuff

As previously mentioned we want to open up positions to more classes. That would allow players who wished to to play champs in ways they currently can't and enable new team comps. At the same time we'd also want to ensure what currently works is still effective - broaden options, not force anyone onto something different. Based on that goal we set ourselves a target of getting mages into bot lane in midseason. After a lot of experimentation though we're shifting our approach somewhat there. We tested some large changes, which were very effective in letting mages be powerful bot lane choices. They resulted however in a lot of game balance costs though, some breakdown in interesting/healthy bot lane play and a lot of disruption when done all at once.

As a result what we're aiming to do instead is a range of changes that both improve some other issues and lay some groundwork for getting more classes into each position. That includes, but isn't limited to, mages in botlane. These changes won't radically redefine how the game plays. Instead they'll be part of a gradual process (multiple patches, not just 8.9) to open things up more, avoid balance costs and other unforeseen consequences of changing too much at once. Might see a few champs being played in new ways after them certainly, but not a massive meta overhaul. LoL.com publishing will also be quieter this year as a result too. We'll have one or two patch-specific articles for later changes that are more complex than 8.9's stat/cost tunings, but no website this time.

Examples of what upcoming changes will be trying to do below (more details about exactly how to come pretty soon). While these changes are things we think should help open up the game somewhat they're also changes we believe will lead to good improvement on other grounds as well.

Changing mid/late game marksmen damage so they're less able to burst squishies but still able to grind through defense stacking targets. That gives other squishy champs longer windows to act later game while still letting marksmen kill tanky enemies effectively enough over time.
Adjusting mage mana access so they can contest lane against a wider range of champions at early levels but also can't just cast on CD as much mid game onwards (results in excessive waveclear power in particular)
Increasing the damage AP champs deal to towers,so that, regardless of position, they can contribute more to tower/base taking, reducing dependency on bot lane for that function. Might need to be paired with some increase in tower tankiness so they're not falling faster than at present.
Making it easier for champions from a range of positions/classes to carry, so teams aren't as dependent on their marksman's damage output every game to be successful. A fed mid, top or jungle champ should more often be a good choice for a team to rally around and support.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

473 Comments

ShaianApr 20, 201819 votes

Any update on Zyra's plant HP being adressed for mid-lategame?

VanjieApr 20, 201817 votes

Meddler, I am really not trying to be that one but I feel like I have to at this point. I don't understand how you guys can continue to work on champions that the community do not want worked on. You know exactly what champions need a ton of work and you know what needs to be worked on. Why, in 2018, are you guys till prioritizing work on Ahri, Ryze, Lux, Jinx, Jhin, Ezreal and all these other champions when you are aware that champions like Karma, Lissandra, Morde, Skarner, Malzahar and many others are virtually ignored? These are champions who are, per you, not slated for a VGU anytime soon and you are well aware of all of their problems on a thematic, kit, and art level. What exactly have you and any other Developer done about this? You give another rework to Ryze on top of 2 VGU, you spend almost a year on Lux buffing multiple parts of her kit, and you spend 3 patch cycles on Ahri.

Karma Lissandra Malzahar Mordekaiser Skarner

The mains and players have spoken. They want change, they want work done, and they are tired of being ignored. I don't understand how the above champions can go ignored for years and you prioritize work on the same champions every year. I am disgusted that in 6 years I still have to fight for Karma to receive work done on her all the way from kit changes, art changes and lore changes. I am very upset to see Morde mains still plea for work to be done on him because you ruined his identity and he still has all those bugs. It's insulting to see Ahri receive all these changes to non-interactive parts of her kit but you cannot give Lissandra a decent passive that has been requested for almost a year now. Don't get me started on Skarner.

If you are aware of all these threads, comments, pleas, and input about the above champions, why are the same champions year after year receiving work?

You want receipts?

Karma -

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/m3rjfjmX-riot-another-ryze-rework-but-zero-work-on-karma-lissandra-skarner-and-morde

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AO26O9Zp-riot-developers-in-hindsight-we-shouldve-listened-to-karma-mains

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2ezJ4OML-riot-developers-karma-is-solidified-as-nothing

Lissandra -

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/search?query=lissandra&application_id=PEr1qIcT&created_from=now-1w&content_type=discussion

Morde -

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/kL0E0V7A-riot-honestly-canshould-we-help-you-with-things-like-these

I mean SERIOUSLY Meddler? That is just a general search on the boards and the threads that I created about Karma. Look at all the comments, likes, and views. This is just recently to. Why is Ahri, Ryze and Lux being prioritized for all of this work when you are very aware of what actually needs to be worked on? Again, I am not going to go into exactly what needs to be worked on for Karma, Lissandra, Morde, Skarner, Malzahar and all of the other champions that are ignored by you and the entire Development team. You know what they need at this point.

YOU AND YOUR DEVELOPERS NEED TO DO YOUR JOB AND DO IT BETTER. I mean it is so insulting to see a thread explaining why you are working on Ryze again and saying it isn't a rework, but it is. You cannot be bothered to do that for any other champion for the past couple years but it always seems like Ahri gets a comment about her balance and work being done on her. Lux gets a comment. Ezreal gets something. Jhin gets something.

Karma Lissandra Malzahar Mordekaiser Skarner

Don't make us wait for more months and years for obvious work you are blatantly ignoring at this point. It is insulting.

Rework QuinnApr 20, 201811 votes

I'm not Meddler, but I can give you an answer.

I'm just going to use Quinn as an example because I'm more familiar with her, and she arguably fits in the same category as the champions you're listing. I've been a Quinn player since before her rework. Personally, I dislike new Quinn. There are many in the Quinn Mains community that share the same opinion. If I could have my way, I'd want a full VGU for her tomorrow with melee form Valor back.

The reason that Quinn hasn't had a full-scale VGU put into production, along with Mordekaiser, Skarner and others like Fiddlesticks and Rammus is because the idea isn't there right now. Riot's list of reworks isn't in a concrete order. They likely throw around ideas for all the champions on their "needs a VGU" list at the same time. I don't remember which Rioter specifically stated it, but there were something like 3 completely different Urgot reworks scrapped over the last few years. They get their ideas, then they put them into preliminary testing.

I'll use Quinn as an example again. Here are the questions I'd ask of myself and (if I was the lead designer of Quinn's eventual VGU) what I would ask my team working on her:

Does it expand on Quinn's theme while preserving her core feel and character?
Does it offer unique qualities from other champions in the game?
Does it provide a long-term solution to the issues currently present in Quinn's kit?

If the answer to most of those questions is "no" or "not really", they may scrap the entire thing and recycle some of the ideas on future releases/reworks. An example would be the Urgot reworks that were scrapped. In the case of Quinn, Riot's even stated that she is in the higher part of the list for a VGU. Quinn has a lot of character potential, but right now, they're working on other projects and don't have a solid foundation for a Quinn VGU in place. As a result, they can look to make changes to the current version of the champion aimed at a more short-term time frame, and in Quinn's case, her recent batch of QoL buffs came as a result of this. RiotXenogenic approached the community with some proposed changes, and did an excellent job of weighing our feedback. It's not the Quinn VGU I eventually want to see, but I've accepted that will come with time.

The answer to those questions has to be a "yes." If after testing one part isn't working out, they may go back to the drawing board and try to figure that specific part out. We saw this in the behind the scenes video of Irelia's development - the kit was mostly done, but the W was still taking shape. They re-tuned and refined the W until they felt it served a proper place in both her kit and her concept.

With the reworks released in the past year or so (Urgot, Evelynn, Swain, and Irelia) it's likely those names were being tossed around at the same time as newer reworks/updates that are now well into production or have just started rolling. Who knows, there could even be an in-progress Nunu update that's been in the works since 2015, but they could never get it right until now, and finally gave it the green light.

I would find it extremely difficult to believe that Riot hasn't explored and potentially even tested a few Mordekaiser reworks behind the scenes.

Very Cash MoneyApr 20, 201813 votes

Yo meddler what is your thoughts on kindred? I feel like she falls a bit flat compared to her awesome identety/character.

Specifically her passive often feels more like a downside/chore to gain any sort of power than a positive thing for the champ which I feel is a shame. Also wolf feels more like a sidekick than a part of the champ which is a shame too, although this has been a problem since release.

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 201815 votes

With you on Wolf not feeling as fully realized as he should, which is a shame given the intended relationship of equals concept.

Gameplay wise let me find someone with more familiarity with whether or not we've looked at them recently to jump in here (I'm still catching up on missed discussions).

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 20, 201830 votes

I recently talked about them with their original designer, Wrekz, and he had some thoughts as to how to get them to a more enjoyable experience. On his list of suggestions, he suggested stuff like (straight from the proposal he sent me):

Generally making marks a bit easier to acquire, but a bit less powerful per mark.
Marks being able to spawn in either jungle, rather than only the opponents'.
Reducing mark warm-up time on enemy champions to try and get a cleaner balance between champion and jungle marks.
Removing W -> Q interaction and just having Q's cooldown reduced when it hits a champion or monster.
Increasing W radius to let Wolf feel more useful instead of it being primarily a mobility enabler.
Or some other effect to accomplish the same goal of making Wolf feel more useful.
Possibly just base 550 range instead of the increasing range with marks.
If the above are a too powerful, probably some base stat or damage nerfs here and there.

I'm mostly open to stuff like this being tested, though there's a lot going on here, so it could take some time to validate. If we felt more confident there was a specific kind of work that would be exciting to Kindred players as well as a pretty clear path forward, that would increase the likelihood we would take on the work. We get a lot of requests to do these champ readjustments, so frequently it's a matter of when there's resources to do it more-so than a desire to test something out. I (and others on the design teams) do tend to love these types of explorations, however, so when we do have that clearer goal to go chase, it's usually possible to get someone on board with going for it.

Little CelestialApr 20, 201816 votes

How about having this Rakan effect, where if Kindred attack in melee range, Wolf does the autoattack? Would feel much more of an equal partner with zero mechanical changes.

NiteWoofApr 21, 20185 votes

There would need to be some sort of buff or advantage to being in melee range because, as a squishy adc, melee range is the absolute last place you want to be. It only works on Rakan due to his kit being rather up close and personal...

KagusutchiApr 21, 20183 votes

That's actually a pretty interesting idea ! I'm liking it ! To go even a little bit further, Wolf would deal damage based on your missing health ? ( since you've already got auto attacked by kindred beforehand ) It would emphasize the thematic of " death is coming to you "

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 201812 votes

Quick note: I'm booked for most of the rest of the day, so probably won't be able to respond much more for a while after this post. Would like to though, particularly given first thread in a while. Will be back later in the day.

Perma CCApr 20, 201811 votes

Still awaiting the much needed Syndra Q revert. Any word on when this is going to happen? Syndra has been struggling alot lately imo. Would really like to see her given a bit of love.

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 201812 votes

We've been talking about Syndra this week. Nothing concrete enough to share yet. I'll get an update on our thoughts in a post next week, though might be 'here's what we're considering' not 'here's what we're planning to do'.

CorundtheCabbageApr 20, 201811 votes

There was some talk a while back about giving Syndra some help and potentially looking at her passive, given that she's not done so well recently. Is this going to be pushed back even further due to the current mana changes in testing? (given that other changes like the Lux ones, which i really like the look of btw, are being looked at I hope the answer's no). Thanks for any info you can give!

ThornyZyraApr 20, 201811 votes

Any thoughts on Zyra?

PapaGreg21Apr 20, 20189 votes

This isn't a question as much as a feedback comment, but the Nautilus mana buff has helped his jungle clear a lot. I think you guys did a good job with that.

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20185 votes

Good to hear. We've seen his performance improve in jungle, top and support all roughly equally, which is good (not trying to lock him to any of those positions specifically). Possible we might need to do some more to help out his jungling specifically at some point though, from memory it's better, but still lagging behind the others somewhat.

JmannNobodyApr 20, 20188 votes

Mordekaiser buffs when???

Deep Terror NamiApr 20, 20186 votes

Glad you enjoyed Japan! I'd like to go back someday for vacation.

On the topic of allowing players to take champions into other lanes; Don't glare too hard at me when I bring this up, but what about taking champions created specifically to be solely duo lane Supports into a solo one? I don't expect or want this, but I'm curious what you feel about it!

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20188 votes

That one's trickier than most for two reasons:

In some cases the kits in question, even if they had the right power level, just don't have interesting or healthy enough game play when they're in a solo lane. Topp Lulu against melee in the past for example, versus duo lane Lulu who's a much healthier experience.
Some kits have a lot of power that's dependent on having an ally to work with. If they're able to effectively solo lane without getting benefit from that power they'll likely be pretty out of line in a duo lane where they are contributing that power. Soraka's probably the strongest example of this.

That's not to say it might not be both possible and worthwhile to get some supports into other spots. Likely to be a larger task than for other individual champs though and need to be approached on a case by case basis.

Frozen DivaApr 20, 20186 votes

Welcome back Meddler :)

So we got some Lissandra buffs but what happened to the passive changes? :o Just curious!

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 201810 votes

Still planned, but taking a while. Going to try some different stuff when time permits, for now there's a lot else I'm having to prioritize first though. The Live team concluded some straight power buffs in the meantime were therefore needed too.

PopCorn Chick3nApr 20, 20186 votes

Hi Meddler, what do you think of Zyra's current state in mid lane right now? Especially her plants. What do you think of her current Q synergy with her kit compared the old circular one?

limebusterApr 20, 20185 votes

Hey! Glad to see u back! What’s ur thoughts on the lux changes and also miss fortune atm? :)

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 201810 votes

Thank you!

Lux: The stuff on PBE (assuming that's what your asking about) has some promise I think. In particular the thesis of 'what if so much of Lux's laning play didn't involve harassing with a very hard to dodge, but very mana intensive E'. Possible that shifting power around could do a lot of good. Don't think we've got all the details right at the least though.

MF: Seems in an ok spot. We'll need to take a look at all marksmen after the upcoming item changes, likely they'll all shift around at least a bit in terms of power and playstyle.

Blossom CrownApr 20, 20185 votes

Hello Meddler, has there been anymore discussion on Syndra and the reversion of the last remnant of her MYMU - the Q passive?

It's quite a popular topic amongst avid Syndra players.

RamaeroApr 20, 20185 votes

First post on Dev Corner, although have read them on and off for about a year after almost three years of playing league. Please hear me out despite this being a lengthy post.

I am a Talon main ever since I started league of legends. I want to discuss Talon, and I am going to separate them into two parts in this comment. The first part is on a discussion made by Cloud Walker on bug fixes and other changes on Talon, and the second part is on my discussion on an adequate update to Talon's kit. In the post I made, I am very passionate about this change I am proposing, and would really like some feedback. The link is below. in Part 1 of this post.

**1. ** I made an in depth post on a Talon update/rework recently called "In depth Talon update/mini rework, For RiotRepertoir and Meddler", that would be similar to the extent of the changes of Xin Zhaos last big update. I put a lot of time and effort into contemplating this change in addition to constructing it into a discussion. Sadly it has gotten very little feedback. Link to my post is this - https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9AxTIRhc-in-depth-talon-updatemini-rework-for-riotrepertoir-and-meddler

I cannot express how much I would appreciate it if the two of you, RiotRepertoir and Meddler, would take a look at my post and give feedback, even if you just look at the ability changes, and don't read the lengthy part that follows which elaborates on the changes some more. If everything I suggested would not come to light(would be awesome if it did),I would be really happy if even one of the new mechanics to the changes I proposed would be implemented in Talons gameplay, with the one I would like the most being his secondary W which I called "Keen Blade" and would act as two alternate abilities similar to how Jayce has 2 abilities for his q, w, and e with Talon it would just be his W; If even that was brought into the game I would be extremely grateful, and just mentioning here, I made him weaker in other parts of his kit to allow for this change and he actually has a weaker quick burst and is less likely to one shot someone in the laning phase and early game.

If it is not something that will be implemented in game at all, even though I would be disappointed, I'll accept that; however please give me some feedback given the extent in which I went into the discussion. I know it is long but please at least just read the specifics on the abilities and if your interested then you can read on with how I elaborate on the specifics and what the changes would mean for Talon in game.

**2. ** Concerning Cloud Walkers post titled "@RiotRepertoir, can we do something about TALON?", RiotRepertoir had replied and in his response he implied that he will fix Talons Q bug/increase his Q range. In that post he also expressed concerns of his e being buggy and will backflip rather than go in the intended direction of the player depending on certain terrain/approach to certain terrain. There is more to his post that I think should be given thought as well, but these two are particularly what I wanted to bring to your attention. On a side note to this, Talon's movement speed is 335, and before the assassin update it was 350. I felt this movement speed nerf was not deserved even with the new wall hop, and would be willing to sacrifice slightly how fast his movement speed is when using his e to bring it back to 350, ideal would be 355 like yi and pantheon. Regardless of mobility in assassins kit in general I think every assassin should have 350 ms simply because of the fact that they are assassins. About when do you think the bug fixes would be made, and potentially the increase to his movement speed to 350 or 355?

Sorry for making this post so long despite your limited time. I tried to make this post concise but it ended up being longer than I intended, it is difficult when I have a lot to explain. Please at least one of you give me some feedback on my post for an update to Talon's kit, even if the changes won't be implemented it will still mean a lot if either of you at least took the time to see if it would help add to the games diversity in champions and make Talon a more unique champion that compared to the current Talon has a greater potential to have less impact over a game and is much more difficult to get kills early, but also a greater potential to have more of an impact over a game, especially mid and late game and in teamfights and skirmishes. I really hope you both like the overall direction of his changes.

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20184 votes

Tagging this for response later.

RamaeroApr 20, 20183 votes

Thanks so much! looking forward to hearing your feedback when you have time later. Thanks again.

RiotMeddlerApr 22, 20188 votes

Ok, gave that thread a look. Gotta be honest, it's enormous and so would take a huge amount of time to respond to appropriately. I'm certainly down to chat about Talon, but would help a lot if you could summarize say a couple of your key concerns and a couple of concise suggestions. I'll then share some thoughts on those (and/or tag someone else in who's more familiar with Talon details if needs be).

RamaeroApr 23, 20183 votes

Thanks for trying to read my thread despite the limited time you have to spare for this, sadly yes it is lengthy... I really wish I did a better job of compressing everything.

As for this reply this is as concise as I can be...I edited this out two times for the sake of condensing the length. I know you can only spare so much time for this as you have other things working on, but I really hope reading this will make you more interested in reading my thread. Please at least read the part just giving the specifics on the changes in his abilities which is less than half the length of my thread, aside from that the rest is elaboration and clarification.

That being said I want to point out Talons gameplay is still my favorite among assassins and he has been my main champion since I started for almost 3 years now, over 600,000 pts in him, and I climbed from silver 3 or 4(forget exactly where I placed) to gold 4 with him this season so far with over 300 games on him in ranked this season. I also have a different playstyle to him than most and prefer taking ghost over ignite, and phase rush over electrocute, with the same thing last season(stormraiders surge over thunderlords).

Now onto the concerns you asked me to discuss:

Talons gameplay frequently feels very straightforward and simple when he tries to kill a squishy which is usually pretty easy and takes generally 1-2 seconds(sometimes too easy and less than 1 second if I am very ahead), afterwards trying to re-engage to do anything more in a fight is generally very risky and not worth it without his ult, and many times having just one successful kill isn't enough to win the fight or be worth it, so your stuck between trying to get an objective or cs and hope your team doesn't die without you, or reengage as a sacrificial suicide bomber(with no ult) because the team still needs you, which will really suck if after all of that the enemy team still ended up winning the fight despite the Talons efforts.

Thus my solution is to sacrifice Talon's ability to do burst damage so that it is considerably less and gives the enemy more time to react an offer some type of counterplay to Talon and in general not die quite as fast; however In return for lowering his intitial burst damage, give Talon more mobility like the dash I discuss in my thread, and an additional skill shot ability as a part of his W as part of his damage. In addition to that upon getting a takedown, which will be more difficult to achieve because of his lowered burst damage, he then gets a spike in his ability to deal damage as well as a spike in his mobility similar to how Katerina, Master yi, and Darius get benefits during takedowns/kills in a fight.

This doesn't mean Talon would not be able to quickly one shot someone, just that the amount of gold and level difference he would need to do so will be higher and he will be less capable of that early game, as well as he would need an extra reliance on landing skill shots to kill.

This change to Talon will for me, and I believe for many others who like Talon, will make him a more rewarding and enjoyable champion to play. He will have an increased skill ceiling with more room for error, but a potential to do even greater things if someone does really well with him in certain situations, particularly in teamfights; he will be less about killing someone quickly, but in return will have more mobility, intricacy, and variety in how he approaches fights and gets kills.

My original thread dives into this in which I have a detailed idea for his rework, including damage specifics, cooldowns, etc. I know the length is daunting but please only read the part of the thread that has the ability specifications with what the abilities actually do in addition to the damage and the cooldowns; that part is less than half of the entire thread's length. Don't bother reading beyond that unless you are curious of the additional details and my perspective on the changes.

Thanks again for helping me with this.

RiotRiot StashuApr 25, 201813 votes

Hey Ramero! Talon update designer here.

Thanks for taking the time to condense your thoughts. I appreciate that you focused on the higher level gameplay concerns and direction; it makes it easier to understand your thinking and find where we agree or have different takes.

That said, now that I clearly understand your reasoning, I think I have some bad news for you -- many of the problems you've identified here are intended strengths/weaknesses of Talon :(. I'll give some background:

Damage-dealing champions broadly fall into 1 of 2 camps - burst damage, or sustained damage. Burst damage champions give their opponents very little time to react and can quickly execute them in the right situation, but have very long cooldowns and have to be careful about choosing the perfect time. Sustained damage champions are ready to fight at all times thanks to their shorter cooldowns, but in compensation need to spend more time with their opponents to take them down. It's important to have both of these profiles in the game to appeal to players with varied tastes and to give some texture/variety to the way champions deal their damage. Since it has to happen in such a short window, burst damage tends to be more straight-forward than sustained damage in the moment, with much of the nuance and gameplay contained in the moments that led up to the burst (ie; did the burst champion make good use of their abilities to find a clever path and bypass the victim's allies?).

You might see where this is going : Talon was designed for players who prefer the burst damage experience. When tackling the update, we made it a point to preserve this since it was something that many Talon players cared deeply about; to those that we spoke to, burst was a core part of what made Talon Talon. So, we intentionally preserved that part of Talon while trying to add some distinction to the kit through his unparalleled map mobility. That's not to say that a Talon kit with less burst and more repeatable damage would be bad design or less fun by any means, just that it would appeal to a different audience (more of the Yasuo/Yi camp, less the Zed/Talon camp).

At the end of the day, a single champion cannot deliver on every gameplay experience, and by keeping each champion's gameplay and thematic identity clear and focused, they all get to be unique and powerful in their own ways. Talon's way is a very bursty one, so I hope it makes sense when I say I don't think we'd consider any changes to Talon that shift him significantly away from being a burst assassin. I'm really glad you've enjoyed Talon so much up until now and really appreciate all the thought and time you put into this.

Hope that helps shed some insight on our thought process, and sorry if that was disappointing to hear!

Best, -Stashu

Pokemonred200Apr 25, 20185 votes

I for one liked old Talon because he had AOE burst that was only matched by Katarina. While I do appreciate the new rework's passive and map mobility, I am a bit sad that the AOE had to get cut down as a result. I like everything else about his rework though, because I love roaming assassins (a reason why item 3077 item 3142 item 3117 are among my favorite items)

OmegasisXApr 20, 20185 votes

[deleted]

DovahKingApr 20, 20185 votes

I would like to hear what's Riot's current opinion on Garen , is he fine, is he in need of work, and if so, what areas are they looking to hit, and what priority is he on. He has been steadily going downhill since runes reforged, he doesn't synergize well with any keystone. Even his best one, Grasp, he doesn't use it any more effectively than say Darius, and Darius doenst even use Grasp.

VekknaApr 20, 20185 votes

Progress on Zyra plant health changes?

Can you ballpark a patch number or range of patch numbers? If we're going to be waiting until July/August I'd rather know now instead of feeling annoyed after every PBE update.

RainfallApr 20, 20182 votes

About the new Ryze rework on the pbe,will it be aimed towards making Ryze a champion available to all players or will he remain a champion balanced around the LCS exclusively?

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20186 votes

It's a final stab at trying to better balance him for regular play and organized play (which includes things like Clash and other tournaments, not just LCS). If it doesn't accomplish that however we'll be putting future time for a while into other champs.

PremadeXayahADCApr 20, 20181 votes

If that does not work, could we expect a new Ulti? or maybe a new passive?

And with other champions do you mean Ezreal for example?

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20189 votes

If it doesn't work it means we'll be putting time instead into other champs rather than constantly sinking time into Ryze to try and maintain his identity while having him be playable in both regular and organized play.

Morning RavenApr 20, 20182 votes

Will you guys ever find a way to create meaningful marksmen subclasses?

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20183 votes

Are you looking for marksmen subclasses because you believe marksmen all do the same thing and therefore want gameplay changes, or because you want the classification system expanded? If the classification system, we decided not to force marksmen sub classes because that system was built to help us assess and talk about champions and benefit just wasn't there when we tried to group marksmen into groupings, in contrast with most other cases.

UltîmaApr 20, 20184 votes

Wouldn't that be indicative of a need for Marksmen to be more differentiated from one-another though? If a huge subset of champions don't carry enough differences between them to be effectively categorized into, say, Slayers vs. Snipers, doesn't that mean that ADCs don't have meaningful niches between them beyond "scales hard and kills things through AAs"?

I find that surprising considering the existence of Ashe and Jhin vs Vayne and Kaisa .

Furthermore, isn't the issue of ADCs having 2 or 3 super dominant picks at any given time sort of because they aren't distinct enough from one-another? I feel like, if anything, Riot should be actively looking into this issue and make Marksmen more diverse overall.

ChaddyFantomeApr 21, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't that be indicative of a need for Marksmen to be more differentiated from one-another though? If a huge subset of champions don't carry enough differences between them to be effectively categorized into, say, Slayers vs. Snipers, doesn't that mean that ADCs don't have meaningful niches between them beyond "scales hard and kills things through AAs"?

I find that surprising considering the existence of and vs and .

Furthermore, isn't the issue of ADCs having 2 or 3 super dominant picks at any given time sort of because they aren't distinct enough from one-another? I feel like, if anything, Riot should be actively looking into this issue and make Marksmen more diverse overall.

Agreed.

I'd argue we are already kind of on our way there too. We have stuff like: Ashe Varus Jhin with utility Kaisa Vayne Lucian as Duelists Graves Urgot (they both kinda exist on opposite sides of a single dichotomy imo) as your more Burly ranged damage dealers.

MissFortune Sivir who are more AoE and teamfight oriented.

etc etc.

These diliniations aren't as clear as other classes for sure, but i wouldn't say those don't, let alone shouldn't exist, because they very much should and do.

Shadow HazardApr 20, 20181 votes

Quite sour that there was claim from multiple rioters about giving irelia attention for her jungle if it proves to be too bad of an option after the targeted jungle pre-release changes. Even after being called out on the radio silence and not being true on the claim of supporting champs in more role options (something literally touched upon in this gameplay post), and having responses that is so far turning out to be a lie.

Not like there aren't options. Could revert one or both of the jungle targeted nerfs from pre release, allow the passive stack to reset on all monsters instead of only epics, let the stacks fall off one at a time similar to jax.

Another point of thought in relation to the power shift out of the ult. Why not let it be more similar to the old ult of facilitating resets for Q. So pull damage from the ult and put that damage into Q's ratio and have the CC utility start low and improve more heavily per rank (even something like 0.5/1/2 secs).

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20185 votes

Irelia discussion happened while I was out and I haven't had a chance to get caught up on that particular topic. Would like to, support for multiple positions especially though. Will dig into that today and get back to you.

Shadow HazardApr 20, 20182 votes

Welcome back to the fire btw.

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20184 votes

Thanks, it's warming. Sometimes very warming.

Irelia jungle wise our tentative plan is to remove the reduced damage to monsters effect once we've confident she's stabilized in lane.

Mr LismosApr 20, 20181 votes

@meddler

in case you will ship the target champions only toggle option would be nice to have some sort of indication on the hud in game that this option is off/on for clarity sake.

Pµrple HazeApr 20, 20181 votes

The target champion toggle has me wondering, any chance we could get a double tap to self cast option? It's kind of annoying having to hover over your champ during a hectic teamfight to cast something on yourself or move a finger over to hold something down.

Just seems like something League should have for ease of gameplay, since every other MOBA has it
[sg-lulu]

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20186 votes

Is there something I'm missing about why the current self cast option doesn't work for what you're looking to do? (Alt+Q, Alt+W etc is from memory still the default keybinding)