Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 20

RiotMeddler·4/20/2018, 2:51:46 PM·1 votes·76,641 views

Hey folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Back to regular posting schedule

I've been back in the office this week catching up on everything after a couple of weeks in Japan (somewhere I’ve wanted to visit for years, was a fantastic time). Should be back to the standard two posts a week thing now. Apologies if I end up repeating anything that's already been talked about a lot in my absence, I think I've got a pretty good handle on what has/hasn't already been discussed, but might have missed something.

Input Buffering

Something we've been doing on some individual abilities for a while is making it so that, if their button is pressed just before it would be useable (e.g. while in the middle of another spell or just before it comes off CD), the command is saved and then executed shortly after. A particularly clear example of that is on Lee Sin W back in 7.11.Buffering like that makes executing combos and other cases of precise timing smoother on connections that aren't extremely low ping.

While working on Irelia we developed some new tech that makes input buffering like that much easier to apply to other abilities. It's been working well on Irelia so we're looking to roll it out to almost all abilities in the game shortly. That change is currently in testing on the PBE and we’re hoping to have it be part of 8.9.

Target Champions Only as a Toggle option

At present it's possible to make it so you can’t click on non champions with spells/attacks by holding down a specific key while casting/attacking (default: ~). That works well in some cases and for some players, but can be pretty cumbersome for others. We're currently working on an optional setting (would be found in the Gameplay Options part of the menu) that would let you change that from a Press and Hold approach to something you can toggle on and off with a key press instead.

That's just getting some initial internal testing now, so probably won't be on the PBE for a little bit at least. It's also possible, though I'd imagine unlikely, that we find something that makes it a bad idea to add that functionality to the game. Letting you folks know ahead of time though since I know this is a feature a number of people have asked for over the years. Wanted to provide visibility into how we're looking at it as a result, regardless of what the timing and outcome of that might be.

Shifting approach somewhat on some midseason stuff

As previously mentioned we want to open up positions to more classes. That would allow players who wished to to play champs in ways they currently can't and enable new team comps. At the same time we'd also want to ensure what currently works is still effective - broaden options, not force anyone onto something different. Based on that goal we set ourselves a target of getting mages into bot lane in midseason. After a lot of experimentation though we're shifting our approach somewhat there. We tested some large changes, which were very effective in letting mages be powerful bot lane choices. They resulted however in a lot of game balance costs though, some breakdown in interesting/healthy bot lane play and a lot of disruption when done all at once.

As a result what we're aiming to do instead is a range of changes that both improve some other issues and lay some groundwork for getting more classes into each position. That includes, but isn't limited to, mages in botlane. These changes won't radically redefine how the game plays. Instead they'll be part of a gradual process (multiple patches, not just 8.9) to open things up more, avoid balance costs and other unforeseen consequences of changing too much at once. Might see a few champs being played in new ways after them certainly, but not a massive meta overhaul. LoL.com publishing will also be quieter this year as a result too. We'll have one or two patch-specific articles for later changes that are more complex than 8.9's stat/cost tunings, but no website this time.

Examples of what upcoming changes will be trying to do below (more details about exactly how to come pretty soon). While these changes are things we think should help open up the game somewhat they're also changes we believe will lead to good improvement on other grounds as well.

  • Changing mid/late game marksmen damage so they're less able to burst squishies but still able to grind through defense stacking targets. That gives other squishy champs longer windows to act later game while still letting marksmen kill tanky enemies effectively enough over time.
  • Adjusting mage mana access so they can contest lane against a wider range of champions at early levels but also can't just cast on CD as much mid game onwards (results in excessive waveclear power in particular)
  • Increasing the damage AP champs deal to towers,so that, regardless of position, they can contribute more to tower/base taking, reducing dependency on bot lane for that function. Might need to be paired with some increase in tower tankiness so they're not falling faster than at present.
  • Making it easier for champions from a range of positions/classes to carry, so teams aren't as dependent on their marksman's damage output every game to be successful. A fed mid, top or jungle champ should more often be a good choice for a team to rally around and support.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

473 Comments

Shaian4/20/2018, 3:37:42 PM19 votes

Any update on Zyra's plant HP being adressed for mid-lategame?

Vanjie4/20/2018, 4:43:11 PM17 votes

Meddler, I am really not trying to be that one but I feel like I have to at this point. I don't understand how you guys can continue to work on champions that the community do not want worked on. You know exactly what champions need a ton of work and you know what needs to be worked on. Why, in 2018, are you guys till prioritizing work on Ahri, Ryze, Lux, Jinx, Jhin, Ezreal and all these other champions when you are aware that champions like Karma, Lissandra, Morde, Skarner, Malzahar and many others are virtually ignored? These are champions who are, per you, not slated for a VGU anytime soon and you are well aware of all of their problems on a thematic, kit, and art level. What exactly have you and any other Developer done about this? You give another rework to Ryze on top of 2 VGU, you spend almost a year on Lux buffing multiple parts of her kit, and you spend 3 patch cycles on Ahri.

Karma Lissandra Malzahar Mordekaiser Skarner

The mains and players have spoken. They want change, they want work done, and they are tired of being ignored. I don't understand how the above champions can go ignored for years and you prioritize work on the same champions every year. I am disgusted that in 6 years I still have to fight for Karma to receive work done on her all the way from kit changes, art changes and lore changes. I am very upset to see Morde mains still plea for work to be done on him because you ruined his identity and he still has all those bugs. It's insulting to see Ahri receive all these changes to non-interactive parts of her kit but you cannot give Lissandra a decent passive that has been requested for almost a year now. Don't get me started on Skarner.

If you are aware of all these threads, comments, pleas, and input about the above champions, why are the same champions year after year receiving work?

You want receipts?

Karma -

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/m3rjfjmX-riot-another-ryze-rework-but-zero-work-on-karma-lissandra-skarner-and-morde

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AO26O9Zp-riot-developers-in-hindsight-we-shouldve-listened-to-karma-mains

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2ezJ4OML-riot-developers-karma-is-solidified-as-nothing

Lissandra -

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/search?query=lissandra&application_id=PEr1qIcT&created_from=now-1w&content_type=discussion

Morde -

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/kL0E0V7A-riot-honestly-canshould-we-help-you-with-things-like-these


I mean SERIOUSLY Meddler? That is just a general search on the boards and the threads that I created about Karma. Look at all the comments, likes, and views. This is just recently to. Why is Ahri, Ryze and Lux being prioritized for all of this work when you are very aware of what actually needs to be worked on? Again, I am not going to go into exactly what needs to be worked on for Karma, Lissandra, Morde, Skarner, Malzahar and all of the other champions that are ignored by you and the entire Development team. You know what they need at this point.

YOU AND YOUR DEVELOPERS NEED TO DO YOUR JOB AND DO IT BETTER. I mean it is so insulting to see a thread explaining why you are working on Ryze again and saying it isn't a rework, but it is. You cannot be bothered to do that for any other champion for the past couple years but it always seems like Ahri gets a comment about her balance and work being done on her. Lux gets a comment. Ezreal gets something. Jhin gets something.

Karma Lissandra Malzahar Mordekaiser Skarner

Don't make us wait for more months and years for obvious work you are blatantly ignoring at this point. It is insulting.

Very Cash Money4/20/2018, 2:57:41 PM13 votes

Yo meddler what is your thoughts on kindred? I feel like she falls a bit flat compared to her awesome identety/character.

Specifically her passive often feels more like a downside/chore to gain any sort of power than a positive thing for the champ which I feel is a shame. Also wolf feels more like a sidekick than a part of the champ which is a shame too, although this has been a problem since release.

RiotMeddler4/20/2018, 3:30:27 PM12 votes

Quick note: I'm booked for most of the rest of the day, so probably won't be able to respond much more for a while after this post. Would like to though, particularly given first thread in a while. Will be back later in the day.

CorundtheCabbage4/20/2018, 3:49:19 PM11 votes

There was some talk a while back about giving Syndra some help and potentially looking at her passive, given that she's not done so well recently. Is this going to be pushed back even further due to the current mana changes in testing? (given that other changes like the Lux ones, which i really like the look of btw, are being looked at I hope the answer's no). Thanks for any info you can give!

Perma CC4/20/2018, 3:44:01 PM11 votes

Still awaiting the much needed Syndra Q revert. Any word on when this is going to happen? Syndra has been struggling alot lately imo. Would really like to see her given a bit of love.

ThornyZyra4/20/2018, 4:12:23 PM11 votes

Any thoughts on Zyra?

PapaGreg214/20/2018, 2:56:00 PM9 votes

This isn't a question as much as a feedback comment, but the Nautilus mana buff has helped his jungle clear a lot. I think you guys did a good job with that.

JmannNobody4/20/2018, 4:15:42 PM8 votes

Mordekaiser buffs when???

PopCorn Chick3n4/20/2018, 4:09:49 PM6 votes

Hi Meddler, what do you think of Zyra's current state in mid lane right now? Especially her plants. What do you think of her current Q synergy with her kit compared the old circular one?

Frozen Diva4/20/2018, 3:17:21 PM6 votes

Welcome back Meddler :)

So we got some Lissandra buffs but what happened to the passive changes? :o Just curious!

Deep Terror Nami4/20/2018, 3:09:51 PM6 votes

Glad you enjoyed Japan! I'd like to go back someday for vacation.

On the topic of allowing players to take champions into other lanes; Don't glare too hard at me when I bring this up, but what about taking champions created specifically to be solely duo lane Supports into a solo one? I don't expect or want this, but I'm curious what you feel about it!

Vekkna4/20/2018, 11:12:48 PM5 votes

Progress on Zyra plant health changes?

Can you ballpark a patch number or range of patch numbers? If we're going to be waiting until July/August I'd rather know now instead of feeling annoyed after every PBE update.

Blossom Crown4/20/2018, 3:55:39 PM5 votes

Hello Meddler, has there been anymore discussion on Syndra and the reversion of the last remnant of her MYMU - the Q passive?

It's quite a popular topic amongst avid Syndra players.

Ramaero4/20/2018, 6:50:36 PM5 votes

First post on Dev Corner, although have read them on and off for about a year after almost three years of playing league. Please hear me out despite this being a lengthy post.

I am a Talon main ever since I started league of legends. I want to discuss Talon, and I am going to separate them into two parts in this comment. The first part is on a discussion made by Cloud Walker on bug fixes and other changes on Talon, and the second part is on my discussion on an adequate update to Talon's kit. In the post I made, I am very passionate about this change I am proposing, and would really like some feedback. The link is below. in Part 1 of this post.

**1. ** I made an in depth post on a Talon update/rework recently called "In depth Talon update/mini rework, For RiotRepertoir and Meddler", that would be similar to the extent of the changes of Xin Zhaos last big update. I put a lot of time and effort into contemplating this change in addition to constructing it into a discussion. Sadly it has gotten very little feedback. Link to my post is this - https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9AxTIRhc-in-depth-talon-updatemini-rework-for-riotrepertoir-and-meddler

I cannot express how much I would appreciate it if the two of you, RiotRepertoir and Meddler, would take a look at my post and give feedback, even if you just look at the ability changes, and don't read the lengthy part that follows which elaborates on the changes some more. If everything I suggested would not come to light(would be awesome if it did),I would be really happy if even one of the new mechanics to the changes I proposed would be implemented in Talons gameplay, with the one I would like the most being his secondary W which I called "Keen Blade" and would act as two alternate abilities similar to how Jayce has 2 abilities for his q, w, and e with Talon it would just be his W; If even that was brought into the game I would be extremely grateful, and just mentioning here, I made him weaker in other parts of his kit to allow for this change and he actually has a weaker quick burst and is less likely to one shot someone in the laning phase and early game.

If it is not something that will be implemented in game at all, even though I would be disappointed, I'll accept that; however please give me some feedback given the extent in which I went into the discussion. I know it is long but please at least just read the specifics on the abilities and if your interested then you can read on with how I elaborate on the specifics and what the changes would mean for Talon in game.


**2. ** Concerning Cloud Walkers post titled "@RiotRepertoir, can we do something about TALON?", RiotRepertoir had replied and in his response he implied that he will fix Talons Q bug/increase his Q range. In that post he also expressed concerns of his e being buggy and will backflip rather than go in the intended direction of the player depending on certain terrain/approach to certain terrain. There is more to his post that I think should be given thought as well, but these two are particularly what I wanted to bring to your attention. On a side note to this, Talon's movement speed is 335, and before the assassin update it was 350. I felt this movement speed nerf was not deserved even with the new wall hop, and would be willing to sacrifice slightly how fast his movement speed is when using his e to bring it back to 350, ideal would be 355 like yi and pantheon. Regardless of mobility in assassins kit in general I think every assassin should have 350 ms simply because of the fact that they are assassins. About when do you think the bug fixes would be made, and potentially the increase to his movement speed to 350 or 355?


Sorry for making this post so long despite your limited time. I tried to make this post concise but it ended up being longer than I intended, it is difficult when I have a lot to explain. Please at least one of you give me some feedback on my post for an update to Talon's kit, even if the changes won't be implemented it will still mean a lot if either of you at least took the time to see if it would help add to the games diversity in champions and make Talon a more unique champion that compared to the current Talon has a greater potential to have less impact over a game and is much more difficult to get kills early, but also a greater potential to have more of an impact over a game, especially mid and late game and in teamfights and skirmishes. I really hope you both like the overall direction of his changes.

OmegasisX4/20/2018, 9:33:42 PM5 votes

[deleted]

limebuster4/20/2018, 2:54:17 PM5 votes

Hey! Glad to see u back! What’s ur thoughts on the lux changes and also miss fortune atm? :)

Morning Raven4/20/2018, 4:21:57 PM2 votes

Will you guys ever find a way to create meaningful marksmen subclasses?

Rainfall4/20/2018, 3:18:40 PM2 votes

About the new Ryze rework on the pbe,will it be aimed towards making Ryze a champion available to all players or will he remain a champion balanced around the LCS exclusively?

Mr Lismos4/20/2018, 4:53:07 PM1 votes

@meddler

in case you will ship the target champions only toggle option would be nice to have some sort of indication on the hud in game that this option is off/on for clarity sake.

Pµrple Haze4/20/2018, 6:46:05 PM1 votes

The target champion toggle has me wondering, any chance we could get a double tap to self cast option? It's kind of annoying having to hover over your champ during a hectic teamfight to cast something on yourself or move a finger over to hold something down.

Just seems like something League should have for ease of gameplay, since every other MOBA has it
[sg-lulu]

Shadow Hazard4/20/2018, 3:20:22 PM1 votes

Quite sour that there was claim from multiple rioters about giving irelia attention for her jungle if it proves to be too bad of an option after the targeted jungle pre-release changes. Even after being called out on the radio silence and not being true on the claim of supporting champs in more role options (something literally touched upon in this gameplay post), and having responses that is so far turning out to be a lie.

Not like there aren't options. Could revert one or both of the jungle targeted nerfs from pre release, allow the passive stack to reset on all monsters instead of only epics, let the stacks fall off one at a time similar to jax.

Another point of thought in relation to the power shift out of the ult. Why not let it be more similar to the old ult of facilitating resets for Q. So pull damage from the ult and put that damage into Q's ratio and have the CC utility start low and improve more heavily per rank (even something like 0.5/1/2 secs).