Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 23

RiotMeddler·Mar 23, 2017·1 votes·70,344 views

Morning all,

Few thoughts below, quieter week at present as we're still pretty mid-season focused.

Stuff in mid-season

Speaking of which I wanted to run through a few of the things we've already talked about as being in mid-season since I've been seeing some confusion as to why some things aren't being changed right now. In mid-season we'll very likely have some changes to AD itemization, the crit path in particular, along with some defensive item tweaks. Also think it's more likely than not, though not guaranteed yet, that we'll have at least a couple of support item adjustments too. Those will be alongside the Vanguard updates as previously mentioned and some other smaller stuff.

Some context on balance changes on PBE

Jinx - we're exploring the concept of spell that can crit, but telegraphs that behavior heavily, with Jinx's W. Concept shows some promise, current numbers are certainly wrong though. Unlikely we'll ship any form of that change in 7.7, though it'll probably remain for a bit longer at least to get further testing.
Lux - Lux still does pretty well in low Elo's, we see her struggle a fair bit in higher divisions however. We're looking to add a bit of power that's mastery based as a result, provide more power when used well, less that's pubstompy. Not sure yet if the ult partial refund on kill's the way we'll do that yet, though excitement from players using it has been high relative to the amount of power it actually offers.
Graves - We're considering two different approaches for Graves. The first, which from memory is still on PBE, is removing the MR from True Grit, making him more vulnerable to some team comps (those with an enemy jungler with significant magic damage especially). The second is a reduction to Q damage early game (less base, more ratio mainly) looking at making his early game dueling in general weaker.

Galio

Has just had his update go out. Super early days, so far we're seeing him perform better top and mid than jungle or support. In terms of balance it's too soon to judge much, looks like at minimum he's not weak however. Whether that means he's around balanced or on the strong side we should start to get a clearer picture on soon.

264 Comments

Elementalist LuxMar 23, 201751 votes

Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux

Consider letting Lux cast her W while moving.

If you cast Prismatic Barrier while trying to get away from a melee champion that's attacking you, it will often times just let him get an extra auto off. Which puts you in a dissatisfying position - Do you keep running hoping that he doesn't kill you before you get to safety or do you try to use your defensive skill hoping that he doesn't get in the auto which might negate your W and do more damage than if you kept running...

It's a major quality of life improvement.

Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux Lux

Notice me senpai.. It's been a dream of mine since weeks after Lux release..

Sire HippingtonMar 25, 20179 votes

So a melee is rewarded for getting close to an artillery mage - sounds fine by me.

SnoozzyMar 23, 201725 votes

I must ask if the one punch Udyr bug was generated because you tried to change something about Udyr. I know you said that you guys tried stuff with him for a while (the level 20) and said that you are looking to give him something in 7.7. He struggles a lot in the early phases he needs either a buff there or a more rewarding mid game, or trying out a Syndra passive. Quick number changes might keep him in line for a while, he is too weak right now. (particulary Phoenix). Longterm for a rework or small rework you should keep some components I find core about Udyr: flexibility/versatility (role/builds/damage type etc), high uptime and maybe evolving thematic (as Udyr learns to control his rage, better came with the SGU rank 5s evolutions). I am a Master Tier Player with about 4000 games on Udyr and I really don't like how lackluster he is in season 7. I still think that the best option short term is to give him an interesting passive like Syndra's so he can feel a lot better about ranking spells and his mid to late game transition.

SiachiMar 23, 201710 votes

Since we're on topic of some PBE buffs, any context for the other changes to champions like Bard, Kassadin, and Katarina?

If nothing else for Bard, I like that he gets his damage boost scaling more consistently, instead of bigger powerspikes every X chimes.

RiotMeddlerMar 23, 201713 votes

Bard - Too weak early game in particular. Testing some stuff, likely to iterate on what's currently on PBE.

Kass - Should be stronger than he is mid/late (weak laning phase is deliberate, payoff's not quite there).

Kat - Looking at giving opponents more opportunities against her early/mid game, possibly with a shift of damage towards her ult late game (has better counterplay than some other spells by then). Likely to try other directions as well as what's currently on PBE.

SpiritOfSangioMar 23, 20175 votes

For Katarina, something that could be interesting is to rework the indicator of the dagger when you are against her. For now, the indicator show the damage area if Katarian is shunpo-ing to the center, which is way shorter then the actual possible range (if she shunpo on the border to it). For having played against her recently (and not often enough to know her well), it was my major source of frustration.

LastLightOfDayMar 23, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Morning all,

Few thoughts below, quieter week at present as we're still pretty mid-season focused.

Some context on balance changes on PBE

Lux - Lux still does pretty well in low Elo's, we see her struggle a fair bit in higher divisions however. We're looking to add a bit of power that's mastery based as a result, provide more power when used well, less that's pubstompy. Not sure yet if the ult partial refund on kill's the way we'll do that yet, though excitement from players using it has been high relative to the amount of power it actually offers.

As a Lux main (also love the new lore, and fwiw I had this name beforehand), I have some input here. This at first seemed like areally awesome and broken buff. Late gaem, 15 second ultimate, literally every other rotation, On the condition you kill someone with the ult. Thing is, if you kill someone with your ult, you likely one-shot them, and the teamfight is already won. In nearly every case where this ultimate CD reduction proves helpful, you've already won. I don't see how this is "less pubstompy" if anythign it enchances her snowball ability and makes her teamfight more feast/famine(not that she really has a famine).

My friend and I (He's been diamond Lux since season 3) have been discussing various ideas. The most common sentiment among Lux mains tends to be shield buffs. In lane, I 90% of the time skill E-Q-E for trades, as it's just not mana efficient to spend 60 mana for the shield that you get half benefit on. It's fine against DoT's/ignite and feels pretty solid, but in every other instance it means I took a poor trade. I understand the previous nerfs were to the shield due to being extremely consistent as a laner, but that was a while ago in a different meta.

Here's how I see Lux. To carry, you almost always have to one-shot, and she frankly has the tools now, which is great. Locket doesn't grant MR anymore, and there are counterplay options in the form of the active shield, and edge of night as well. What Lux's weakness, and why she will rarely perform well in higher elo is priority. When someone roams she has minimal priority, many laners push harder than her, and are not 100% skillshot reliant and not so squishy as to get 100-0'd easily. But that's her balance point, in exchange for being able to sit at the back of teamfights and contribute she doesn't get priority. The problem comes when she can't do her job. Okay I 100-20'd the adc, now what? The adc heals up and it feels pretty bad :/ Her kit also allows for her to kite the frontline pretty well. Kind of. I don't see her kit needing more damage, so another place to give her power is her kiting power (but wait, bind is already 2 seconds and E had slow increased!) I know. So let's talk about her passive. Passive requires her to be within 550 range there's definite risk there, so let's place the utility reward. We could go for CD reduction, like 1(scaling maybe?) second on proc on enemy champions ( not opinions that'd be absurd), as then that increases her up time, for utility. Or give her movespeed, allowing her to independently kite champions like Shyvana better. However that seems rather oppressive in lane, especially with the E+auto+E combo already often allowing you to steal a free TLD trade with them having issues responding. So attach the movespeed gain to ultimate level. "When proc'ing passive against enemy champions, Lux gains 20% movespeed for 1.5 seconds" which then increases at level 11 and 16 (mid and late game). This way it's not oppressive in lane and gives her options later on. Alternatively have the movespeed scale with AP so that's not noticeable early game and then beceomes useful for positioning later.

Other suggestions I've seen are W shield slightly lower, but for every ally champion hit, the shield increases in size for the return path. I don't like suggestions to shield in general as it's highly variable and inconsistent.

One I think would be interesting is causing her passive to reset her auto attack, like Sona powerchord. When combo'ing it can sometimes be awkward, if I E(1)-q-r-auto, then sometimes they will dash out of the E before I pop it because I have to wait for the auto attack. Other combo is E-E-auto-Q-r-auto, but E-Q-auto-E-R-auto is usually smoothest, but causing passive to reset her auto would make it much smoother, imo.

Anyways TL;DR: this change seems to mostly be a snowball mechanic, relying on Lux's ability to oneshot, which generally means she's won anyways. This is a win-more buff, which isn't necessary in the higher elo demographic you want to help out. Most Lux mains want a shield nerf revert, which ought to be considered, since the meta has changed since that was nerfed originally. Other place to look at is her passive to give her utility, as she frankly doesn't need more damage. Passive interaction inherently is risk reward at 550 range, especially as the game continues. CD refunds based on the passive, or movespeed can reward Lux players for proper positioning.

Sorry for rambling a bit, didn't expect Lux changes to actually hit the PBE.

InTheoryMar 23, 20177 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddlerMar 23, 201713 votes

Not yet, though we'll start talking details really far ahead of launch for runes/masteries work.

TheSingularityMar 24, 20175 votes

Why is graves' knock back against monsters not considered a viable nerf? Given he received it PURELY so he could jungle, it seems unjustified given his abundant AOE dmg, ability to kite fine without it and innate beef. If we consider Kindred as a direct comparison as a champion built PURELY to jungle. Her Q is worse than graves' passive as eventually she runs out of places to dash to and MUST take a hit here and there, and it's a must spam, mana restricted spell. Graves' passive is manaless, the knock back allows more wriggle room than a dash and to top it off he has his own dash should any monsters get close.

Making graves weaker to a specific team comp/champ is not the way to go. It is like saying here is X and you MUST pick X+1 to beat him with there being no other option. We see this with certain ADC's like Vayne when she is somewhat decent or pre nerf Kalista . You don't pick a champion to kill them, YOU MUST BUILD YOUR ENTIRE TEAM COMPOSITION AROUND KILLING THEM! It is similar with some healing champs like Swain Vladimir or DrMundo . If someone doesn't get item 3123 game over because their heals are balanced around its existence. This holds true especially when magic dealing junglers are so weak currently. Only elise and nidalee have a chance of 1v1'ing graves should u nerf that aspect of his kit. Forcing a champ to have an entire composition built around their death is completely unreasonable. A pro player I can understand, banning his signature pick I can understand. But this should never happen in regular play. I shouldn't have to take graves into consideration every time I lock in a champ in blind pick (we don't have normal draft for those who don't know)

As for your other suggestion of lowering his Q damage. It could work but not as well as you hope. His 1v1 damage with his Q isn't the problem. His obscenely safe clears, tankyness and overall kit damage is the problem (stemming from autos and ult). He can completely clear his jungle faster than almost any other champ and come out with more HP. Faster than shyvana, faster than lee hell even faster than ivern if we include the wait time involved with priming his passive. How is this not considered a problem? To never be at risk to an invade, be able to clear faster than just about everyone while having the burst of an assassin, dps of a diver, tankyness of a vanguard and life steal synergy that makes aatrox jealous.

If you want to nerf graves. Get rid of the passive to make him riskier in the jungle. Or obliterate all of his tank stats and the sheer absurdity that is the way his auto attacks interact with life steal affects

WrongNeekoMar 23, 20176 votes

become Nunu a Rework this year?

SiachiMar 23, 20175 votes

After the Warden/Tank update, it's Divers next for class updates, right? Do you think this would be a good spot to look at Lee Sin's kit, or do you think he'd need more attention than that.

RiotMeddlerMar 23, 201718 votes

We haven't made a firm commitment to who we'll be looking at post tanks yet. Divers are certainly a very strong candidate though. If doing divers I think there are quite a few who'd benefit more from the work than Lee Sin (Aatrox and Wukong being top of my mind, Xin Zhao, Panth and others having good arguments for them too).

SiachiMar 23, 20176 votes

I suppose I meant that in the sense of "Will it be a good opportunity try and fix the parts of Lee's kit that have made him problematic in the past, along WITH the ones who need the work to get in a better spot".

But yeah, a diver update would probably be better spent getting those champs into a better spot, if you had to choose between the two.

Cosmic WarperMar 23, 201711 votes

{quoted}

We haven't made a firm commitment to who we'll be looking at post tanks yet. Divers are certainly a very strong candidate though. If doing divers I think there are quite a few who'd benefit more from the work than Lee Sin (Aatrox and Wukong being top of my mind, Xin Zhao, Panth and others having good arguments for them too).

Please look at divers. They're some of the most stat-check oriented champions in league and need more variance.

Cold BeingMar 23, 20173 votes

{quoted}

We haven't made a firm commitment to who we'll be looking at post tanks yet. Divers are certainly a very strong candidate though. If doing divers I think there are quite a few who'd benefit more from the work than Lee Sin (Aatrox and Wukong being top of my mind, Xin Zhao, Panth and others having good arguments for them too).

If you don't answer my boy barbito with 9 upvotes about Udyr, I am gonna spam you with Udyr changes every time you make a "Quick Gameplay Thoughts". I will not stop. If I get banned, I will keep making new accounts and spamming you about Udyr. Don't know what is so hard with updating a old champion, it's really pitiful when Udyr has a higher fanbase and play rate then the other older champions that nobody plays and wants to play and you update them and still nobody plays them. Sheesh don't you want to sell that 3250 legendary skin more?

SonícMar 23, 20175 votes

While doing a pass of certain junglers, any consideration for Sejuani? Seems a tad on the weak side in general, impact in a game highly revolving around Ult with a kit which is basically a weaker version of Gragas's.

RiotMeddlerMar 23, 201710 votes

Sejuani, Maokai and Zac have updates coming in mid-season. We're not doing any non critical work on them now as a result.

NaiveChocoboMar 23, 20175 votes

Hey Meddler, Nami briefly appeared on surrender at 20's PBE notes, but with no info. Was this a typo on their end or are there plans for her? Thanks.

RiotMeddlerMar 23, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Hey Meddler, Nami briefly appeared on surrender at 20's PBE notes, but with no info. Was this a typo on their end or are there plans for her? Thanks.

We don't have any Nami stuff in progress that I'm aware of.

DCYOUNG888Mar 23, 20174 votes

Last week you said you're testing mr/level on champions that currently have no mr growth. Will you be giving Kassadin and Yasuo mr/level that other melee champions have since they are the only melee champions that lack this growth?

RiotMeddlerMar 23, 20179 votes

Yes, we'd be giving that 0.5/level MR to everyone without it, Kass and Yasuo therefore included.

HethaleanMar 23, 20174 votes

You mentioned that this was in response to the lack of MR from item 3105 's Aura.

If I recall, Riot removed the aura because Riot didn't like how hard to balance it was and how mandatory the item was. It feels like item 3190 is still fairly required in the Support Role. How do you feel about the changes? Is the shielding easier to balance than the MR aura?

DCYOUNG888Mar 23, 20172 votes

However, they won't gain 1.25/level MR even though they are melee champions right?

RiotMeddlerMar 23, 20175 votes

{quoted}

However, they won't gain 1.25/level MR even though they are melee champions right?

At least for now we're testing the 0.5/level.

AdalvarMar 23, 20173 votes

Will Yasuo and Kass get full MR benefit (i.e 1,25 per level) or just the 0.5? While i detest Yasuo and Kassa may be a bit tricky, as melee's they should have the same baseline as the others and have ranged characters gains 0.5 instead.

MagnumDongChaponMar 23, 20174 votes

What's about Aatrox ?? still need help right now ?

RiotMeddlerMar 23, 20177 votes

Need to assess 7.6 to figure that out. Top lane performance looks at least close ish to appropriate, jungle more likely to need help.

Krys StarMar 23, 20174 votes

Meddler, will there ever be a chance that Talisman of Ascension builds out of Nomad's Medallion + Forbidden Idol again over Nomad's Medallion + Raptor's Cloak? Maybe I'm in the minority, or perhaps even the only person, but I used to love grabbing Talisman of Ascension as soon as I possibly could, even on champions it was less than favorable on (Sona, Nami, Lulu, etc). As soon as built out of Raptor's Cloak, however, I've neglected the item altogether.

Maybe I'm wasting my time, but I'd love nothing more than for the item to build out of Forbidden Idol again. I appreciate the bonus to healing/shielding so much, and I feel Talisman of Ascension is the support's gold income designed for the specific champions that actually shield and heal frequently to begin with. Raptor's Cloak just feels so out of place on Talisman of Ascension, whereas the bonus healing/shielding would be appreciated so, so much as well as the utility attached to it.

fartyolo69Mar 23, 20174 votes

Will the auto attack reset bug be addressed as a hotfix, or will we have to wait until the next patch? Thanks

Veiled NightmareMar 24, 20172 votes

I'm told it was hotfixed already thank goodness.

LexZanMar 23, 20174 votes

Hey Meddler, can you tell me if you still going to but those doran's shield changes which where long ago? Just want to know.

RiotMeddlerMar 23, 20179 votes

{quoted}

Hey Meddler, can you tell me if you still going to but those doran's shield changes which where long ago? Just want to know.

It's fairly likely we do a version of those Doran's Shield changes in mid-season.

patmax17Mar 23, 20174 votes

Why do I see this thread in chronological view? O__ò I want rioter rundown back! T_T

RiotMeddlerMar 24, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Why do I see this thread in chronological view? O__ò I want rioter rundown back! T_T

We've been looking at a few possible boards changes. We'll be swapping back to the previous ordering for Dev Corner shortly, though will likely try some further tests to ordering, vote systems etc on this subboard at least soonish.

CarnicoreMar 24, 20172 votes

Is there an option to just set it to the reddit structure and keep it that way? Chronological view is just terrible.

SpideraxeMar 23, 20173 votes

Hey Meddler do you know you guys are gonna release the list for small reworks since there are less this time around

RiotMeddlerMar 23, 201711 votes

We won't be doing small tank reworks for mid-season (weren't happy enough with our track record on mini-updates during class updates previously). We did hit on some Amumu stuff we thought was promising, we'll be trying to get that out in 7.7. instead though since it's stuff that's pretty standalone.

P3PIMar 23, 20173 votes

What about the TP improvements on PBE? Didn't say anything in patch notes

iGoogledYourMOMMar 23, 20173 votes

@Meddler Could you please Add the Feature "Champion Highlight on Camera Center" to the "Camera Toggle Lock" as well? When HOLDING Spacebar "Champion Highlight on Camera Center" a Bright Icon appears on the Champion, that is If you enable it.

Currently this Highlight feature on works on Center Camera on Champion(HOLDING) & The Highlight Icon doesn't Appear for those using Camera Toggle Lock (Toggle the Camera Lock w/ a single Key).

Would really appreciated if you could add the Highlight to Camera Toggle Lock.

How is doing? Do you feel he needs further Buffs?
WHEN is the Nerf coming? He is oppressive to all MOST Melee Top Laner.

Sir NopeMar 24, 20173 votes

Where do you sit on Leona right now? I've been noticing that other champions are doing Leona's job better than Leona does Leona's job, but that might just beme.

WrongNeekoMar 23, 20172 votes

Urgot Rework Patch 7.11 or 7.12?

MaIignMar 23, 20172 votes

Are you still looking into Leblanc as people in competitive have already maxed W first on 7.5 & regardless we still have to Lvl up that ability second.

The champion doesn't function with a extremely high cdr w. Are you all going to look at her kit again since the rework?

WofyeMar 23, 20172 votes

Are there any thoughts on what you said about making supports power scaling less dependent on gold income.

Example like Bard and his chimes.

Rengar Top LaneMar 23, 20172 votes

Nothing about Rengar...? I mean former main and all, but you guys honestly pushed so many of us Rengar mains away because we did not want to play a bruiser nor a highly abusive champion. Our enjoyment was taken away and replaced with something designers thought was cool. Plus replacing his bonetooth necklace with ad steriods was just a slap in the face.

You know we dislike the new Q because it's aoe and doesn't give the stabby knife cat vibe anymore. We dislike the absurb amount of healing he does with new W, and we can tolerate the fact we are visible in ultimate now. Ferocity decay hasn't even done anything spectacular either, so I have no clue why it was added besides preventing bolas from ultimate. WHICH could have been fixed by making the bola duration shorter the closer you are to target.

Speak to us Meddler. Been in the dark too long. /r/rengarmains

SaltNPettyMar 23, 20172 votes

Could we get follow up on the Lissandra changes?

HuudiMar 23, 20172 votes

Graves is my highest mastery champion and I believe the latter approach is better. Graves was intended to be a marksman who can handle people who dive in his face. That is almost as likely to be a magic damage threat like Zac or Naut or Fizz as it could be Camille Sion Hecarim. It also conceptually weirds me out and seems forced.

NergaliMar 24, 20172 votes

i dont get it why wasting time on lux which is really playable while there is dead champs like udyr!!!

Lord DesertMar 24, 20172 votes

May I ask why the magicshield color was changed for colorblind mode? Im not colorblind by anymeans, but I find it easier to spot/keep track of myself in messy teamfights with colorblind turned on. This new light purple/pinkish color is very hard to see for me compared to the old purple. Why was it changed?

Sire HippingtonMar 25, 20172 votes

Lux still does pretty well in low Elo's, we see her struggle a fair bit in higher

If you want to buff her in high elo without to much impac on low elo, then the soft reset on the ult is the exact wrong way to go about it. In Low Elo, squishys get cought alot more often in her burst combo and die to it. In higher Elos, the ult more often also is used to get opponents low so they won't contest an objective, ot for raw aoe in a teamfight rather than just a killing snipe. If you want to give lux more skill-expression, her E would be the first place to look at. Currently, there is very little use iin it's slow-zone mechanic, as instantly popping it is the right call ~90% of the time. Putting a bit more power in the zoneing potential of her E rather than just the poke/burst woud be a great way of increasing her skill-expression, as you finally would have to decide when to pop it rather than instantly explodeing it every damn single time. Or put some more power into her passive, like adding a few sec vision on the target when it gets popped, vision would be very fitting for a light mage and usually is more valuable in higher elos than in low elo.