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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 15

RiotMeddler··1 votes·51,377 views

Hi folks,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Pre-Season PBE Timing

We'll be putting a lot of stuff onto the PBE with more time before pre-season than we've done in the past. A lot of content, including all of the new Runes, should be there from sometime late September/early October until pre-season launch in, all going according to plan, early November. Polish, balance and occasionally functionality changes will continue of course while stuff's on PBE, should be possible though to get a look at a lot of what we're planning fairly soon.


Runes longer term

Now that we're close to getting to show off the new Rune system as a whole figured it would also be good to talk a bit about how it'll change over time. We expect we'll make more changes to new Runes than we have to old Runes/Masteries in the past. That's due to a combination of changes now not screwing over peoples's runes purchases compared to the old system and more concentrated power letting us do more interesting things for the power budget in question. Initially that'll probably mean modifications/replacements for Runes as we get balance and game health sorted out. Longer term potentially additional runes added to some slots (more than 3 choices) or, much longer term, potentially adding a new tree.


Galio

We're taking a look at some possible Galio changes at the moment. Goal with those would be to focus a bit more on some of what makes him distinct from other tanks (anti magic damage focus, AP building), making him less of a generalistic and potentially a bit stronger overall, at least when picked against appropriate enemy teams. Can't guarantee that'll go anywhere yet, and probably won't be in a patch for a while even if it does, something we're looking at though.


Orianna

We're also working on some Ori changes again, a follow up to the stuff we were looking at a couple of patches back. That's where W/R no longer fire slightly before the ball actually gets to the location they're firing at, but will now buffer properly instead, so if you press the key just before the ball arrives W or R will fire immediately on arrival. Might also pair those changes with other slight timing tweaks. Goal here's to offer a bit more counter but also ensure Ori's reliability doesn't nosedive like it did when we tried just removing the early W/R firing.


Azir context

Disclaimer: Fair bit of repetition here with post discussion on Azir, posting it though since changes are now on the PBE and some people haven't seen previous conversations.

The Azir small gameplay update's now on PBE. We've got a larger context post coming about our thinking on that in detail early next week, some shorter notes in the meantime though:

  • We expect we'll ship these changes in the next patch (7.19)
  • We're not looking to fundamentally change any of the core of Azir's play, so this is in some ways an extremely heavy tuning pass more than a mechanics update.
  • The biggest issue we want to solve with Azir is that, in his current state, he doesn't have meaningful weaknesses. We want to make range limitations a more significant weakness for Azir and picked range in significant part because making him weaker in other ways often doesn't matter if he's still far enough away and safe.
  • Range reduction's happening with lower Q cast range, W deactivation range.
  • We're also windowing his personal safety tools a bit more (shorter E duration, R not knocking back after the initial cast).
  • In exchange we're aiming for him to have decent sustained damage, scaling and playmaking.
  • Biggest source of added power is an attack speed steroid whenever he's got 3 or more Sand Soldiers down.
  • Initial balance may or may not be correct as with any update, direction is that biggest thing we're focused on though (what strength/weaknesses and what mechanics to change or not leave as is). I'd imagine it's more likely than not we'll have at least some polish to follow up in 7.20, balance tweaks pretty possible too once we've seen where he lands.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

271 Comments

La Bello10 votes

Quick question

do you view item 3100 as a Burst item (Assassins) or a Sustained damage item? (control/battle mage )

RiotMeddler4 votes

Depends a lot on the kit it's on IMO, whether it's a kit with burst looking to get a bit more from working on AA in or a kit with low CD spells that's well suited to AA weaving.

La Bello3 votes

no but I mean what direction would you take the item in if you ever had to update it?

would you try to tweak it for assassins or sustained damage?

Linna Excel8 votes

Silly rune-related question: are total biscuits going away with the new system? I can't remember any of the runes talking about them.

RiotMeddler24 votes

Total Biscuits will still be in there, though in a somewhat different form.

Sad Chihuahua8 votes

We get to buy Poro Snacks and use them on ourselves?

You heard it here first, boys!

Jar Jar binks l8 votes

Will there be lethality Runes on the new Runes System? My whole playstyle builds around them

Malicious Metal7 votes
RiotMeddler5 votes

{quoted}

Will there be lethality Runes on the new Runes System? My whole playstyle builds around them

There's a source of Lethality/flat MPEN in the system at present. Might change another Rune to also offer some, not sure yet.

Landorin6 votes

Hi Meddler,

In the tester Q&A this patch, one of the play testers mentioned that he thought some of the assassin reworks made them significantly less fun to play (he was talking about Fizz specifically, but was being somewhat general), and that he hoped they could be revisited. Is there any hope of a pass at injecting better skill expression and flexibility into some of those assassins that got reworked as part of the update? It sucks when your favorite champion had a bunch of problems introduced to their kit by a rework, but isn't on anybody's radar because they have a 50% win rate and aren't played in competitive.

Penns3 votes

We are forgotten [sg-soraka]

And Fizz only got a "small" update so no one cares about it feelsbadman

Fisher No Chains1 votes

Well, LB got a bigger update and what she got is... waveclear and a delay.

Trust me, and be happy that he wasn't one of the big reworks. He could end up being a melee waveclear mage.

Penns3 votes

Well at least LB was, and still is, very strong after her rework.

I understand the problems assassin players have with her rework of course, but the only way Fizz has been really viable after his rework was when people played him as tank/fighter top (which the W change was supposed to fix..), before his W base damage got gutted hard.

And Im pretty sure Fizz was planned to be the 5th big update, but then it got scrapped (but not really). His rework was nowhere near the scale of the Ekko or Zed "updates".

So basically (I could be wrong here but thats how it seems to me), it was even more "half-assed" because they still used ideas from his big update but didnt put as much time into it.

Sincarnation6 votes

The absolute radio silence on eve is irritating and worrisome for something that was supposed to be so close, did you guys mess up and have to delay again?

RiotMeddler26 votes

We previously mentioned Eve's close and coming out before pre-season.

We don't share all the details about VGUs ahead of schedule, instead going for some elements that are more like a new champion release (teasers, some degree of surprise).

You can probably do the math from there unless you mess up.

nosafterburn5 votes

Well it's not like we could see Eve coming if we tried. No one put out a item 2055 .

Rengooo19 votes

You can probably do the math from there unless you mess up.

Oh that sas

Dope Solo2 votes

Not sure how you can be looking forward to this. She plays pretty balanced already. Some visual changes sound fun, but why fix something that isn't broken when there are other, definitely bigger problems with the game: Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Zed Fizz.

Sincarnation2 votes

{quoted}

Not sure how you can be looking forward to this. She plays pretty balanced already. Some visual changes sound fun, but why fix something that isn't broken when there are other, definitely bigger problems with the game: Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Zed Fizz.

No she does't. She is a feast or famine amalgamation without set direction. She has been played, AD Bruiser, AD Assassin, AP Assassin, Full Tank. She isn't balanced, she is playable but she could be better.

Yasuo, Zed, and Fizz are your bigger problems? Absolutely nothing wrong with either of those three, the solution is git gud. Lissandra and Kayle do wonders for shitting on all three, they have plenty of counterplay

Dope Solo3 votes

Picking Liss or Kayle so you don't get shit on isn't counterplay.

Sincarnation2 votes

{quoted}

Picking Liss or Kayle so you don't get shit on isn't counterplay.

No, but if you don't know how to counterplay them in lane mechanically I presented champions that you can pick that do it by nature of their kits. If you still can't handle the matchups, not much else I can tell you. Well I could give a detailed analysis but effort vs reward and such.

Dope Solo2 votes

Its not an issue of "knowing how to counterplay" in the champ vs. champ matchup, its an issue of no champ v champ counterplay being intrinsically available. Staying behind the turret because you get punished for attempting to farm at an equal rate isn't counterplay either.

Floupi6 votes

[deleted]

Silverjust3 votes

stoneborn pact has an onhit heal and an heal over time part. I think they should just do that, because it rewards for attacking again, but also helps everyone who made a single auto attack

WizZarD5 votes

Hey Meddler, When will Pre-Season start this year? Also, do you have any balance changes in mind? Which champions are more likely to receive a change?

RiotMeddler3 votes

Pre-season should be early ish November (somewhere in the first couple of weeks).

We'll have base stat changes for every champ in game, with things like a bit of AD for auto attackers, potentially some armor for everyone etc. In terms of kit changes most of those will be reactive based on how Runes etc impact things, rather than us trying to predict where stuff will fall ahead of time.

We'll also likely have some changes to some game systems like how gold and XP work, still figuring out exact details there though, so not quite ready to talk about them and they may not be on PBE day one.

Glory to God4 votes

Probably unrelated but do you know if we'll have another Artilery Mage in the future as it is the smallest subclass in the game? Or do you plan to merge it with Battle and Burst Mage subclasses?

RiotMeddler5 votes

We'll keep making artillery champs occasionally. It's likely to always be the smallest, or at least one of the smallest sub classes though. That's not a problem in our eyes - not all subclasses have the same amount of design space in them, some things are just more niche already.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

Why is it so niche though?

DeadUnborn6 votes

Because as a champion that attacks from far away there is just so much you are "allowed" to do before you become broken

Artillery already has:

  • Lux
  • Xerath
  • Ziggs

Hybrid/alt builds:

  • Kog Maw
  • Varus
  • Nidalee
  • Jayce

If you look at the roster you already have support artillery (lux Q, W and nid E), AD artillery (Jayce, Varus), long range, burst, siege and all different play patterns. It is niche because an artillery play pattern is very limited in its design choices

Ganked By Tilt3 votes

Do you guys have any plans for divers? Diana, Wu, Vi etc need help right now

KestrelGirl5 votes

Wait for the new runes. I think they will all strongly benefit from Ultimore, and perhaps other runes.

CyberBalt3 votes

Is the Steraks buff/change you mentioned in another post coming in this patch, or later down the road?

RiotMeddler5 votes

Still being worked on, think it's likely we'll ship something. If I had to guess probably 50/50 this patch or 7.20.

SKT Blacks3 votes

Hey Meddler, u said u were looking for a Ryze change...specific to his ultimate for 7.19. Im wondering where the update is since i cant find anything on PBE :O I think changing his ult from a global tool to a DMG/Steroid Ult is the right way for making him balanced especially for the difference of pro play and SoloQ. Thanks for your answer :)

RiotMeddler7 votes

Ryze changes are really unlikely in 7.19. 7.20 is pretty possible, definitely want them out before 7.22.

Jackom13 votes

Are you going to change the jungle again this year, by introducing new elements like last year's plants? Or you fine with the amount of interactive elements in the jungle, at least as far as the pre-season is concerned?

RiotMeddler6 votes

We're no planning on making any major structural changes to the jungle. We'll likely tune camp health and damage for example, but won't be adding or removing notable elements.

TheSingularity2 votes

In terms of camp health/damage:

Red buff chunks too hard compared to blue, making blue the optimal choice in almost every scenario regardless of the additional dmg red takes from AD. I feel the weakness given to blue/red rarely influences the starting decision and instead remains as "am I manaless and not CD reliant? Yes then start red".

Barron needs the damage sent through the roof. It's a pitiful excuse for an objective due to the abundance of heals/shields/life steal and the obscene damage of the current meta.

Every other camp is fine health/dmg wise.

I would really like a further decrease in the time it takes for krugs to split apart. TBH I'd actually rather you revert what you did to them. I never touch this camp, it's boring/annoying to do, feels like it takes forever and for what? Something less satisfying than killing any other camp?

Inversion1 votes

Making baron harder to take, without other changes just extends the game.

TheSingularity2 votes

In the current meta, barron is just a cherry on top.

It isn't at all necessary, but it's nice to have

Hellioning2 votes

So why does a MR based champ have a taunt in their kit?

Glory ln Death22 votes

Because taunts naturally counter mages.

DCYOUNG8882 votes

Well he also does have damage reduction in his w also.

Glory ln Death2 votes

Which is one of the things Meddler mentioned looking at in order to make him less of a generalist.

DCYOUNG8881 votes

Good point. Out of curiosity, why is it bad to have a generalist champion (e.g. pre-rework Maokai)? I remember one of the reasons is that they tend to be either hit or miss in game depending on how well they perform. What other champions are examples of generalists?

Glory ln Death8 votes

Generalists are considered bad because, while they don't have any outstanding strrengths, they don't have any real weaknesses, either. They can do anything decently, can fit into any teamcomp, and can work with any strategy. They aren't the best at anything, but they aren't bad at anything, either.

That means the enemy can't really counterpick them or counterbuild them or even really shut them down. You pick a champion/team comp/build to shut down their teamfight power? Well, they can splitpushing or make picks just as well, so it doesn't matter.

In Galio'a case, it's especially an issue of not being able to counterpick him. He is supposed to be the anti-magic damage tank, but his kit makes him just as effective against AD champions.

As for other generalists, Jarvan was considered one last season (not sure about currently), and Orianna is fairly generalist, right now. Honestly, if they show up a lot in pro play and don't have a pretty obvious niche or weakness, they are probably fairly generalist.

Kaillooh2 votes

Moreover, if you have let's say 3 very generalists champs in the same strategical niche (big bad dude who can take a lot of damage and CC people for example), people will just pick the one who's op at the moment, and not the one who's interesting with/against a comp.

That results in a guy being 100% pick/ban in a patch, and completely forgotten in the next, which sucks x)

Kowe The Ewok2 votes

"Azir has no meaningful weaknesses in his current state" - how about flashing / dashing past his soldiers once he uses Q leaving him with literally no way to fight you other than basic auto attacks?

It's frustrating to see how you continuously destroy DPS mages , you simply ignore key requirements (like Cassiopeia having to land Q or being restricted by mana) and nerf them to a point where Lucien or Corki just replace them in mid.

Like nerfing all AP items, giving everyone free MR, adding Adaptive Helmet wasn't destructive enough to DPS mages. We have ADC not only being played in the botlane, but also in the midlane (Lucie, Corki) and in the jungle (Twitch, Ezreal) and somehow you decide to nerf DPS mages out of the meta instead, every time they are remotely close to being viable.

**Opposed to ADC DPS-Mages actually have counterplay. Yet a Cassiopeia Cassiopeia can be place #98 in terms of winrate (Diamond rank OP.GG stats, dropped further to #100 today 15th september) and be nerfed while a #10 winrate Twitch Twitch remains untouched. **

Adalvar6 votes

First off, while i can concede that AP mages took some heavy hits (or in this case AP itemization took a hit) and that because of this certain ADC's took over, that has nothing to do with this diatribe of yours.

how about flashing / dashing past his soldiers once he uses k leaving him with literally no way to fight you other than basic auto attacks?

Sure try and do that to an Azir with anyone that's not Kassadin or maybe Leblanc and he'll throw you back with his ult, block you off, buy enough time to relocate his soldiers and kill you anyway. Azir in his current state has too much crap going on. Immense range, tons of DPS, mobility, multiple forms of engage and disengage. They opted to cut on his safety and defense and leaving his playmaking and DPS intact, or even higher in that last regard. As for Cassio, she always bounces back...her lategame DPS is too big to pass up.

Like nerfing all AP items, giving everyone free MR, adding Adaptive Helmet wasn't destructive enough to DPS mages.

I can agree with the first statement and that's about it. I feel like AP items and especially scaling ones took way too big hits. They should restore power to individual items and cut back on the cost and passive of item 3089 so that mages can have better 1-2 item spikes and retain the same lategame they have today, unless they wanna go into scaling options such as (item 3027 item 3003.

As for the rest. Champions have had scaling armor for years, plus the inbuilt MR most of them have is next to nothing, so what?

And item 3194? LoL...these item 3143 item 3047 item 3110 item 3075 would like a word with you from the physical department.

Opposed to ADC DPS mages have counterplay

ADC's have always had counterplay...they still do. The issues they have now pertain to two or three specific characters who are in a off-shoot position due to several of their natural predators being nerfed and them gaining a few enabling items. Guess what? Two of those core items item 3109 item 3504 are getting nerfed and in a pretty big way.

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