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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 28

RiotMeddler··1 votes·162,811 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Preseason follow up: Part 1

Going to be mainly talking this week about how preseason's gone so far and what our thoughts on follow up are. Today's going to cover a bit about our approach, plus context on how why we're targeting various specific changes in 8.24. Friday's post will then focus on larger issues rather than specific champ/rune balance. Quick timeline:

  • Last Week - Preseason gets released in 8.23.
  • This week - We've now had time to get a solid initial picture of where preseason's landed so we're working on getting some balance changes into 8.24. Patch has to be locked down today, so the focus is on hitting a range of quicker to fix issues like individual champion balance that don't require longer development and testing. Those changes will go out next week in 8.24
  • Later this week and next week - We'll be working on a patch 8.24b which will get released sometime mid December. It's a 'b' patch because it won't contain new content like skins or game features, instead being a purely balance focused patch. Changes will generally be adjustments to numbers, rather than new or heavily modified functionality on abilities, items, towers etc. Expectation is we'll probably work on addressing some larger issues in this patch, though some things could instead be in a patch early next year if they need more than a couple of weeks of development.
  • Early next year - Goal is to get larger changes into the first couple of changes, then once Ranked season starts, have a more stable period.

Balance Changes in 8.24

Runes

  • Dark Harvest Nerf - Dark Harvest's still looking too universally effective and on too many champs too powerful. We'll be cutting its base damage (20-60 instead of 40-80) and making it so it can't trigger off proc damage to make it less in-discriminant. Hitting base in particular to reduce its lane bullying potential, would like picking a scaling rune like this to come with more early game trade off. Once those changes have hit we'll then see if we should also be considering changes post 8.24 to the reset (should it be longer, or potentially removed?) and health threshold for the trigger (would 40% instead of 50% be more appropriate?). Don't want to hit too much at once though and overcorrect, hence a couple of changes next week with further follow up if needed.

  • Raptors - Pushing back the Raptor camp spawn time slightly (1:30 instead of 1:27) so that a few champs (Karthus and Aatrox especially) can't clear it then still get all of the first minion wave as easily.

Champions:

  • Viktor Nerf - Looking to bring down top lane Viktor in particular, hopefully hitting it meaningfully without pushing him out of top completely. Likely involves hitting Q base and/or CD, then buffing Q and/or E ratios.
  • Irelia Nerf - Taking some power out through simple numbers changes right now, then likely following up with some larger work in a later patch. Probably removing power from her W primarily.
  • Aatrox Nerf - Removing Q's bonus damage to monsters to chip mid Aatrox with Smite down a bit (also cleans up an unnecessary mechanic on the Q as a bonus).
  • Akali Nerf - Taking some general power out now, then looking at larger mechanics changes later. Not sure on direction of either at time of writing.
  • Jax Nerf - Looking too strong, especially in the jungle. Just taking a bit of power out somewhere.
  • Camille Nerf - Looking to trim her jungle power in particular, laning to a lesser degree. Might involve lower base AS since that disproportionately affects jungling.
  • LeBlanc Nerf - Cutting some power. Direction to be determined still, probably something pretty straightforward.
  • Illaoi Buff - Potentially giving her lower CDs on an ability to two. Confident we should be buffing her a bit, still discussing exactly how though.

Stuff discussed that's not in 8.24

Champs

  • Pyke Nerf - We think Pyke's too strong when he gets a gold/XP lead going. Going to be looking at his scaling and/or rank ups as a result. Play rate's currently fairly low, but solo lane Pyke's looking real strong, so likely that's a large part of the focus of this work. Likely changes in 8.24b.
  • Karthus - Has benefited a lot from easier access to Presence of Mind and Last Stand (no forced attack speed), both of which are much more effective on him than on most champions. Still assessing him, including bot lane play, where's he's also looking strong, but still a pretty rare pick.
  • Taliyah - Starting to see her performance jungle recover after the changes. Continuing to watch for now.

Runes and Items

  • Guinsoo's - No changes currently planned. Changes don't seem to have impacted its users much so far, with the exception of Kai'Sa who seems somewhat less bound to it. More a sidegrade for the others however. Nothing looking out of line, not a clear success at least initially either though.
  • Celerity - Is a strong choice on a limited number of champs, much weaker choice on many. Not sure yet if it's now too niche, versus its previous too broad status. Possible it's a bit weak/narrow over all, want to take a bit longer to see how it goes though, especially since we're still seeing a lot of players haven't adjusted their rune pages to add or remove it where appropriate yet.
  • Presence of Mind and Absolute Focus - Are both looking pretty strong, but sufficiently we think they need to be acted on at present though.

Likely topics for Friday's post

Going to focusing Friday on systemic topics we'll be looking into after the 8.24 work above. Likely includes some updated thoughts on ongoing assessment of tower stats/rewards, potential resurgence of gold/xp funneling and/or laneswaps, recent player discussion about power and feel of marksmen.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

483 Comments

YL 66625 votes

Will we see some Wukong's passive change? Or any Wukong change in general by the end of 2019(so till next year) at least?

saltran9 votes

Not a Wu player (in fact I hate him as he is now) but I hope he gets a rework next year.

Record Scratch11 votes

League has not been the same for me since wukong got nerfed for things that were just good in the moment. I think Wukong not only needs a passive rework, but at least make wukongs q level 1 not be 40 mana for an auto reset. (10 damage is not enough to be worth 40 mana)

Eleshakai24 votes

Hey Meddler, high level question here: What do you guys feel an enchanter SHOULD be in League?

Right now, it really feels like enchanters are just nerfed into irrelevance, and if any ever get even remotely useful they need to be nerfed again(see Nami).

It's sad, because I love enchanters... but in the current gamestate, they just feel so hard to actually DO anything with(aside from Nami, again)

Emo Twink9 votes

Im with you there. Nami was holding up against thresh and alistar and had her defensive side nerfed of all things.. its always defenses being targeted lately.

TCrookz21 votes

Still not looking at adc or adc itemisation changes?

RiotMeddler18 votes

Likely topics for Friday's post

Going to focusing Friday on systemic topics we'll be looking into after the 8.24 work above. Likely includes some updated thoughts on ongoing assessment of tower stats/rewards, potential resurgence of gold/xp funneling and/or laneswaps, recent player discussion about power and feel of marksmen.

Will touch on some marksman stuff on Friday.

Akali is SO HOT18 votes

I was wondering if your team had considered removing Akali's stealth from towers so that she would be able to get compensation buffs somewhere instead of constantly being nerfed.

A lot of Akali players seem to at least be interested in discussing something like that. Would be cool if you guys had any thoughts on her shroud.

Edit: She would still retain her obscurity from champions while under turret, but turrets would be able to target and damage her while obscured for example.

RiotMeddler16 votes

That's an ongoing discussion internally right now covering whether this is the sort of unique strength we should be preserving despite its costs or something we should remove because of its downsides, thereby as you say freeing us up to put some power elsewhere. Will update once we've got a conclusion.

Ragnaveil6 votes

Is this something you could possibly explore with Yasuo as well (considering he's the bane of low elo regardless if he's strong or not)? Sorry to be piggybacking on something about Akali, but both champs share the same situation.

RiotMeddler11 votes

We've had that discussion regarding Yasuo and believe his unique strengths (I'm guessing you're thinking Windwall and/or the E CD?) are worth preserving.

Ragnaveil2 votes

I feel like Low Elo just has a very rough time dealing with his windwall, and many have voiced its just too strong. I've seen several say it should have a durability like system where if enough projectiles or spells it the wall it breaks. I feel like that would be a healthier version than the one we have now that just eats everything (this is coming from someone who played a huge amount of Yas for a period of time because I loved playing him). The durability could be similar to Yorick wall, so for example the windwall could have 5 hp. Projectile spells could do 1 hp damage to the wall, while two autos could do 1 hp as well. Something like that. (As for his E, it should kinda stay the same, its the only mobility tool he has in his kit)

That and also for some reason Yas' ult places him outside of turret range from what i've been hearing from several people. I haven't noticed it personally, but apparently its been a constantly happening thing. Hope you don't mind looking at my tank post on here as well, I feel like its something that needs to be discussed.

aezens6 votes

I think for both Akali and Yasuo it´s a matter of duration rather then strength. I don´t think it´s unfair if he times it perfectly and is able to counter even multiple projectiles/abilities. However the fact he can use it as a save zone for several seconds after the cast as well is not ok. There is no reason for the hidden passive on his ultimat to exist though.

Similar thing with Akali. I don´t think absolute invisibility in a limited area is necessarily a bad thing but up to 8-10 sec without real counterplay is far to long for a fast game like lol.

SnugglePuggle9418 votes

#RevertRunesReforged!

We never asked for runes to be changed. Or our masteries taken away. We asked for runes to be FREE.

This system needs to GO.

Adalvar7 votes

Yeah that's not gonna happen.

SnugglePuggle9410 votes

It can, if enough people speak up and continue to ask for it to be done.

Adalvar4 votes

No it can't...the system is too big, it literally just got another major component introduced with Rune Shards, and there isn't enough people "speaking up" to justify a reversal of that magnitude.

SnugglePuggle9411 votes

Yes, it can. I've already seen people speaking up. Just have to keep going.

Rune shards have barely added anything to the game so it's not that big.

They reverted Dynamic Que. Runes Reforged can be done the same as well.

#RevertRunesReforged

Verrierr1 votes

I for one, heavily favor the new runes over the old system (even if runes were free as you're suggesting, I don't think that would change my mind). This might seems improbable to you since I'm betting most people you associate with agree with your opinion on the subject, however I'd wager most players at this point in time would agree with my stance rather than yours.

SnugglePuggle947 votes

The newer players mostly, but I expect the majority of the older players don't.

I seriously can't fathom why you would want the newer ones anyway. They are horrible, mostly overpowered or don't do anything at all, and can't customize as much either.

#RevertRunesReforged

Lrrr Omicronian13 votes

{quoted}

#RevertRunesReforged!

We never asked for runes to be changed. Or our masteries taken away. We asked for runes to be FREE.

This system needs to GO.

Runes Reforged was a mistake.

SnugglePuggle9413 votes

Agreed. The whole game wouldn't be such a snowball shitfest if it wasn't introduced.

Egg McMuffin14 votes

Any changes to crit items in season 9?

Queš12 votes

What about nerfing Jax s base AD to something like 65 from 70,but increasing AD per level(so it evens out at lvl 18,sinсe he is so reliant on triforce),this way he will be much more reasonable early game and during first clears in jungle for late game scaling carry.

Or maybe nerf his base E damage since he relies on it too much in lane and jungle both,something like 50 base dmg lvl 1 -> 20 base dmg level 1 (20-140 from 50-150)

Tritt2G13 votes

wtf stop having good ideas.

K0ly010 votes

I think Garen should get a buff or at least nerf darius because his passive damage is too much. Buff Garen's ult.

ModKnightsKemplar9 votes

Awesome update, thanks! Very glad to hear Dark Harvest is getting immediate attention. As a player, I would feel much better if the hp threshold for the proc was lower.

Question about something that you left out; I'm wondering where the team landed with Spear of Shojin? Last I heard, you were going to try to get it in with preseason, but looks like you weren't happy with the iterations that you had. Can you expound on that a bit? What was the problem with the concept and do you think it will make a comeback at a later date?

RiotMeddler9 votes

Threshold change is still a possibility for the future, as above didn't want to change too many things at once with DH though. One thing we've also done since the above was written was reduce the stack rate by half on ARAM, given it's been additionally out of line there. That went out in a hotfix last night.

We haven't found a version of Spear of Shojin we think's both healthy and sufficiently distinct from other items yet. Planning on taking another look at it once preseason follow up work's done (so probably early next year). Don't want to make any promises though, given difficulty we've had getting it into a good spot.

DCYOUNG8889 votes

Are the Sejuani, Ornn, and Galio changes going to return for testing on the pbe (with a different set of changes hopefully for Sej and Galio) and if so will they be released on patch 8.24b or later?

RiotMeddler9 votes

I'll double check with the folks working on them, I think expectation is Sejuani and Ornn early next year, Galio potentially 8.24 still. Given challenges we've had with these three we're focusing on being more thorough with testing and changes rather than faster.

RiotMeddler8 votes

Yep, Galio in 8.24, others probably in 9.1

Daddy Ants9 votes

Revert Crit (Mainly IE and Essence Reaver. I miss playing Xayah and Ashe with ER)

Remove Stormrazor, the item is toxic as fuck.

Wolfearent8 votes

Do you have any plans to help out Xayah ? She has been in a rough spot since mid season and it just hurts to watch her win rate get lower and lower. :((

Lárxene8 votes

Almost every marksman is suffering from the midseason changes. The entirety of the role should be reassessed to be honest.

rapid 1118 votes

Are you guys not going to comment on the state of botlane AT ALL? Do you think it's healthy for only Lucian & Draven to be viable as ADCs bot?

VeXuM7 votes

Any thoughts on essence reaver? Would be nice to have a crit version again

SilverMaster7 votes

What about the fighter items? Like Spear of Shojin or Atmas. Will they ever hit the rift?

DarkSpiritslayer5 votes

you can bet our sweet ass those items will never be released sadly ...

C9 Negev7 votes

Could we go more in depth on the Jax nerf?

Seraphim1177 votes

Gangplank buffs? No? Alright.... cries even tho he doesn’t really need that bad and I’m just greedy and insulted by klepto change

DCYOUNG8886 votes

Thoughts on Shyvana Shyvana with the current jungle?

SlashStriker6 votes

Meddler, You guys said you are trying to make a comeback to the losing team yet the new turret plating system snowballs the winning team even harder. It just doesn't seem right that you are already quite behind and you get further behind by not being able to destroy a single turret plate while enemies get massive gold advantage by doing so

To make comebacks more achievable for the losing team I would like to suggest when destroying a turret plate it grands:

  • 50 gold if you are on the winning team
  • 150 if you are on the losing team
  • turret plates should stay until destroyed
Buff Riven Plz5 votes

Hey is here any chance we could get the Cleaver build path changed back toitem 3133 and item 3044 thoughts on this?

RiotMeddler22 votes

It's unlikely we'd want to change Black Cleaver back to Hammer/Phage. Getting some more health onto it, and less AD, has helped balance it better for a range of different users, gives it a clearer distinction from other early damage heavy options and gets a bit of extra health into the system in what seems to be a reasonable way (not trying to reduce defenses right now). Can understand that that does mean some champs who'd really like the old build path find it much less appealing, feel that's a trade off we should make though.

supercoolisaac5 votes

Hey Meddler, wondering if we can get the teams/your thoughts on Hail Of Blades? I can't think of a single champ that performs the best with it as their keystone, even the fringe cases seem kind of troll. Wondering if there's some data that says otherwise maybe. Feels like ever since its release it's been super lackluster. Anything in the works to fix it or maybe replace it with a different keystone?

RiotMeddler11 votes

Yeah, it's not really delivering. Expect we'll take a pass at it and either buff it or remove it in the moderate future. Not something we're looking at right now because it's not doing any harm and other issues are more urgent.

Sire Hippington6 votes

I think the fantasy of hail of Blaids is solid, the idea of delivering a quick flurry of hits sounds great. However, the current itteration has two major issues:

The first is it's interaction with AA-resets. Many of the champs that theoretically would benefit alot from it use AA-resets, which basically removes one from the 3 HoB hits. Jax for example usually jumps in with Q, then AA and reset with WW, which would mean 2 off the 3 HoB hits are used without gaining any real benefit from the improved AS.

The other issue is the conditions for rechargeing it. It's unreliably for lane and usually only offers one use in teamfights because beeing fully out of combat for 4sec is a big deal in todays fast paced league. One single minion missle following you in slowmotion can delay the whole thing quite alot and it just feels shitty that way.

Also, adding a bit MSto it might make it more atteactive and help to get full value from the proc.

lol you wild wyd3 votes

Hey :D

Are we going to actively see an effort to reduce the rate of change relative to the normal rate that we've seen throughout the span of League? I understand the possible caution after the change in patch cadence that was applied in mid-season but going back to the older iteration of patches will solve that problem right?

RiotMeddler6 votes

We do think we changed too much in the first half of 2018, so going to avoid doing such a large amount in such a timeframe. Second half of 2018 by contrast was quite light on change, preseason included, so will likely have a bit more than that, especially in future preseasons. No plans to change patch cadence from 2 weeks, though size of patch will vary at times certainly.

I'm assuming from your question you feel rate of change has been too high. Do you feel that way for the more recent months as well or is it more the year as a whole?

Lrrr Omicronian12 votes

{quoted}

We do think we changed too much in the first half of 2018, so going to avoid doing such a large amount in such a timeframe. Second half of 2018 by contrast was quite light on change, preseason included, so will likely have a bit more than that, especially in future preseasons. No plans to change patch cadence from 2 weeks, though size of patch will vary at times certainly.

I'm assuming from your question you feel rate of change has been too high. Do you feel that way for the more recent months as well or is it more the year as a whole?

The changes that have already been implemented are massive. Possibly bigger than all of the changes until now. The current patch included changes that dictate game length more "invasively" than anything that was seen in the past year.

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