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[INTRO] Andrei “Meddler” van Roon - Lead Gameplay Designer

RiotMeddler··1 votes·69,543 views

Hi all, I’m Andrei van Roon. I’ve been at Riot Games for about four years now, prior to that though I was working in a pretty different field, helping design future transport networks back in New Zealand. To my surprise I ended up at Riot (and in LA) after I happened to spot a job posting on the LoL forums and decided to throw in an application for the hell of it. So far it’s been a fantastic experience :).

Outside of work I’m a pretty big gamer, both video games and board games, with particular favourites including the Civilization series, Warcraft 3, FTL, Race for the Galaxy, Agricola, Star Control 2, Diablo 2 and Dark Souls. Also pretty partial to a bit of hiking, karaoke and travel.

WHAT AM I DOING AT RIOT? WHAT CAN YOU EXPECT NEXT YEAR?

I started at Riot as a designer on the Champion team, working on Ziggs, Varus, Syndra, some of Elise, Lissandra and some of Gnar. After that I did a spell as the Lead Designer on Champion, working with the designers and other developers on the team to help create new champions from 2013 to 2015. Over the course of 2015, I’ve been spending a lot of my time on wider gameplay topics as well, such as the recent preseason changes.

From the start of next year I’ll be shifting to a broader role, working with the four teams who focus on game health/balance, new champions, champion updates and game systems. My role these days tends to be more about helping teams build long term visions/plans, and offering a second opinion on work in progress, than on working directly on game changes myself.

WHAT AM I GOING TO TALK ABOUT?

For these DevCorner posts I’ll generally be talking about the state of gameplay in League of Legends overall, in terms of where we currently are, where we’re hoping to go and what the philosophies behind our changes are. I’ll also jump into some more specific conversations too where possible (‘What’s up with X mastery or champion’ etc), though that’ll generally be pretty reactive rather than planned.

WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO HEAR FROM ME?

I’d also love to get a better understanding of what you folks would like to talk about/hear more about. Types of topics in particular would be great (more about why we’re changing the game in the ways we are? more insight into our upcoming plans? more context on why we try and balance the way we do? etc). Riot’s direct communication with players was one of the things that made me want to apply here in the first place, so getting to contribute to keeping that going is something I’m really keen to do.

Edit: I'll be in and out of this thread over the course of the afternoon, got a mixture of meetings and some time put aside for forum posting.

177 Comments

Merxamers6 votes

What do you currently see as the biggest problems to the current state of the game? How do you hope to address some of these in the coming season?

I personally find many of the recent champs to be quite frustrating to play against, like Ekko (very difficult to catch or fight him when you want to, and his kit is loaded with too many ways to outplay the opponent); Tahm is hard to get away from and does incredible damage building only tank items; Kindred is a late-game snowball monster who is also very hard to fight early (unless you're Lee Sin).

Just my 2 cents :P

RiotMeddler6 votes

I think some games of LoL can sometimes feel a bit too predictable part way through, with team strats and optimal plays being clear to both teams. That results in risk adverse play, which can be less interesting to experience or watch. Currently planning to do some further analysis of options to deal with that early next year, see if we can find some approaches that are worth developing further (hidden information for one team, high risk potential comeback plays, greater team comp diversity etc).

Nymphß5 votes

Thoughts on Dominion and Twisted Treeline?

How come they aren't played at events like All-Stars? One would think that promoting game modes that are already available instead of ones that aren't (1v1) would be common sense.

Can you really say that there isn't a solo-q ranked option because the playerbase is too low? Because I think if there was - people would actually play them more often. Thoughts?

RiotMeddler3 votes

Not sure about how modes for events are picked sorry, that's something the Esports team handles directly.

I certainly agree there's a bit of a chicken and egg situation with Dominion and TT, in terms of lack of support versus lack of popularity. At the same time though we do believe that what's best for LoL as a competitive game is a single map/mode that serious play happens on (Summoners Rift), with other options being complimentary experiences (like ARAM) or temporary different experiences (like One for All, URF etc). In particular that's to support a single, focused, competitive scene, rather than splitting attention, players, balancing, etc between multiple different formats. What that means for Dominion and TT then's something I agree we should figure out, they feel stuck in a limbo at the moment.

Rebonack8 votes

{quoted} What that means for Dominion and TT then's something I agree we should figure out, they feel stuck in a limbo at the moment.

For Dominion at least, axing Blind and Draft queue and giving us a single Blind Draft queue would help a ton. That would allow us to at least ban out champions that are frustrating to deal with every other game. Teemo and Shaco are especially bad now that AP champs don't have an anti-trap item to build. This would be a pretty decent compromise, I think, since we're clearly never getting Ranked.

I've also noticed that account farming bots seem to be making a huge comeback. While it wouldn't solve the problem, making it so sub-30 players don't get matched with level 30 players would at least prevent bots from ruining the games of long-timers just trying to have some fun.

Solidair32 votes

GhostCrawler said we would be hearing news about domi and TT "soon" (which i assume is next year) so I assume the alt map guys are already working on this.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/mNEPVVga-intro-greg-riot-ghostcrawler-street-game-design-director?comment=000f

I'm hoping the news is less "we're deleting these modes" and more "okay, they may not be our priority but we should probably take responsibility for this thing we made and support it at least a little"

IxtaliKing5 votes
  1. The reds have been VERY silent on Karma for a while, despite all the various discussions about her that have taken place in the last few months. Is there a chance she might be looked at when the mages are updated? She's a great champ (my favourite), but since the removal of her Shield bomb she feels a little hollow.

  2. Are there any plans for Azir?

  3. What is your current position on champs with a lot of skills? Could something like Invoker ever work in League?

RiotMeddler6 votes

Mage work will likely focus on the more offensive mages, rather than those with some more supportive elements to their kits (Karma, Ori, Morg etc). Not saying that category of champs is necessarily perfect, but that the more traditional damage focused mages need the work more.

We'll need to do some work on Azir to get him to a spot where he can be at least somewhat effective for the average player, without being excessively strong in top tier play. Unsure what methods we'll use for that yet, that'll be a project we deep dive early next year.

If looking at a spell combining character (Invoker/Magicka style) I'd want to start by defining the purpose of having lots of spells. If there's something that offers, besides novelty for its own sake/a barrier to entry, then it could be worth comparing that value to that we could offer by creating other champions. Given the balancing and accessibility difficulties champions with ~7 spells currently create I'm somewhat cynical that'd be a fruitful direction for a LoL champion, certainly wouldn't dismiss the idea out of hand though of course.

hopeful43 votes
  1. Do you plan on making FQC claim unviable for solo laners? I personally enjoy it, it gives diversity to the AP itemization and its pretty much the only item with impactful active that AP solo laners have except Zhonas.

  2. Any plans for spellvamp? The stat straight up sucks (good only for Vlad)

  3. Will you continue working in order to make Morde a viable duo laner, even at high levels of play? I will pretty dissappointed if not, since hes the only alternative for adc+supp duo. If yes, any plans on reworking other problematic champs to duo laners as well (like Yorick or Trynda) or new releases with that in mind?

  4. As far as a bunch of items are concerned, why dont you take away raw stats from them while making their actives more impactful? Im reffering to Randuins , Botrk, Aegis of Legion, Archangels (btw i want your opinion on Seraphs active, since i think that its very bland and doesnt serve any strategic purpose whatsoever)

Thanks for your time.

RiotMeddler12 votes

Our current thought is that it's fine if FQC is an option for mid laners, provided it isn't crowding out other item options. We're also seeing FQC be more dominant than it should be on duo laners too, so current intent is to nerf the mana regen and change the slow duration so that it scales based off how far the ghosts have traveled (worse point blank, slightly better at really long ranges). Goal there is to reward the more distinct use cases (scouting/long range catch) over the mid combat extra CC.

No immediate plans for spell vamp specifically, though we may follow up on some of the individual items with spell vamp like effects on them that were changed recently (Gunblade for example).

We do want to keep supporting Morde as a duo laner, though are also looking at ways to add a bit of power back to his solo lane at present. Morde's been both an experimental and a challenging project, so I'm sure we'll need to put a bunch of further work into him early next year too. Longer term we do want to get some more variety into bot lane, approach I'm most interested in investigating myself is trying to allow some mages to take the place of the marksmen there if desired.

For items and power in stats versus actives it depends on what the goal of the item is, the comparable options, who the users are, how windowed the power contribution should be versus always on etc. Seraph's Embrace has an active I personally think's quite well designed, since it gives strong, but very temporary, defence to a class that shouldn't be permanently tanky, presents a clear choice to enemies (wait out the shield or burn through it) and has some interesting interactions with other items/systems (increases value of other mana itemization, strong synergy with blue buff etc).

ducking fizz7 votes

Can you please do that you can see the range of FQC when hovering over it? c:

Athenes Lulu11 votes

DO NOT nerf the mana regen, the ONE stat that (almost) every utility support NEED.

Doing so still does not solve the problem that FQC is outclassing other mage items. With such an easily spammable active, ability to make it into a "free" item from passive gold, AND pretty much the only cheap mana regen item option, FQC will stay superior to Morello's and Athene's.

A better idea is to bring the other mana regen items to the same level as FQC, such as decrease the costs to build those. Increase FQC's combine cost is still a better idea than nerfing the mana regen. Make the active have a 120 second CD again, like what Twin Shadows used to be.

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

{quoted}

Our current thought is that it's fine if FQC is an option for mid laners, provided it isn't crowding out other item options. We're also seeing FQC be more dominant than it should be on duo laners too, so current intent is to nerf the mana regen and change the slow duration so that it scales based off how far the ghosts have traveled (worse point blank, slightly better at really long ranges). Goal there is to reward the more distinct use cases (scouting/long range catch) over the mid combat extra CC.

No immediate plans for spell vamp specifically, though we may follow up on some of the individual items with spell vamp like effects on them that were changed recently (Gunblade for example).

We do want to keep supporting Morde as a duo laner, though are also looking at ways to add a bit of power back to his solo lane at present. Morde's been both an experimental and a challenging project, so I'm sure we'll need to put a bunch of further work into him early next year too. Longer term we do want to get some more variety into bot lane, approach I'm most interested in investigating myself is trying to allow some mages to take the place of the marksmen there if desired.

For items and power in stats versus actives it depends on what the goal of the item is, the comparable options, who the users are, how windowed the power contribution should be versus always on etc. Seraph's Embrace has an active I personally think's quite well designed, since it gives strong, but very temporary, defence to a class that shouldn't be permanently tanky, presents a clear choice to enemies (wait out the shield or burn through it) and has some interesting interactions with other items/systems (increases value of other mana itemization, strong synergy with blue buff etc).

Any reason why not take the same path as SOTL, SOAG, Rune glaive ezreal, and general jungle item needing smite?

SpaceJordan1 votes

How would you enforce this?

Theturtlebox2 votes

require people to have exhaust to get support items? that's what the guy was saying. I like it.

Melondrama1 votes

that's a terrible idea because it locks supports out of taking ignite.

Theturtlebox2 votes

I was mostly just saying that that was what the guy above you was saying. But i don't see the problem with locking supports out of getting ignite. It isn't a "real" supports job to literally kill the target themselves and if they need grievous wounds then they can get morellos. Or the adc could get ignite.

Melondrama1 votes

Supports have few summoner options as it is. We don't need to be removing any. Besides, if the adc is taking ignite it's a good idea for you to take heal for them.

Seenan1 votes

{quoted}

Supports have few summoner options as it is. We don't need to be removing any. Besides, if the adc is taking ignite it's a good idea for you to take heal for them.

Any character with the 'support' champion tag?

Melondrama1 votes

{quoted}

Any character with the 'support' champion tag?

I don't think that's fair to the people that like to play off-meta supports. Not to mention there are even some meta supports that don't even have the support tag. Annie never had the support tag, Alistar has always been pure tank, and we all know what Nautilus was originally designed to do.

MrWasjig15 votes

Oh sure, nerf the mana regen. Not like WE don't need it or anything.

Sincerely A Support Main [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Mishli2 votes

Have you tried putting points into the mana regen mastery in the coming tree? I usually only put 3-4 points into it and by the time you finish your gold gen item, you can't really run out of mana unless you're spamming hard. Even on some ap mids if you're mindful of your costs you don't even need a mana regen item to get by, or blue buff, cuz shyvana always needs her blue buff

Gaphid1 votes

I am a Shyvana main and i can confirm this i refuse to give my midlaner blue buff because it's extremely important for Shyvana (that and ruining the enemy jungler life)

Mishli1 votes

see? proof, straight from the mana dragon's mouth

Ardarail1 votes

It's only been nerfed 150% -> 100%, hardly gamebreaking.

MrWasjig1 votes

Maybe so, but where does it end? It's 50% today but what about tomorrow?

McAnnex9 votes

It worries me that the notion of a dedicated support item representing healthy item diversity for midlaners is acceptable to you all. You made something that Supports needed (efficient/affordable stats) and are now having to punish them to keep it out of the hands of midlaners. Why not make items intended for use by AP mids more attractive than the support item? I feel like the draw to FCQ represents a weakness in items intended for AP mids, not evidence of an OP support item. FCQ has been awesome as a support and has made me feel like a more relevant part of my team. I feel punished and not because the item was too good for me (it was just right) but because it is better than lackluster AP mid items. I really think there is a more creative way to solve this problem. Items crowding out other items might indicate an OP status, but an item dedicated for supports crowding out all other items an AP mage might prefer represents a problem within their options.

thezerothcat3 votes

I agree with this. I main support, with mid as my secondary role, and favor squishy mages like Malzahar Brand Lux Karthus Karma Sona Soraka Janna Zilean. As a less experience player who just barely scraped gold last season, I realize my outlook isn't going to be the same as some of the better players, but here's my two cents.

When I'm playing a midlaner or damage support (so in other words, not Soraka where I want the mobility from Talisman, I'm probably going to be building a subset of these: item 3116 item 3157 item 3089 item 3151item 3285 item 3135 item 3092

For supports, I might also take one of these for the utility: item 3060 item 3504item 3050

With the recent changes to the meta, games often seem to be decided pretty early, so I don't tend to build item 3003 item 3027 because I feel the need to reach a damage powerspike ASAP. Even with no mana potions, I'm more likely to just grab a second item 1056 or ask for blue buff, and then rush damage so I can try to carry my team in between running back to base for mana refills.

I also don't build item 3001 very often, because I prefer my long range, and if I've lost lane badly enough to need the MR, I'd probably rather look for a roam and try to help someone else get ahead. I avoid item 3174 for similar reasons - there's a pretty big AP sacrifice for a fairly high gold price and no added utility, and the MR won't save me like Zhonya's will if the enemy team decides to dive.

I admit, I haven't really tried FQC as a midlaner yet, but I use it on support quite often, for the same reason I use Zhonya's - in a meta full of adcs and assassins who can kill me in about 3 seconds, I need a way to not die (or as a support, to help others not die) long enough to cast a spell or two, especially if someone flashed around that one skillshot I was counting on.

I actually build Zhonya's more often for support than mid, however, probably because I'm more likely to have someone there to save me while I'm in stasis.

I could certainly see a midlaner taking Frost Queen's Claim so they could have a way to get back to the team alive while roaming the map solo, even if it's still not enough to save them from champions like Olaf Nocturne MasterYi TwistedFate. If item 3069 had a decent amount of AP instead of the gold item passives, I'd take it on a midlaner in some cases, for repositioning in fights or escaping from a splitpush, although it probably wouldn't be the first item I'd complete.

Anything that can help my immobile squishy mages kite (or chase) better is appreciated, and while item 3285 is great, mobile champions or those with slows will probably cancel it out pretty easily, as will item 3046.

Speaking of slows, there's still not really a late-game mage option for item 3140. While my Malzahar certainly appreciates it, it also makes one less item to choose from on my mages unless I'm really taking a lot of cc.

Edit: On further reflection, I think item 3092 may also fill a gap in mana regen items - it's cheaper than item 3165, and sacrifices a bit of AP and CDR for a bit more mana regen and an active which is much more useful than the Grievous Wounds passive. If my team needs GW, they can get it from item 3123 on the adc (who's better at killing tanks anyway) instead of waiting until the enemy is halfway dead.

Cheap, cost-effective mana fixers that don't take too long to scale up like item 3070 are appreciated, especially now that I don't have mana potions to fall back on, and none the damage mage items item 3089 item 3157 item 3285 item 3151 item 3116 item 3135 do anything at all for mana.

As a support, I take item 3092 because I want the gold and the passive, while also liking the mana regen (which I could also get from item 3069), the extra bit of damage, and the CDR, probably in that order. As a midlaner, I might take it for the passive and the mana regen (which can only be replaced by item 1056 item 3165 or other items I just don't care for), with the AP and CDR being important but still secondary to those. It basically has a little of everything a poke champion would want in an item, regardless of which lane they go to.

Xelvi1 votes

{quoted}

Our current thought is that it's fine if FQC is an option for mid laners, provided it isn't crowding out other item options. We're also seeing FQC be more dominant than it should be on duo laners too, so current intent is to nerf the mana regen and change the slow duration so that it scales based off how far the ghosts have traveled (worse point blank, slightly better at really long ranges). Goal there is to reward the more distinct use cases (scouting/long range catch) over the mid combat extra CC.

No immediate plans for spell vamp specifically, though we may follow up on some of the individual items with spell vamp like effects on them that were changed recently (Gunblade for example).

We do want to keep supporting Morde as a duo laner, though are also looking at ways to add a bit of power back to his solo lane at present. Morde's been both an experimental and a challenging project, so I'm sure we'll need to put a bunch of further work into him early next year too. Longer term we do want to get some more variety into bot lane, approach I'm most interested in investigating myself is trying to allow some mages to take the place of the marksmen there if desired.

For items and power in stats versus actives it depends on what the goal of the item is, the comparable options, who the users are, how windowed the power contribution should be versus always on etc. Seraph's Embrace has an active I personally think's quite well designed, since it gives strong, but very temporary, defence to a class that shouldn't be permanently tanky, presents a clear choice to enemies (wait out the shield or burn through it) and has some interesting interactions with other items/systems (increases value of other mana itemization, strong synergy with blue buff etc).

Why does this item slow at all? The vision is enough.

Mr Promotion2 votes

Ao Shin?

Kürama2 votes

When they acquire the technology to develop his movement patterns / skills properly, yes.

RiotMeddler3 votes

We ran into both gameplay and animation challenges (serpentine body) with Ao Shin, which is why despite the reveal of concept art for him nearly two years ago he hasn't happened. We do still want to make a serpentine dragon at some point, we think it's a really cool space, can't offer anything more concrete than that at the moment though alas.

Atílla3 votes

{quoted}

We ran into both gameplay and animation challenges (serpentine body) with Ao Shin, which is why despite the reveal of concept art for him nearly two years ago he hasn't happened. We do still want to make a serpentine dragon at some point, we think it's a really cool space, can't offer anything more concrete than that at the moment though alas.

Wouldn't taking the same approach you did with Wolf (2nd half of Kindred) work for a model base? I mean, Wolf is pretty serpentine like with the spirit trail following him and he flows nicely.

Solidair31 votes

What roles do you typically main?

Also, do you play any of the champs that you designed? FeralPony recently mentioned that he did not like to play Graves before his rework, because casting a Q spell 5 billion times in testing and development can really kill it for you.

And do you have any interesting stories regarding Syndra's creation?

As for things I want to hear about, I'l like to hear more about the ideology that goes behind balance changes! Like "we took X away from [champion] because we didn't like that they were good at X, and prefer their identity be tied to Y" (LB's silence is I think a good example of this. Silence removed because really burst damage is her identity)

RiotMeddler4 votes

I like high utility champions with the ability to help allies out, so I tend to play a lot of support, some mid and some ADC. I've also been trying to focus on a second position I'm not as familiar with each ranked season too though, get a decent breadth of experience (thinking top lane this year).

I do play a moderate amount of most of the champions I've worked on, the mid/bot laners especially. Like FeralPony though I do sometimes find it a bit harder to play champions just for fun if I've worked on them a lot.

Syndra's development was a lot of fun, though it did take a while to iron out the Dark Sphere generation and destruction details. One playtest in particular I'd messed up the Dark Sphere removal, and instead of being destroyed properly they were being removed and then recreated at the spawning platform . For most of the game that wasn't a big deal, until Syndra's team got pushed back to their inhib towers. At that point the ult was then in range to pick up on the giant pile of spheres sitting at the fountain, so the next cast threw 50+ spheres at someone, getting a giant 'WTF' reaction unsurprisingly.

Thanks for the feedback RE more context on balance ideology.

Solidair33 votes

Thanks for the Syndra story! That sounds funny, and also surprisingly like the One For All Syndra experience.

And thank you for all the time you spend on the Boards, it's nice to have a steady rioter talking to us all the time!

MrBuffington1 votes

Hi Meddler

I'd like to hear your thoughts on less mobile champions; particularly how you feel the Juggernaut update went, and going forward, how the immobile mage update is likely to go/may be influenced by lessons learned. Also I was curious if you could give any hints on the scale and/or scope of the mage update (which champions are priorities, and if it's more along the scale of the marksman update or juggernaut update, etc.)

Thanks!

RiotMeddler3 votes

I think historically we've undercosted mobility at times, which has made mobile champions feel like the clearly superior choice. We've been looking to correct that, through things like the juggernaut update where characters without strong mobility get other powerful tools, or through effects like Poppy's W, that add some more risk or cost to mobility.

As far as the mage update goes that'll likely be a mid year thing. Number of champions changed will probably be closer to the Marksmen update than the juggernaut one, item changes probably smaller though (AP items don't need the same degree of overhaul AD itemization did). We'll talk details, in terms of which types of characters, and possibly some individual champions, sometime early next year.

Retillin1 votes

Is that wise? (making more ways to deal with the amount of strong mobility) It feels like you are building a whole new system to deal with mobility creep instead of more accurately assessing the power of mobility and compensating a kit to match.

RiotMeddler3 votes

I don't think there's a single tool that's the right solution. Some combination of compensatory power for the immobile, counterplay to mobility, mobility options through other elements (e.g. items like Dead Man's Plate) etc is I believe going to be the right approach.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

1)How does one go about applying for a job at Riot, or if that's not something you're particularly familiar with, how did you apply to Riot? I'm fresh out of game design college and would like to try applying if I can. If you want more of a way to turn this into a way to talk about how things are done at Riot, then what kind of talent and people do you guys look for when getting new designers?

2)What's Christmas like around Riot HQ?

3)Who would you say is your favorite champion that you didn't work on?

4)If you were to make a League of Legends 2, right now where you could change and upgrade things about the game, whether it be macro gameplay, micro gameplay, the map, champions, ect. what would you change?

RiotMeddler3 votes

http://www.riotgames.com/careers is the first place to start. I applied back in the day via an email in a forum post from Zileas, that was back when we were much smaller though and didn't have many folks focused on recruiting as their primary job.

For designers we're interested in:

  • Strong analytical ability (LoL, other games and other fields like hard sciences or engineering)
  • Broad creative problem solving (can you give a lot of possible solutions to a problem from a range of approaches and evaluate them appropriate)
  • Clear, concise communication skills, both written and verbal, particularly when it comes to conveying a vision or a nuanced concept
  • Good understanding of a range of game genres and player tastes within them
  • People with strong self drive, professionalism and pragmatism

Christmas is good fun, though tends to be really hectic as we try and get everything squared away for a bit before many people take a week or two off for the holidays. Generally a Christmas party or two (larger company one, smaller team one), sometimes plus something else (lot of us are going to see Star Wars VII on Thursday evening for example).

I really like Kog'Maw overall, though I don't personally enjoy playing him

Gonna have to mainly skip this one sorry, it's just too mammoth a question, particularly when it comes to topics like entire game systems. For a few quick small things off the top of the head though I'd want to look at a wider set of general action animations for all characters (e.g. use item, destory thing in world, cast generic spell etc), ensure every character had a clearly defined niche before they went into the game, get VO triggers for each champion for common actions.

Thryale1 votes

speaking of job applications. How important is submitting a cover letter to you guys? I've been procrastinating submitting an almost complete application to you guys for a player relations position due to getting writers block when it comes to writing a cover letter.

RiotMeddler2 votes

I'd recommend including a cover letter. No need to overdo it though, clear and concise is valuable.

Rebonack1 votes

Hey Meddler, nice to chat with you!

I was wondering if you could tell us a bit about the team's vision with Koggy. In particular, are you guys planning on trying to stick to the 'Protect the Kog' niche rather than some more exotic builds like JuggerMaw or AP Marksmen Kog? If you guys are sticking with 'Protect the Kog' how do you plan on making him attractive when compared to champions like Miss Fortune who also benefit strongly from having a team built around them who can get results much easier?

RiotMeddler1 votes

We do think Kog's a champ you should feel rewarded for building a protective team around, given his lack of escape/hard CC and dependence on sustained auto attacking. That's a space that a few different champions should be able to exist in though, provided they're doing it in different ways (e.g. MF as the wombo character you want to pair with AOE lockdown for the duration of her ult, Kog as the one you want to protect for extended periods of time with AA enhancing buffs where possible, Trist as the one to protect if you want to push towers quick mid game etc).

Rebonack6 votes

{quoted}

We do think Kog's a champ you should feel rewarded for building a protective team around, given his lack of escape/hard CC and dependence on sustained auto attacking. That's a space that a few different champions should be able to exist in though, provided they're doing it in different ways (e.g. MF as the wombo character you want to pair with AOE lockdown for the duration of her ult, Kog as the one you want to protect for extended periods of time with AA enhancing buffs where possible, Trist as the one to protect if you want to push towers quick mid game etc).

If Koggy is meant to be the 'protect this champion for a sustained length of time' ADC, then shouldn't his W be a toggle (Koggle-toggle?) that consumes mana per second? Because right now MF packs a ton of damage into three seconds. Kog deals lots of damage, too, but from a closer range to one person for up to six seconds. And when those six seconds are up, he's dead weight.

See, getting good results out of MF is much easier than Kog. Comparatively speaking, chaining two Ults together is something that's pretty easy to pull off in Solo. Koggy, by contrast, needs protection for six seconds while being exactly as immobile as a channeling MF if he wants to do any significant damage. That's quite a bit harder for a team of randomly assembled players to accomplish.

And that isn't even considering how much stronger MF is at the early stages of the game.

So yes, her way of filling the centerpiece ADC niche is different. However, her different way of doing it is safer, easier, and without a crippling early game holding it down.

That's why I asked the follow-up question that wasn't addressed. How do you make a mechanically (both for Kog's player and his team) more difficult centerpiece ADC desirable when contrasted with one that's more reliable and less teamwork reliant?

If he just gets his damage pumped until he's as attractive in Solo as, say, Jinx, then Koggy will rip the competitive scene a new one. If he's balanced around the competitive scene, then he'll be relegated into the dumpster in Solo. I bring this up because I have the sinking suspicion that you guys might be approaching the problem of balancing Koggy from a direction that really won't leave anyone satisfied.

If you will, at least consider an alternative approach if you decide that Kog still needs his power level boosted up. Make him a little more self-sufficient rather than just amping his damage. And I don't mean give him mobility or hard CC or a knockback on his E against melee opponents or anything like that. I mean a new Innate that lets him heal somehow. That would make him a little more resilient against dives and in duels without making his raw damage output too silly.

Thematically it makes quite a bit of sense. His Lore is all about eating stuff, right? And stealing health is one of the most consistent ways that concept is conveyed in League. Right now Koggy's Innate punishes enemies for playing against Kog correctly. It's hilarious, sure, but it just doesn't fit with his kit. Given his condition , now would be the perfect time to cook up an interesting new Innate for Koggy, maybe even something that makes his gameplay a little more interesting to make up for the loss of his old W-Trinity-R kiting play style.

Regardless, I hope you consider what I wrote up. As I'm sure you can tell I'm pretty passionate about the Voidpuppy and I would hate to see him left by the wayside after his rework while basically all the other ADCs enjoy their time in the limelight.

Hamentasch1 votes

Are there any plans to help Jayce? Only the Jayce mains play him now and his winrate has been abysmal ~46. He doesn't benefit very well from either ADC itemization or assassin itemization, not to mention how difficult he is to use late game because his QE has too long of a cooldown and Hyper Charge doesn't "hyperscale" like before.

RiotMeddler4 votes

Yeah, we think we'll need to do something for Jayce early next year. Itemization changes in 5.22 seem to have hit him pretty hard. Might look at Manamune and/or Muramana buffs, still figuring out which lever's best to use (is it a lack of power on kit or a lack of support from other systems).

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