Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 25

RiotMeddler·5/25/2017, 4:09:58 PM·1 votes·25,511 views

Hi all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Icon Updates and Items

One question that cropped up a bit after previous discussion on icon updates was whether we'd also be updating older item icons as well. Wanted to touch on that here. We do plan on gradually updating item icons, that's somewhere we need to be a bit more careful than with champion icons though. Being able to quickly identify items on the Tab screen's pretty important and whenever we've changed too many at once we've seen some very understandable frustration and confusion as a result. We gradually update item icons as a result, often though not always paired with some change in functionality (e.g. the recent Abyssal and GA changes). Wouldn't want to do a mass item icon change all at once.


Updated Subclass List

For anyone that missed it and is interested we posted an updated subclass list yesterday. Link to that below, along with a couple of threads where Statikk, myself and a few others were talking about a thinking with the changes a bit.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AIEmHs8v-new-classessubclasses-list

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/6d3unl/taking_another_look_at_subclasses/


LeBlanc

We got a bunch of people together this week to talk LeBlanc. She's been a problematic character historically, both in terms of balance and counterplay. Recently she's also been consuming a lot of designer time without significant improvement that could have been put into other champs. We concluded that there were some core problems that would need to be addressed to put LB in a spot where she's appropriately powerful, fair enough to play against, not universally a great or poor pick etc. Estimation as to what those are below:

  • Her risk profile (she gets a lot of assassin traits without the degree of commitment other similar champs take on when going for a kill, both in terms of personal risk and use of long CDs)
  • Insufficient counterplay when played well, in particular her safety/slipperiness (combination of W, mimicked W, clones)
  • A strong laning early game that, when combined with the above, makes her extra dominant in high Elo and pro play.

We believe we need to do at least a small update to her as a result, not just balance work. Without some meaningful changes we expect she'll otherwise get stuck in a state where she's still dominant in certain circumstances and feels pretty bad outside of those (as a point of reference Azir has similar, though not identical, challenges). An update doesn't feel great, given we put work into her just late last year, but we do think it's necessary. It's also possible the above analysis may change once we start looking at LB in depth.

In terms of timing, not sure yet, the above's the summary of a conversation we've literally just had. It's possible, though not guaranteed, that we may have to make some balance adjustments to her before we can get an update in. Also not clear yet what scope of update we're looking at, whether something on the smaller side (adjustments like those to Kindred or Heimer recently) or somewhat larger (Rek'Sai scope, with more significant ability changes).


AFK a little while

I'm going to be away from work for a few days starting pretty much now (visiting New York for the first time!). Won't be able to reply much in this thread as a result, also won't be another one of these posts from me until the later half of next week.

131 Comments

LankPants5/25/2017, 4:22:15 PM26 votes

Any chance we could have some of the threads about the subclass list that have popped up on the front page addressed? Just to create a short list to summarise

Rengar: 1, 2

Zyra: 1, 2

LB: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/B4EqJEEN-leblanc-is-officially-classified-as-a-burst-mage

Karma: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/iaveRctM-karma-is-no-longer-a-hybrid-battlemage

Marksmen as a whole (far less of an issue though): https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/HJ8Ekb9v-marksmen-subclasses

I think it's fair to say that there's some very questionable choices in this list that many don't agree with.

Edit: missed this one, it's certainly more of a minor gripe, but catcher is a silly name.

ƒrostγ5/25/2017, 4:13:26 PM12 votes

Have fun in NY !

Wh4t5/25/2017, 5:38:47 PM10 votes

Revert LB to pre assassin update and start from there, current LB is not enjoyable

veigarbage can5/25/2017, 4:15:07 PM9 votes

Have a good time in New York! If you have any idea, what are all the champs that you're planning on updating icons for?

Ganked By Tilt5/25/2017, 4:32:02 PM8 votes

Any plans for Diana? i know she's part of the diver update but small buffs would help now

zippyHD5/25/2017, 5:02:40 PM7 votes

Hey Meddler. My suggestion is to revert Leblanc's rework, the reason for it is beucase Leblanc's main role in a teamfight is to remove their ADC or catch someone with her chain, but thats where the new Leblanc is failing, her chain can do the work but her passive is holding her back in teamfights, where she needs to wait 1,5 sec to get acces to remove their ADC and in a teamfight, there is a big chance that Leblanc is already dead at that time, so my suggestion is to revert the rework or make the passive to atleast pop instant when you through a ability, if people sees that as OP, then there is always place to adjust her damage.Leblanc

Endza5/25/2017, 7:30:04 PM7 votes

What about Rengar!?

GigaPube5/25/2017, 5:41:36 PM6 votes

i really dont like that easy waveclear mechanic of leblanc and ryze. not only does it feel like the cheapest laziest aspect on a champions kit, but its just totally unnatural and counter-intuitive to what makes abilities interesting and unique. what business does leblanc have clearing waves instantly so she can supposedly keep up with taliyahs and lissandras for faster sidelane gank assistance. she was one of the most dangerous assassins in the game. the midlane is now mainly about waveclearing and roaming, so she got some waveclear slapped on her specifically to be considered a great all round pick especially for the meta, and then she just did everything too well

this is exactly like kalista with her martial poise. riots like "ok adc's deal damage with autos, but at the highest level its all about kiting, so we'll give her the best possible kiting mechanic and she'll be a great adc"

(just like how now at the highest level its about waveclear and roaming in the midlane so they give newly reworked ryze and leblanc strong single target damage but still even stronger and easier waveclear)

i really thought riot were on the right track with jhin though. hes the complete opposite of kalista, less mobility and safety than most adc's, and hes pretty favorable for pick rate and is pretty balanced, somehow

Yordle Xayah5/25/2017, 5:28:25 PM5 votes

Tristana

Pannanja5/25/2017, 10:18:33 PM5 votes

I'd really love to see LB moved towards using strategy and deception to close distance on her target, rather than just having a massive threat range and fast combo. Her invisibility and clone don't really feel like a significant or satisfying part of her kit right now. Most of the time people are ulting for the spell, not the disappearing act. And her RR has a ridiculously high skill floor and even when used well it is really unreliable.

I'd also love to see more unique utility put into each of her mimicked spells, similar to karma and heimer, rather than just a copy with modified damage. Splitting up her invisibility and clone, putting the clone on RW2 and the invisibility on RE or RQ, and giving her a shield or something on the other would strengthen each one's strategic identity and give her more options when dealing with threats than just dash and juke.

FrostyBlue5/25/2017, 5:14:03 PM4 votes

Have you guys ever thought about Draven nerfs?

Megazoz5/25/2017, 4:32:57 PM4 votes

Hi Middler! While you do the Leblanc update, can you please update her base model please, I think she really needs it. Thanks in advance [slayer-jinx-wink]

yesnobanana5/25/2017, 6:21:18 PM3 votes

Opinion on Viktor? he's clearly in need of a buff. you said that you will keep an eye on him after the item 3116 nerf, yet now he is severly underpowered for some patches now and still no buff in sight. opinion?

Jinzo Torrance5/25/2017, 5:03:22 PM3 votes

Any plans for Viktor?

Onkel Malte5/25/2017, 5:33:56 PM3 votes

I would love to see a larger LeBlanc update.

QuackMaster5/25/2017, 6:01:54 PM3 votes

I think i can speak for all the Leblanc players when I say that we don't enjoy the rework, and for what I have seen neither do the people i play against. We would much prefer a weaker Leblanc than this point-and-click one-shot she is now. I onestly think that old LB was way much more balancable, maybe reverting the rework and doing some changes to old LB is probably the best choice. I'm not saying old LB was fine, but she was never in the place this one is right now, maybe putting some nerf on the old QR poke (maybe shift the dmg more on the proc of the mark rather than application, like 30% - 70%) and some small adjustment she could actually be fair to play against and fun to play for us.

Shadow Hazard5/25/2017, 7:04:51 PM3 votes

Hope you have a good trip. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that the community will miss you.

If any rioter is still looking at the comments, what is the feel on the recent leaks, not asking for confirmation of how correct they are.

Rengooo5/25/2017, 8:29:21 PM3 votes

It's awesome that you are addressing LB Meddler. Could you also please look at Rengar? - or just talk to us about him.

Monotachi5/25/2017, 9:47:22 PM3 votes

{quoted}

LeBlanc It's possible, though not guaranteed, that we may have to make some balance adjustments to her before we can get an update in.

Would this mean at least some changes to LB to encourage her to stop using Gunblade before the mini-update?

Sulphurous5/26/2017, 6:26:15 PM3 votes

Leblanc You reworked LeBlanc because she was too overpowered and now you want to rerework her because she's still overpowered? Why dont you revert her changes?Yes, she was OP, she was hard to counter but she's not the only one!Zed is OP, Yasuo is OP and many more but they dont get reworks and nerfs every single patch...

As a LeBlanc main, i dont feel her as an assassin anymore... It takes centuries for this mark(the passive) to be completed... Look at other assassins and then look at LeBlanc, now tell me how many seconds you can live against champions like Talon, Zed, Kha'Zix, Fizz, Rengar and how much time it takes for LeBlanc to kill you... She dont have the potention to oneshot you.That was her best part - go in , go out - BANG, you're DEAD. There are many OP champions, but now we will have 10 bans in competitive games.So, whats the problem? Live with it! Leblanc

Arthropod5/27/2017, 4:46:37 PM3 votes

Speaking of Icon Updates, can you guys please update/fix Kha'zix's icon? Khazix His face looks so much worse than in his champion splash art, specifically the eye. The eye in his icon just looks like a bright green light, whereas in his splash it actually looks like a void creature's eye (ik that it was meant for clarity reasons, but it really doesn't clear things up). Although the icon doesn't look as bad when it is small, it looks really blurry when zoomed in, like when you're in champ select or if it is your highest mastery champion on your profile. Please just switch the icon with his face from the splash art. BTW his splash art's icon would look like this: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=880156

Hello Im Rengar5/30/2017, 8:50:12 AM3 votes

Rengar

What about Rengar. After the mini rework hasnt Rengar become more problematic than ever. Ater constant nerfs he still is the best killer of adc's this season. Rengar is champion which design is too kill or cuase alot of damage to a enermy champion in a very short amount of time with little reaction time. Please considr Rengar.

S0ul Tormentor6/7/2017, 12:22:43 PM3 votes

For Leblanc, as a former main, and since mobility seems to be a problem I just thought of this :

  • standard W does not have snapback, but has better damage/scaling
  • mimiced W has snapback without delay. Alternatively damage amplification, means LB has to land the mimiced W first to dish out tons of damage.

Tune W missile speed to original to give some power back ?

Side note : The delay added on snapback is one of the worst design changes on LeBlanc when considering smoothness of play, it feels choppy as hell (even though I perfectly understand the need for counterplay with LB being stuck when going in).

Side note #2 : I don't like the ult toggle too, makes the combos much less snappy and can screw combos over, but here again I guess it was done to offer counterplay with less instantaneous combos and make the R-R possible.

Why the change I propose could be interesting :

  • Lane trading is more risky but more rewarding pre 6 (no snapback)
    • To have safe damage E is the way to go, but requires to land a skillshot and can be blocked by creeps
    • Other trading pattern : Q first then W then E, but then you are stuck in melee range for a certain amount of time
  • Lane trading post 6 is less interesting for a long range engage : you either mimic W first then W in and miss the better damage/amp of the empowered W to have a safe snapback or you W then mimic W and get better damage but a closer snapback

Dunno if passive and toggle ult mechanics should be changed.

It would be sad to see this though, I liked the hyper mobility and former burst of the champ.

HoH Indie5/26/2017, 4:34:04 AM3 votes

When we get to icon changes, can we please give summoner 7 summoner 3 a lift? They just stick out like sore thumbs among all these shiny new summoner spell icons.

Malicious Metal5/25/2017, 4:20:47 PM2 votes

Hey there Meddler!

I had a question regarding Galio's current state. Do you think he's in a decent spot or do you feel he's a tad too good (especially in pro play). Most of his current builds have no AP in them whatsoever but he's still a major threat with base damages.

If I recall correctly you said he's supposed to build at least some Ap, so is he being looked at in regards to nerfs/power shifts?

Thanks in advance!

The Yetii Rider5/25/2017, 11:57:29 PM2 votes

I fucking called it. When the assassin rework was announced the very first thing I had to say on the subject was "ranged assassins don't work, you should really consider whether LeBlanc can even function in this role".

ChaddyFantome6/12/2017, 12:41:47 PM2 votes

I never got to play old Karma but I personally would really like to. Re-rework her back to something akin to her old self. it actually seemed much more balance-able and less of a generalist than current Karma. Save for the Less HP = More AP thing, I don't see why she needs to be in her current state when her old self was so much more unique.

Sexy Jack Rabbit5/26/2017, 5:06:40 AM2 votes

I find it funny that you sort of whined about "We just put so much work into LB" when you clearly didn't, otherwise these problems wouldn't of come up the way they did.

Katarina's Update was fine. Talon's was fine. Fizz's after recent nerfs and changes to his ultimate, is fine.

I love and respect Riot and they work they do, but I feel like there is no right to whine about LB's current state when you're the ones entirely at fault.