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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 25

RiotMeddler··1 votes·25,511 views

Hi all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Icon Updates and Items

One question that cropped up a bit after previous discussion on icon updates was whether we'd also be updating older item icons as well. Wanted to touch on that here. We do plan on gradually updating item icons, that's somewhere we need to be a bit more careful than with champion icons though. Being able to quickly identify items on the Tab screen's pretty important and whenever we've changed too many at once we've seen some very understandable frustration and confusion as a result. We gradually update item icons as a result, often though not always paired with some change in functionality (e.g. the recent Abyssal and GA changes). Wouldn't want to do a mass item icon change all at once.


Updated Subclass List

For anyone that missed it and is interested we posted an updated subclass list yesterday. Link to that below, along with a couple of threads where Statikk, myself and a few others were talking about a thinking with the changes a bit.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AIEmHs8v-new-classessubclasses-list

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/6d3unl/taking_another_look_at_subclasses/


LeBlanc

We got a bunch of people together this week to talk LeBlanc. She's been a problematic character historically, both in terms of balance and counterplay. Recently she's also been consuming a lot of designer time without significant improvement that could have been put into other champs. We concluded that there were some core problems that would need to be addressed to put LB in a spot where she's appropriately powerful, fair enough to play against, not universally a great or poor pick etc. Estimation as to what those are below:

  • Her risk profile (she gets a lot of assassin traits without the degree of commitment other similar champs take on when going for a kill, both in terms of personal risk and use of long CDs)
  • Insufficient counterplay when played well, in particular her safety/slipperiness (combination of W, mimicked W, clones)
  • A strong laning early game that, when combined with the above, makes her extra dominant in high Elo and pro play.

We believe we need to do at least a small update to her as a result, not just balance work. Without some meaningful changes we expect she'll otherwise get stuck in a state where she's still dominant in certain circumstances and feels pretty bad outside of those (as a point of reference Azir has similar, though not identical, challenges). An update doesn't feel great, given we put work into her just late last year, but we do think it's necessary. It's also possible the above analysis may change once we start looking at LB in depth.

In terms of timing, not sure yet, the above's the summary of a conversation we've literally just had. It's possible, though not guaranteed, that we may have to make some balance adjustments to her before we can get an update in. Also not clear yet what scope of update we're looking at, whether something on the smaller side (adjustments like those to Kindred or Heimer recently) or somewhat larger (Rek'Sai scope, with more significant ability changes).


AFK a little while

I'm going to be away from work for a few days starting pretty much now (visiting New York for the first time!). Won't be able to reply much in this thread as a result, also won't be another one of these posts from me until the later half of next week.

131 Comments

LankPants26 votes

Any chance we could have some of the threads about the subclass list that have popped up on the front page addressed? Just to create a short list to summarise

Rengar: 1, 2

Zyra: 1, 2

LB: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/B4EqJEEN-leblanc-is-officially-classified-as-a-burst-mage

Karma: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/iaveRctM-karma-is-no-longer-a-hybrid-battlemage

Marksmen as a whole (far less of an issue though): https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/HJ8Ekb9v-marksmen-subclasses

I think it's fair to say that there's some very questionable choices in this list that many don't agree with.

Edit: missed this one, it's certainly more of a minor gripe, but catcher is a silly name.

AirKingNeo2 votes

An of course Kayle not being a Marksmen/Enchanter anymore...

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

I think Kayle falls into the same position as Ivern. She has 1 main spell that could reasonably identify her as an Enchanter.

You could argue her ultimate but then you could start arguing Kindred's ultimate identifies them as an Enchanter.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Kayle has 3 enchanter abilities. Her passive, her W, and her ult.

Ivern has 2 (technically 3). Ivern's Q and his E, and his W if you're Rengar.

BenParadox1 votes

I don't really see her Passive as an enchanter tool. She is certainly a Marksman/Enchanter, but her P is really just a resistance shredding tool.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Enchanters enchance their allies. Kayle's shred boosts ally damage.

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

That'd be like saying Amumu is an enchanter then. He has a Stun on Q, and his Passive boosts ally damage.

ƒrostγ12 votes

Have fun in NY !

Wh4t10 votes

Revert LB to pre assassin update and start from there, current LB is not enjoyable

Lebłanc Bot7 votes

So very true. Balancing her pre rework is the best option really.

ShadowParker14 votes

She really isn't though. She's much fairer now than before. At least you now you have a couple of seconds before you die where as before you would die no matter what in .01 secs.

Michael Sykes3 votes

{quoted}

She really isn't though. She's much fairer now than before. At least you now you have a couple of seconds before you die where as before you would die no matter what in .01 secs.

there could be other solutions with her old kit or adjusments which make her passive cooking time go down with levels, so that damage can be taken away

ShadowParker4 votes

Or they could do that with her new kit that they have newer data on and better code.

Lebłanc Bot2 votes

Well then you think that everyother assassin and burst mage is fair right ? They now can all burst faster than her. It isnt fair when an annie can burst you while stunded and all you as leblanc can do is wait 1.5 seconds. She isnt fairer btw. Her bs wave clear is very unhealthy and her w nerfs made her not even want to get into melee range with w. Her clones are gimicky and takes no skill by the player but might be life saving. Old lb could only oneshot when ahead and the enemy didnt build much MR.

veigarbage can9 votes

Have a good time in New York! If you have any idea, what are all the champs that you're planning on updating icons for?

japhib2 votes

You might've already seen this, but the ones he mentioned a couple days ago were Ahri, Amumu, Dr. Mundo, and Nunu, as well as red/blue/baron buff icons. He also asked for suggestions so if you have one in mind definitely shout it out!

Ganked By Tilt8 votes

Any plans for Diana? i know she's part of the diver update but small buffs would help now

SociopathFriend2 votes

Does she need buffs? I know she's not played very often but the few times I have seen her she's generally dominated the match.

Ganked By Tilt2 votes

{quoted}

Does she need buffs? I know she's not played very often but the few times I have seen her she's generally dominated the match.

Yes she needs buffs, she's been completely out of meta for a long time now and its getting worse. Her items have all been nerfed and now people are building banshees/GA keeping them alive along with how obnoxious supports are with heals/shields and exhaust, she cant do her one job she's good at oneshoting people because either they die or she dies.

zippyHD7 votes

Hey Meddler. My suggestion is to revert Leblanc's rework, the reason for it is beucase Leblanc's main role in a teamfight is to remove their ADC or catch someone with her chain, but thats where the new Leblanc is failing, her chain can do the work but her passive is holding her back in teamfights, where she needs to wait 1,5 sec to get acces to remove their ADC and in a teamfight, there is a big chance that Leblanc is already dead at that time, so my suggestion is to revert the rework or make the passive to atleast pop instant when you through a ability, if people sees that as OP, then there is always place to adjust her damage.Leblanc

japhib11 votes

The main goal of all the assassin reworks was to inject some time into their combos so that there's time for counterplay (shields, heals, flashing/dashing away). I doubt they'll revert that part of it.

Endza7 votes

What about Rengar!?

GigaPube6 votes

i really dont like that easy waveclear mechanic of leblanc and ryze. not only does it feel like the cheapest laziest aspect on a champions kit, but its just totally unnatural and counter-intuitive to what makes abilities interesting and unique. what business does leblanc have clearing waves instantly so she can supposedly keep up with taliyahs and lissandras for faster sidelane gank assistance. she was one of the most dangerous assassins in the game. the midlane is now mainly about waveclearing and roaming, so she got some waveclear slapped on her specifically to be considered a great all round pick especially for the meta, and then she just did everything too well

this is exactly like kalista with her martial poise. riots like "ok adc's deal damage with autos, but at the highest level its all about kiting, so we'll give her the best possible kiting mechanic and she'll be a great adc"

(just like how now at the highest level its about waveclear and roaming in the midlane so they give newly reworked ryze and leblanc strong single target damage but still even stronger and easier waveclear)

i really thought riot were on the right track with jhin though. hes the complete opposite of kalista, less mobility and safety than most adc's, and hes pretty favorable for pick rate and is pretty balanced, somehow

Hinagiku336 votes

Leblanc has wave-clear for a very good reason: without it she is utter garbage.

I still remember Season 2 and 3 when LB had more damage, could dish it all out in 0.1 seconds, and had a Silence on her Q and she was still considered trash tier. Katarina used to be the same way before her first rework replaced her W with an AoE ability specifically to enable her to farm minions waves easily.

LB (and old Kat) was a massive balance issue back in the day because she was an assassin - i.e. an extremely item-reliant class that live or die on their gold income - that was very bad at farming and thus was at huge risk for having low gold income and being totally useless. The only way to offset this was to give her insanely high kill potential in lane so she could try and farm early kills until she got enough AP to farm minions properly. As you can imagine, this made a skilled LB a nightmare in lane and a LB that was denied early kills a total joke.

For the assassin update, Riot specifically wanted to ensure that LB could farm properly like other mages so they could tune down her early kill potential without making her completely unplayable. Having decent to good wave-clear gives LB a fallback pattern so she isn't completely screwed if she doesn't score a kill or two in the first 10 minutes. The power to clear waves comes directly from her power to assassinate with no/few items so it is easier to deny her kills and gives her opponents more breathing room in lane.

If you remove her wave-clear, that power will only go back to her kill potential so she can farm champions in lane instead.

Vouloir Oublier2 votes

lol I remember those days, one time I was so fed that all I had to do was q them once wait a little bit then qr and it killed them instantly from 3/4 hp

Yordle Xayah5 votes

Tristana

Pannanja5 votes

I'd really love to see LB moved towards using strategy and deception to close distance on her target, rather than just having a massive threat range and fast combo. Her invisibility and clone don't really feel like a significant or satisfying part of her kit right now. Most of the time people are ulting for the spell, not the disappearing act. And her RR has a ridiculously high skill floor and even when used well it is really unreliable.

I'd also love to see more unique utility put into each of her mimicked spells, similar to karma and heimer, rather than just a copy with modified damage. Splitting up her invisibility and clone, putting the clone on RW2 and the invisibility on RE or RQ, and giving her a shield or something on the other would strengthen each one's strategic identity and give her more options when dealing with threats than just dash and juke.

Megazoz4 votes

Hi Middler! While you do the Leblanc update, can you please update her base model please, I think she really needs it. Thanks in advance [slayer-jinx-wink]

FrostyBlue4 votes

Have you guys ever thought about Draven nerfs?

Jinzo Torrance3 votes

Any plans for Viktor?

Onkel Malte3 votes

I would love to see a larger LeBlanc update.

QuackMaster3 votes

I think i can speak for all the Leblanc players when I say that we don't enjoy the rework, and for what I have seen neither do the people i play against. We would much prefer a weaker Leblanc than this point-and-click one-shot she is now. I onestly think that old LB was way much more balancable, maybe reverting the rework and doing some changes to old LB is probably the best choice. I'm not saying old LB was fine, but she was never in the place this one is right now, maybe putting some nerf on the old QR poke (maybe shift the dmg more on the proc of the mark rather than application, like 30% - 70%) and some small adjustment she could actually be fair to play against and fun to play for us.

yesnobanana3 votes

Opinion on Viktor? he's clearly in need of a buff. you said that you will keep an eye on him after the item 3116 nerf, yet now he is severly underpowered for some patches now and still no buff in sight. opinion?

Häxel4 votes

i woudl say he is hard to balance. either he is too strong or too weak. kinda like vlad, lb, azir, ryze. like he got succesful picked from perkz during msi. But high elo/low elo diffrences are here too big again.

UnsocialPlane33 votes

Just give him back his 1000g upgrade of first hexcore.

Shadow Hazard3 votes

Hope you have a good trip. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that the community will miss you.

If any rioter is still looking at the comments, what is the feel on the recent leaks, not asking for confirmation of how correct they are.

Rengooo3 votes

It's awesome that you are addressing LB Meddler. Could you also please look at Rengar? - or just talk to us about him.

Monotachi3 votes

{quoted}

LeBlanc It's possible, though not guaranteed, that we may have to make some balance adjustments to her before we can get an update in.

Would this mean at least some changes to LB to encourage her to stop using Gunblade before the mini-update?

HoH Indie3 votes

When we get to icon changes, can we please give summoner 7 summoner 3 a lift? They just stick out like sore thumbs among all these shiny new summoner spell icons.

Sulphurous3 votes

Leblanc You reworked LeBlanc because she was too overpowered and now you want to rerework her because she's still overpowered? Why dont you revert her changes?Yes, she was OP, she was hard to counter but she's not the only one!Zed is OP, Yasuo is OP and many more but they dont get reworks and nerfs every single patch...

As a LeBlanc main, i dont feel her as an assassin anymore... It takes centuries for this mark(the passive) to be completed... Look at other assassins and then look at LeBlanc, now tell me how many seconds you can live against champions like Talon, Zed, Kha'Zix, Fizz, Rengar and how much time it takes for LeBlanc to kill you... She dont have the potention to oneshot you.That was her best part - go in , go out - BANG, you're DEAD. There are many OP champions, but now we will have 10 bans in competitive games.So, whats the problem? Live with it! Leblanc

sit kid3 votes

Zed is OP, Yasuo is OP and many more but they dont get reworks and nerfs every single patch...

But they didn't just click on you and jump your face to take 60% of your HP at level 2. Honestly, this was the only problem I had with LB. Her level 2 spike. In itself, it was a spike, but her base damages were so stupid.

And I remember these

Q did 55 at rank one. Both mark and cast. W did 85.

55+55+85 in BASE damages. That shit is Galio level of base damage.

TheThrillOfHunt2 votes

"Zed is op, Yasuo is op" wait what the actual fuck ?

Arthropod3 votes

Speaking of Icon Updates, can you guys please update/fix Kha'zix's icon? Khazix His face looks so much worse than in his champion splash art, specifically the eye. The eye in his icon just looks like a bright green light, whereas in his splash it actually looks like a void creature's eye (ik that it was meant for clarity reasons, but it really doesn't clear things up). Although the icon doesn't look as bad when it is small, it looks really blurry when zoomed in, like when you're in champ select or if it is your highest mastery champion on your profile. Please just switch the icon with his face from the splash art. BTW his splash art's icon would look like this: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=880156

Hello Im Rengar3 votes

Rengar

What about Rengar. After the mini rework hasnt Rengar become more problematic than ever. Ater constant nerfs he still is the best killer of adc's this season. Rengar is champion which design is too kill or cuase alot of damage to a enermy champion in a very short amount of time with little reaction time. Please considr Rengar.

S0ul Tormentor3 votes

For Leblanc, as a former main, and since mobility seems to be a problem I just thought of this :

  • standard W does not have snapback, but has better damage/scaling
  • mimiced W has snapback without delay. Alternatively damage amplification, means LB has to land the mimiced W first to dish out tons of damage.

Tune W missile speed to original to give some power back ?

Side note : The delay added on snapback is one of the worst design changes on LeBlanc when considering smoothness of play, it feels choppy as hell (even though I perfectly understand the need for counterplay with LB being stuck when going in).

Side note #2 : I don't like the ult toggle too, makes the combos much less snappy and can screw combos over, but here again I guess it was done to offer counterplay with less instantaneous combos and make the R-R possible.

Why the change I propose could be interesting :

  • Lane trading is more risky but more rewarding pre 6 (no snapback)
    • To have safe damage E is the way to go, but requires to land a skillshot and can be blocked by creeps
    • Other trading pattern : Q first then W then E, but then you are stuck in melee range for a certain amount of time
  • Lane trading post 6 is less interesting for a long range engage : you either mimic W first then W in and miss the better damage/amp of the empowered W to have a safe snapback or you W then mimic W and get better damage but a closer snapback

Dunno if passive and toggle ult mechanics should be changed.

It would be sad to see this though, I liked the hyper mobility and former burst of the champ.

Add Me After3 votes

I agree on the toggle ult and snapback - I liked Leblanc because she felt really quick and smooth... I had to drop her because she no longer had that feeling, instead she just felt clunky

Malicious Metal2 votes

Hey there Meddler!

I had a question regarding Galio's current state. Do you think he's in a decent spot or do you feel he's a tad too good (especially in pro play). Most of his current builds have no AP in them whatsoever but he's still a major threat with base damages.

If I recall correctly you said he's supposed to build at least some Ap, so is he being looked at in regards to nerfs/power shifts?

Thanks in advance!

The Yetii Rider2 votes

I fucking called it. When the assassin rework was announced the very first thing I had to say on the subject was "ranged assassins don't work, you should really consider whether LeBlanc can even function in this role".

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

I find it funny that you sort of whined about "We just put so much work into LB" when you clearly didn't, otherwise these problems wouldn't of come up the way they did.

Katarina's Update was fine. Talon's was fine. Fizz's after recent nerfs and changes to his ultimate, is fine.

I love and respect Riot and they work they do, but I feel like there is no right to whine about LB's current state when you're the ones entirely at fault.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

I never got to play old Karma but I personally would really like to. Re-rework her back to something akin to her old self. it actually seemed much more balance-able and less of a generalist than current Karma. Save for the Less HP = More AP thing, I don't see why she needs to be in her current state when her old self was so much more unique.

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