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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 3 part II

RiotMeddler··1 votes·38,351 views

Hey all,

More stuff on our minds here, now on the actual 3rd of March. I've been pretty happy with how this style of post has been going so far, so going to stick with it for a while at least. Around 3 posts a week seems to be about right at present in terms of how much we've got to talk about so should be able to expect that sort of cadence for now. Imagine that'll spike up and down a bit during some periods (e.g. around mid-season). As a reminder since I work primarily with the gameplay teams these posts will mainly talk about gameplay stuff, so a lot of the time I won't be able to speak in an informed manner about other non core gameplay stuff like skins, matchmaking, rotating game modes, Esports rules etc.


Older champ polish passes

We've got some small sets of non power impacting changes coming to a few older champs in 7.5. Those are changes designed to give some improvements to how a champion with older art feels to play by better synching up some of their animations and visual effects with the actions being performed. That's something we put quite a bit of time into doing with new champs, so we figured it'd probably be valuable to do a pass on older champs and see what wasn't quite lined up right back in the day.

Quick version of what that'll look like in 7.5 (more details to come in the patch notes):

  • Jax - Better sync between attack animations and actual impacts, attack sequence for the ult, some E clarity
  • Cho - Better match between W spell effect area and actual area affected.
  • Nocturne - E tether range indicator for Nocturne, R slight animation adjustments.

A lot of the other older champs we've looked at so far didn't have much we could adjust in this way. We expect we'll find at least a few more similar cases to hit though, so should get a bit more like this into upcoming patches too.


Tooltip Tweaks

We've got a few tweaks to tooltip color and format going out in patch 7.5. Please do let us know how those feel once you've had a bit of time with them, we're interested in tweaking them further. Longer term we'd like to do a bigger tooltip overhaul too, when's unclear however (people that would do that are working on other stuff for a while). For now though we're looking for ways to polish the current ones so they're in a better state.


Some possible 7.6 balance targets

  • Morgana - Potential small buffs.
  • Shen - Likely nerf target. Tough case because he's out of line specifically for organized teams (not just in pro, though that's the most visible case of course). Currently looking at pulling power out of his ult which is where the difference in effectiveness for those different contexts lies with ongoing discussion as to what changes we could make to make him closer to balanced for both solo queue and organized teams at the same time.
  • Quinn - Potentially still too strong after the Edge of Night and Ghostblade nerfs in 7.4. If that doesn't look like the case closer to ship might go for some power neutral changes instead. Aiming to make her gank pattern a bit more interactive regardless.
  • Cho'gath - Might need buffs. We've seen a number of struggling Cho'gaths after the 7.5 changes, having said that though his play rates shot up massively, so a lot of that could just be people unfamiliar with Cho and people experimenting with different builds given the changes. We're prepping some buffs should they be needed, might pull back on them if appropriate though.
  • Lissandra - Is struggling a bit at present, and should do ok in a meta with a decent number of assassins played. Looking at possible buffs as a result, with the secondary goal of making her passive more satisfying.

150 Comments

InTheory24 votes

[deleted]

Bisaknosp20 votes

make the shield scale of the ally's missing hp maybe?

InTheory3 votes

[deleted]

Lùmen2 votes

What I see is : Cut raw numbers, add a missing HP factor to reward a good use of it but it should still count as a decent nerf regardless, hence having a bit of a power shift towards Q or base stats, perhaps?

AMYS GRAVE7 votes

hence having a bit of a power shit towards Q or base stats, perhaps?

...

a power shit towards Q

...

a power shit

haha

Lùmen3 votes

oops

AcidTheWarlock2 votes

Don't you just hate shit showing up by accident?

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

Not just a shit, a power shit.

AcidTheWarlock2 votes

Ezreal

Arcane

errrrrrr

"shift"

lul

Decrit2 votes

ooh, so that' s what it is that additional projectile fired during the spell

RiotMeddler22 votes

We've actually got exactly that in testing :).

Melledoneus2 votes

Any idea if you're considering lowering the base values and changing the AP scaling to bonus HP scaling?

Nobody really plays anything but tank Shen anymore, so enforcing build diversity isn't even a factor anymore.

RiotMeddler8 votes

Taking off the AP scaling wouldn't give us any power budget to add HP scaling. As you say it's not having any impact on the most powerful builds already, so that just means we'd be removing niche builds that don't seem unhealthy and buffing the most common build.

Melledoneus2 votes

Speaking of power budgets, how do you determine that? And how much power to give to a champion? If there is a number for it, how much does Shen have and do you think he could use a better scaling ultimate at the price of less base values? It feels like such a weak shield for saving allies because even a single ability or two, hell even a crit can rip through it at all stages.

There is so much potential to be tapped in Shen's ultimate and I think that the shield is underwhelming ever since keystones were introduced.

GamerCrystal13 votes

Will you nerf item 3047's passive at some point?

cocacolalips10 votes

Morgana Feedback

Issues:

  • Her Q and her E are very strong
  • Her passive, her W and her R are very weak

Explanations + Solutions:

  • Buff her passive W and R maybe at the cost of Q and E.

Abilities

  • Passive - Soul Siphon

  • The spell vamp is borderline unnoticeable, she has the worst sustain in the game amongst champions who have innate sustain in their kit, her total damage healed on the scoreboard at the end of a game is absolutely laughable. Quite frankly, she could use a different passive entirely, and if the life leech fantasy appeals to you, move the sustain to her W or R while also significantly Increasing the values against champions.

  • W - Tormented soil

  • The skill is borderline useless on its own, and only useful when used in conjunction with her Q and sometimes her R, maybe re-balance the damage so it deals more guaranteed damage on the first tick, or the first time it ticks a target, or add something to it so it's bit more menacing on its own.

  • possible spellvamp being moved from her current passive

  • R - Soul Shackles

  • Arguably one of the worst ultimate in the game, not because it is bad perse, it does okay damage and has some utility, but because it is borderline unusable in the first place. The delay between the 2 ticks of damage is too long and Morgana doesn't have the tools to survive for the whole duration. It is so much weaker than all the similar R, Galio, Kennen, Fiddlestick, Zyra, Orianna, Cassiopeia etc are much better, Morgana R can be interrupted, the chain can be broken, can be escaped, she can be killed and the damage is delayed. The only way to use it realistically is to cast it in conjunction with Zhonya's Hourglass at which point people can still walk away from you. When was the last time you caught more than one person with the stun on the second tick? It just never happens.

  • Lots of areas that could use work, some ideas: decrease the delay between the 2 ticks; increase the slow; add spellvamp / healing over time (akin to Swain R); add damage over time.

Final thoughts

  • Alternatively, I think Morgana gameplay could use an overhaul, her character has a lot of potential, the Black Angel / Vengeful Spirit / Succubus persona is a rich and popular thematic, and Morgana doesn't quite deliver this fantasy.
  • For example, R should be a death sentence, you only have a couple seconds to escape death itself, with a small music similar to Jhin R, and if you don't manage to escape your death, you are "judged" similar to Garen R Demacian Justice followed by some big debuff/effect/damage/something cool.
GD Reaper14 votes

Actually just the other day I landed a 2 or 3 man ultimate as support Morgana as the other team tried to run from a losing 5v5 fight, as the people I stunned were just running into their inhib turret. If people follow up, and especially if you aren't getting focused too hard, it's easy to get a decent one or two man stun that can potentially win a teamfight.

KylerEzraStar3 votes

So often I flash or simply walk into their team, then Soul Shackles/item 3157 into a team fight and win the fight for my team. Their back line has to fall back and try to reengage while we munch their front line, or risk being stunned themselves. If nothing else, I blow up to 5 flashes on the enemy team. I personally love her ultimate and do feel like it realizes that clutch of death fantasy.

MisterHealYoGirl5 votes

Kayle and Morgana are on the rework watchlist as an item.

Carnicore7 votes

On the topic of animations: Does the Randuin active animation match the effect? It looks really slow, but I'm pretty sure it affects the whole area instantly.

RiotMeddler7 votes

Yeah, it's instant.

Lord Desert4 votes

Meddler, I beginn to worry about you! First the date and now:

We've seen a number of struggling Cho'gaths after the 7.5 changes,

The ChoGath change was done in 7.4, not 7.5. Meddler, no need to ask for help, I'm always there for you if you need it! :P

RiotMeddler4 votes

Oops, yep. That's one of the costs of this style of quick, frequent, less formal post - less proofreading.

Spice POWAH3 votes

I think he ran out of coffee, guys

Sahn Uzal3 votes

Yo Meddler, what do you guys think about the Korean ''Fighter GP build'' Where one takes Grasp as a Keystone, and builds Steraks, Titanic Hydra and some Lethality after Trinity Force.

I do enjoy the playstyle, and I'm wondering if you guys think it's out of line, if it's fine or if you simply haven't looked into it enough to give a reliable opinion.

beany4 votes

I'm no meddler but that build doesn't seem as out of line as stuff like tank fizz and ekko, in fact steraks and triforce is an intended item combo. I guess it depends on the risk reward ratio as compared to a crit build, but even then GPs have avoided crit anyway since it leaves them squishy.

Sahn Uzal3 votes

Meh, Tank Fizz/Ekko would build Straight tank, with an Iceborn, Sunfire, other raw tank items. Relying on Grasp for their damage output. Then the Bruiser Fizz and Ekko builds came around, relying on Fervor, and building Trinity Force into Tank items.

Gangplank builds Trinity, Steraks and Titanic Hydra into Lethality items and/or a Mortal Reminder. This is still way squishier than those 2 and GP simply is not as Mobile. He still relies on Items for his damage output rather than relying on a Keystone.

If it's out of line, it's not as bad as those 2.

Then again, I am a Gangplank main. I hesitate with relying on my own judgement to consider the build balanced or not since I simply might be biased. Which is why I am asking Meddlers opinion.

RiotMeddler8 votes

It's not on our radar, as far as I know though we don't have any current concerns around GP builds that go for a mix of defense and offense.

robotmaster3 votes

Anything for crit marksmen? Or do you think they are in an ok spot?

Yadid3 votes

The focus for 2017 published in January sounded like this year is one of internal improvements across the board. A small list of mentioned considerations/changes were masteries, SR's makeover allowing for more map art, more mini-reworks, and more dialogue with the community, among other things. This approach, shifting to quality over quantity, has shown in the release of 2 VGU's before the next champion release. In a world where League of Legends has over 130+ champions, is it reasonable to expect a move towards pumping out more VGU's than champions this year?

Keep on keepin' on. :)

P.S. Woot! Possible Liss buffs.

Joonas3 votes

I know you didn't mention Rengar in this post, but there is a Rengar nerf on the pbe which seems like the one who came up with that has never played Rengar before. Rengar has problems with his health when full clearing, and this just seems like you are going in for the kill. You are nerfing his weakest point and it's not making a lot of sense. Could you clarify/explain why you went with this decision?

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

Riot tends to focus on making champions Weakness more noticeable when nerfing (I.e Rengar's sore clear) and making champions strengths more clear when buffing them (I.e Jinx's Rockets + Runaan's combo).

Skias3 votes

Need to bring Wardens back into play bot. More Taric/Braum.

v good pupper3 votes

Is it likely we'll see a communication pass on Nasus? Even just an armor shred indicator on his E would do wonders for communicating his power to his opponents. Currently he has a lot of stat based power with no indicators.

Arkadije953 votes

Posts now have sequels? But you know that you cant just slap a 2 and call it a sequel, you need a edgy and cool name like Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 3 Return of The Meddler or Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 3 The Morgana Strikes Back. Speaking of sequels, do you have any plans for Jarvan 4 A New Hope? I like Jarvan a lot, but he is kinda meh, I mean all he does is flag and drag. And his model is weird.

Ensorcell2 votes

I love the idea of a Lissandra buff, especially since i just started to play her much more recently because of this "pseudo-assassin" meta

dome0252 votes

@Meddler

Have you plans to make Tahm´s and Yorick´s life a bit easier? I mean with it that they could get some buffs/adjustments. Like Tahm being able to devour bigger monsters if he has 3 stacks of his passive on that monster. And for Yorick´s ult not being focused as first from the tower (towers focus the maiden over minions). If that is to much for Yorick, it could be compensated with lowering the damage which the maiden deals to towers.

Can´t think of more champions which could need such adjustments at the moment.


If you gonna rework Sona at some point in the future (I don´t think that she is that high on the rework list). Are you gonna try to give her a kit which let the player feel like he is playing a melody? For example a passive which rewards you for using your skills and autoattacks in a certain tact and buying cdr will change the tact pattern.

RavenHusky2 votes

Anything in the works for Lux? I personally would love for her shield projectile to either go out faster, or not hang out at max range for so long so that she can get her double shield sooner.

Bisaknosp2 votes

agreed her w doesnt feel the least bit satisfying definitely needs some work

iahim983 votes

that was actually an intended old nerf, where they also added the w shield to be stacked, so if shes weak they can prob just revert that clunkiness of w

D2Vincent2 votes

Anything for Karthus by chance? I really feel his W is what's keeping him back and it could use some love.

Carnicore2 votes

Is Jax's E AoE size going to be made clearer?

Adalvar2 votes

Any specific direction for Lissandra passive? Will these changes entail simple numbers changes or a new effect all together?

Lord Desert2 votes

Ah also since you guys look a Cho's W, do you will/already have looked at his Q Hitbox? To me it is way off from what it should be, what do you think about it? I will shamelessly direct to a bugreport of mine here, if you have never heard of what im talking about. You actually could have read/heard about it before, but just to be safe :D

IICrowII2 votes

Re: Lissandra

One thing that really stands out to me about Lissandra is that her champion spotlight claims right in the description that she is a "mana-efficient mage", when in reality, she is in my experience the single champion most likely to have to recall due to being out of mana.

Failog1 votes

Meddler, you haven't respond to any post about the Aatrox rework.

What kind of cowardice is this? We are laying out math and logic about why the rework was asinine and you are conveniently quiet.

Who was in charge of the rework? How did you guys manage to basically ignore everything Aatrox mains have been suggesting or complaining about for the past 2 years when you made these changes?

TimX24968B3 votes

who's aatrox?

SteelMankind1 votes

Any update on the Lissandra buffs?

ZenixPanzer1 votes

Meddler I know I'm being a bit biased since I main shen but I just don't see how you can nerff shens ult shen sacrifices a ult that can help him 1v1 putting him at a 1v1 disadvantage against most champs shens reason for play is his ability to help his team and without the impact of his ult shen would most likely leave the meta completely

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