Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 18

RiotMeddler·Jul 18, 2017·1 votes·73,722 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Duskblade

Context in a previous post for anyone that missed it about how we'll be hotfixing more often now: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/qXAN1k8U-quick-gameplay-thoughts-july-14

We put out a hotfix to Duskblade yesterday, taking some damage off it. Compared to champion balance it tends to be harder to get a quick read on things with a more systemic effect like items, hence this balance hotfix being quite a bit after the patch compared to what you'd expect for an individual character (needed the extra time over the weekend to make a better assessment). We'll be continuing to work on Duskblade in 7.15 at least as well, with the damage nerf not expected to be a final solve but instead just taking the edge off. Making the slow melee only's the likely first step, we're also considering lowering the damage again for ranged at least as well. Call on that will depend in part on how the somewhat nerfed version now on live performs.

The intent with that ranged damage nerf wouldn't be to make Duskblade unusable on ranged champions, but instead to make it appropriately powerful on them. Items like Duskblade should be reasonable fits on ranged AD caster champs, not just AD melee, so the issue is we believe not that they're using it in the first place, but that it's too effective on them comparatively.

Kayn

Still watching Kayn, doesn't look like he'll need any balance changes in 7.15. Player performance on him continues to improve as people get more experience, with a lot of the early failures starting to disappear now. We'll take another look in 7.16, looking in particular to see if things have stabilized enough to give a better read on assassin performance versus darkin performance (assassin's been lower, but we believe has been climbing more, so want to see how each form levels out, not just their comparative starting points). 7.15 will contain a number of bug fixes though for various bits and pieces on him.

Additional 7.15 balance changes

Looking at how the jungle meta's changed/champs have performed we've got a few late changes coming in for 7.15:

Cho - Now too strong (buffs went too far). We'll be cutting some of the flat damage and % damage off E as a result (current numbers in testing: 20-60 and 3% instead of 20-80 and 4%). We did consider hotfix nerfing Cho along with Singed and Nunu, but concluded his state wasn't getting out of line as quickly and his counters were clearer.
Lee Sin/RekSai - We'll be pulling the nerfs to these two we've had in testing, at least from 7.15. Goal with them was to open up jungle options more, we're already seeing shifts more towards tank junglers (in part driven by Cinderhulk changes) so belief is these nerfs made sense in the previous context but arguably don't at present. Will revisit after seeing where 7.15 lands.

312 Comments

patmax17Jul 18, 201731 votes

Just chiming in to thank you again for these posts you make, it's useful and interesting to know what reasonings are behind the changes that go (or don't go) on PBE :)

RiotMeddlerJul 18, 201716 votes

Thank you.

Wukong AirlinesJul 18, 201726 votes

@Meddler, why were Udyr changes fully reverted for the second time? will he be receiving different updates?

and will MonkeyKing receive any number changes/ passive update or rework in the near future?

RiotMeddlerJul 18, 20176 votes

We don't yet have enough confidence in the Udyr direction, in particular how much he should/shouldn't be split pushed focused. Needs more discussion and testing, particularly if it's to be released in this period.

Nothing currently planned for Wukong. Would like to do some work on him at some point, not a current priority versus some other champions though.

Nexus4IIJul 19, 20176 votes

Wukong is not a priority ?

Come on, he's been in an awful state since his release, and you know it, even the spotlight build and the presented way of playing is completely random.

6 years already and not a single tweak whatsoever, aatrox got released way later and got an already very healthy mini rework and another one is planned.

I don't see how funny it is to get completely cockblocked by 99% of the matchups, even players with a lower elo can completely stop you from doing anything.

And please don't use that bullshit excuse of "high winrate" when no wukong otp can get over diamond 1.

Please do something, we're tired of waiting, we were expecting the divers rework, but now we're just suffering more.

KoriosJul 18, 201716 votes

Dear Meddler, I have a concern about manamune. After the rework of Yorick, Urgot, the champions that use this item and its upgrade have significantly decreased. The only examples I can think of right now is Ezreal and Jayce. Please we need an update for this item (not necessarily a removal) or at least new champions that benefit from it.

Thanks,

RiotMeddlerJul 18, 201711 votes

Seems worth some work at some point, don't think it's terrible if it remains fairly niche provided it's got some core users it has interesting, healthy impacts on.

pallascedarJul 18, 20175 votes

As a very mediocre player that loves playing Ez: It feels like Ezreal is the only one that actually builds manamune because it seems that Jayce synergizes so much better with lethality items right now. As a casual player who doesn't know very much about balance, I can only say that it feels really crappy to utilize a lead in lane to buy tear, and it feels even crappier when you're behind in lane.

It feels like tear/manamune needs something that makes it feel less bad on Ez, even if it doesn't get any direct power. For an Ez related question: is the long term goal to continue to balance him around Manamune and it being and important part of his build? Or is a better balance long-term direction to balance him around similar items that other ADCs use?

iahim98Jul 18, 20177 votes

How about giving muramana a toggle, for it to also deal damage to monsters/minions, maybe towers too? It might not make the item more popular, but would be a nice kinda buff, as it lost some pushing/objective power when the toggle was removed.

DCYOUNG888Jul 18, 20175 votes

So in other words, you want muramana to (mostly) function like it did before patch 6.4 correct?

AhristocatsJul 18, 201716 votes

i'm just curious about Malphite Yorick buffs being reverted is it because the balance team changed their mind and found those champions strong?

also you buffed a lot of mages for competition, but Karthus legit didn't show in competition since 4 years now? i don't know when was the last time he got picked, karthus is strong in organised play yet isn't picked don't you find it strange?

RaxistaichoJul 18, 20179 votes

He'd just get tower-dived repeatedly by the enemy jungler in organized competitive play.

AhristocatsJul 18, 20171 votes

yeah but 4 years ago in 2013, his kit was the same with the same weakness so why would he stop being picked

SeriouszombieJul 18, 20177 votes

Because new and reworked champions get faster and stronger, and Karthus literally can't keep up.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 18, 20178 votes

Better divers and team fight mages have come around.

RiotMeddlerJul 18, 20179 votes

Malph - Doubt the changes would accomplish their goal of seeing Malph get niche pro play as a counter to a couple of champs (Jax/Irelia, who aren't played much either), while potentially being inappropriate for regular play.

Yorick - Want more time to see how the previous changes impact him. Slow probably too large a buff as well. Some return of similar changes at some point likely.

Karthus - Would like to see him in organized play, can't afford to buff him given his strength in regular play however.

Sandmann LeoJul 18, 201712 votes

Im curious about Azir , have you already chosen a direction for him?

RiotMeddlerJul 18, 201712 votes

We're testing a reduced ranges but same skills kit at present, with some compensatory buffs given range reduction's a sizeable power hit otherwise. Showing some promise, uncertain if it goes far enough is the risk (so better game health wise, but is it better enough?).

DeathBurstJul 18, 201713 votes

I was expecting this direction, given the tone of previous messaging around Azir, but I'm still disappointed.

Short range mobile play-makers are plentiful, long range magic DPS are not, and the Soldiers positioning and damage patterns were unique. Sure, the first solution is more fun and lead to more youtube montage, as was said in a previous Red Post, but I firmly believe the second option would be better for the game in the long run. It could be your way to add diversity in the Bot Lane, among other things.

CosnirakJul 18, 201713 votes

As far as I know the only non broken damage patterns at long range are either dodgable and windowed (cd based) damage, or very low damage. Which leaves him being either extremely similar to existing artillery mages (and very different from how he is now) or he has to do very low but consistent damage which makes him extremely aggravating to play against (like a gnat) and unsatisfying to play as. Super safe and consistent wave clear leaves room for little else in a kit and makes for awful gameplay.

RiotMeddlerJul 19, 201711 votes

Quick update: We got some more in depth analysis back on Kayn sooner than predicted which is showing a bigger performance difference between Assassin and Darkin than we'd like. We'll be buffing Assassin a bit after all in 7.15 as a result (higher AD ratio on the R).

Shadow HazardJul 19, 20172 votes

is it an issue of darkin being op and the assassin form being UP or is the darkin form looking relatively healthy while the assassin form alone is what is dragging down the stats from the analysis?

RiotMeddlerJul 19, 20176 votes

Darkin might prove to be a bit strong eventually, that's speculated longer term performance rather than a current issue. Looks like Assassin could do with some help though regardless of whether we need to take some off Darkin or not at some point.

Shadow HazardJul 19, 20172 votes

I point someone made on reddit, is to allow the assassin's form damage amp to apply to all damage coming from kayn. So that would include damages like duskblade, sheen, thunderlords for example. I think that is a good mechanical buff to consider going for before upping skill damage numbers.

RiotMeddlerJul 19, 20178 votes

Just checked with the team, that's one of the bug fixes we've got coming too in 7.15. Periodic and Proc damage were set to not be amped which blocked benefit with a range of items, masteries, buffs from other champions etc.

Linna ExcelJul 19, 20172 votes

Meddler, how easy is it for you guys to get data on a champ like Kayn because he's got those 2 forms and he has the issue where he needs to evolve to get there?

RiotMeddlerJul 19, 20174 votes

Bit harder, needed some different data collection hooks than normal. It's not just statistics though that's used for changes like this, lot of direct observation, assessment, following discussions etc as well.

ƒrostγJul 18, 20179 votes

@Meddler, about the Lissandra changes: Why you guys simply can't lower the cost on her Q in the early levels? 85 mana is waay too much for an ability that has short range, has low cooldown and pretty low damage as well.

Make it something like : 65/70/75/85/90. This would help her a lot in the laning phase, while she'd still have to manage her reserves carefully later in the game.

And one more thing, is someone working on her passive changes or that project is scrapped?

RiotMeddlerJul 18, 20179 votes

The teams goals with the current changes were to buff her CSing, her AA harass in lanes where that's relevant and to give her a bit more mana in later game teamfights. That translated into base AD and mana/level.

No work currently being done on her passive. We'll take another swing at it someday, working on other champs now instead however.

loli nukesJul 18, 20178 votes

do you think rengar will be one of the junglers to receive small buffs towards next weeks patch? Seems much weaker even with lethality buffs after all the nerfs.

RiotMeddlerJul 18, 20178 votes

Unlikely, he's risky to buff at his current strength and 7.14 lethality item changes have likely been good to him.

Tiniest TurtleJul 18, 20177 votes

Wasn't there going to be some sort of post talking about upcoming reworks this week?

RiotMeddlerJul 18, 201712 votes

Should be out tomorrow around 11am PST.

DeadUnbornJul 18, 20174 votes

Calling it now, one of the characters announced for VGUs will be Swain. Noxus and him have had a lot of attention received lately in terms of character references, which leads me to believe he will be next. Also right after stealth was worked out Eve was queued up for a rework, because they go hand by hand. It is the same now with transformations (Kayn) and him. That is my theory at least

IF a second character is announced it will probably be either Nunu or Mordekaizer. I'm split on this one because in one hand Riot will probably try to switch up the reworks from gloomy characters to something more cheery. On the other hand Morde if I remember currently is/had a lot of his bugs being looked into. This work could either be compensatory because he is not getting a rework in a while or could had came as part of an exploration in pre production.

Either way I applaud Riot from shifting focus on new characters to doing reworks. It was really wasteful to "spend" kit ideas that could had been used on already loved characters that rarely see play

Sir NopeJul 18, 20176 votes

Hey Meddler, speaking of item changes:

Has there been any noticable improvments for AS champs after Thornmail gor altered?

Is there a reason that Thornmail now has Cold Steel, besides the fact it builds out of Warden's Mail? Cold Steel is somewhat counter-productive to the item, though I understand that punishing AS focus is no longer the item's intent.

RiotMeddlerJul 18, 20176 votes

Cold Steel's on there so that combining Thormail with other items with that passive's less optimal.

As above no current reaction plans to Thornmail/its impacts in 7.15, but plans to watch it closely in 7.16.

big boi edriJul 18, 20176 votes

Any word on Wukong? He's doing ok just surviving lane and grabbing duskblade for deleting some carries, but he's just outdated.

Perhaps a possibility to do some work on his passive, or even out his power spike on ult? The jump from level 1-2 ult is drastic.

RaxistaichoJul 18, 20173 votes

Hey, did you ever get a word on what was holding up the Ahri/Amumu icons?

RiotMeddlerJul 18, 20175 votes

Artist working on them's on some other work that's higher priority. Icon updates slower than expected as a result. Possible we don't do Ahri's in the end (debated benefit versus live ones), with Amumu, Renekton and Mundo looking like most likely upcoming icon improvements.

Moonboy65Jul 18, 20172 votes

don't discard the Ahri icons pls, also what happened to Nunu?

RiotMeddlerJul 18, 20174 votes

I'll pass on the feedback, this one's an artist call rather than a game design one though, so I'm more playing messenger here. Nunu still likely, forgot about him, but have seen some draft icons that were being worked on.

DeathBurstJul 18, 20172 votes

What are you trying to do with Mundo, what's your goal?

The E cost being applied only if you actually use the attack is a nice QoL but pretty low impact, if I had to guess.
The W active cost change (now reverted) is... perplexing. What did you hope with it, when you first tested it?
The W passive against Magic damage is unexpected. Buffs are always appreciated, but Mundo doesn't seem to be the Juggernaut struggling the most against Mages.

RiotMeddlerJul 18, 20176 votes

Primary goal is to try and give more of a niche by doubling down on his role as a tanky dude who's good into heavy magic damage teams.

DeathBurstJul 18, 201713 votes

"Doubling down"? I didn't realize that was already the case. No sarcasm intended, for me Mundo was just a Generally Tanky Dude, not especially good against heavy AP Comp.

What made him specifically good against Magic Damage in his previous iteration?

AisleJul 18, 20177 votes

It's general knowledge that he's great into magic damage.

He loves SV and most magic users don't have enough DPS to outdamage his R.

HäxelJul 18, 20178 votes

Mundo is especialy weak vs Grivious Wounds users obviusly. If you compare the items (togethert wtih having in mind mundo is used a sa toplaner or jungeler): Executioners Calling: Cheap item, works with every auto and good with any ad users. New item Bramble Vest: Cheap Item, works good with tanks fighting vs other guys. Morellonomicon: Expenisve, Cdr/MANA Item, that works just with magic Damage and under the threshhold of 35% health. Mage enemys on Top? Main threats Rumbel and Vlad are no Manausers. Even if Manausers like Lissandra or Sawin fight him, they need to get below the 35% health. Mages in the Jungel? Elise, Nida, Fiddel adn Evelyy tend not to get Morellos cause they get their mana with the Jungle Item. Conclusion: Mundo is far better vs Mages as vs Tanks or especialy Fighters/Adcs. With the new Passive considering most Tanks deal a bunch of magic dmg too he will be now even better s both, Mages and Tanks.

Edit: Seriously, Mundo vs Swain is like in totaly favour for Mundo: he could buy a bramble vest, 2 pots and Spirit Visage, increase his healing and decrease the enemys healing while Swain has a Tear and Morellos. Not only is morellos far worse than bramble (sure, Swain could not try to autoattack mundo but than he exchanges dmg for healingpower), but also he can runs out of mana easier. if one or both have ignite ofc it gets trickier but well...

Valor BotJul 18, 20172 votes

Wouldn't "anti-magic juggernaut" be a better niche for Garen? You know, since he's Demacian and all. Thematically at least, making Dr. Mundo the juggernaut you pick against heavy AP teams doesn't really seem like a natural fit.

HäxelJul 18, 20174 votes

Scroll up for the Gameplayanswer. As far as "thematically" things like that shoulnd't be much going into balanceupdates. But i can answer this too: Why should garen as a Demcian be good Vs Mages? These Guys normaly don't have Magic and for this reason, they built Galio to protect them for Magic. Garen fought enemies like Urgot, Darius and Sion. Yes, kata too. But she's an assassin who deals magic dmg, not a mage. Now on Dr: Mundos case he experimented far wtih Chemicals and his own Body and in his Image a syringe sticks still in his body. For this he could accidentally gained more magic resist during his experiments (he could shot it himself purposly even too)