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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 23

RiotMeddler··1 votes·65,446 views

Morning all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped.

If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


More Icon Updates

Following on from last week's post we'll likely be updating at least another couple of champs moderately soon in addition to Ahri/Amumu. Nunu's likely, as is Mundo. Additionally if there are other champs you think particularly need an icon update do let us know, would love to get wider feedback on that.

We'll also be looking to update some older non champ icons as well, with Red/Blue/Baron buff likely starting points.


Some 7.11 Balance Context

  • Zyra - we'll be pulling the Zyra changes out of 7.11 now that they've had enough testing for us to get a good understanding about them. We think those changes (lower plant health early game, but more seeds) have the potential to make laning against Zyra feel fairer for her opponents. At the same time though lack of laning fairness isn't currently an issue we're trying to solve for Zyra and there's risk this has unintended power impacts. We might revisit the changelist at some point, won't be doing anything with it or Zyra right now however.

  • Syndra and Ahri - Both have nerfs being tested for 7.11. It's possible those don't make it in for 7.11 however. Expect them to be in 7.12 instead if so.

  • Zac - We hotfixed Zac yesteday, taking some damage out of his Q after our changes in 7.10 overbuffed him. We'll be looking at him in 7.11 as well. One change we're testing right now is having his E warning indicator appear slightly earlier (E+R combo reliability's looking too high now with the increased knockup duration on E when charged). Possible other changes get included as well, need to see where the hotfix puts him and how he does over the next few days.


Scoreboard CS tracking cleanup

We'll be making it so small player summoned minions killed aren't counted in the scoreboard (tab screen). Goal there is to make comparison of different champions's farm more accurate, whereas at present laning against someone who's throwing out a lot of small minions can make that a misleading statistic. Minions that will be affected:

  • Regular Heimer turrets
  • Shaco boxes
  • Illaoi tentacles
  • Zyra plants
  • Yorick Ghouls and W
  • Malz voidlings

Runes and Masteries

We mentioned a couple of times that we were looking to do some work on both Runes and Masteries this year and that we'd be talking about that well in advance. That's still the plan and we should be getting some conversation going on that pretty soon, starting with our thoughts on what good pre-game systems like those for LoL should look like.


Riven and Renekton animation changes

In the last couple of patches we've had some behind the scenes changes to Riven and Renekton that were intended to address some bugs with them and make them queue spells consistently. Both sets of changes had some unintended impacts however that we'll be addressing as follows:

  • Renekton - Reverting all changes
  • Riven - Keeping changes that gave Q cancel consistent timing (as opposed to random within a small range) and allow E to be properly queued after Q/W (no timing changes). Fixing a bug where Q3 knockup got slightly longer (around 0.1s).

347 Comments

Glory to God38 votes

Additionally if there are other champs you think particularly need an icon update do let us know, would love to get wider feedback on that.

JAX! Ahem... Jax. His icons have absolutely no sense.

My Heartshaker14 votes

I agree.

His passive has a picture of him fishing. I mean when does he go fishing? Is fishing supposed to increase attack speed?

Sir Nope5 votes

Funny that, he got a skin for that icon.

But yeah, Jax needs an icon update at the least.

VagueMan6 votes

Yes please!

I found these on artstation, and have been thinking about a jax updated icons

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/8ZqRn

Godrekton29 votes

Hey Meddler, we the Renekton community were told W cancels would be coming back within the next update/patch. W being cancelled by R is known to be coming back as it was available before 7.8 but what about Tiamat? Tiamat used to cancel W back in early season 6 and before but this feature was removed in the undocumented W changes for Renekton sometime around 6.11. Anyways we were told it would becoming back but as you specifically state you're reverting changes to the 7.8 state will that still mean we will not get it? One of the Rioters we have talked to in our Renekton mains community Discord said it would be coming back and that Tiamat is "the animation cancelling item" he quoted meaning it is pretty much intended to do things like this for champions such as Renekton and Riven. So if this is the case will it cancel W and not just double cast it? with it being a "animation cancel" it must also remove the lock timer during the cast, I felt like I need to mention this because one of the Rioters who informed us that it was in patch 7.10 was quite incorrect as it is just a double cast which you're still locked in the W cast time. Also thank you for reverting those horrid changes but maybe you could some how give us the E QoL changes back some time in the close future?

TLDR: Will W Tiamat be added back in as we were told it was coming back and with it being a "cancel" will it remove the stun lock timer too? Also will you consider adding back the E QoL changes?

TheBossVeigar20 votes

How about some icon updates for Veigar ? His icons are a bit outdated.

z040258119 votes

OMG Feedback for who needs icon updates?! My time to shine.

Tier 1 (Needs update ASAP) Veigar Blitzcrank Janna Malphite Udyr Nocturne MonkeyKing Volibear Olaf Renekton Jax

Tier 2 (Needs update, but sufficient) Pantheon Ezreal XinZhao Swain Irelia JarvanIV LeeSin Rumble Vayne Orianna Leona Riven Shyvana

Tier 3 (Fine, but updated quality would be nice) Ziggs Nautilus Lulu Hecarim Varus Draven Jayce Syndra Khazix Elise Zed Nami Vi Thresh

Other (You guys updated one ability icon and forgot about the rest) Caitlyn (Updated Passive) Darius (Updated Passive) Graves (Updated Q)

The Traveled17 votes

So if you feel like updating some icons how about Veigar ? He is among the older champions and has some old looking icons that I feel could use an update.

Qiyana is SO HOT16 votes

Hey Meddler is the item 3812 +item 3046 stacking on you guys radar? Right now that combo is making certain champions feel completely overbearing with how much damage those items are allowing them to soak while still putting out massive amounts of damage examples being Draven and Graves. Is this somthing you guys are looking at?

Necroside14 votes

Dear Meddler....

You haven't told us any thoughts on Veigar at all in terms of gameplay balance, so I hope it's not too much to ask if Veigar players can have a set of updated icons? Please and thank you.

Maelstro3 votes

Papa bless dad Necroside

logged in to upvote and comment

papa bless

Sinful Sorcerer14 votes

Veigar ability icons update would be sweet! :)

Zerenza13 votes

Hey are you guys looking into any changes for Diana? Her winrate is abysmal right now at 45% with a 1% playrate, i had a thread on it in gameplay that got a lot of feedback about it.

The abyssal scepter changes and MR per level changes hit her really hard and since 7.5 her winrate has continually been dropping.

Edit/PS: I'm really hyped for the next two reworks and i have high hopes, VGU's have been incredible lately.

Morphir6 votes

It's true that we need them to show Diana some love Diana

excaliburate5 votes

I agree, ugh please help Diana out!! I understand she is sort of a balance nightmare and a feast/famine champ, so are riot just waiting for the Diver class update to sort her kit out? I feel like she might since her E was buffed to suit her being more of a diver champ with set ups. I mean on the Diana mains reddit page, there's some good ideas for Diana changes, you should check it out !!! item 3070 Diana

Impish Yordle11 votes

As far as outdated champion ability icons go: Jax Janna Udyr Volibear Swain Blitzcrank Ezreal Nunu JarvanIV Rumble Malphite Riven Irelia Olaf Veigar Nocturne Vayne Pantheon Graves (except his Q)

As far as outdated item icons go: item 3115 item 3101item 1052 item 1026 item 1018 item 1042 item 3123 item 3022 item 3108 item 1011 item 1057 item 3027 item 3222 item 3078 item 3086 item 3117 item 3024 item 1054 item 1027 item 2009 item 2052 item 1033 item 1055 item 1058 (among others)

Xeranis Azourael11 votes

{quoted}

More Icon Updates

Additionally if there are other champs you think particularly need an icon update do let us know, would love to get wider feedback on that.

We'll also be looking to update some older non champ icons as well...


Relatively speaking, Ahri's icons are fine, in contrast to the champs below.

Ability Icons that need an update:

Jax ← (Worst offender, TBH)

Amumu; DrMundo; Pantheon; Renekton; Swain

  • Amumu [Besides over all image quality, Passive & R/Ult specifically lack clarity.]
  • Mundo [Besides over all image quality, R/Ult specifically lacks clarity.]
  • Pantheon [Besides over all image quality, E & R/Ult specifically lack clarity.]
  • Renekton [Besides over all image quality - most especially R/Ult - Dominus {which got left un-updated when the other spells got updated}, W & R/Ult specifically lack clarity.]

(Clarity-wise, not Quality): [Some semblance of spell-targeting, or snapshot of spell animation, on the icon] Olaf; Thresh; Veigar; XinZhao

  • Thresh [Specifically E & R/Ult]

(Quality-wise, not Clarity): Blitzcrank; Malphite; Nunu; Riven; Udyr; Volibear

... (Coincidentally, about half of the champs above are either the ones usually forgotten by Riot, or are overshadowed by more popular/newer champs..)


Item Icons that need an update: (Image Quality/Art Style, more so than Artifact Appearance)

item 1001item 3117item 3047item 3111item 3158 item 3006 item 3009 item 3020 item 1026; item 1011; item 1058; item 3101; item 3115; item 3155; item 3086; item 3100; item 3116; item 3041; item 3077; item 3026 (The worst offenders): item 3091; item 3078

[Edit: Shortened, since people hate linebreaks so much.. (¬_¬) ]

[Edit 2: I'm well aware that Guardian Angel has a new icon on the PBE, but I included it anyway, for posterity. Same reason for champs that are on the Rework list.]

Maelstro3 votes

I would love to see an updated triforce icon, it has so much potential to look really epic and clean based on its concept

Spideraxe9 votes

Hey Meddler is when is the updated subclass list happening

RiotMeddler19 votes

Last I heard tomorrow. Will let you folks know if that changes.

duchainzz8 votes

Janna's icons could use some updates if you ask me

Murrph8 votes

I'm seeing that Veigar has outdated icons, and us Veigar mains are itching for new ones that fit the thematic of the updated map and game overall. Make it happen, please!

Hoosakiwi7 votes

@meddler, so glad to hear that the Zyra changes won't be going through to live.

As a mid Zyra main, it was very frustrating that Riot wanted to make changes around an RNG passive. In future, it would be great if the team could consider how potential changes might impact Zyra mid lane as well as Zyra support & communicate how potential patch updates may impact her presence in both roles. As a player, it feels like you guys just forget about Zyra mid players and it kind of sucks :(

P0IS0N IVY7 votes

Thank god those Zyra changes got removed.

No one wants to play with even more rng.

Raxistaicho6 votes

What about Orianna?

RiotMeddler9 votes

If you mean balance wise, then no changes currently planned.

If you mean icons wise then thanks for the call out.

Queš6 votes

Hey Meddler.I think Jax needs icon update (look at his passive XD).Also what about botrk ? Isnt it ok on melee champs but very strong on ranged because of how much damage it gives( I dont think LS nerf will make it less valiuable for adc honestly).

Also what do you think about Jax right now ? Because he just feels like a worse version of Fiora.He is meant to be 1v1 champ/splitpusher/lategame champ but Fiora just outshines him in every of that aspect honestly.Do you think he can use Reksai level update ?

PopePancake6 votes

Pls update icons for Veigar he reallys needs it imo.Swain too if possible.

Evelyn Endwise5 votes

Hi Meddler, do you have some context on the PBE changes to Caitlyn's Base AS/Attack Delay nerf? You mentioned that we'd be getting the Runaan interaction nerf, but this nerf went unmentioned and seems quite impactful as well, particular if shipped at the same time.

RiotMeddler6 votes

Conclusion was that the Hurricane change alone wouldn't be enough to bring Caitlyn in line, in particular her late game sustained damage being too high for a champion with that much safety and utility.

Numbers on the PBE are more extreme than what we're likely to ship however. We'll likely be going with 0.543 base AS and 15% bonus AS at level 1, rather than the 0.521 and 10% previously in testing.

Lightbreaker3 votes

{quoted}

Conclusion was that the Hurricane change alone wouldn't be enough to bring Caitlyn in line, in particular her late game sustained damage being too high for a champion with that much safety and utility.

Numbers on the PBE are more extreme than what we're likely to ship however. We'll likely be going with 0.543 base AS and 15% bonus AS at level 1, rather than the 0.521 and 10% previously in testing.

As a cait player, I have to ask, don't you think the hurricane/headshot interaction removal will be enough? What's the reasoning to nerf her beyond that right now, without testing that alone first? Or rather, WHY don't you think the hurricane/headshot interation removal will be enough?

Jeedos4 votes

{quoted}

Conclusion was that the Hurricane change alone wouldn't be enough to bring Caitlyn in line, in particular her late game sustained damage being too high for a champion with that much safety and utility.

Numbers on the PBE are more extreme than what we're likely to ship however. We'll likely be going with 0.543 base AS and 15% bonus AS at level 1, rather than the 0.521 and 10% previously in testing.

I don't really understand why her base attack speed needs to be so damn low in the first place. Can't they just revert it back to say 0.625 and only +1% per level (like how Jinx scales with attack speed).

With 13.5 from runes, 4 from masteries, Caitlyn's attack speed would be:

  • Level 1 0.73
  • Level 9 (with boots): 1.000
  • Level 13 (with Statikk + boots): 1.265
  • Level 18 (with Statikk RFC + boots): 1.484
  • Level 18 BASE 0.846 (if you want to calculate Runaans or PD or both, just add +5-15% of 0.625 on top of 1.484)

Plus, even though Caitlyn rightly needs nerfing, her lategame damage isn't the issue. It's her earlygame dominance and ability to waveclear reliably, which is what the Runaans nerf was all about.

(Some history about Caitlyn's base attack speed for those who don't know):

  • Release - Patch 3.X 0.668 + 3% per level
  • 3.X until S6 Preseason 0.625 + 4% per level
  • 6.1 - 7.11 0.568 + 4% per level

The overriding philosophy of all these changes has been to continually nerf Caitlyn's ability to exploit attack speed buffs from items and allies (originally the nerf was to stop Caitlyn hitting 2.0 attack speed with PD and Nunu's blood boil before the nerf to his W), I don't object to that, but where does this logic end. Doing the calculations with 0.521 (and the +15, +4 from masteries and +13.5 from runes) Caitlyn will be hitting 0.69 attack speed level one.

  • Level 1: 0.69
  • Level 9 (with boots only): 1.06
  • Level 18 BASE (+4% a level): 1.06
  • Level 18 (with boots, RFC and Statikk): 1.587
  • Level 18 (with boots, PD and Runaans): 1.659

Overall, not a terrible nerf, however, I'm more concerned about that attack animation delay remaining which would be a much bigger nerf than anything Riot have suggested to her attack speed.

My nerf alternative nerf would remove (if Caitlyn will get +15% passively in 7.11) 69% attack speed per level (5.75 daggers costing 1.725k in Caitlyn's base stats), however, she would break even to the proposed 0.521 base attack speed and only begin to touch current live levels of attack speed if she truly does have a team built around her, and we're talking Ardent Censor as a MUST (she'd hit 1.70 with ardent).

Jaycen bOrnn5 votes

Hey Meddler,

Is it too early to give any details about the upcoming LB adjustments?

Cheers

RiotMeddler4 votes

Will let you know when we've got something concrete, we don't have details ourselves yet though.

veigarbage can5 votes

Any idea if Veigar is getting any icon updates? His icons are pretty outdated. IIRC, he hasn't had an icon change ever; his icons are still the same when he was released.

That's also how I feel about Veigar's classic VO, but I don't think that's going anywhere for a long time. Rito can't perform miracles you know.

_for the most part. Galio _

Maelstro4 votes

I definitely think Ryze needs an update to his icons...

KAPPA

For real though, please soup up Veigar's icons (passive in particular, but also q/w/e/r).

Papa bless.

Athenes Lulu4 votes

Will Veigar get an icon update?

He's one of the only last champs to still be using his very original ones, if anything.

EDIT: I forgot my friends were on a march asking for it, looks like I'm late to the party LOL.

Sir Nope3 votes

Hey Meddler, how do you think tank junglers are doing as a whole? I know Zac and Sej are seeing use now, but I'm not seeing a good chunk of the old cast (Voli, Naut, Mao, Mundo, etc)

RiotMeddler5 votes

A bunch of tanks need a bit of help post midseason. We've got changes to some in the next patch (Mundo, Sion, Malph) and will likely work on more the patch after.

beany7 votes

any plans on addressing tanks with decent ap ratios abusing triple doran rings? I don't mind them being buffed elsewhere but that allows them to easily circumvent sustain issues. Naut already got his manacosts nerfed recently because he could do that, but you should address the root issue (stacking rings or the unnecessarily high ratios that are never going to incentivize an ap build)

RiotMeddler5 votes

We've been looking at it, feeling so far is that it's not a problem with Doran's Ring though. Intent is that those can be stacked for early power and there are only two tanks we're seeing stacking DRings that could be concerns, Nautilus and Galio. Galio likely just needs nerfs in general, regardless of build. With Naut the stacking seems ok so far, given he's delaying getting tankier and lacks a fallback pattern anyway so if not casting to push/wave clear doesn't function so well.

Abyssphere3 votes

What's happening to Syndra? She has no nerfs documented on FF@20.

RiotMeddler5 votes

Still figuring out details. Likely to include a W radius nerf to make that somewhat more dodgeable. Ult is also getting a lot of debate.

Overlord Forte5 votes

That'll probably put her back into E 2nd max play style. Have you considered shaving back E's AP ratio back to its original 0.4 value from the buffed 0.5 as well?

Is the ultimate debate about damage numbers, or mechanics?

edit; fixed E's ratio cause I'm dumb

RiotMeddler5 votes

We've got a wide range of viewpoints internally on the ult, though most common points brought up are ability to get to 7 sphere ults reliably (Q duration impacting that) and effectiveness of the ult as a standalone threat.

Overlord Forte11 votes

Can potentially tie the Q passive's +2 seconds to an on hit mechanic, requiring at least 1 sphere to be hit to access the 7th sphere pre-30/35% CDR. This also punishes the ambient stack play style somewhat, though those familiar with 6 second spheres Syndra will not be perturbed by it. May solve two birds with one stone, but I can see art direction problems with figuring out which sphere is a 6 second, or an 8 second, and what W's refresh throw does. Accessibility in this regard is going to be an issue, I think, so figuring out that discussion will help. This'll in turn probably feed into the effectiveness of the ult as a stand alone threat.

I'd generally vote in trying to refrain from affecting the ramp of the ultimate outside of what she used to be Pre-6.9, though. If accessibility becomes more constrained than how it was then (e.g, 4 second sphere life timers, but on hit makes them 8), it'll make her performance swingy and very uncomfortable. I can't see a way of working in that area that isn't a much more steep, potential rework level of kit mechanic redesign.

Light Sovereign2 votes

You're my role model and i hope to be as good as a Syndra player as you.

Overlord Forte4 votes

Ah, wonderful :)

Just keep picking out the little things to practice on, and don't burn out trying to force progress on bad days (cause they'll happen). You'll get up there.

BitterBlossom2 votes

There is a champion that has been forgotten for a long time!

Lux and it is Lux!

I've been visiting Lux's subreddit, and while they (and me) agree that she is bad right now, they (and me too) dont see her ever be good.

They said that her shield is very bad for a midlaner, that she gets pushied too hard for what she does (Syndra at least can R any target and delete it before dieing, lux cant) and her utility isnt remotely as good to counterbalance.

I dont know about the damage, she has some sick one shot potential, but even that is extremely counterable by a QSS.

ALSO, she isnt unique at all, lets be honest, the only key element of her kit is her R, which is good for sure, but the rest of the kit doesnt have any "light" nor uniqueness.

Any plans for her?

Raxistaicho26 votes

She JUST got buffed.

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