Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 12

RiotMeddler·Jan 12, 2018·1 votes·42,920 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Sightstone Changes

As we mentioned earlier in the week we've got changes coming where the support items will give the Sightstone active as a reward. Goal there's to open up support item choice and flexibility, versus the current degree to which that's locked behind an early sightstone purchase. We've seen a number of concerns expressed about that approach, and while we've talked about that in some threads already visibility's been low and/or our plans have got a bit more concrete since. Some related points below as a result:

Overall power level of supports after this change isn't intended to change. If this ends up being a noticeable buff or nerf to the position as a whole we'll adjust things.
Goal is that Sightstones should still become available around the same time in lane. Amount of gold needed to complete the quest has been reduced as a result to keep that timing.
We'll be moving the Frost Queen's and Talisman actives onto new items, with a goal of finding costs and build paths so that they're accessible to both supports and non supports.
We'll be considering something like Face of the Mountain's active for a new item, though aren't as certain about that one. Certainly possible there's a need for a single target (ish) protective item like that that Knight's Vow, Mikael's, Locket don't meet. Purchase rate of FotM has also historically been quite low (versus Eye of Targon), and use of the active lower again. We're less sure that it makes sense to port the active over just like Frost Queen's/Talisman as a result.
Active item CDR on an item might come back at some point. It's a decent concept for an item certainly, in terms of what sort of play it enables and the item choices it creates. Would almost certainly need to be paired with a cap on active item CDR though. The lack of an active item CDR cap's an oversight, given until 7.22 there weren't any other sources, and it's leading to issues balancing items.
The support items won't give the Sightstone active on Twisted Treeline. For now at least they'll continue to have their old rewards on TT instead.

Vision Score on the Scoreboard

On a somewhat related topic we're planning to add vision score to the tab screen as a field that's shown all the time, not just something visible on trinket mouseover. Goal there is to better reflect how important vision is, and how much individual players are contributing to their team via vision/vision removal. Should be in 8.2 or 8.3. That will be much more awareness of vision score than there's been in the past, so possible this also reveals oddities in how it's calculated (e.g. is it overvaluing deep wards versus their actual contribution, or undervaluing killing wards with red trinkets?). Feedback on that sort of stuff much appreciated, whether off vision score as it is on live or after it goes out on the scoreboard as well.

Adaptive Damage Defaults

We'll be taking a look at each champion in terms of whether they get AP or AD by default from adaptive runes if they don't have any of either stat yet. For most champs that's not a problem, because their starting item either lets them define what they're after or there's one stat that's consistently better for them that they're getting already. For some champs though, particularly tankier ones who may never build any AP or AD, or junglers who'd really like a particular stat for their early clears, the current defaults may be problematic.

Our plan is to look at the list of defaults and, if there are any that aren't the appropriate choice at present, change them. We haven't made a list of champs to be changed yet though and I figured this was a really good question to open up widely. If anyone's got thoughts on champs with the wrong adaptive default would love to hear them in the comments here.

https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

300 Comments

HP CrookshanksJan 12, 201813 votes

No thoughts about Ahri's W? It feels really weak and so does Ahri. item 3070 Ahri

KankberryJan 12, 20188 votes

Teemo defaults to AD and I think most Teemo mains would agree he should default to AP.

zippyHDJan 12, 20187 votes

Hello Meddler

Any news about Ryze? Are you guys still planning to rework the ult? or maybe revert the ult and tweaks things around?

And is there any information if this is coming out before or after mid-season?

Much appreciated if you could answer.

RiotMeddlerJan 12, 20185 votes

Still planning to tweak some stuff at some point, no plans to revert to an old ult though. Timing's uncertain, designer who was working on Ryze ended up taking on the later part of Swain's kit development, so he'll be occupied Swain work, both pre and post release, for a bit yet.

Thams Me AbrinJan 12, 20187 votes

So we'll see Twin Shadows and Shurelya's Reverie make a return? Or are you planning on making totally different items with those actives?

RiotMeddlerJan 12, 20188 votes

Not certain yet, just starting to look at that now. Likely to have at least some differences (e.g. build path). How big the differences are will be one of the things that helps decide whether we use the old names or not.

FrankTheBoxMnstrJan 12, 201819 votes

I hope you still keep whatever the item active is searchable with "spooky ghosts" in the shop.

RiotMeddlerJan 12, 201814 votes

Definitely.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJan 12, 20187 votes

What about the passive quest rewards? Like move speed on hitting a spell (I understand if that doesn't come back) and the shield that regenerates after a few seconds on the tank sup. That one especially seems like it would be nice to have on a very tank sup specific item.

Also hoping you can use the new frost queen as a way to fill in What I feel is a hole in sup mage itemization, for someone like bard

K O pischkeJan 12, 20182 votes

I feel like the shield battery would be easy to put as a unique passive on a different tank item. The speed on spell hit though would be though. I feel like it would need to be a new item all together.

ßiggie CheeseJan 12, 20187 votes

Hello Meddler,

Any chance any of the Support items could make a return from BMB? Globe of Trust seems like a suitable replacement for item 3401 .

Ars ArcánumJan 12, 20186 votes

Quinn needs early attack speed as the Domination tree doesn't grant any, as an Assassin- marksman. Maybe shave off some attack speed from her W (from 80 - 60% max rank) for a 10% increase to her base attack speed?

When I play her with Electrocute I feel like I have to start a dagger with how taxing it is.

Cool Guy ObitoJan 12, 20185 votes

Any progress towards Rengar Q yet? Really looking forward to it!

AnonKiwiJan 12, 20185 votes

Hello Meddler,

I am so thankful that we live in a time where riot is so transparent on their patching process, but I think there is a major complaint you haven't addressed.

How will supports who prioritize roaming be effected by this change? I love the freedom that the support role has. I can focus on lane control, invade the enemy jungle, or just let my adc passively farm. It feels bad if the support items are now " here are these 3 ways to play bot lane, you can poke, collect mini game tokens, or melee hit minions", if you don't do that you don't get wards. The quest was cool and fun since it was more like a "bonus" that you got for completing it, but now you HAVE to complete the quest asap just to get your vision up.

I think most of peoples criticisms would be sated if you promised that even supports who roamed would get their sight stone around the same time as it currently is.

Possible solutions would be gold from killing wards counts towards the quest, or maybe assists/kills can count towards the quest.

Thank you for your time.

QuackasJan 12, 20184 votes

Hey Meddlypoo

What's your thoughts on Tahm Kench overriding his self slow with Phase Rush to essentially eat and run turning his opponents into fast food for towers?

TK seems to be over-performing this pre-season, is he on the nerf radar or can I keep abusing him into the foreseeable future?

HalcyonDwellerJan 12, 20183 votes

With you on that. I think it is hilarious that Tahm Kench can do this, but it's also kind of absurd. Seems like a clear abuse of the system, unless Tahm Kench is giving up a significant amount of strength in return for it.

M1A3 AbramsJan 13, 20184 votes

Late to the party here but whatev

Picking and choosing what adaptive stats champs will gain by default isn't a wise move because there's never going to be an objectively optimal choice. Players are always going to run niche playstlyes and builds, and forcing adaptive defaults just serves to reinforce the meta.

My suggestion; when a rune path that would give an AD/AP bonus is picked, give players an option to select their preferred choice of AD or AP. If you think this is a good idea, while you're at it you should consider doing the same for the other stats (HP and AS) so all players can benefit from their preferred stat, rather than a 50/50 split of them.

Thanks for listening.

MishliJan 13, 20184 votes

As it currently stands, I don't feel like the 'vision score' stat should be on the scoreboard. Besides just pointing out who doesn't Ward enough, which isn't hard to see. I feel like, currently, the number is quite arbitrary and doesn't mean enough right now. When someone sees kda, they know exactly what that means, "vision score" is a really vague term that doesn't really mean anything specific

Support PositionJan 13, 20184 votes

As a support main. I hate these changes and you're only making me not want to play support even more.

I'm one of the FEW of my kind that que's support as a MAIN and only role they play. Seems you further love making ADC the only role people want to play or can do anything in the game.

Stop breaking things that are fine to begin with. And nerf what isn't.

item 3302 A problem with Adcs? Melee only. ALL done.

item 2049 item 2045 making problems? -400 gold on both items. Remove ruby crystal on sightstone. KEEP THE SAME STATS.

ALLLLL done.

item 2045 Item CDR is becoming a problem? Cap it at 40% like regular CDR.

Stop pissing off players. And make a BETTER work around and compromise.

Like holy you learned NOTHING of Season 7. "We'll listen to our players"

Bull fucking shit.

jadelinkJan 15, 20182 votes

I suspect the only reason it isn't melee only is that they actually have been listening. 90% of thresh players really want it to stay as it is. And no, you can't redesignate thresh as a 'long range mellee' without him getting insane amounts of bandit gold vs a melee support.

waiting for WoWJan 12, 20183 votes

If Manaflow Band is essentially being turned back into Meditation, is there any reason why it's going to be noticeably weaker than meditation was as flat missing mana/5 seconds?

Other Cunning masteries like Merciless and Intelligence returned in far more powerful and accessible versions of their former selves.

RiotMeddlerJan 12, 201815 votes

We'll be taking another look at manaflow band, what's currently in testing on the PBE is very unlikely to ship.

ImaginesTigersJan 12, 20187 votes

I truly, truly feel that it should be weaker than present, but with a lower cooldown. 75 seconds feels way too high. Wondering if you'd be able to comment on whether or not we could get a "Time remaining" for Manaflow Band? If not, then a "time remaining:" on hover in the little rune page like Demolish has would be appreciated too

RiotMeddlerJan 12, 20189 votes

Agreed on need for it to be weaker. Thoughts to come on timers once we know what sort of direction we're taking it.

BobaFlautistJan 12, 201811 votes

If "feel" feedback is helpful, it would be awesome if it didn't proc when you're full Mana - losing your free spell for 75s helping the jungler at their first buff, or having it crop up right when you've returned to lane are a "feels bad" situation that feels like it doesn't actually allow for decisions around it, whereas something like "I'm fairly high Mana, I should regen to full to save the proc" might be more interesting.

PrissyJan 12, 20182 votes

How about making it an early game focused rune? You could have it be active for the first 10-15 minutes while being moderately powerful so as not to completely disregard any need for managing mana and then just deactivate it for the rest of the game. Mana champions tend to be much more constricted by their resource pool during laning phase when every ability cast counts and dictates your back times/lane priority etc.. Later on hardly any champion has mana issues and Manaflow Band usually isn't being played around anymore due to the abundance of other sources of mana/mana regen. (There's a difference between "Heck yeah now I have just enough mana to shove that last wave in so it'll be pushing into me when I come back to lane" vs "Me Ziggs, me throw bombs in the general direction of people in a teamfight and get full mana from Morello" or "Me Kassadin, me have Presence of Mind, me URF mode".)

risteJan 12, 20183 votes

Hey Meddler, I'd like to ask about Minion Dematerializer.

I use it actually midlane on Garen in Diamond, using a charge on the first cannon minion wave available that way I can reach level 3 before my lane opponent and go for a roam while they still have to deal with a cannon minion.

I really believe that the core strength of minion dematerializers are using four of them as opportunities for a roam (since it takes significant time early game to get rid of a cannon minion). This is a useful concept that I think a lot of players haven't quite picked up on yet.

I hope whatever changes the team at Riot ultimately decides on will still allow a way for us to skew minion waves early because I think the rune choice benefits roamers so heavily. I really enjoy the dematerializers in their current iteration and would love a similiar variant that isn't gated by a cooldown like magical footwear (10 minutes).

Thanks for reading!

Yordle XayahJan 12, 20183 votes

We'll be moving the Frost Queen's and Talisman actives onto new items}

Shurelya's and Twin Shadows comeback! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

rhintheminstrelJan 12, 20183 votes

Hi meddler!

Would immobile short ranged champions like Annie get compensation buffs if the targeted spells minion aggro will push through? She already gets bullied in lane and if it pushes through, she might have a harder time.

RiotMeddlerJan 12, 20186 votes

Potentially yeah. A lot of them work AA harass into their trading patterns, so are already getting minion agro a lot of the time, which makes it harder to predict exact impact ahead of time. We'll be making the change and then looking at how it affected a range of champs.

Enragedmonkey8Jan 12, 20183 votes

Afternoon meddler,

Can I get a update as to how hiemer balance is looking so far this patch? I know I've felt the hit turret diving or being ganked especially and wanted to know if the team was felt any follow up was going to be needed and what it might look like ?

RiotMeddlerJan 12, 20185 votes

From what we've seen so far it hasn't hit Heimer too hard at least. Need a bit more time to assess more though.

Jar Jar binks lJan 12, 20183 votes

Any update on Volibear or still testing

RiotMeddlerJan 12, 20187 votes

No updates yet beyond that E change mentioned last time.

SidestepJan 12, 20183 votes

Any thoughts on Caitlyn? She seems rather weak, given the lane shes suppose to counter aren't still in in her favor?

HalcyonDwellerJan 12, 20182 votes

Caitlyn deserves buffs only after she is changed so that you don't have to play hopscotch in a minefield under your own turret when trying to farm in the early game.

SidestepJan 12, 20182 votes

Mmh, that may be so, but hyper carries shouldn't be having an easy time against her in lane. Which is also a reason why they are excelling right now.

The Yetii RiderJan 12, 20183 votes

The changes to Nunu at the moment seem to suggest that you are taking Nunu in a fighter/juggernaut direction instead of a tank direction. If that is indeed the direction you seek to head in, I think you should probably reduce the slow on Absolute Zero back to its original 50% for the entire duration to avoid giving Nunu too much CC as a fighter.

If you see Nunu as more of a tank than a fighter, these changes make no sense to be honest. I personally have always thought of Nunu as a tank, but I guess I am in the minority here.

DoWG PreoteseiJan 12, 20183 votes

The relic shield nerf to ranged seems like a nerf to Thresh Ad carries will stop taking relic from the moment the shield reward will get removed since that was the only reason they would take it (the heal relic gave for overheal barely felt compared to a constant 255-340 shield that regenerates)

hullunmyllyJan 13, 20183 votes

I think a vision score is a bad idea. Rather than encouraging good vision it will just make people place wards mindlessly just so they don't get flamed for low vision score. Similar to how end-of-game grading works out, the grade or in this case numbers will never be accurate enough to give a good representation. Also it will result in more clutter which is bad especially for new players.

GarrotteJan 12, 20182 votes

Will vision score be pingable?

RiotMeddlerJan 12, 20186 votes

It won't be no, in the same way things like KDA and CS aren't.

orrvaaJan 12, 20182 votes

won't it be a problem to make the enemies see your vision score?, they could predict if you have wards or used them while early game

RiotMeddlerJan 12, 20188 votes

Plan is to make it so you only see your team's vision score once it's on the scoreboard like that.

Vision score is a somewhat delayed calculation as well though, so it's not actually very useful when trying to predict if someone warded really recently.

DeadUnbornJan 12, 20183 votes

Hi Meddler

I think it is great that you add this sort of features to help inexperienced players understand how important warding is!

In a related note, would you consider as viable some time in the future to add similar concepts to the Score Tab? One that comes to mind as glaring is having to check buffs to see how many stacks champions like Kindred, Rengar, NasusVeigar, etc have. I think adding their stacks in some form to the score tab would be a great improvement to the game's clarity

Also somewhat unrelated but when GA goes on CD the icon isn't grayed out like other items, and the white text on white background makes it nearly impossible to see how much time is left until the item's passive comes back up.

Cheers.