Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 14

RiotMeddler·Jul 14, 2017·1 votes·71,276 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Approach we're taking with 7.15/Qualifiers

First off, quick update, was talking with some of our Esports folks and they mentioned some of the qualifiers will likely be played on 7.16, rather than all of them on 7.15 (LPL seems most likely from the sounds of it).

Secondly, wanted to talk a bit more about the approach we're taking with pro balance for the coming patch. We're looking at groups of champions more than usual, with a few observations driving a lot of our changes and then a number of one offs. What we're currently looking into therefore looks like:

Jungle - Belief is that it's more appropriate to bring the top junglers down a bit than trying to buff others up to their level. That means smallish nerfs to Lee Sin, Gragas, Elise, Rek'Sai and Zac are being looked at. That also has the added benefit of bringing jungler impact overall down slightly, in addition to hopefully being the better way to see some more diversity.
Mid Lane - Looks to be in a reasonable spot overall, so here we're targeting specific champs we think could get into the competitive pool. That means buffs to TF, Ekko, Ziggs, Xerath and potentially one or two more. We haven't seen artillery champs in pro play much for a while, Jayce excepted, so are hoping to get a bit of spot play on one or two. Buffs will be pretty light though, so that's more a hope than an expectation however.
Champs we've adjusted recently - We're watching, but not yet testing changes for, a number of champs we've recently nerfed. Those are competitive staples recently like Galio or Caitlyn. Want to make sure we've trimmed then down enough but don't want to swing at them again if that's not needed. On the other side of things also watching a couple of champs we've recently buffed who are getting a bunch of pro play, Gnar being the biggest example
Misc champs - Finally we're also just exploring some minor tune ups/tune downs for a few miscellanious champs we think are either a bit strong or could be pro viable with smaller work. Thresh (-), Nami (+), Jinx (+), GP (+) are good examples of that.

Singed Hotfix

As a lot of you will have noticed we hotfixed nerfed Singed yesterday. Buffs for him gave him much more power than we'd predicted so we felt it necessary to take some power off him quickly. Urgency there was particularly high given that high performance wasn't just experienced Singed players doing well, but happening even with a lot of people with limited Singed experience jumping onto the changes, indicating power when played effectively was noticeably higher again. We're glad to see Singed in a stronger spot, and that was one of the big goals of the recent changes, but that doesn't mean any magnitude of buff was appropriate and this one overshot quite a bit. More thoughts on his state to follow once the patch has been out a decent amount of time.

Hotfixing in General

For anyone unfamiliar with the term a hotfix is a quick change to the game outside of the normal patch cycle that often doesn't require the player to download a new patch (done on the server). They've got some added risk, so they're not a standard tool, with less time to test things both in terms of bugs and balance. If things are urgent they can be a good choice though.

We're planning to do slightly more hotfixes, in particular because we recently saw some tools changes get finished that reduce the risk of bugs from hotfixing and the amount of developer time they take to do. They're still a riskier tool, so won't become the standard way of rolling out changes, but it's much more likely you'll see a balance change or two following up after a patch goes out. Goal with those is primarily to adjust anything that had a much larger or smaller effect than we expected (e.g. correct extreme cases of overbuffed or overnerfed quicker). Those changes won't be aiming to fully solve a problem gebnerally though, both because of the limited testing time possible and because it's not clear enough what that would require shortly after a patch. Instead they'll be aimed at moderating the most out of line cases a bit before we give them a more extended analysis over a longer period of time.

Kayn

Seems to be in an ok spot so far. We're seeing a lot of Kayns fail, that's very much expected for a new champ, especially a squishier melee one. Assassin Kayn seems to be struggling more than Darkin. That's somewhat expected off assassin being the harder to learn form, also possible there's too large a power difference between the two though. No immediate plans for balance changes, discrepancy between the two forms is one of the key things we'll be watching though.

301 Comments

LankPantsJul 14, 201737 votes

Are we going to do something about Pantheon any time soon? He's had an insane winrate for ages and he's a champ who just makes the game unfun and removes all interaction whenever he's in the game. He's a prime example of a champ who shouldn't be allowed to be strong, yet he's been oppressive for months.

I actually think it was pretty much unjustifiable not to nerf him when the Lethality buffs came through considering they were itemisation buffs to an already overpowered champion.

KMS BismarckJul 14, 201710 votes

{quoted}

Are we going to do something about Pantheon any time soon? He's had an insane winrate for ages and he's a champ who just makes the game unfun and removes all interaction whenever he's in the game. He's a prime example of a champ who shouldn't be allowed to be strong, yet he's been oppressive for months.

I actually think it was pretty much unjustifiable not to nerf him when the Lethality buffs came through considering they were itemisation buffs to an already overpowered champion.

Pantheon "They will not enjoy this!"

VierJul 14, 201712 votes

Why do you keep targeting Caitlyn's attack speed? It feels bad to play her now with Berserkers and 2 Zeal items leaving her at 1.4 attack speed at lvl 18. Please just nerf her traps over this, she feels so bad to use. Please just nerf traps and revert attack speed changes.

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 201714 votes

We think one of Cait's main problems is that she's too much of a generalist. For a safe champ, who's a lane bully, with some decent utility her single target damage later in the game (a core strength of other, narrower ADCs) has been too high, hence the AS hit.

VierJul 14, 20177 votes

[deleted]

AisleJul 14, 20179 votes

But they want her to be a lane bully and other stuff. They don't want her to have so much single DPS.

kaizenVJul 14, 201711 votes

Hi Meddler,

I think most people are frustrated with the AS nerf because it doesn't affect what they've found annoying about her. They'll still be just as annoyed by her after these nerfs.

I suggested making traps last a shorter time. I understand it doesn't change out-of-line single-target dmg. But it might hit two birds:

Less frustration in normal play (fewer traps to avoid in lane).
Less priority in pro play (if traps last significantly less time, it's much easier to break the Caitlyn siege or to take towers against her).

As a Caitlyn player, the AS hit feels bad. I understand it might not actually be bad. It just made her less fun to play—and I assume the enemies are still tilted when I kill them the 5th time when they're trying to CS under tower.

So, I'm curious if you can open up the thinking behind why her single-target dmg was the prioritized issue, instead of some other (e.g., shorter trap life) solution being used that would affect the frustration people have with her?

PS. Overall, I think balancing is done very well. And usually you find very good ways to make champs feel good, even after nerfs. That's why this one stood out to me as an odd one.

PoorManMarioJul 14, 20173 votes

It's not about making her less annoying, it's about making her less well rounded. She's supposed to have extremely strong bullying/sieging power and that's why her range and traps are good. The reason they nerfed her AS is because she not only hadthose strengths, but also really high dps in late game fights. By nerfing her AS, she's allowed to keep her main strengths while also being forced to make a tradeoff with less DPS (By doing this you also open up chances for other ADCs with that late game dps to shine through, like Twitch or Jinx).

iahim98Jul 14, 20173 votes

Have you considered hitting the ability of cait to chain w traps to a target, as a target doesn't actually get 4 seconds of immunity from her traps, as 2 seconds are used up by the 1st trap snare.

SteelMankindJul 14, 20175 votes

Because Cait should be like Jhin. Snipers don't get to attack as often as machine guns, but that one shot should have longer range and hit harder. Cait already has the long range and hard hit with headshot and traps, but the AS weakness wasn't pronounced enough for it to be significantly weaker than other ADCs

KengyJul 14, 201710 votes

No comment on lethality is very concerning.

KMS BismarckJul 14, 201718 votes

{quoted}

No comment on lethality is very concerning.

They need maybe more than 2 days?

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 201719 votes

Yep. Watching Duskblade especially closely, item balance takes longer generally to assess than champion though.

SolavisJul 14, 20179 votes

Is anything currently being worked on or planned in the future for Wukong? He isn't in a terrible state by any means, but I feel he's a very one dimensional champion with a lot more potential. Being one dimensional isn't necessarily bad I suppose, it's just boring for me personally, and I've been looking forward to a fighter class update ever since the class updates began; but now that they are done, I'm curious as to whether he might be seeing any meaningful changes in the future.

P.S. I've been playing pretty regularly since S3, and I'd like to say that Riot has gotten so much better at communicating with the player base since then, both in being more transparent about ongoing work on upcoming content and in providing justifications for changes that have or are about to be made. This adds a lot to my experience and enjoyment with the game, and it's good for the community. Thank you.

Zen LaoJul 14, 20174 votes

I've always thought this, Wukong's linearness also makes him weaker in my opinion.

Melancholy HillJul 14, 20178 votes

Will ziggs get an indicator for where he lands like the blast cones?

RetocynJul 14, 20173 votes

I'm Ziggs main, so it's not of an issue for me, but with an indicator I guess it would be easy to track it instead of my positioning.

However personally I find blast cone misleading, like I feel it updates slightly too late and I get baited on realying on it and using it too early. In which case I'd like an opt-out option..

Jinzo TorranceJul 14, 20178 votes

Thought on Viktor?

SolideusJul 14, 20177 votes

Are there explorations for "Gameplay Updates" going on internally? Azir, Yasuo, LeBlanc, etc?

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 20174 votes

Azir/LB still being worked on, though progress somewhat slower at present with people doing Qualifiers/Worlds patch stuff as well. Regardless wouldn't be putting those updates out until post Worlds patch at a minimum (so 7.19 at the earliest, though could certainly be later).

ProXXoN77Jul 14, 20176 votes

Kayn can walk trough walls - Better nerf Singed :)))))

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 201729 votes

Singed is too strong, better nerf Singed.

Kayn doesn't look too strong, better keep assessing Kayn.

Also, walking through walls isn't as powerful as you seem to think it is. It's really useful, don't get me wrong, but there are an awful lot of champions who can cross walls faster than Kayn can and quite a few that can use the same long wall gank paths he gets access to.

AtanchanJul 14, 20179 votes

Guys like these make me wonder if the only champion with a dash they've ever played or seen is Vayne.

RetocynJul 14, 20173 votes

{quoted} Also, walking through walls isn't as powerful as you seem to think it is. It's really useful, don't

My question is, why he is allowed to dash over walls with his Q, if he can already freely pass them with E.

To comparsion I'd have champions with multiple dashes, like Lee Sin or Rakan. However those champions have some requirements to pass walls.

Lee Sin - has to hit something with Q to use the dash; has to place a word or find an ally nearby to use the dash
Rakan - can use W freely, what is fine, because the dash from his E has a requirement to find an allied champion nearby

Now I understand why Galio can't dash over walls, because he is tanky and it would take ages to kill him if he could get over walls, possibly same with Urgot - it'd be too annoying.

But Kayn can technically pass walls with 3 abilities: Q, E and ult (if he manages to find enemy champion nearby). And also he can build tanky if he choses Darkin form, so he can be as tanky as Galio and Urgot at the times.

DeadUnbornJul 14, 20175 votes

You are blowing it out of proportion

1.- Kayn's mobility is tied to him being out of combat (he can traverse an entire jungle section in assassin form with yellw boots). if he is in combat his e can only pass one short wall

2.- His Q also only passes through small walls, as well as putting on CD on of his most reliable damage outputs

3.- Ult is conditiones to getting in to do damage first, and if used wrong the "infested" enemy can carry you away from your team so he and his buddies beat you up

If anything Darkin Kayn is fine and assassin needs a more reliable escape/faster burst pattern

RavenHuskyJul 14, 20176 votes

What was the plan with the Lux buffs that you mentioned on the 11th?

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 20177 votes

Overall buffs, but focused on team utility rather than comboing a target down (Q CD, W shield on allies).

SolideusJul 14, 20173 votes

It strikes me as a risk that Lux becomes too much of a generalist if she has both high damage, safety and high utility. Do you think she has clear enough weaknesses for this not to be a worry?

VierJul 14, 201711 votes

Her main damaging ability E has a cooldown of 10 seconds at all ranks. She has too long cooldowns for sustained damaged and usually can't one shot people at later stages due to Zhonyas, QSS, Banshees and Maw.

She has a lot of weaknesses, I think those buffs are in the right direction because I'm assuming Q will still have quite a long cooldown so she can still be punished if it is missed. The W increase is for allies so she will not be able to abuse it herself because from Meddler's wording it seems like the shield on Lux is getting no buffs so you will still be able to easily trade with her and pop her.

CosnirakJul 14, 20175 votes

if she has both high damage, safety

She has safety? She has range sure, but I don't think that's quite the same as safety. She's squishy, completely immobile, and none of her damage happens fast so she relies on cc to hit people mostly. Her mana is garbage and she often has to choose between wave clear and fighting. Her damage is only high if she builds a ton of ap, making it difficult for her to build any defenses while still doing damage.

Overlord ForteJul 14, 20176 votes

I've deep concerns about buffing Xerath, as he seems to function in a near 'sleeper OP' state in my experience, and is one of the few picks I regard as such. Playing him is tricky, but once you're familiar with his pattern, his damage output capacity is absolutely insane. Giving him enough to compensate for the problems of pro play (where being counter picked and coordinated against is a more extreme issue) will almost undoubtedly make him overbearing in solo play, I think.

HalcyonDwellerJul 14, 20171 votes

As a Xerath main I agree, he's in a good state already, any buffs will only make him incredibly unfair to play against.

Votable JesterJul 15, 20173 votes

The only buff I want is the ability to leave ult while snared. It is quite annoying when you would be able to win if you retaliated with your stun, but because you can't move, you have to wait until you finish all the ult shots.

Sure you can say that if you get hit while ulting you should be punished, but you already kind of are by being immobile and revealed during it.

GranzebomaJul 14, 20176 votes

Please don't buff Ekko. Every time you guys do he ends up pick or ban. He's already popular in high elo and a reasonably common pick in competitive. What makes you think he needs a buff? Putting him in the same category as champs like TF and Xerath seems crazy. Those champs have been out of meta for like a full year whereas Ekko has been a decently popular since the assassin class update.

Ekko ends up too generically strong every time he gets buffed. He's supposed to be a niche pick with a particular set of unique skills and he's already fairly popular. In what sense does he need a buff? Please reconsider, the last thing I want is for Ekko to be pick / ban again and have to wait till you guys nerf him so I can play again.

DCYOUNG888Jul 14, 20175 votes

When will Reav3 post the article about the champion reworks (and diver update)? I remember you said sometime this month.

VęrtęxJul 14, 201718 votes

There will be no more class updates

DCYOUNG888Jul 14, 20176 votes

You are right but I remember Reav3 or someone else saying that they will update the divers but individually rather than in a group.

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 20178 votes

We'll do some work on a diver or two this year, unlikely to be as many as a class update would have contained however.

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 20173 votes

Should be next week.

AdalvarJul 14, 20175 votes

Any changes planned for Sivir ?

What about the proposed rework to Ezreal W?

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 20179 votes

Some extra Sivir Q damage at rank 1 is a possibility, her early game looks too weak.

Still aiming to do some Ez W work at some point, doesn't look feasible before Worlds however. Will be looking at a small other buff instead as a result.

AdalvarJul 14, 20172 votes

Will Sivir see the buffs pre Worlds or only after them?

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 20175 votes

Likely before (could be 7.15).

John FF KennedyJul 16, 20172 votes

if ez W keeps doing damage (which i hope it does) please leave the ap scaling alone. its fine playing ap ez in normalgames once in a while

Report EvelynnJul 14, 20173 votes

Still no updates on abillity Icons? :/ I just want new ones for Janna

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 20178 votes

Still in progress, slower than hoped though, artist we had polishing them's been pulled onto some other higher priority stuff as well.

kama odJul 14, 20173 votes

mind saying what are you planning for Jinx\Ekko? thank you :)

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 20177 votes

Ekko potentially lower E CD at early ranks/same when maxed.

Jinx still discussing, though might include W CD.

Sahn UzalJul 14, 20172 votes

Misc champs - Finally we're also just exploring some minor tune ups/tune downs for a few miscellanious champs we think are either a bit strong or could be pro viable with smaller work. Thresh (-), Nami (+), Jinx (+), GP (+) are good examples of that.

Is Trial By Fire still the part you're looking at? Just outa curiousity :P

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 20177 votes

Yep, +15 damage on it from memory.