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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 7

RiotMeddler··1 votes·47,696 views

Happy Friday all!


Mid-season changes starting to appear on PBE

We're at the point where we'll be putting some of the mid-season changes onto PBE a patch early and letting them soak there a bit longer. Many of the changes won't be there until the 7.9 PBE cycle starts though.

Right now the durability item changes are there, details can be found at:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/WgNuqAK8-midseason-durability-goals-and-direction https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/8g2H4vjy-midseason-durability-feedback

It's also fairly likely we'll have some changes to support starting items there early next week as well. Those are focused on stuff like laning patterns (especially on Coin) and recognition of success. More details on that soon.


Renaming the support position?

As some of you may have seen in game or from screenshots posted elsewhere we've been conducting a few surveys recently to get players's thoughts on other possible names for the support position. We don't have any immediate plans to try and rename it, long term though, once we've done more work on the gameplay possible from that position we'd like to try and find a more appealing name than 'support'. Something that still recognizes how important team interaction is, but that also doesn't imply a secondary, less empowered role. We'd then be interested in changing the icon from something so ward like at the same time.

Haven't found anything yet we're happy enough with, or that has gotten a strong positive response from players surveyed though. Words we've been looking at so far include terms like multiplier, flex, catalyst and specialist. As above even if we found a good replacement name players liked we'd also want to address gameplay issues first - renaming without doing so otherwise feels pretty empty/pointless.


Testing some spell buffering changes on PBE on Karthus and Ryze

We've got a couple of changes to how Karthus and Ryze buffer their spells on PBE at present that are intended to make them a bit smoother to use, in particular on higher latency connections. Any feedback on those from folks with PBE access much appreciated. We're not mentioning specific details for now though on what's changed to see if there's anything good or bad that gets specifically noticed when you're not sure exactly what's changed.

298 Comments

Kritty30 votes

I actually really like "Specialist", or something along those lines. It signifies that the person doesn't fulfill a traditional laning role in the game, but allows for interpretations other than just "there to tank damage or heal up teammates".

redfeenix5 votes

But supports like Leona and Allistars are tanks. Not specialists.

Supports like lulu and zyra are casters.

Only supports like blitz, thresh, bard etc would be considered "specialist".

Its not as simple as simply changing the name of "supports" to specialists", because half the current supports we see in bot lane would be considered a different class like "vanguard" or "caster", not specialist.

Shíny9 votes

Specialist would be replacing support as the name for their role in laning not their class or subclass which defines how they do that. Riot already defined the class of close to every champion (it's slightly outdated) in these two articles

Dev Blog: Classes and Sub-classes

Dev corner: Champion Sub-class list

Ralanr18 votes

I don't know if specialists really makes sense. Specialists implies that each of them provide a unique niche that doesn't fit into other classes (from my interpretation). So champions like Singed would be more like a specialist than someone like Sona.

RiotMeddler11 votes

{quoted}

I actually really like "Specialist", or something along those lines. It signifies that the person doesn't fulfill a traditional laning role in the game, but allows for interpretations other than just "there to tank damage or heal up teammates".

That's what drew me to specialist as a term too, clear message that this is someone who's focused on particular things more than others (not CSing being the biggest distinction). Survey response to it was pretty poor, might retest it someday after we've done more work on the support position though, see if with a bit more context and change player attitude to it is different.

Chromatic Eagle5 votes

What's so wrong with just support?

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

The connotation behind it. It implies you being a lesser role than other teammembers, and has normally been very niche when it comes to people who enjoy empowering others and acting supportive, when it comes to liking the name.

DarkRitual10 votes

"Enabler"

Enable enemies by empowering allies, or enable map control by kill stealing securing the enemy laners.

Kei1431 votes

I had the same thought.

As a support main, I approve.

Leyrann3 votes

As an about-to-be support main (just gotta wait until Rakan hits live), I approve too.

Leyrann2 votes

This needs more visibility. (even though it's up quite high)

Imo it's the perfect term. Whatever you're doing as support, it's enabling your team to do what they want to do. Maybe you're cc'ing someone so they can kill them, maybe you're healing them so they can keep fighting, etc. Actually made a post advocating enabler before I saw this one. In fact, it was the first thing that popped in my mind when I saw that Riot wanted to rename support. Was actually surprised it wasn't in the options Meddler mentioned.

MrBluePants2 votes

Yeah, "Enabler" is the best name imo. It's not as denigrating to say as "Support" but it makes it clear what the role is, just like "Support".

"Specialist" is just terrible. I mean not for us who've been playing this game long enough to know it's still a supporting role, but imagine you're a new player and see the name "Specialist". You'll immediately think "Oh! What a flashy name for a role! Certainly it's a very mechanically intense and carry-like role!", only to later find out it's not and getting trash talked by the entire team for stealing farm from the adc and picking Lee Sin bot.

I guess with Rakan things might change a bit since he really is super flashy and somewhat mechanically intense while still being a support, but the majority of the support champions right now are still somewhat boring. If you really think about it, the most fun supports right now (apart from Rakan and Thresh) are all mid lane mages that are now also being played bot. But the the actually champions that were designed to only be supports are mostly boring, which is why most people don't want to play support. Of course some people might find those supports fun too and be very offended that I called them boring, BUT, if they really were that fun then the whole problem with queue times due to the limited number of support players wouldn't exist and the other 80% or 90% of players wouldn't mind playing support, which isn't the case at all.

Eeyore4 votes

I'm 100% on-board with a Specialist role (and even have one in my head-canon) - but I do not think that it's synonymous with Support. As someone who also plays games Overwatch and Heroes of the Storm - Specialist, for me, refers to champions who are designed to perform non-PVP objectives. For me, Specialists are: Defense champions like Zyra, Heimerdinger and Illaoi; Poacher champions like Kalista, Cho'Gath and Nunu; and Demolitionist champions like Jinx, Tristana and Ziggs.

In my opinion:

  • Fighter
  • Enforcer (Vanguards and Divers - Sejuani, Vi, Leona, Amumu, Zac, Hecarim, Gragas, etc.)
  • Juggernaut (Juggernauts and Battlemages - Darius, Nasus, Olaf, Swain, Vladimir, Mordekaiser, Rumble, etc.)
  • Skirmisher (Yasuo, Jax, Xin Zhao, Irelia, Diana, Ekko, etc.)
  • Slayer
  • Artillery (Backline poke - Kog'Maw, Xerath and Varus.)
  • Bombardier (Frontline poke - Corki, Ezreal, Nidalee, etc.)
  • Mage (Burst casters - Annie, Veigar, Syndra, etc.)
  • Ranger (Marksmen / AP DPS - Ashe, Vayne, Cassiopeia, Azir, Twisted Fate, etc.)
  • Rogue (Assassins / Ambush champions - Evelynn, Katarina, Kha'Zix, Akali, etc.)
  • Support
  • Disruptor / Controller (Anivia, Blitzcrank, Lulu, Kennen, Morgana, Fiddlesticks, Orianna, etc.)
  • Enchanter (Janna, Soraka, Sona, Rakan and Zilean)
  • Warden (Protector Tanks - Braun, Alistar, Galio, Maokai, Thresh, etc.)
  • Specialist
  • Defense
  • Demo
  • Poacher

And don't be afraid of Hybrids.

If you want to avoid the word "Support", just refer to champions as Disruptor, Enchanter or Warden. "Our team needs a Warden." or "Urgh, Enchanters are such boring champions - whenever they're good they just get nerfed." or "I'm a Disruptor Main - I love pissing off my enemy!".

SteelMankind2 votes

Not a fan of artillery and assassins in the same category - can't just lump damage-dealing squishies together into one group; there's way too much of a difference in playstyle there.

Also the distinction between Artillery and Bombardier being super long-ranged vs just long-ranged seems a little strange - its like grouping 500 range ADC's in a different category than 600+ range ones.

TF is also not typically a DPS champ, as his autos are short range and his E steroid is more used for higher gold-card burst rather than just autoattacking people.

I kinda disagree with Diana, Xin, and Irelia being Skirmishers. They lack the outplay tools and short-ranged combat mobility thats so characteristic of the class.

Also, Juggernaut Aurelion Sol (don't get in melee range of him !!!)

Sorry to be a dick btw. Classifying things like this in League appeals to me as a lifetime RPG player, and so when someone is at odds with my ideas I try to defend them :P mostly I like Riot's except for their classification of Ekko as a Skirmisher - I consider him an Assassin.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

just name them what they are....Redemption-bots. Item-Mules. Sightstone-carries. Anything, besides a valid part of the team. The guys with the short stick...

Adalvar17 votes

Have you considered the massive impact that some of the new items will have on AP mages/assassins? Adaptive Helm by itself takes a massive dump on DPS/Combo based mages, Banshee's will be a 1st/2nd item pick up. Items like Spirit/Maw/Edge can already screw up a mage's function as a burster and now with this alot of them will fall even further into darkness, unless they have some form of in-built utility.

And this not withstanding the massive AP drain from items that has been going on since mid season 5, now you are giving MR per level for everyone? The only effect this will have is that AP characters will become a liability and will get phased out completely, which in turn will cause AD characters to take their place, which in turn will cause tanks to completely shift to anti physical defense and we'll return to initial issue: tanks being too strong against damage dealers (of the primarily physical kind).

On the other hand item 3116 this is completely gutted, this item 3285 has no identity, these item 3027 item 3003 fail completely on their jobs as scaling items due to either providing a low end payoff for their scaling curve, or being too slow to reach their peak. item 3089 is an overpriced mess with an equally crap build path, and we were promised new endgame buildpaths from item 3802 when the mage rework came out in the first place. item 3151 is niche as hell, but because everything else is gutted, it stands out as the better option in broken down armory. Used to be, with a double scaling build you could reach 1k AP and around 750-800 with one scaling item. Now you get what? 800-850 at best? And even with a scaling item like item 3027, you can't even break 700 AP without consumables. And note that double scaling builds were not that common and had plenty counterplay due how slow their spikes were and how weak the champions that went with single/double scaling builds were in the early/mid-game.

You mentioned that Kassadin wasn't providing the lategame payoff he should for how weak his laning was in the recent patch notes. Maybe the fact that two of his core items (item 3027 item 3157) lost a decent amount of AP value and Kassa is one of the most AP dependant champions in the game due to low bases and large scalings.

Have you guys considered that maybe, just maybe you should consider making a infusion of AP back into the game and take another look at the AP armory (specifically passives and actives) if these changes do go through?

EDIT: Then there's the Hextech armory of which two are pretty niche item 3146 item 3152, though fun and interesting items and the other item 3030 either gets outdone stat-wise with item 3027 or get overlapped with item 3116 and it still gets the short end of the stick.

Lebłanc Bot1 votes

Yeah really most so items need to be rework. Revert changes on raylias and lower price on death cape to maybe 3200.

Adalvar2 votes

I don't have an issue with item 3116 being as it is, since it's high utility should leave it on the lower AP end and item 1058 end game options should be offensive oriented. Thing is it shouldn't be that low in the AP spectrum.

Huudi12 votes

Call it what it is and name supports "Martyrs"

Redesignated4 votes

Martyrs, Scapegoats, Living Wards…

DCYOUNG88810 votes

Are the Lissandra buffs coming back for this PBE patch?

SaltNPetty3 votes

Lissandra item 3070

RiotMeddler8 votes

Probably. We really want to get something out for her, given we've been looking at her and talking about it for a while, mid-season work is higher priority though so can't guarantee yet.

Redesignated10 votes

Even if you rename "support," do you think people will actually adopt the changed name? The vast majority of people still refer to ranged basic-attack focused champions as "AD carries" rather than marksmen/women. When LCS lists bot lane as the ADC, and it's Ziggs of all people that match, it's kind of obvious people are being stubborn.

Something that still recognizes how important team interaction is, but that also doesn't imply a secondary, less empowered role.

It's not even a matter of it being implied, it's kind of the reality — least gold income, least EXP gain, very few items with the majority of them being tailored around a single subset of the roster, no recognition from the game itself (let alone the players), easiest role to target for harassment along with jungle.

Fisherman Fízz9 votes

Hello Meddler, with bruiser/tank Fizz making a comeback, are there any plans to deal with that?

RiotMeddler7 votes

From memory it's on our list of things to look at shortly. Not sure on what conclusion the team will come to yet though.

Stacona7 votes

For support why not something like "Tactician" since they are a very tactical position that controls the game on a more calculated level than a brute force power one.

The icon maybe an ancient scroll ordeal or a star, spit balling here.

Linna Excel6 votes

Potential support names:

Ward Slave KSing A - - Likes to be carried That thing I got autofilled to again That thing I can't take as a secondary role as I always get it when I do The sidekick Your ADC's personal servant/meatshield That guy without gold or levels That guy with the terrible itemization The B*tchrole of botlane

Jeddy0177 votes

I like ADC's babysitter the best.

Tropuni2 votes

try limiting them to 1 word

Northmund2 votes

Slave i guess is a combination of them all.

Devölution6 votes

Pls give us some thoughts on Yorick current state/plans for him.

4NoxiousHours3 votes

How about, Guardian or Protector? Maybe Defender? Savior?

Something that sounds cool that both male and female will agree on.

Shíny6 votes

I think those are a little too defensive minded. There's quite a few engage'y aggressive supports also.

RiotMeddler6 votes

Yeah, that's what pushed us away from those sorts of terms. They're great fits for some champions/classes, but not others. Since we're looking to describe a position and broad function we wanted to stay away from anything with strong thematic expectations like that as a result.

SuperLuigiLXIV11 votes

I don't see what's wrong with Support.

But, if you're looking for a title that's neutral to offense and defense and makes all the support players feel like special snowflakes, Tactician would probably be the best fit.

Tomeksz3 votes

Meddler, can you confirm that the wait between Xayah and Rakan and the next champion after them will be shorter than usuall?

RiotMeddler4 votes

The gap we were talking about being smaller was that between the champ after Camille and the new champ after that. The gap between Xayah's release and Rakan's, or Rakan's and Xayah's depending on how you want to look at it. After that double release we should be back to something closer to usual release timing for this part of the year.

iahim982 votes

Where they made in tandem or 1 team did both of them and that's why it took so long?

RiotMeddler6 votes

Xayah and Rakan each had a separate team working on them. One of those teams would normally have been aiming to have a champion ready around February, hence the gap in champion releases.

For anyone curious the new champion team is made of three sub teams. The one not working on Xayah or Rakan's therefore up next with the new champ after those 2.

SplinterTwin3 votes

What about "Enforcer"?

noun noun: enforcer; plural noun: enforcers

a person or group that compels observance of or compliance with a law, rule, or obligation. "the city police's role as enforcers of traffic rules will increase"

  •     informal
      a person who imposes their will by violence and intimidation.
      "gangland enforcers linked to a drugs gang"
    
  •     informal
      (in sports) a strong, aggressive, or intimidating player whose role is to protect teammates or dominate an area of the field of play.
       "a surprising twist in career for the burly defensive enforcer"
    
Jeddy01717 votes

Can't wait for people to face my Enforcer Soraka. They're going to be sick of bananas when I'm done with them.

Jeddy0172 votes

Wait, you guys are renaming the support role? Since when was this a thing? Did I miss something while playing Breath of the Wild?

Shíny4 votes

This was posted on reddit by a player:

http://i.imgur.com/ssYJaOm.jpg

RiotMeddler4 votes

As above:

"We don't have any immediate plans to try and rename it, long term though, once we've done more work on the gameplay possible from that position we'd like to try and find a more appealing name than 'support'. Something that still recognizes how important team interaction is, but that also doesn't imply a secondary, less empowered role."

GinoSoldier10 votes

You've heard what i'm going to say a thousand times already, but supports will never be a 'less empowered role' so long as; 1. their kits hold minimal power/scaling when solo, and 2. Their items can be played by almost anyone with similar efficiency.

As a 50/50 support/mage player, i feel like the move you made all the way back to the introduction of AP/Armor/MR/HP scalings on the CC/Shields/Heals of supports was a move in the right direction. I think you should keep going that way. Make supports scale in CC/Shields/Heals like tanks scale in tankyness and damage champions scale in damage. Make Nami's bubble duration or size scale with AP. Leona's passive scale with health or armor/mr. Soraka's movement bonus passive with AP. Supports should be picked for the specific way each support can empower their team, and currently things like Annie/MF/Malz supp exist because what true support champions bring to their team isn't as valuable as raw damage.

I feel like Supports, instead of getting per-level scaling on their items (looking at Redemption and Locket), should get item power values equal to other classes for equal prices. In exchange, the effects on these items need to be unstackable, and be designed around either weakening the enemy team or empowering your own. Auras, on-hit effects, crowd-control/defense/offense dampener/enhancer actives. There are ways. In return, also bring back some extra Tenacity for other classes.

The fact that Supports get lower income than other classes can be somewhat remedied in the Mastery expansion you guys have planned, letting supports gain gold by doing support things. I just can't see why they need to be weaker than other roles.

N1bbl32 votes

Is there any reason why nunu got some stealth changes on patch 7.7 that weren't on the pbe or patch notes?

Spideraxe5 votes

Riot Axes mentioned on Reddit it was there fault, they dropped the ball with the patch notes

RiotMeddler5 votes

We failed at patch noting all of the changes, that's very much our bad. They were on the PBE, but weren't properly documented in the final notes.

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