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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 31

RiotMeddler··1 votes·158,276 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

A bit more preseason (8.23) context

Preseason's getting pretty close now. We've talked about the larger changes a fair bit, most recent update at the link below in case you missed. Wanted to run through some details on a few additional changes as well.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/NPBRPjqf-preseason-dev-update-number-3

  • Jungle XP

Changes to the jungle earlier in the year, including the removal of the overlevelled xp penalty, mean junglers are often getting quite a bit more XP than they were previously, which can include them being highest or highest equal level on their team a bit more than we believe is appropriate. We're cutting the amount jungle XP scales over time back slightly as a result. Change we're testing involves camps giving the same amount of XP at game start, but scaling 5% slower over time.

  • Value of dragons

We're bumping up the value of taking a bit, since at present it's not proving to be as much of a priority as intended early game. Current tactics in testing for that are having the first stack of each buff give more benefit than the following ones (e.g. Cloud at 3%, 4.5%, 6% versus 2%, 4%, 6%) and increasing gold/XP a bit, so trade off versus taking regular camps isn't unnecessarily punishing.

  • Spear of Shojin

We're testing some modifications to Spear of Shojin with an eye to bringing it out in preseason. For anyone unfamiliar it's an item we had on the PBE around midseason that gave AD, health and defense based on your AD. Versions we're currently look at involve changing from flat DR to % DR (less abusive in certain cases, much clearer interactions with pen) and build path changes. Not currently planning to release Atma's Reckoning, which was the other item PBE'd during midseason, possible we end up merging some elements of it (some of its build path perhaps?) with the changes to Spear though.

  • Control Wards

We're planning on decreasing the number of Control Wards that can be carried at once to 2, from its current 3. That's targeted at play where they're being used almost like consumable red trinket charges despite the cost, providing unintended amounts of vision denial. We're not trying to remove that entirely, but do want to increase opportunity cost of doing so somewhat, hence the lowered cap.

  • Fleet Footwork's AP ratio

We're testing a reduction in Fleet Footwork's AP ratio at present. That's not driven by a desire to push AP users off Fleet Footwork, but instead due to the decoupling of stats from choice of rune tree. We've kept Fleet Footwork's AP ratio high until now because the cost of going into Precision for many AP champs was quite high, given they usually don't get as much benefit from Attack Speed. Now you'll be able to choose your stats on the other hand the tree's quite a bit more accessible to them, so pushing AP ratio so far above where it would normally be isn't needed as much.


8.22 context

We're trying a few tweaks right now as we come to the end of the 8.22 development window. Bit of context on some of those below:

  • Maokai - Considering a few different buffs aimed primarily at buffing his jungling, given he's performing quite a bit weaker there than in lane.
  • Nunu - Has never quite performed as well as we expected him to post update, even with optimal builds. Looks like we were a bit off in terms of how much power he'd get from learning curve. Giving him a bit more mid combat durability in particular as a result, with a stronger heal when he uses his Q on champions.
  • Taliyah - Testing a change where Q deals reduced damage to monsters, but has a lower CD and mana cost. Somewhat experimental, so might not ship. Taliyah jungle is performing too well in high tier play, both solo queue and pro. Mid lane performance by contrast isn't out of line, so looking at solutions that target jungle primarily.
  • Trundle - We hit him too hard with previous nerfs. Putting some damage back in, both base and ratio as a result.
  • Viktor - After some more investigation we're probably going to take a bit of power out of tank Viktor builds while aiming to keep AP Viktor around his current power level. Still down to see some top lane Viktor, starting to see it perform really well when tanky even though a lot of players doing it aren't that experienced yet. Trying to tone it down a bit as a result without going so far as to remove it from being a good choice at least some of the time.

No second post this week

I'll be out of town for a couple of days, so no second post this week. Back to normal next week.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

167 Comments

RiotMeddler20 votes

Separate note just for the NA Boards - my apologies, but I'm just about to leave town for a few days. Won't be able to respond to comments or questions this morning as a result. Back to usual on that as well next week.

Rework Quinn17 votes

He's going on an extended trick-or-treating spree.

Bring us back some candy please.

ModThe Djinn5 votes

{quoted}

Separate note just for the NA Boards - my apologies, but I'm just about to leave town for a few days. Won't be able to respond to comments or questions this morning as a result. Back to usual on that as well next week.

Pinning this for increased visibility. Thanks for the heads up!

Eeszsa2 votes

[deleted]

RoboticBiotic10 votes

Try reading before you whine. "Testing a change where Q deals reduced damage to monsters, but has a lower CD and mana cost. Somewhat experimental, so might not ship. Taliyah jungle is performing too well in high tier play, both solo queue and pro. Mid lane performance by contrast isn't out of line, so looking at solutions that target jungle primarily." He literally said the reduced damage would be to monster, meaning jungle camps. Not minions. So ONLY jungle Taliyah would be hurt. The lower CD and mana cost would HELP mid lane because it isn't reducing her damage for them. It would be a small buff and still hurt jungle Taliyah who is a little too strong for them.

Sex Crazed Eve5 votes

Jungle already requires winning lanes to be able to do ANYTHING at all...

and you're nerfing it?

Daddy Ants15 votes

Thoughts on Lucian ?

Stat websites have him at a 53% + win rate with a 35%+ play rate.

The buffs to his Q in 8.19 were absolutely unnecessary and he feels extremely overbearing to play against.

If we look at** traditional bot lane picks,** Lucian statistically has NO lane counters.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/Lucian/

sleeping slaves2 votes

[deleted]

Daddy Ants25 votes

[{quoted}](name=ur a girl right,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=o7Ts852E,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-10-31T16:04:57.816+0000)

Playing the game gives me the right to comment on it.

Regardless of if I'm Silver, Diamond or Challenger. I play the game, I am well within my rights to discuss things like this.

Oh yeah, I reported your post also.

LezDog2 votes

Yes you have the right but being low elo heavily alters the validity of your opinion. I didn't see what the previous comment was by I assume it wasn't very friendly.

Doge20202 votes

Feedback is still feedback. This helps Riot find the correct data so they can balance the game slightly for low elo players. If they ever decide to do that more...

It’s not validity, it’s more of perspective. Low elo players might think that X and Y are the most broken parts of a meta champ’s kit, while high elo players think that Y and Z and the powerful parts. With this info Riot can cater to both elo’s by nerfing Y (which was the part of the kit that both sides of the playerbase agree is too powerful) while also nerfing/buffing X and/or Z so that the champ is not nerfed too hard.

I also didn’t see the deleted comment, but from Antenora’s reaction I have a very big idea. I dealt with people like that before, one even tried to claimed that high elo players know more about PLAYER BEHAVIOR than low elo players. That one was by far the worst thing that I have seen from those types of comments. He tried to say that players who are skillful at the game know more about how players should behave than low elo players, when the rules are very clearly laid out so everybody can understand it regardless of the player’s skill with GAMEPLAY.

Sorry about the long text for that last paragraph. Really Wanted to share that experience of mine lol

232345 votes

They even buffed him when he was in his strong spot to raise skin sales. So i do not think they are gonna nerf him.

Mr Rat2 votes

It has been proven that skin sales have nothing to do with game balance. So please don't spread this prejudice

Colourpoint5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cute Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=o7Ts852E,comment-id=000800010000,timestamp=2018-10-31T21:15:49.172+0000)

It has been proven that skin sales have nothing to do with game balance. So please don't spread this prejudice

When has this been proven? There's way too many coincidences for this to be true. Jinx was buffed before her star guardian skin after not being touched for ages.

Jetboost3 votes

Wasn't the reason because Jinx didn't really appear in the botlane anymore? There was a period you would maybe see her once every 20 matches or so now i see her 1~2 every 10 matches.

i NeeD YouR DiE1 votes

Yeah, he should be nerfed. item 3071 gives him too much spike and I think basic AD should be decrased.

Buff Riven Plz3 votes

[{quoted}](name=i NeeD YouR DiE,realm=EUNE,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=o7Ts852E,comment-id=00080002,timestamp=2018-11-01T18:25:41.945+0000)

Yeah, he should be nerfed. item 3071 gives him too much spike and I think basic AD should be decrased.

Black cleaver needs a buff. Dosent need nerfs. The item should be changed to more AD focused rather than health should be 55 Ad 200 hp amd old build path.

xxxDogmanxxx10 votes

Hiya Meddler, you know I love you guys, and I'm really sorry because I know this is going to be terribly rude of me, but WHAT THE ACTUAL BLEEDING HELL MAN. You guys think Junglers gets too MUCH xp??? We are literally level 4 when laners get level 6. There's currently an entire minute and a half in the early game from 6:00 to 7:30 where we are TWO LEVELS BEHIND laners regardless of how we play. This is NOT an exaggeration, I literally did the math on Jungler XP vs Laner XP.

I love you, I really do, but nerfing Jungle xp is NOT the way to go.

Shishigami Hiro9 votes

Have you considered bringing taliyahs bonus movement speed on worked ground back to help her midlane ?

SonicÐeHedgedawg6 votes

A few questions if you don't mind Meddler.

1 - adaptive stats on starter items (like spellthief's, cull and dark seal). Thoughts?

2 - bone plating was problematic, but the other choices in that row, now that it's absent, are pretty niche. It feels like there should be a generalist defensive rune in the row too.

3 - I am disheartened by the late and tepid response to top-lane Viktor. His win rate might be acceptable, but playing against him with any melee lacking hard-engage is the definition of low-fun, low-interaction, no counterplay. Kidding lane in champion select that hard is frustrating as hell and needs to be quashed for the health of the game

rtbf610923156 votes

Any news about thoses lane nidalee buffs ?

Hügö6 votes

So you want to completly fuck jungle? Even now it is a struggle to keep up with the levels of laners, most of the time you are 1-3 levels behind the laners if you have an average game. Even when complelty fed that you are not that far ahead in levels.

Xayane5 votes

Hi Meddler,

Any plan to revert essence reaver to its old version ? It used to have some play, some adcs would take it to have more utility with spells like Ashe's R or Xayah's root, but right now it doesn't seem to fit any situation. It's just not worth it, on any adc ( maybe expected Lucian ? ). Would be great if you guys take a bit of time to think if it's satisfying to keep it the way it is right now or not.

Really appreciate the time you take for those posts.

Linna Excel3 votes

Yeah, the new ER is just weird in terms of design. Only EZ might want it now but he has manamune.

Buff Riven Plz2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=o7Ts852E,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-10-31T16:30:43.644+0000)

Yeah, the new ER is just weird in terms of design. Only EZ might want it now but he has manamune.

Riven has been running it actually pretty good also it’s pretty good on some fighters. Maybe if they gave it. 200hp and a different passive it would be neat.

Remurin5 votes

Hey Meddler, now that the dust has settled in S8, how did enchanter supporters like Lulu and Janna end up? Satisfied with the results?

Another question: Could we get more of an official changelog for changes on the PBE for the future? Relying on a third party ala S@20 and trying to find Riot Tweets isn't that nice.

AirKingNeo5 votes

Kai'sa and Lucian are still at 30%+ pickrate and there's no nerfs in sight. Why?

Eviscaerian5 votes

Sejuani Is virtually unplayable in this meta, pls buff her or the items she builds

Best Kog NA4 votes

I noticed that there isn't a lot of bot lane changes in the last few patches (compared to around patch like 8.12 and 8.13), is the balance team happy with the current state of bot lane right now or can we expect changes to be shipped once preseason starts?

sniperxl2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Ryze NA,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=o7Ts852E,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-31T15:39:11.686+0000)

I noticed that there isn't a lot of bot lane changes in the last few patches (compared to around patch like 8.12 and 8.13), is the balance team happy with the current state of bot lane right now or can we expect changes to be shipped once preseason starts?

i can say bot lane is the most balance it has been. so i rather keep them where they are

Best Kog NA1 votes

I mean there's some adcs that are just super relevant and then others that are just unplayable rn, if you're not a crit adc you just aren't allowed to play the game pretty much

sniperxl2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Ryze NA,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=o7Ts852E,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T16:25:00.490+0000)

I mean there's some adcs that are just super relevant and then others that are just unplayable rn, if you're not a crit adc you just aren't allowed to play the game pretty much

u can say the same thing with other role like jungler ect early game jungler are king so for any jungler that need to farm u cant even play the game

Kalísta4 votes

Hi Meddler!

I heard that you guys were reducing the amount of time before minions spawn next season.

I was wondering if you guys had considered reducing Kalista's item 3599 Ritual time as a result.

With the changes a few patches ago that made it so she can't bind her oathsworn before they finish loading in, her support is already stuck in base for about 5 seconds longer than the rest of the team under even the best of circumstances.

I'm worried that if there's less time before minions spawn, that disadvantage would be amplified.

Lil Homie busta4 votes

Spear of Shojin is taking a very interesting direction. I just wish it to never reach marksmens in a viable way. They already have the safety of their range and usually are team oriented with people to support them. I really hope that it will be a diver item for people who have trouble in team fights and/or cannot afford 2 slots for pure defense, like Riven or Fiora.

B100d Arrowz4 votes

Very sad to see the decision seems to be stripping away more and more vision out of the game... I know there's no way to get back season 3 vision, but I still long for the days of season 5. Sightstone buyable, four trinket upgrade with each being viable, still possible (but difficult) to totally choke a team via vision.

aezens4 votes

I did some calculations and if they are correct you get at least 25% less exp from clearing jungle compared to solo laner.

Are you sure monster exp is the main reason? How many % of there total exp gain are from kills,assists and lane minions? Has this value changed as well?

Also do jungler get more exp in genral or in relation to solo laners? Maybe it´s a result of increased roaming or strong early game jungler.

ReworkUdyr20204 votes

Here is to praying the Udyr VGU will happen sometime in Season 9

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Nunu - Has never quite performed as well as we expected him to post update, even with optimal builds. Looks like we were a bit off in terms of how much power he'd get from learning curve. Giving him a bit more mid combat durability in particular as a result, with a stronger heal when he uses his Q on champions

Tanks don't have in-combat sustain, Meddler. item 3083

A tank is not supposed to take damage and come back with a surprise burst of healing. That's what juggernauts do. DrMundo Darius Illaoi Volibear Yorick .

A tank is supposed to absorb and mitigate large amounts of burst damage. They do this by having high stats in the first place.

Nunu has low power because his role demands high stats and you carved his stats into nothing. Nunu's base health and health per level are TERRIBLE and the compensation he gets for that is a high scaling shield on his ultimate, which is something he can only use AFTER he's charged through a bunch of skill shots to get to the enemy team. That's not tanking. That's some kind of weird initiating juggernaut.

Tyberius114 votes

{quoted}

  • Maokai - Considering a few different buffs aimed primarily at buffing his jungling, given he's performing quite a bit weaker there than in lane.

Meddler make Maokai’s saplings prioritize champions in lane like Liss’s new passive. That and possibly reverting his saplings to when his tank update came out and max W root to 1.5 seconds. All will help significantly and put him back into popular play.

Butt Stuff 20163 votes

This could work! Do this please Meddler.

BigFBear4 votes

{quoted}

  • Jungle XP

Changes to the jungle earlier in the year, including the removal of the overlevelled xp penalty, mean junglers are often getting quite a bit more XP than they were previously, which can include them being highest or highest equal level on their team a bit more than we believe is appropriate. We're cutting the amount jungle XP scales over time back slightly as a result. Change we're testing involves camps giving the same amount of XP at game start, but scaling 5% slower over time.

Wtf. I am already 2 or sometimes even 3 Lvls behind with Volibear in jungle!

Wow... Can't wait to be 4 lvls behind now!

Great change.

ToXav3 votes

I think that tank Viktor is bad for the Game he is too save in Lane against most Matchups, he is too easy to pick up and deals too much dmg for the Items he buys. I feel extremly frustrated playing against him as a Toplaner. He only dies if he messes up horrible or gets ganked the howl game. Sry for my bad english I´m just a little bit frustrated and wanted to share that. I don`t hate Viktor as an Champion I love to play the Ap Variant Myself but I feel dirty playing Tank Viktor.

SKHynix3 votes

If you guys are nerfing jung exp remove fucking RNG and plants,and bring back camp smite buffs so jungle will be more enjoyable.

Wilyum2 votes

These jungle xp nerfs are too brutal for junglers who do not have the clear speed of someone like Graves, the only time I ever see a jungler the highest level is if they are fed, afk farming, or just leeching farm off lanes. Junglers without wave clear already have a hard enough time trying to jungle now stop it.

StarGuardianNekø1 votes

How come with the victor nerfs there isnt a change to his upgraded q movementspeed which allow him to kite almost every top laner but instead there was a change to his base damage?

P2mn7 votes

{quoted}

How come with the victor nerfs there isnt a change to his upgraded q movementspeed which allow him to kite almost every top laner but instead there was a change to his base damage?

Because they are trying to nerf tank viktor and not ap viktor..

Shen MD1 votes

Hey Meddler! Is there any chance you guys are working on Shen? It's getting so frustrating to play with, and the hopes of Shield Bash make me thing that it will lead to another nerf to our guy.

Are there ideas ideas to make Shen less useful on competitive and more usable in lower elos different increase his ult CD and lower Q damage?

Buff Riven Plz3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shen MD,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=o7Ts852E,comment-id=001f,timestamp=2018-10-31T17:13:57.834+0000)

Hey Meddler! Is there any chance you guys are working on Shen? It's getting so frustrating to play with, and the hopes of Shield Bash make me thing that it will lead to another nerf to our guy.

Are there ideas ideas to make Shen less useful on competitive and more usable in lower elos different increase his ult CD and lower Q damage?

As a top laner who mostly plays fighters I hate tanks. However if there are going to be tanks in the top lane I find shen easy to deal with.

i NeeD YouR DiE1 votes

The best way to balance Lucian Aatrox and Urgot is nerf item 3071 Why??? I think this item gives them too early spike. So 200 gold more experience is good change. Same as item 3285 For Leblanc nerf this item will be so good, because gives her early burst damage from combo W+R+Q

HungryAngry2SPP5 votes

item 3071 Garen Darius Kayn Riven Illaoi JarvanIV PykeRekSai Renekton ? item 3285 Pretty any mage?

You still think it would a good idea?

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