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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 3

RiotMeddler··1 votes·56,750 views

Hi all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Scoreboard Pings

In the 7.19 patch notes we mentioned 'You can now ping everything on the scoreboard, so knock yourself out'. As a bunch of people have noticed, that's not the case though. It's also not what was originally intended, with miscommunication resulting in a misleading patch note, our bad there. What is in, and was intended, was that you can now ping any item on the scoreboard, regardless of player or team. That seemed like a useful communication tool to offer, being able to repeatedly ping someone's KDA by contrast for example, not so constructive.


DFT uses and Runes

We've talked about this in some threads already, seems to crop up a lot as a question though so figured was worth giving our thinking a bit more visibility. There's not a direct replacement for DFT in the new Runes system and that might mean some champs have a bit of a hard time as a result. We looked at various options for something that filled the same niche, but didn't find something we felt was both helpful when it comes to balancing champs and had at least some gameplay to it. What we'll be doing as a result is looking at current DFT users and seeing how they perform once the system goes out. A lot of them should have good options already in the new system, with Phase Rush being particularly appealing on some. If some champs don't find good fits though we'll then look at a combination of individual champ buffs (if only a couple meaningfully affected), at prioritizing a new keystone that meets the needs of the champs not having their needs met, or a combination of the two.


Janna

Janna's changes in 7.19 added quite a lot of power to her and as a result we micro patched nerfs out twice. We're also testing further nerfs on the PBE, odds are high though that those don't ship. They're being tested in case we need them, current estimate at time of writing at least though is that they likely won't be necessary.


Azir, Xin Zhao, Caitlyn

Touching on the other larger changes from 7.19:

  • Azir - Is looking pretty strong, though for the first time his performance isn't extremely skewed between average and high skill players which is a good sign, since that suggests mastery as him and mastery playing against him may be scaling appropriately together. Suspicious we've made him too strong, still watching to see if that's actually the case or not though.

  • Caitlyn - Looks to be about the right spot power wise, too early to say much more.

  • Xin Zhao - Also around the right ballpark power wise. Seems to be performing quite well for an updated champ, normally there's a relearning period for a while and we're not seeing as much of that here. Might suggest he's on the strong side, could just mean he's still a fairly accessible champ as intended so that relearning period's not as rough as some.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

370 Comments

Redesignated23 votes
  • Are we ever going to see another item 3802 upgrade? It's long overdue. At least, could we separate Grievous Wounds from item 3165 and put it on an item that you need to consciously build toward, rather than an item that is the de facto best first choice on the vast majority of mages? If Grievous Wounds is going to stay in the game, mages should have access to it somewhere. That "somewhere" should not be in their core item.
  • Are we ever going to see Grievous Wounds shifted to have different amounts of healing reduction (possibly with a stacking effect from reapplication for lower-value reductions), instead of the only variable being the duration of healing reduction? A flat 40% with time applied being the sole balancing factor turns it into a really easy win-more stat.
  • Any improvements planned for item 3222? It might be gold-efficient (barely), but it doesn't feel like a useful item to have. The active has a monstrous cooldown for not even being as effective as item 3140, which is cheaper and builds into an item that feels far more useful to have. Slow immunity and some bonus Movement Speed is nice, but not even being able to get rid of a Malzahar R with it is not, and having the person you used it on immediately being caught by any number of other stuns, roots, knock-ups, or displacements that any well-rounded team is going to have feels even worse. Whenever the anti-shield item gets added in, it'll basically devolve to joke status.
  • On that note, improvements for item 3107 at some point? Repeated nerfs have made it terrible to get as a first item, which lead to item 3504 becoming problematic as enchanters had to get it first instead. With how bad Mikael's is, and Redemption having 750g of its price allotted into Mana Regen with an active that's barely noticeable until you have multiple Heal/Shield Power modifiers, Ardent Censer only really has item 3174 as competition for a first purchase, and it's not exactly good on most enchanters — especially not as their first item. Mikael's and Redemption need to be buffed so there's any reason to get them before Ardent in almost any situation.
  • Supports need more item choices. Even a role with as little variance as AP mage has more choice than support. Windspeaker's Blessing is getting removed, so shields are losing the bonus Armor and Magic Resistance they were previously applying through it; how about two new Forbidden Idol upgrades, with one giving the Armor and the other giving the Magic Resistance? It lets you build against mono-type damage teams and gives you something to think about in how you build. Tank supports desperately need more options as well — Zeke's is too unruly and unreliable; Knight's Vow is getting poached by non-supports who can use it better due to having better health and defenses; Locket feels bad to buy early because its active scales off HP but doesn't give any of its own, making the AR + MR it gives less effective, when support tanks will invariably have less of and less access to all three stats than solo-lane tanks…
Mr Wind Up Bird18 votes

A couple of things that feel a little bit strange to me about item 3802 :

  1. It seems like the best mana item for most mages, often by a wide margin.
  2. It only has one upgrade path.

This results in an awful lot of item 3165 . How big of a problem is this? Any ideas/plans to address it?

TomiMan71 votes

since there is only like 4 ap items that gives you mana and morellos is the best out of them i dont think this is a problem. Lich bane, morello, ROA, serpahs. I believe thats it. But i could be wrong

if anything they should buff/change the other mana items to make them more viable

The Last Ballad4 votes

Or they could separate the 20% mana on take down from GW, so people would actually have to itemize specifically for the GW, instead of getting 100% gold efficient stats and 2 free passives.

RiotMeddler18 votes

Agreed, that's not great. We'd like to do a pass on AP items at some point next year. At a minimum we'll need to get pre-season/runes settled a bit first though.

IzzŸ7 votes

AP items have been like this for far too long, I get that runes is a lot of work but morello's has been massively overtuned with an overly attractive build path and massively gold efficient stats and passives and it hasn't been touched since patch 6.9, which is almost 18 months ago.

Why has it been left like this for so long?

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Because it's one a few items AP users have that's actually good and if they were to nerf it without buffing items, that'd actually trash APs.

IzzŸ3 votes

I'm not saying JUST nerf morello, im saying buff the other AP items.

Raxistaicho10 votes

Now that Eve is coming out, are we going to see another Champion Roadmap this month?

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votes

Reav3 already replied to this... And its "yes".

RiotMeddler15 votes

Should be fairly soon after Evelynn comes out.

420 grams9 votes

Any thoughts on Urgot right now? His e is a movespeed loss since the beginning animation is so long and it makes him feel really clunky to use because of this.

RiotMeddler9 votes

We'll assess potential buffs in 7.21. Part of that will be based off how the change to Sterak's as melee only impacts him.

Tormentula4 votes

Forgive me if I missed something posted earlier,

but why is steraks being melee only?

The only ranged champions that frequently use the item are: Urgot KogMaw along with niche cases (usually meta trends) with Graves Kindred

Is the item that disturbing to have available to range that it needs taken away as an option? I understand stuff like tiamet needed to be melee only, and runaans had to be range only, but steraks doesn't sound that important to make melee only, especially when most range would option for hex drinker 90% of the time and its not like an entire class is abusing the item to warrant it (room to fix the abusers, if its that strong.)

I feel like I even stretched the champions I mentioned building it because I can't see anything but urgot building it over hexdrinker or GA.

EDIT: nvm, makes sense. I really was underselling the changes. [sg-zephyr]

RiotMeddler6 votes

The primary goal of Sterak's is to offer a temporary period of survivability for champions who have no choice but to get right into the midst of everything, thereby taking a lot of damage, even if they're not priority targets (mainly AOE, some opportunistic auto attacks though, especially from marksmen who are target takers rather than choosers). To survive a meaningful period there you need a lot of extra defense if you're not building primarily defense already or relying on other tools (e.g. untargetability to dodge stuff). That amount of defense however gets pretty overbearing if available to ranged champs who don't have to put themselves in those dangerous places in the first place.

Senrah7 votes

Have you considered making Frozen Mallet melee only as well? In my opinion a permanent slow isn't healthy for the game when available to ranged champions, as it becomes really hard for melee champions to interact with them at that point. It is far less problematic in the hands of melee champions, as they still put themselves in the line of fire in order to make use of it.

Häxel3 votes

I mean, you have ashe... And the slow is already reduced for range champions. As well as the stats mostly are not so attractive to range champs. I guess you mainly talk about gnar, who can realy use this item good. Other rangeusers are more niche like teemo, kennen, kogmaw or other onhitchamps. Also for reduced slows you can get item 3009 as well. And with the new item 3053 giving tenacity it should be even less of a problem to have that slow. Reind that rangechamps, even minignar, have the disadvantage of being realy squishy. Just a frozen helps not that much.

Carnicore2 votes

Ashe is the least mobile ADC in the game though. Frozen Mallet's passive is oppressive when you have it on a champion that is more mobile than the champion they're attacking.

Häxel1 votes

so which one? we can compare ashe to gnar. Items: gnar gets movementspeed from item 3071 . Ashe gets movementspeed from all these juicy item 3086 . Gnar can jump to get in range, throw his q. Ahse can ult as an engage (gnar needs to eb in big fotm for this), and use w to slow already. Ashe has the slow already lv1. Till gnar has bc/mallet a lot of time is gone. Ofc mallet is an oppresive item and maybe strong on certain champs. But this counts for other items as well. Why fixing mallet if the far stronger items bramble, knights vow, gargoyels and rightous glory exists? Also adding to my frozen counters: glory (engage only vs kite) and deadmans.

Carnicore3 votes

Gnar with Frozen Mallet is much harder to escape from than Ashe, easily. Her base movement speed is bottom-tier and Gnar has a lot of mobility in his kit. Even without Mallet, he's pretty sticky because of his Q, W, and E.

Sw4de8 votes

With % Pen being removed from masteries after so many years in the game, will items such as void staff and last whisper be buffed to compensate?

Vekkna7 votes

Runes:

  1. How are mages doing without starting pen? How are the outliers doing (Zyra, Brand)?

  2. Have you considered a DFT replacement that reduces damage by X% and applies 2X damage as a rolling dot similar to Ignite on WoW fire mages? Depending on the value of X, it could open up really cool new builds and play patterns for some champs.

IxtaliKing7 votes

Hey Meddler, are you able to tell us what other buffs were considered for Karma before you settled on that passive buff?

Also, how likely is it at this point that these current buffs will be shipped to live?

supercoolisaac6 votes

I understand not being able to ping literally everything on the scoreboard but surely being able to ping keystones would be helpful in some cases?

RiotMeddler15 votes

Definitely. That we'll get, probably in 7.22 with the launch of new runes.

XxxLumberJackxxX5 votes

Can you give some thoughts on how you choose champs? As a xin player I just can't fathom how he got work before Volibear

RiotMeddler27 votes

We were confident we could improve Xin meaningfully enough with a small update and that's what we had space for in people's schedules. Volibear by contrast we tried a smaller update on a while back and concluded to make him both effective and healthy he'd need larger work.

JimmyRevSullivan5 votes

Any plans on DrMundo ?? I think he deserve a VGU,the MR buff was pretty cool but he feels outdated in gameplay because he's too much of a stat check champion(Health Regen,Bonus Ad,Tenacity,MR) and his visuals are very outdated... He's the same for years and years Anything is planned for him in the next year?

PS: English is not my main language,sry if i misspelled anything

RiotMeddler11 votes

We'd like to VGU Mundo someday, he shows his age across the board and yeah, things like the MR buff are more short term help than long term solution.

In terms of when he'd get a VGU that's really hard to say though, there are still quite a lot of champions also strongly in need of one. We've got through a number of the most in need over the last couple of years with champs like Poppy, Yorick, Warwick etc, still got a fairly large backlog of other champs like Mundo who also need one though.

Moonboy654 votes

backlog of needed VGUs

Amumu DrMundo Gragas Chogath Corki Jax Irelia Mordekaiser Nunu Pantheon Rammus Teemo Volibear Vladimir Zilean Shaco Skarner Morgana Janna

these are the most requested ones from what i know

Adalvar17 votes

Gragas Corki Vladimir Janna

None of these guys need VGUs...they may require visual updates, but none of them have the gameplay issues that justify the resource investment that a full Visual and Gameplay Update entails.

Kloqdq4 votes

Hey Meddler what are your thoughts of a rune that converted a turned active ability costs into HP costs after they run out of mana or meet some kind of requirement? Something to allow aggressive players to keep using abilities when they are low on mana/energy/etc but at the cost of health. Do you think something like that could work or nah?

Also can you give me a hint on what Twisted Treeline ranked rewards will be??? :)

RiotMeddler10 votes

A bloodcasting rune was an idea we kicked around at one point. Biggest issue is that it's primarily effective on champs who can find ways to trivialize its cost (e.g. strong sustain in their kits or early items). Tends to mean some champs end up having their mana costs effectively removed, even if the rune isn't strong enough to be appealing on a lot of others.

Ranked rewards isn't something I'm involved with sorry, so can't speak to that.

kullehh2 votes

let me ask this question for 5th time , what about be victorious post , meddler i am sure you can give us a hint

RiotMeddler36 votes

You can ask me as many times as you want, I'm not very involved in skin development though and even if I was I wouldn't want to undercut whatever reveal process the skins team might have in mind.

Star Of Love1 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddler13 votes

Context since for some reason they deleted their question post was basically 'Buffs for mid Zyra like Brand is getting?'

We're open to something like that yeah, especially if the Brand change goes as hoped. Suspect it wouldn't be mana though, given her needs mid are different from memory. Would still want the on kill trigger though.

Vekkna9 votes

In her MYMU thread, Riot committed to keeping her balanced for mid. Can you explain why that did not happen? I get that plans change, but shouldn't it mean something when a Rioter says "committed to keeping her viable in mid?"

If you answer, I can stop asking. =)

RiotMeddler9 votes

I haven't talked to the people involved about that statement specifically, I believe it was a case of good intent that proved much harder than they expected to follow through on. Some of that was that Zyra proved to be more of a balance challenge as a support post update than expected. Some of it is also that even of release Zyra was better as a support. We did expect her to be a mid laner primarily, especially given common wisdom at the time was that that was just what mages did. Looking back though her kit's one that matches support play a lot better than mid so we unintentionally mislead people about what they should expect from her.

To get her to both support and solo lane I believe we'd need to get a number of levers onto the kit that offer solo/CS based power to make her more effective there without creating support problems again.

Star Of Love12 votes

Has there ever been any talk about lowering base values in favor of better AP scaling on her? Just wondering if that could help gear her toward mid more?

ShadowParker6 votes

What are your thoughts on how many minions she kills lowers the time until her next seed(w) by x seconds?

That way if she's a support she won't be csing so it won't do anything for her but Midlane it'll help her trade and harass?

RiotMeddler11 votes

Something like would be pretty promising. As with the Brand mana restore certainly wouldn't solve all issues mid lane, but would likely help a bit and provide a useful balancing lever between the two positions.

BobaFlautist6 votes

Clearly I'm missing something: conventional wisdom is that shifting power between base damages and ratios is an effective way to nudge a champion towards lid or support. Zyra is known for having an unusually dramatic base/ratio spread, making it very difficult to meaningfully increase her plant damage with AP stacking.

What's the missing piece that prevents you from just shifting her damage spread from bases to ratios?

HenzoAF1 votes

Lethal Tempo used to let you transcend the Cap as a passive effect, but you updated it so the transcendence only occurs during the attack speed bonus, why did you do that? This isn't fun anymore!

RiotMeddler10 votes

Because it allowing you to break the cap anytime was a bug and never something we intended. The cap breaking's there in significant part so that the extra speed from the keystone's never wasted, even if you're otherwise AS capped.

DeadUnborn4 votes

Are you worried this rune might be overbearing when synergized with specific champions?

Twitch Ulting Kindred Ulting with a Hurricane Olaf with W Kled while dismounted Vayne's W Kog Maw

EDIT:

Kalista's Passive Azir's 3 soilder attack speed buff

Fütanari1 votes

I don't see any vayne buffs From you olafing her

RiotMeddler18 votes

{quoted}

I don't see any vayne buffs From you olafing her

As in the 7.19 changes? From what we've seen so far Vayne's doing fine after those, probably a bit stronger overall but also not bursting squishies quite as much, so so far so good.

Rayjay Redfang1 votes

Would you ever consider adding new runes or branches if you felt it was needed for some champions. I've asked this some where before but don't remember the response. And what direction will you go with future missions. I have not been liking the newer missions as much.

RiotMeddler8 votes

New runes - definitely. Expect we'll have at least some slots next year with more than 3 runes in them.

New trees - Maybe. Open to it, but want to get the current system into great shape before considering adding that much more to it.

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