Quick Gameplay Thoughts: Feb 24

RiotMeddler·Feb 24, 2017·1 votes·69,441 views

Hey folks,

More stuff on our minds below. Will touch on current crit marksmen thinking (our bad on patch note phrasing/thinking on how 7.4 affects them) and lethality at least a bit on Monday or Tuesday.

Bond of Stone

Has been in a sad state for a while. We've got a new version that'll be hitting PBE soon (today maybe?) aiming to make it a better choice while still positioning it as a thing you take if you want to be tankier and keep your allies alive. Mechanics we're testing are:

You get 5% max HP for taking it.
Enemy champs you CC get a mark on them. Other allies who auto attack that mark get healed. Healing scales with your max health.

Given the mechanics are pretty different, and it no longer directly absorbs damage, we'll also likely change the name if this approach continues to test well. Suggestions highly welcomed, in particular ones that thematically suggest big/tough (max hp boost/scaling) and helpful/protective (the heal).

Quinn, Talon and Ashe

We've been testing Quinn and Talon nerfs on the PBE on the assumption that after the Ghostblade, Edge of Night and Mastery nerfs they'll still both be too strong and will need individual attention. We're not confident we'll have a clear enough picture on that at this point by the time we need to lock 7.5 down (mid next week) so we'll be pulling those changes from 7.5 and reintroducing them into 7.6 if appropriate.

For Ashe we're on the fence as to whether the E nerf is currently needed. Thinking's trending towards not at present, looking to get some testing on it both for a possible future change if needed and so we've got the option for 7.5 if we decide it is needed. Might vanish from the PBE at some point soon.

Doran's Shield

Change has potential, but needs more time than just the 7.5 patch cycle to be done properly. Will vanish from the PBE at some point, with possible return in the next patch or two or potentially in mid-season with other defensive item changes.

Practice Mode and Bugs

We're still getting some really good bug reports helped by practice tool. One thing I did want to call out though was that there are a number of spells that will behave in a buggy way in practice tool if you're using cheat CDs because the way they're set up doesn't behave well if their CD is shorter than it would be in an actual game (buffs/debuffs that normally time out before the spell could be available again still being around etc). The intent's highly appreciated, but calling out bugs that only happen in those circumstances is much less valuable than ones that can happen in normal conditions. It's unlikely we'll fix oddities like that if they're just slight practice tool weirdness - better to put that development time into fixing other bugs that affect actual games etc.

Couple of Hotfixes yesterday

For anyone that missed it the Edge of Night hotfix nerf went out yesterday (apologies for patch notes still representing older thinking), with AD dropping by 5 and CD going up from 30s to 45s.

We also put out a hotfix to a Scuttle Crab bug where in some circumstances kill credit would be incorrectly awarded to the enemy team if they were nearby. Apologies for anyone that saw a bit of weirdness from that yesterday.

266 Comments

Variks the LoyalFeb 24, 201729 votes

{quoted}

Given the mechanics are pretty different, and it no longer directly absorbs damage, we'll also likely change the name if this approach continues to test well. Suggestions highly welcomed, in particular ones that thematically suggest big/tough (max hp boost/scaling) and helpful/protective (the heal).

I've been waiting my entire life for this moment.

Protector's Runebrand
Blessing of the Monolith
Bloodvigor Sigil
Mountain Vigilance
Patron's Tithe
Guardian's Spiritgift
Titan's Enchantment
Glyph of the Mountainborn
Celestial Harmony
Skywhite Vitality
Steadfast Rapture
Evergreen Concord
Solidarity of Eternity
Trueshield's Faith
Earthguard Absolute
Armor of the Devoted
Protectorate's Lifespark
Undying Spiritfire
Paladin's Passion (If you like alliteration)
Defender's Holy Sacrifice
Bastion of Sunrise
Lifedragon's Wombfire
Bond of the Sacrificer
Vorpal Bond (Since it's similar to Shen's old Q)

RobertsmashFeb 24, 20179 votes

Blessing of the Monolith is great

RottedApplesFeb 25, 20176 votes

Malphite MY PEOPLE

ArnoldSchwarzensFeb 24, 201718 votes

Something that would help a lot when testing your damage and builds in practice mode:

-set dummy armor -set dummy mr -set dummy hp -set dummy level

This would allow you to experiment much better with percentage damage, true damage, lethality and other forms of armor pen to see how it would affect differet types of champions in an actual game.

Dragonslayer RSFeb 24, 20175 votes

Totally agree. I cannot test the actual effect of botrk when i use it on the 10000hp dummy since no enemy will have such large amount of hp and that will over-estimate the burst damage and dps calculation while i was testing the build of champion.

Ferus and FerrumFeb 25, 20173 votes

Lategame Sion dummy

honeyboeFeb 24, 201714 votes

Reworked name for the new Bond of Stone? Mark of the Guardian? Protector's Aid? Soothing of the Giant? I'm not great with names, but I'm liking the new reworked version of Bond of Stone. : ^)

dglgmutFeb 24, 20177 votes

I actually really hope they go with mark of the guardian. It's easy to short hand it(mark) and it describes it pretty well.

Glory ln DeathFeb 24, 20175 votes

Bond of Stone rename: Guardian's Pledge

Invoking an image of a guardian who has pledged to defend and support his comrades through the toughest of battles.

ModCaptainMårvelousFeb 24, 20174 votes

If I may, might I suggest changing the name of "Bond of Stone" to "Brand of Nagakeboros"?

It's tough (Big squishy tentacle god)
It ties into how Illaoi's slam heals her.
Nagakeboros is about motion. Punishes those who stop moving (CC)
Ties into lore ala Thunderlord's Decree.

Alternatively "Mark of the Aspects" or "Titan's Brand"

If you want to be cheeky as FUCK about it?

Defense of the Ancients.

ITakeYoSandwichFeb 25, 20176 votes

DEFENSE OF THE ANCIENTS. DO IT. #meddlerplz

No Good DeedFeb 24, 20173 votes

Best Idea for the new "Bond of Stone" name would be something along the lines of "Titans Gift". So It'd be like "Titan" for big strong and stuff, and "Gift" because it's the Titan giving out the goodies as a heal. or you swap out Titan for Giant but I think Titan sounds bigger and more impactful.

Storm EchoFeb 25, 20173 votes

Spirit of the Vanguard

Piscator97Feb 25, 20173 votes

My idea for the new Bond of Stone name is Blessing of the Mountain, or something similar. Crewx gave you guys a lot of good ideas, too. Also, I was wondering if the current trend just nerfing champions and items that are too strong is here to stay, or if we can expect some buffs to champions that aren't seeing a lot of play right now as well. Making some of Camille's more rarely-seen counters in top lane stronger, for example, could be an interesting way to balance her.

PurgamentiumFeb 25, 20173 votes

How about: Vitality of the Vanguard Sigil of the Stonewarden Tribute of the Titan

SherogarthFeb 26, 20173 votes

Maybe "Runic Bastion"? It was a name of great defensive item and it fits well. Other ideas: "Blessing of the Mountain" "Earth's Embrace" "Rune of the Guardian" "Warden's Gift"

ShínyFeb 24, 20172 votes

Could you talk a bit about the miss fortune change on the PBE right now?

RiotMeddlerFeb 24, 20174 votes

We're aiming to put some form of reward for hitting with bounce that first killed someone back on the kit (skill expression/mastery point). Probably won't be damage though.

honeyboeFeb 24, 20174 votes

{quoted}

We're aiming to put some form of reward for hitting with bounce that first killed someone back on the kit (skill expression/mastery point). Probably won't be damage though.

How about instead of giving your Q damage after killing the unit, it gives MF 10 mana back on kill? (20 if both Q's kill). Then making her Q mana cost be 40/45/50/55/60? It wouldn't add the same raw power from the 50% damage but it'll reward her for killing a target with her Q.

Hexs FortuneFeb 24, 201710 votes

{quoted}

How about instead of giving your Q damage after killing the unit, it gives MF 10 mana back on kill? (20 if both Q's kill). Then making her Q mana cost be 40/45/50/55/60? It wouldn't add the same raw power from the 50% damage but it'll reward her for killing a target with her Q.

Mana is a pretty poor reward to be honest

AveriaFeb 25, 20171 votes

There isn't a much better reward you can give, especially for a spell that is basically guaranteed to kill casters at 1.5-2 items.

A MS buff would probably be OP, a damage bonus we've already seen how OP that is. HP back maybe? She's already a bully in lane, rewarding her with HP regen for doing standard Q play is kinda meh.

Not saying mana back is a good one really either, but there isn't a good reward to give her that doesn't break her.

Cosmic WarperFeb 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

There isn't a much better reward you can give, especially for a spell that is basically guaranteed to kill casters at 1.5-2 items.

A MS buff would probably be OP, a damage bonus we've already seen how OP that is. HP back maybe? She's already a bully in lane, rewarding her with HP regen for doing standard Q play is kinda meh.

Not saying mana back is a good one really either, but there isn't a good reward to give her that doesn't break her.

Or you could make it reset the love tap on the target.

5000000000000000Feb 25, 20172 votes

If the first Q kills the target, it can't reset love tap. If the first Q doesn't kill the target and bounces, it resets love tap by putting it on someone else.

Hexs FortuneFeb 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

We're aiming to put some form of reward for hitting with bounce that first killed someone back on the kit (skill expression/mastery point). Probably won't be damage though.

A brief slow/speed up and love tap reset on Q crit to allow MF the opportunity to get another shot in sounds like a good plan. Allows for more counterplay

AribailoFeb 25, 20172 votes

A potential name for the mastery could be Titan's Benevolence.

SteelMankindFeb 25, 20172 votes

Bastion's Blessing? for renaming Bond of Stone

KorrbyFeb 25, 20172 votes

I really like "Guardian's Embrace" for the Bond of Stone name, personally.

FathirianHoundFeb 26, 20172 votes

What about Titan's Oath for the new Bond of Stone name?

MrBuffingtonFeb 24, 20171 votes

The Bond of Stone changes look really cool, but I have a few question:

Does the Bond of Stone change work on all forms of CC (ie. slows), or just hard CC? Also, how do you see this differing from Courage of the Colossus? It seems the basic premise is that CoC is for Vanguards/initiators, where BoS is for Wardens/defensive tanks, but I'm just wondering how you view things, so one doesn't completely overshadow the other in terms of stat/point efficiency.

Finally, is there a cooldown/limit on marking people, since I think that could be a big deal in terms of distinguishing the two. For example, it may be more worthwhile for Leona to take BoS and just give her teammates a ton of heals on initiating, instead of shielding herself with CoC (especially since it synergizes with her passive), where it seems generally more fitting for Leona to take CoC since she initiates a lot of fights. Thanks!

RiotMeddlerFeb 24, 20179 votes

Any CC.

CotC is intended to be personal initial survivability for those champs, whereas Bond should be the thing you go to for a mixture of personal benefit and team contribution.

No CD on marking or triggering, most of the heal is a heal over time though so stacking, rapid triggering etc don't get nuts. I'd expect Leona to still gravitate to CotC more, someone like Braum on the other hand should have a lot of interest in this version of Bond (or whatever it ends up being called).

KengyFeb 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Any CC.

CotC is intended to be personal initial survivability for those champs, whereas Bond should be the thing you go to for a mixture of personal benefit and team contribution.

No CD on marking or triggering, most of the heal is a heal over time though so stacking, rapid triggering etc don't get nuts. I'd expect Leona to still gravitate to CotC more, someone like Braum on the other hand should have a lot of interest in this version of Bond (or whatever it ends up being called).

Please don't tie multiple tank keystones to CC. Leaving Grasp as the only viable tank keystone for champs that don't have CC is really feelsbadman.

Glory ln DeathFeb 24, 20173 votes

How many tanks have 0 CC?

Vellich0rFeb 25, 20173 votes

0, almost every champ in the game has at least something that would proc this keystone.

5000000000000000Feb 25, 20172 votes

Just as a reference, here's a list of champions who has no CC naturally (excluding silence and death) Ezreal Garen Katarina Lucian MasterYi Mordekaiser Nidalee Sivir

That's 8 out of 134, and Ezreal usually builds IBG, and Morde usually builds Rylai's.

Vellich0rFeb 26, 20171 votes

gracias, fine sir. So, assuming meddler's comment includes silences, there are zero tanks who can't proc the mastery and only 5 champions who don't almost always spec into items that would proc the mastery for them.

5000000000000000Feb 26, 20173 votes

On top of that, Garen and Mordekaiser aren't even actual tanks. They're tanky, and can serve as a frontline presence, but they aren't tanks. They're fighters, and more specifically juggernauts. Tanks are CC threats by definition, so the concept of CC-less tank makes no sense.

Vellich0rFeb 26, 20171 votes

ah, yes. Important distinction, though garen does fit into the tank category very well with the amount of innate tankiness in his kit he is still most definitely a juggernaut. I'm not sure if mundo is considered a tank or juggernaut though, so depending on how he is defined he has virtually no CC.

5000000000000000Feb 26, 20173 votes

Pretty sure Mundo is a juggernaut also.

TTK DreadnoughtFeb 24, 20179 votes

Tanks with no CC? They must not be a tank.

Anyway, its a defensive tree, not tank tree. But as i mentioned with a suggestion above, it should remain passive like or more defensive than the others.

La BelloFeb 25, 20172 votes

Does the healing from the new bond apply "on-heal" item effects such as item 3504 or item 3174 ? can it be amplified by Healing % amplifiers?

RiotRiot Wav3BreakFeb 24, 20174 votes

{quoted}

The Bond of Stone changes look really cool, but I have a few question:

Does the Bond of Stone change work on all forms of CC (ie. slows), or just hard CC? Also, how do you see this differing from Courage of the Colossus? It seems the basic premise is that CoC is for Vanguards/initiators, where BoS is for Wardens/defensive tanks, but I'm just wondering how you view things, so one doesn't completely overshadow the other in terms of stat/point efficiency.

Finally, is there a cooldown/limit on marking people, since I think that could be a big deal in terms of distinguishing the two. For example, it may be more worthwhile for Leona to take BoS and just give her teammates a ton of heals on initiating, instead of shielding herself with CoC (especially since it synergizes with her passive), where it seems generally more fitting for Leona to take CoC since she initiates a lot of fights. Thanks!

Q1: Yep, works on all CC effects, including slows, blinds, grounded, etc. And yes this mastery is intended to be more powerful for more defensive champions who don't lean on initiation as much to express power.

Q2: There is no cooldown or limit. You can mark whole enemy teams if you buy Rylais as Amumu, constantly and forever. Thoughts here are that if item interactions prove to be overly game wapring, we would tone it down to being based off ability driven CC effects, preserving the synergies we wanted. From our tests, it hasn't been too oppressive in the infinite case, but obviously we could be off. In the meantime, letting it synergize with item purchases is pretty cool from a play style stand point. I think we've actually enriched your strategies for winning on a champion like Leona if you can see a new item path that enables a more supportive style in a particular game by taking this new mastery. If this proves to be abusive however, we will have solutions prepared.

MrBuffingtonFeb 25, 20175 votes

Q2: There is no cooldown or limit. You can mark whole enemy teams if you buy Rylais as Amumu, constantly and forever.

Support Ashe inc.

LùmenFeb 25, 20171 votes

This is going to be much more frustrating than MF support.. I can already see how Rox are gonna surprise pick it the next time if this goes through

5000000000000000Feb 25, 20173 votes

It'll most likely be weak in laning phase, and if Ashe were to take this keystone, she'd need to stack so much HP to make use of it. The healing is 5+2.5% max HP over 2 seconds, reduced by half for ranged.

Even if she builds 6 Warmog's, she'd have about 6000-7000 HP, which translates to about 90 Health per second. For the entire team, that's 360 health per second.

...wait, that doesn't sound too bad.

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 24, 20171 votes

The new Bond of Stone only heals other allies right? Does it also apply on slows in any form or only hard CC?

RiotMeddlerFeb 24, 20174 votes

Oh, yeah, other allies only. I'll add that to the original post. We looked at versions without that restriction, but they went nuts on some champs from the personal benefit alone.

Tenth LeperFeb 24, 20171 votes

I am very excited about the bond of stone changes. Everybody gets to be shen! (Especially Naut). I will return to this thread later with real name suggestions, but at present only have stuff like "overflowing vigor" or "boundless generousity".

Quick question though. Will this mastery work with non-item soft cc or is it hard cc only like CoC? Because I would very very much like to use it on nunu.

Thanks for all you do.

RiotMeddlerFeb 24, 20175 votes

Any CC (hard or soft, kit or item) is what we're trying right now.

DeathBurstFeb 24, 20171 votes

No worries about Rylai abuses? Especially for people like Morde or Singed who are melee.