Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 10

RiotMeddler·Oct 10, 2018·1 votes·173,333 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

Removal of the jungle funneling penalty

As mentioned when it was introduced one of our goals for preseason is to remove the jungle funneling penalty (Monster Hunter). That penalty was added to discourage funneling both jungle and lane farm onto one champion without interacting much in either position with the enemy.

Our current belief is that two of the preseason changes should reduce the appeal of funneling enough we can remove Monster Hunter without an explicit replacement:

Bounty scaling - Bounties will now be scaling somewhat off minions/monsters killed, not only off champions killed. That means that focusing farm so heavily on one champ becomes a bigger risk, with greater payout for the enemy if they can shut them down, given better options against funnel strats.
Barricade (temp name) gold - Being able to gain rewards from pushing on a tower even if you can't take it down entirely makes leaving a lane uncontested a higher price to pay. That also reduces the appeal of funneling play in most circumstances.

We're still testing whether the combination of those two things should be enough. Looks hopeful so far though.

How popular are the different queues?

Something I thought it would be good to share was a look at how popular the different queue types in LoL are, both from an overall perspective and looking at how they vary region to region. Chart below showing a % breakdown (hours played in each mode) in early September for a few regions with different habits.

https://imgur.com/a/7ClMRFs

Looking at the regions shown:

Overall - None of the regions, whether those shown here or the others not listed, is highly representative of the overall average. Every region has at least one queue in which they're noticeably divergent from average play rates.
Korea - Korean players like solo queue a lot more than those from other regions, with low play in normals as a result. They play average amounts of ARAM, but have low interest in other modes compared to players elsewhere (e.g. Nexus Blitz or most RGMs we've run in the past).
NA - NA Players play less Flex than almost every other region. They're bigger fans of non SR modes, with the most Nexus Blitz play of any region and nearly the most TT play (EUW has slightly more TT games).
Brazil - Brazil's a newer region and so players there follow a couple of trends we see on newer servers, with more normal play and Co-op versus AI than average and less ARAM.

Some small item/rune changes in 8.21

We’ve got some small adjustments to a few items in 8.21, bit of context:

Essence Reaver - Cutting 200g off the cost as short term help. Might have something larger for it later in the year, want to make it a better regardless now though.
Edge of Night - Cost reduction by 200g as well. No current plans for changing its functionality, think we’ve definitely got it overpriced though.
Time Warp Tonic - We’re looking at different possible ways to nerf TWT, given the amount of health/mana restoration it’s offering is excessive. Current version in testing is a change where instead of offering increased duration and MS during the duration it instead gives some restoration up front, doesn’t change duration at all and still gives the movement speed.

254 Comments

Sakura RainOct 10, 20189 votes

Wait so you're literally punished for csing well? What on earth?

RiotMeddlerOct 10, 201825 votes

LoL's always had ramping gold bounties. Those have been based purely off champion kills up until now however, so they do 'punish' you for doing well/give the enemy a chance to catch up, but only reflecting certain types of success. We're looking to shift bounties from being 100% champion kill based to something like 70% champion/30% minion or monster. That better reflects actual advantage and removes a soft incentive to just farm and minimize risk (so many reasons to do that already regardless).

The Yetii RiderOct 11, 20187 votes

What about supports? If the enemy Soraka is 0/0/20 and I take her down, do I just get 300 gold because she has 0 CS?

RealČernochHoursOct 12, 20183 votes

With the current bounties you would only get 300 gold for her too

Guardian DevilOct 10, 20189 votes

Are there any plans to do a Lulu Lulu visual update to be in par with tristana and poppy Poppy ?

ZkaiserOct 10, 20189 votes

So when are you deleting TT?

RiotMeddlerOct 10, 201819 votes

We had a chat recently about our different queues. Issue of whether we should replace TT with something else did get raised, given its play rate ranges from extremely low in regions like NA and EU to effectively non existent in most other regions. We concluded we should still keep it despite that, though I expect we'd want to revisit that if things changed (e.g. if it's play rate declines further).

For reference, Dominion was substantially lower in play rate again than current TT when we made the call to remove it.

UltîmaOct 10, 201818 votes

Isn't there just a critical lack of support for TT which makes it impossible for players to get invested in the first place? Dominion suffered from this issue as well. Alternative map modes cannot succeed if catered balance changes to them are non-existent.

ShadowParkerOct 10, 201828 votes

Have you ever considered bringing more awareness to it?

Stuff like offering a victorious chroma for being in gold in TT was a great incentive. I’d like to see more of that.

Perhaps, could we get some pros to play on the map for fun sort of like magma chamber? It’d be a great way to introduce people to the map and I guarantee lots of people would watch it because pros have never played on that map before.

Other than that devoting some time to the mode would be tremendous but that’s already been talked about.

MinardeOct 10, 201819 votes

Along the same line as increasing awareness, reducing exclusion could also help. For instance, Ranked TT is the only ranked queue that doesn't award Mastery tokens, and Twisted Treeline is the only PvP game mode not included in the current Worlds Missions.

Tenth LeperOct 10, 201813 votes

If you add mastery tokens to TT I will play it exclusively over SR. Just sayin.

FlemmanOct 10, 20186 votes

Instead of removing it, just made the call to finally allowing us, avid 3v3 player, to gain mastery token in the mode. It could also bring new player to know you can go elsewhere than the rift when you want to go for those (especially when the SR stay in a horrible state for a long time that it's not really funny to play it)

We have wait enough now :D (2/3 years of you thinking about it?)

Another think who could help, inclusve mission, not the typical 5v5 pvp only we get recently

VekknaOct 10, 20186 votes

If you build it, they will come.

You don't treat TT seriously, and that obviously filters out into the player base. That pisses me off because TT is great at testing a very different skillset than SR, and it does so in a way that is fun and impactful. The horrendous balance on the map used to make it a lot less fun than SR, but it's not much different from SR these days.

Honestly, TT is a fun mode with a good design that has always deserved better treatment than Riot has given it. Despite its flaws, the core is solid and delivers something unique from SR. What would be the point in deleting it just to create something new if you're going to ignore the new mode as well?

Also, Shadow Isles don't get enough attention. Lorewise, the alter interactions are some great easter eggs.

DesaesidOct 11, 20187 votes

TT feels like it got left behind and forgotten. When it was initially reworked, there was about a year or so when there was a lot of follow-up and love for it in balance patches and changes. Now, there are times I see that a change that went live on SR several patches ago was only just added to TT, as if nobody remembered to update it until somebody pointed it out. It would be great to see it get a little more love again; nowhere near as much as it got when it was reworked (I doubt the returns on player interest would be anywhere near the investment Riot would be putting into the mode), but just enough to keep it feeling like it's an actual alternative map/mode to play.

When Nexus Blitz was around, it received balance changed every 3 days or so; nothing major, but small tweaks to bring champions a little more in line. The changes came out so quickly that I have to assume they were done almost solely off of win/pick rate stats, and much less off of critical thought and analysis that SR changes get. I think that level of balancing, pure stat balancing, would be perfect for TT. You could have a small team of people, just a handful, take a look every week or two at TT stats, and knock out a few number tweaks. Once a year, during preseason or some other arbitrary time, you could roll out a bigger patch, tweaking items, jungle and tower balancing, buff or altar effects, more of the critical analysis type balancing. Just once a year on big changes, and tiny number tweaks throughout the year, and I think TT would feel MUCH more fun to play, a much less like a forgotten stepchild.

That said, I doubt you'd get more than double its current players at any point, AT BEST, so maybe even that much investment isn't worth the effort. But, personally, just having the mode feel like it's cared about, and being able to see a variety of champions on it instead of the same archetypes over and over (looking at you, juggernauts/assassins) would make it feel like a lot better.

Also, love your updates Meddler, thanks for sharing and caring with us.

QuarryOct 10, 20188 votes

Hey Meddler,

what's about Zoe Zoe - do you have any information about changes?

RiotMeddlerOct 10, 20188 votes

Changes we were testing a few patches back haven't worked out overall, pulling back on those. Will be looking at some simpler changes potentially in the next patch or two, can't make any promises about what or if something will ship though yet.

shofazOct 10, 20188 votes

Any future plans and any thoughts on https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/a3/ViktorSquare.png/revision/20150105215536

UFOroidOct 10, 20187 votes

Hi Meddler, for the Tank Pyke balancing in 8.21, would you consider making his passive healing weaker if he has too many resists (like 100+ armor)?

Right now he uses the healing+resistances to bypass the health conversion that was supposed to stop him from getting too tanky, and its frustrating for players to deal with someone who can heal 800 effective HP in a few seconds.

RiotMeddlerOct 10, 20185 votes

We're trying something with a similar result, though different way of getting there - AD ratios on healing with a lower base. Haven't had that in much testing yet, coming to it from the same logic you outline though.

Star WeàverOct 10, 20187 votes

what do you think about the midlane ,I'm talking about the champ diversity, i have the feeling to see every time the same champ ( Fizz Leblanc Akali Ahri Zed Kassadin ) Yasuo and it's little frustrating .Have you plan do to something to saw these champ more frequently ( Anivia Annie Azir Cassiopeia Corki Ekko Galio Heimerdinger Karthus Karma Jayce Kayle Orianna Taliyah Syndra Swain Velkoz Veigar Viktor Vladimir Xerath Ziggs Zilean Zyra )

r xyOct 10, 201811 votes

Mid lane has the most champion diversity of any lane at worlds. The reason why you might see those champions less is not balance but just preference. most of them are absolutely viable but people just dont like to play them as much as the flashy assassins. that is pretty much impossible to fix without Gameplay updates (wouldnt even be a great idea. turning everyone into an assassin would suck). Just turning up their numbers would be a terrible idea since most of them are pretty balanced at the moment.

DeathfallOct 10, 20187 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/VVQiBH5b-new-karma-rework-not-addressing-any-issues-meddler

Meddler, if the Karma rework is not addressing a single of her massive problems, why are you even bothering with her? It was said her direction and identity is not being touched. It was said that her art is not being touched. It was said her theme is not being touched. Finally, her gameplay is hardly being touched.

No new passive.
Most likely no Shield Bomb.
No new Q or Mantra Q.
W and Mantra W is still going to have the same problems the previous one had. Nothing specific and gives her no direction, but can be abused in another role.
No fans and no art updates to actually finish the garbage you gave us.

What are you accomplishing with Karma then? You value the opinions of new players that are the first ones to throw her away and insult people, but you refuse to listen to the actual playerbase that cares about this champion for the past five years. You created the division and you created the mess. I told you several years ago you were going to use time as an excuse to do nothing on this champion. You did it.

BadPiriPiriOct 10, 20185 votes

Any thoughts about how item 3151 changes went? Did it reach your goal?

gg git diffOct 10, 20185 votes

How do the popularities compare between normal blind pick and draft pick?

RiotMeddlerOct 10, 20188 votes

Depends enormously on the region. NA from memory for example has a even (ish) split, while some regions have much more play in blind. Tends to be somewhat associated with amount of play in flex queue too, with regions with higher flex play rates generally showing lower normal draft, suggesting the two are heavily overlapped in terms of how many players tend to view them.

MetaKaizerOct 10, 20185 votes

Thoughts on Zilean and are there any planned changes for him?

RiotMeddlerOct 10, 20189 votes

Theme and gameplay are distinct, though also quite niche in their appeal. Wouldn't look to substantially change either though. Counterplay can be a bit limited at times, but not critically so.

Visually he holds up ok. Showing his age a bit, pardon the phrase, but not to the same degree as other older champs.

Wouldn't prioritize any major work for him as a result.

Solidair3Oct 10, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Visually he holds up ok. Showing his age a bit, pardon the phrase, but not to the same degree as other older champs.

Wouldn't prioritize any major work for him as a result.

Normally I'm with you Meddler, and yes, champs like Morde obviously need work more but... His visuals are awful. His rig is ugly and rigid, his animations are terrible. The only thing that's good are his VFX, and only because they were updated. Additionally, his VO is lacking. You can't possibly tell me he isn't in the top 10 that need visual overhauls.

AlzonOct 11, 20182 votes

Zilean’s VO is perfect 😡 You can reliably spam his joke, taunt, OR laugh and have loads of fun.

Solidair3Oct 11, 20183 votes

I agree! preserve his joke and such, but his VO could definitely be more EXPANSIVE. Bring back the same voice actor if possible.

ModJango MageOct 10, 20185 votes

Can we expect some rune changes preseason?

VekknaOct 10, 20185 votes

Just stopping by to see nothing about Zyra bugs and plants.

Looking forward to next week's regularly scheduled dose of crickets.

GaliöOct 10, 20184 votes

I knew TT had a small community but THAT small. Kind of a shame.

Also on top my my constant outcries over the galio rework I had posted on the Gameplay+ Forum:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-plus/bzzOsuXW-why-there-should-be-a-partial-revert-to-galios-w

It's not getting much traction, prob due to galio not being super popular...still, but I was wondering how many rioters look at those posts?

I had a much larger post on reddit covering the same ideaology to have a partial revert to Galios W to give him a similar feel and why it would work better in lore and gameplay.

Is it possible that Galio can get one of his old mechanics back one day?

SonicÐeHedgedawgOct 10, 20184 votes

How do you feel about the variety of champs we're seeing at worlds?

RiotMeddlerOct 10, 201816 votes

Fairly good so far, though as I write this I'm still catching up on last night's games. Seeing some champs with a really high pick/ban rate and variety in some positions that's lower than I'd personally prefer. Doesn't feel like the meta's solidified yet, expecting we'll see some trends emerge as more games get played and we see some teams for the first time (e.g. suspect Aatrox's perceived value will drop over time).

Also been very glad to see a couple of non marksmen picks bot. Would prefer to see a bit more of that, though that's been a challenging balance to get right this season so not unhappy with where we're at for now.

ProfDrDeathOct 10, 20184 votes

Good evening (local time) Meddler,

is there any chance that we might get Quinn to be "Quinn and Valor" again? With her ult becoming less of a taxi mode and more of a murderbird?

Like this following idea:

Champion renamed to "Quinn and Valor"

Ultimate renamed Tag Team, retains all current functions and gains the following additions:

When casting her ultimate, Quinn is replaced by Valor (no more taxibird, murderburd is back)

Valor has 125 attack range, but maybe gains a bit of (base) AD or on-hit damage or higher base AS

Valor casts Q as a PBAoE, his first auto after the cast applies and consumes Harrier

Using E as Valor dashes him to attack range of target enemy

Quinn and Valor share cooldowns

In Valor form, Harrier's visuals lack the swoop down of the eagle. Instead, the mark is indicated by a single crossbow bolt.

Mostly for nostalgic reasons. By not giving Valor (a melee champion) benefits beyond the changed Q targeting paradigm, Quinn's power level should not change too drastically, especially since Quinn and Valor share cooldowns (and an E as a gapcloser cannot be used as a gapopener until the regular cooldown has passed).

SpideraxeOct 10, 20183 votes

also do you have the full changelist for Kai'Sa

RiotMeddlerOct 10, 20186 votes

We're still working on nailing down details there. What should be in for testing today:

Passive damage - 10% Missing HP (+27.5-110% AP based on target % missing health) instead of 15% + (3.75% per 100AP) Missing HP

Q Mana - 67 down to 55, instead of just a flat 55

UltîmaOct 10, 20183 votes

Hey Meddler, there's been a recent reveal about a new Fiora walking animation (the version with her arm behind her back looks incredibly good). Are there plans to touch-up other champions whose art and gameplay are otherwise up-to-par with modern League standards, or to add entirely new suites of animations since some champions lack some of the newer sets that new champions have such as a slowed/sped-up/hitting tower animation?

On that same note, will the animators ever finish Aatrox' wings? They just appear into existence rather than fold/unfold on his back. It looks very unfinished.

HeroicSuitcaseOct 10, 20183 votes

I saw that Rek' sai was mentioned in the previous update and I wanted to express my thoughts on the champion currently. Rek' sai has been pretty underwhelming for almost the entire season, and I feel that she needs to be reverted so that she is played as a full tank. Currently she is the worst champion in the game after 15 minutes. A former LCS analyst agrees with me on that point. She has the same pitfalls as Rengar before his initial rework, being that she is a squishy champion that has to dive into a team and will either trade a kill or simply die. Rek' sai is even worse than old Rengar because she cant simply instakill a squishy target, due to the fact that she has to first knock the squishy up, Q-AA-AA in order to get full rage and then E for the true damage. Most of the time this isn't even enough to kill a squishy, whereas old Rengar could simply triple Q and instakill. Furthermore, Rek' sai's ultimate is one of the worst abilities in the game. This is due to the fact that it is so telegraphed; everyone can see the animation begin, and the animation is quite long. Additionally, her ultimate can be dodged by every single champion in the game because essentially everyone takes flash. Champions with a dash such as Lucian or Graves can also avoid her ultimate simply by dashing away. Her ultimate does a good amount of damage, but it's simply not enough to make up for how bad the rest of it is. Also, if a champion survives your ultimate, it is very difficult to continue chasing them down with autos because of the animation of the leap. This is one of my biggest problems with this champion. She feels clunky to play in that regard. Rek' sai is also very immune to CC, which isn't a problem only she faces, but when built damage oriented, she gets blown up before she can do anything. Another glaring problem with Rek' sai is her W. Her W is very bad currently, much worse than it was before her rework. The knock-up only affecting one target is pretty bad, considering most champions can simply just kite away from her. Another obvious problem with her W is that it does not prioritize champions. This leads to situations where an enemy can simply run into a minion wave to avoid being knocked-up, which makes Rek' sai's ganks useless. This would be solved by reverting her so that the W can knock-up multiple champions, with the knock-up duration dependent on how close Rek' sai is to the enemy champion. Additionally, her passive healing is pretty much negligible; when clearing with her you still get relatively low. Reverting her to her previous form would fix all of these issues. When built as tank, she could dive into a fight and knock up multiple champions. She still has no escape, but she is meant to soak up damage so this is not an issue. As tank, she can also face-check without dying instantly. If reverted, she could also get multiple knock-ups off in a single team-fight, due to the fact that she would be tankier and her per-target knock-up CD would be lower. As a said before, current Rek' sai is completely useless in team-fights because enemy champions can simply walk away from her to avoid the knock-up. Tarzaned recently released a tier list video and he placed her in the lowest or next to lowest tier. Valkrin also expressed that Rek' sai is an awful champion. It would make sense for her to receive the Rengar/ Leblanc treatment.

TL:DR Rek' sai is a bruiser with assassin scaling. Her passive, W, and ultimate are very bad abilities with glaring problems that have yet to be addressed. Even after her recent buffs in patch 8.14, she is still one of the worst junglers in the game at all levels of play. Rek' sai needs to recieve the Rengar/ Leblanc treatment. Her old kit was much better than her current one. Tank Rek' sai is much more useful and reliable than damage oriented Rek' sai.

giannishannibalOct 10, 20182 votes

Riot Meddler , did inspiration tree for the eyes of the devs is actually a total failure? I mean klepto is nerfed, unsealed textbook is mediocre at best, glacial is still untouched, minion dematterelizer was changed, boots rune got the wooping 50 g discount removed, once upon a time there was celestial body( very good with illaoi) but it got removed , early stopwatch got nerfed really hard, and now you are changing the time warp tonic. I mean inspiration tree is at very best bad to take as a whole and now you are even making it worst. Why bother with these patches and not remove it completely?

DeathBurstOct 10, 201810 votes

Your assumption here is that the Runes which were nerfed are now bad. That's not how balance work, though. Those Runes were TOO strong and so after the nerf they are OK, not bad.

giannishannibalOct 10, 20181 votes

Not bad. ok , Celestial body gave 100 hp but you dealt 10% less damage for the first 10 mins so it helped you with all the damage going on in early and able to avoid 1 death at best- yeah with the early damage creep that was so busted and mainly ilaoi used it because she was tanky and high base damage- so OP that it had to be removed. Pre Unsealed spell book in solo queue wasnt ever THAT dominant-strong if you could exploit it in full true but not in solo queue,however in pro scene was spammed cause in coordianted teams you can get INSANE value. Stopwatch-omg like we couldnt figure that easily accesible 1 time death saving conssummable wouldnt be broken but we put it regardless but when the pro scene became boring cause no kill were happening due to stopwatch Riot became "OMG its too safe of a tool,lets nerf it" <- this was a good decision dont missunderstand me. The boots- you dont have boots for 10 min-30 secs for each kill/assist and you cant buy it early and you save just 300 g, gave a WHOOPY 50 gold discount form tier 2 boots ( WOW thats game breaking,so op) and give 10 MS more but yeah thank god there is diminishing vallue in MS and u cant reach 440 MS so easily- this was a good TRADE cause if you overextend and died and didnt have tp you would waste so much time walking back in lane so the enemy would get so much of a big lead, now they are even less users that take it( urgot maybe yi). Kleptomancy was Main issue was with Ezreal Q which cost 28 mana and low cd at lv 1 and it was long range and easy to hit as result Ez go so much gold and consummables that helped him so much that he reached his late game build way earlier that all the champs. The other main users of kleptomancy were GP and illaoi- GP q cost alot of mana and if you used it on enemy you were losing silver kraken to upgrade his ult and illaoi w is telegraphed ability that you just need to back off and she wouldnt get anything+ illaoi in early is she spams her W she would have mana issues. Well I believe that Riot should remove the interaction between klepto and Ezreal Q and Gp Q and it would ok. But now even GP and Illaoi have changed to grasp of the undying and use it sparringly. Now Glasial is now the new Klepto, which ahri spams it and it slowly becomes a possible issue.

Now from the other hand the cookies, the hexflash, the other one that allows you to go negative in order to buy, and the rune for 45% cdr builds, and minion dematerilizer and time warp tonic are the successfull ones than i believe its for the most part balanced. But overall the inspiration tree is at best a secondary tree for most champions sooooo thats why i asked them if the devs believe it was a failure cause it almost no- existance ( Other runes have the same problem like Phase Rush who see some uses from Asol,Cass, maybr ryze and i have seen some darius and garen with fun runes-items in very rare cases). I repeat i believe that Riot is completly killing slowly the inspiration tree and i like it from the 1st week it got out and i find it sad to nerf it to the ground.

DeathBurstOct 10, 20182 votes

tl;dr

You don't need to describe what every single Rune do, mate, I know it myself. What's your point?

giannishannibalOct 10, 20181 votes

You said that now they are balanced , for the most part inspiration tree AS a whole is underpowered to the point that it became a niche tree for very rare situations already and they change tonic now ( i keep open mind for this change that maybe its ok) but glacial is steadily becomes a problematic rune ( ahri ,sion,) and if they nerf it too then the inspiration will become a secondary tree- almost never again will be taken as primary for the most champions.

DeathBurstOct 10, 20185 votes

Inspiration was always supposed to be niche. It's the most difficult to use, with hard problems to optimize. But that does NOT mean it's underpowered. It's used less because most people just want the simple builds that give straight power, not complex builds that change the way you play.

So if the only thing that makes you think "it's under powered" is "because it's used less often", that's not a good reason.

ChubbyMooshroom9Oct 10, 20182 votes

Thought's on kai'sa current state in game, I feel like she's so absurdly strong and outclasses Vayne and Kog in their respective jobs. The only reason Varus is still around IMO because he can lanebully. IN general how do you feel about these group of 4, and any balance/kit changes coming their way?

Daddy AntsOct 10, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Thought's on kai'sa current state in game, I feel like she's so absurdly strong and outclasses Vayne and Kog in their respective jobs. The only reason Varus is still around IMO because he can lanebully. IN general how do you feel about these group of 4, and any balance/kit changes coming their way?

Vayne is fine.

Varus needs a slight buff.

Kai'Sa needs a hard nerf.

Kog'Maw is fine.

Kai'Sa getting nerfed will benefit the rest naturally.