Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 12

RiotMeddler·Oct 12, 2018·1 votes·140,200 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

MF VO

Back when we were recording the VO for Gun Goddess MF we also looked at a VO update for MF's base VO, given we had voice actresses for all the required languages in the studio already. As you'll have noticed we didn't end up going through with that though. Wanted to share some details as to what happened there.

We recorded a lot of lines for a new MF VO set and put them into internal testing. Reaction was unexpectedly poor to it. To get a wider read we then reached out to Rioters who've played a lot of MF (mains or former mains generally) to get their thoughts. Feedback was really split, with different people having different takes on who MF is. We then put that new VO into research labs with a number of regular players who came in to visit our campus, some of whom were MF mains, some of whom weren't. Once again we saw some really contrasting feedback, in particular the distinction between "spunky, playful" versus "bad ass, bounty hunter". We believe that reflects in significant part that our portrayal of MF has changed over the years. Her presentation in some of the newer stories for example is more the bad ass version. Her current VO, given its age however is more the flirty, fun earlier take on the character.

Between that disconnect over who MF is, and some sadness at moving to a new voice actress from some play testers we concluded it didn't make sense to use the new VO. That was a disappointment, given it felt like a great opportunity to update a well loved champ with a very limited set of lines. It was a case where the downside felt larger than the upside though. We'll hopefully take another swing at updating MF's voice at some point, starting with a better definition for MF's identity to base a script and performance off.

Couple of notable bug fixes in 8.21

I normally avoid talking about specific bug fixes given there are a lot in any given patch. Wanted to touch on a couple today though, given they're topics I've seen a number of questions on, the Zyra one especially.

Zyra - Got a fix for an issue where plants would get stuck trying to attack untargetable non champion enemies (e.g. Azir Soldiers or Orianna ball) and therefore be unresponsive when it came to attacking actual targetable enemies nearby. Yorick - A bug fix for the Maiden to address cases where, while she's still following Yorick, she wouldn't always recall when he did. Mainly an issue in the jungle. Doesn't affect cases where the Maiden's no longer following Yorick.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

215 Comments

Soraka is SO HOTOct 12, 201816 votes

{quoted}

Zyra - Got a fix for an issue where plants would get stuck trying to attack untargetable non champion enemies (e.g. Azir Soldiers or Orianna ball) and therefore be unresponsive when it came to attacking actual targetable enemies nearby.

Doing God's work.

TheEthanolGuyOct 12, 20187 votes

Hey Meddler any plans for my wonderful friend Skarner next season?

Khajiit RengarOct 12, 20187 votes

are we gonna hav a vs event next year ? also the Vs event gonna be always with rivals or some random champs ? pray for Rengar vs Khazix

Sharpest glassesOct 12, 20185 votes

then :

MasterYi vs MonkeyKing Ornn vs Volibear

Khajiit RengarOct 12, 20184 votes

or they can make a triple vs ebent Ashe vs Sejuani vs Lissandra

UnbornHereticOct 12, 201813 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sharpest glasses,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=irL2yrul,comment-id=002b0000,timestamp=2018-10-12T17:17:34.100+0000)

then :

vs vs

Zilean vs Volibear

RiotMeddlerOct 12, 20186 votes

Not sure yet. We won't always do each event every year, want to give room to both try new types of event and let events breath a bit so they feel fresher when they come back (e.g. Pool Party skipping a year).

When we do do versus it's likely it'll always be with champs that have some reason to be rivals. That could mean in lore rivals like Yasuo/Riven or Rengar/Kha'Zix as you call out. Or it could be rivalries playing on other themes. Things like fire versus ice with Brand/Anivia, light versus darkness with Nocturne/Lux, small versus large with some Yordle and Cho'Gath etc (these are just examples, not promises).

shofazOct 12, 20185 votes

Hey meddler any plans for https://d1u5p3l4wpay3k.cloudfront.net/lolesports_gamepedia_en/a/a3/ViktorSquare.png .Even with the buffs he has been receiving they dont really fix his problems. Would you guys take a look at him after preseason? And any short term or long term plan for him?

gg git diffOct 12, 20183 votes

I would love to see some improvements to his ult, it’s not very satisfying to use and can be unweildy to control.

SKYFALL05Oct 12, 20185 votes

Hey meddler thought and ashe Ashe buffs, nurfs, vu,vgu,rw,?

RiotMeddlerOct 12, 20189 votes

Balance is reasonable, gameplay is fairly healthy (though does suppress immobile melee a bit much, resulting in a mobility versus slows arms race).

Appearance and audio are pretty middle of the pack IMO, so certainly wouldn't take time off champs showing their age a lot to work on Ashe instead.

ExpStealerOct 13, 20182 votes

Ashe is just doing her job. I dare say she's the only true Marksman in the game, one who doesn't rely on RNG and burst damage to be effective. If she can 1v1 a Darius in the mid to late game through her 60% slow I think that's OK since she lacks mobility herself and many other things. After all she is a Marksman - that class, opposed to anyone else, should be able to keep their distance from any immobile champion without the CC to keep them in place.

Tyberius11Oct 12, 20185 votes

Lissandra passive and mini rework when???

CryxeOct 12, 20184 votes

Hi,

Was wondering about how... soon we could expect the new "colorful mage"?

RiotMeddlerOct 12, 201813 votes

When they're ready.

SpideraxeOct 12, 20183 votes

Fairly soon

FlemmanOct 12, 20183 votes

it's a multiple entities champ ? :p

DeathBurstOct 12, 201810 votes

No, it's a singular they, to not reveal their gender.

Come on, we already had that discussion when Ornn was teased...

RiotMeddlerOct 12, 201812 votes

Yep. I'm generally gonna use 'they' for unreleased champs since I don't want to give away any details that haven't been already teased.

Witch of BabylonOct 12, 20181 votes

But didn't it already get confirmed on servers where there is gender specific nouns for champions? I believe that on one of the Spanish-speaking servers that the new mage was addressed as 'maga'.

TerozuOct 12, 20181 votes

Maga means magician.

DeathBurstOct 12, 20187 votes

Mago for masucline, maga for feminine.

TerozuOct 12, 20182 votes

From what I understand in modern Spanish when referencing an unknown gender you just use one at random though traditionally you would use the male form.

nosafterburnOct 12, 20185 votes

Yeah but lets be honest its not just Ornn. It's Ornn and his anvil.

DeathBurstOct 12, 20183 votes

I wasn't joking, but I still appreciate the joke. Take your +1 and now get out of this serious thread ;)

Reign of SquidOct 12, 20184 votes

I read somewhere that the new Liss passive is still problematic cause the statues are too invisible for ennemies or too useless for Lissandra. Its kinda sad cause i really like this idea of frozen dead bodies. I had a little idea, remove the explosion thing (and maybe the aoe slow), and just give Liss flat ability power or on-hit magical damages for each corpses. What do you think ?

RiotMeddlerOct 12, 20186 votes

Yeah, been working on some clarity and relevance issues this week. Been testing some changes as a result. Fairly confident they've addressed those problems while keeping the whole freeze your enemies on kill so they slow then explode thing.

Inashiya DomanOct 12, 20184 votes

I really hope that you all will be able to change MF her base VO.

Because as you said, MF changed a lot now. So her old voice lines do not really fit anymore when you know MF her current lore.

I am a MF main and will not lie that it will be VERY weird to hear a new voice actor for her, but I absolutely do not mind something new and I am clearly looking forward for it! [sg-miss-fortune]

GameWaveOct 12, 20184 votes

Any plans for hook/grab hitboxes? there really annoying because there hitboxes is way bigger than there visual :( and everytime i play blitz etc. and my hook is not hitting them but the game thinks "yes you hit" i'm pissed because thats not fair...

and what happend to the tank pyke nerf? I mean he is so tanky and can one shot everything and thats not assassin like :/

or what is with Tahm or Ornn? I mean there really strong in Worlds etc. but in SoloQ there extremly weak and thats sad :/

and can you tell me why MF got the Ultimate skin this year? I mean now the toplane is the only one without an ulitmate and thats sad :(

AHeroNamedHawkeOct 12, 20184 votes

Please don't make MF yet another super edgy character that constantly jokes about killing people. We have so many of those already (especially pirates), and her personality is iconic despite having a whole 3 lines to work with.

I understand the lore and animation teams have been going a different direction, but I'm fairly confident no one would actually want her replaced by that either.

LossondroOct 12, 20184 votes

Hey Meddler,

What happened to the adjustment to the speed of Lissandra's E? Will it be released together with the passive? Are there other things that are being looked at (I saw some talk about ability queuing during self-ultimate)?

RiotMeddlerOct 12, 20185 votes

Still planning to do the 'starts faster, slows down, ends up slower' thing. Might end up being fairly subtle though (e.g. starts 20% higher than live, ends 20% lower than live, same total travel time to end) rather than a really dramatic difference.

Sexy Jack RabbitOct 13, 20182 votes

Can you change Program lissandra's Slow particle effects to use the same one Particle Effects that Camille's W uses?

I.e When Pro. Liss slows someone with Q, it leaves Icey particle effects. But when Pro. Camille slows someone with W, it leaves Program particle effects.

Lesba Zyra MIDOct 12, 20184 votes

@medler

Greetings! Lesba Zyra here! Hopefully, you plan to give Zyra some rework, so she can be useful as a midlaner once again. I know you've stated, that she is really weak for dia elo and more as a midlaner. (I've reached with her master tier every single season. Even this one is really pain in the ... So I've dropped to Dia 3-5 elo) I've never stopped playing her as a midlaner. And I've never played her as a support (only once and found that super boring). Riot should bring her glory as an useful midlaner once again. I am tired to see Karma/Brand/Morgana as viable mids, but Zyra. She is stuck on the bottom for a few seasons already.

I am tired of her low ap ratios and basic dmg that depends on flat magic penetration builds. This build doesn't work anymore. Especially against melee champions with their passive mr increase. The old haunted mask was her core item. Now it isn't that effective. I am tired of plants dying every single time, because of dia players focusing these. I am tired to see melee champions just one-shotting a melee plant that is not even able to hit them, because of enabled auto-attack. This reworked passive is her core problem again. Good for laning. Godlike for early. Useless for TF and late game roaming/moving .etc

Thank you for your attention. (if this one has dragged it)

VekknaOct 13, 20184 votes

There is a lot of mystery surrounding Zyra mid and the series of events that transpired between her rework announcement and the present. The designer conceded to player feedback and committed to balance her for mid. It turned out that Zyra's patch changes were never actually playtested or balanced for mid. 1.5 years later we were all stoked for targeted mid buffs in 7.24, and the changes ended up being a colossal nerf to mid lane with far less impact to support.

Kaipop is down from Master 289 LP to D4 since the August bugs were introduced and seems to have all but given up on mid lane altogether. Shaian is down from Master to D3 in the same time frame. In mid lane, you're down from Master to D4 since the plant hp nerfs. I'm a scrub, but I'm down from P4 the past two seasons to G4 this season. Every other Zyra mid main I know is down nearly an entire tier since the plant hp nerfs.

The plant hp nerf was a surgical nerf to mid (particularly in already-hard melee matchups) disguised as a buff. It was too precise and too predictable to be an accident. 11 months later, there is no fix and only one comment on the issue that revealed a failed/stalled half-measure to eliminate only the most egregious melee 1-shots to vinelashers. The exceptionally narrow scope of that direction is a pretty good indicator that the balance team thinks the 7.24 changes were good overall with unintended issues at the margins.

But none of that - the intentional nerf, radio silence, etc - makes sense in the larger context of the champ. Zyra has a legacy of pro/esport play. Meddler personally plays her and described her mid weaknesses exactly. She hasn't been labeled as toxic and sent to the "waiting for update" dumpster.

It's obvious that Riot isn't doing any of this out of ignorance or apathy towards the champ, so it must be deliberate. But why in actual hell would anyone deliberately do this to any champ? Why deliberately nerf mid after announcing a mid buff and commit to it for an entire season+, yet still post comments about all the reasons mid is unviable?

I just wish someone at Riot would make sense of this because there's a lack of logical consistency when comparing comments made by Meddler, 20thCenturyFaux, and KingCobra with comments made by Repertoir, MapleNectar, and Afic. They two groups are completely at odds with one another. At this point, my best guess is that there was some kind of internal malfunction, change of direction, or larger-scale reassessment of the champ, and Meddler won't clarify wtf is going on because they don't have a plan (yet?).

charge attackOct 12, 20183 votes

Hey Meddler. Any idea when the rune stats changing are going to be going through?

RiotMeddlerOct 12, 20183 votes

Preseason, so 8.23 in November.

WindLord7070Oct 12, 20183 votes

What ever happened to the whole "role diversity" thing? There was a video that talked about it and a reddit post talking about a few champions (nidalee,graves,trist) being looked at to let them be playable in other roles.

WolfeurOct 12, 20183 votes

I prefer to think of MF as a clever captain than a flirty one.

The way I see MF, considering her portrayal since Burning Tides, is a person who is very driven, and calculated. Everything she does is meant to forward her plans. As for the flirt, my take is that she's very aware of how she's perceived and what her assets are. She uses flirting merely as a tool, and doesn't take specific joy in doing so (but doesn't dislike it either). If I were to imagine her wait of flirting, that would be a subtle kind, with body language and double entendres, with the goal of distracting, and troubling her opponent, catching them then offguard. She makes them all puzzled in their head so that they put their defenses down and she can strike when they don't expect it.

ShaianOct 12, 20183 votes

Why dont you fix her squishyness against stuff like corki/mf (2x dmg), gp ult (or generally multihit abilities, which are counted as aoe and deal 4x dmg), plants getting oneshot by melees without playerinput, just by how snares work in this game). Or just revert W/passive/plant changes of season 8 :o. Dont wait 2 years to revert it pls. You dont need 400 more days to give in it made her gameplay less skilled and worse overall.

Hexs FortuneOct 12, 20183 votes

{quoted}

MF VO

Back when we were recording the VO for Gun Goddess MF we also looked at a VO update for MF's base VO, given we had voice actresses for all the required languages in the studio already. As you'll have noticed we didn't end up going through with that though. Wanted to share some details as to what happened there.

We recorded a lot of lines for a new MF VO set and put them into internal testing. Reaction was unexpectedly poor to it. To get a wider read we then reached out to Rioters who've played a lot of MF (mains or former mains generally) to get their thoughts. Feedback was really split, with different people having different takes on who MF is. We then put that new VO into research labs with a number of regular players who came in to visit our campus, some of whom were MF mains, some of whom weren't. Once again we saw some really contrasting feedback, in particular the distinction between "spunky, playful" versus "bad ass, bounty hunter". We believe that reflects in significant part that our portrayal of MF has changed over the years. Her presentation in some of the newer stories for example is more the bad ass version. Her current VO, given its age however is more the flirty, fun earlier take on the character.

Between that disconnect over who MF is, and some sadness at moving to a new voice actress from some play testers we concluded it didn't make sense to use the new VO. That was a disappointment, given it felt like a great opportunity to update a well loved champ with a very limited set of lines. It was a case where the downside felt larger than the upside though. We'll hopefully take another swing at updating MF's voice at some point, starting with a better definition for MF's identity to base a script and performance off.

We had a really good discussion on the Boards concerning MissFortune 's Identity and what players were looking forwards to in regards to her Base VO update

Carnival Knights contributed and has a really good understanding of MF in my opinion.

Feel free to give it a read.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/OolUPfEj-what-do-you-want-to-see-in-miss-fortunes-voiceover-update

TerozuOct 12, 20184 votes

That was a great discussion I was glad to participate in. But it did highlight the main issue. Her playerbase is extremely divisive.

The only way to do her right is to find the perfect mix of Flirtatious Violence.

That is not an easy task especially when you're trying to satisfy such a huge fanbase.

RiotMeddlerOct 12, 20184 votes

Agreed on finding the right mix as really important here and also pretty challenging. I do think that's doable, but it's also at least part of why our first attempt here didn't hit the mark.

BaconorOct 12, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Agreed on finding the right mix as really important here and also pretty challenging. I do think that's doable, but it's also at least part of why our first attempt here didn't hit the mark.

I look forward to a new VO that combines both facets of her character. Are you going to use the same voice actress from Gun Goddess or bring back the old one when you eventually update her?

Solari FortuneOct 12, 20183 votes

I would like to put in my thoughts for MF's VO

I feel while most of the time Sarah Fortune is this Badass Bounty Hunter she also is capable of turning on her charm a bit at times Kinda like how in the Fortune Smiles comic she is badass but there is a scene where she is more using her feminine side to try and get something she wants.

So I feel a mix of sorts could be good for her, perhaps mainly badass bounty hunter but she does have little flirty things to say at times

Also, if you do go with any innuendos. Don't go the route that GGMF did with them where she snickers like a child at the word integrating

Daddy AntsOct 16, 20183 votes

MissFortune going to get any tuning soon? Preferably nerfs.

She is toxic with Lethality. She is toxic with Lethality and Dark Harvest.

How has she escaped nerfs all season?

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/MissFortune/

For a "low elo" champion, that's pretty alarming imo.

NitaoOct 12, 20182 votes

I am disapointed. You shouldn't listen just to you internal feedback. I am sure people who created her new voice were passionate about her, knew what they were doing and have made her new voice accurate to her story. Where she lost everything, had to take her life in her own hands and then got revenge. How can she be playful at all? You should push changes anyways and people will get used to it like they accepted new Swain personality.

So Meddler, could you at least upload somewhere her new voice and let us hear it? Pretty please.

TerozuOct 12, 20183 votes

He had way more than just internal. They had internal, they had rioters, they had many players both mains and not of the champ. Hell when the boards heard about it they split in half way more passionately than most subjects would make them.

The VO was controversial and should not go through until they get it right.

DevelynOct 12, 20182 votes

I, like many people on this forum, express the same disappointment about the MF MissFortune VO.

As an MF main, I can't believe her current quotes. They are so flat and repetitive. It's hard to imagine that some combination of her two identities (fun, suggestive vs. aggressive, strong) couldn't be reached.

While I own it (I like to support MF content no matter what), I personally only play GGMF when I feel like hearing some funner quotes. I think that skin is a waste, you removed her long hair and her sex appeal is lost in all that mech (her trademarks). At least she has some enjoyable dialogue (even if half of it is Exo...).

I can only imagine how much time and energy that was required to do all that VO work. Can't you just add some of the best stuff? Even if you only choose non polarizing, generic quotes it would mean some new, funner dialogue for MF. Otherwise it's gonna be at >years before you guys consider reinvesting in her VO. No one is gonna miss "bang" or "think you can handle me, summoner?"

Please reconsider! Also, Shout out to Zeronis! Star guardian MF is a present for all.

RiotMeddlerOct 12, 20185 votes

Adding just some of the lines isn't feasible here unfortunately because they were using a different voice actress. Mixing them in with the existing ones is going to feel pretty jarring.