Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 12

RiotMeddler·Sep 12, 2018·1 votes·148,989 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Worlds on 8.19

We've got our second and final round of balance changes with more focus than usual on pro play in 8.19. It'll be the Worlds patch, so we're also leaning towards conservative changes generally. As a recap the principles we're approaching Worlds balance with are:

An interesting and fun to watch experience is most important from a viewer perspective.
A diverse meta's good, but not as important as interesting matches (better low diversity and exciting games than high diversity and slow, uneventful play repeatedly)
No champions should be 100% pick/ban, or very close to it
No major disruption (minimal systemic changes especially, changes to individual champs especially are more appropriate)
While we're putting more attention into pro balance for the next couple of patches, ideally any changes made should be positive for regular play as well. If not they should at at minimum not be highly harmful to regular balance. That's the case in particular when it comes to buffing champs, with a fair number we believe could buff into pro play relevance but only by making them inappropriately strong for regular players.

Based off those principles context on changes we're currently looking at:

Champions

Ornn, Cho, Sion - Are very high presence in pro play in the play offs. Teams do need tanks though, so our inclination is adjust a couple of items (see below) rather than hitting this champs specifically.
Janna - Is currently weak in regular play (especially versus historic expectations). Pro play's also light on enchanters. We're testing a light buff to her passive conversion. Don't want to over buff, but interested in seeing if we can get a bit more niche variety at least in the support position. Buffing the amount of damage her AAs and W get from movement speed's what we're looking at because those are aspects of her kit that tend to have more impact at higher skill levels and Janna's historically overperformed at low/average MMR versus high.
Elise and Kha'Zix - Will potentially receive small buffs each. They've both got a bit of room to be stronger in regular games and we think are probably on the cusp of getting occasional pro play. Jungle variety's been fairly good during playoffs, so don't want to swing hard here, would be nice to get a couple more non tanks in play though.
Urgot - We're looking at him, but trending towards not making any changes. Some risk he ends up pick/ban and/or that mid ends up dominated by tanky picks. At the same time he's an interesting emerging pick and one that we believe has some not yet demonstrated counters.
Olaf - Also on watch, but likely not get changed. He's getting a lot of play, but provides something pretty different in the jungle.
Gnar - This is technically a really late 8.18 change, mentioning for those who missed it earlier this week though. Gnar's priority in pro has dropped a lot, so we've pulled the Armor nerf we previously had in, doesn't look necessary.
Kai'Sa - Is getting a lot of play. We haven't yet seen the 8.18 nerfs in action though and believe they'll have some effect. No further changes planned as a result.

Items:

Liandry’s - We're looking at a buff to Liandry’s, both due to its general weakness and so it does a better job as a HP stacking counter. Current direction we're testing is making it also do 2% damage, so that it can function a bit better as a HP counter without also requiring the correct kit and/or Rylai's as much.
Warmogs - Is arguably invalidating damage put onto some champs too much, letting teams recover from punishment in team fights/poke a bit too well. We'll probably chip some power off it, though won't be going for any really major changes here.

Rek'Sai

A while back I mentioned we were looking at Rek'Sai buffs which never ended up happening. Wanted to share a bit of context as to why since I see them getting asked about a fair bit still. At time of mention our assessment was Rek'Sai was underperforming across the board, so we had room to add some straight power to her. Looking into things a bit deeper though we realized she was performing quite well at higher MMR already and that straight buffs would be inappropriate. She does have a fairly steep learning curve, and underperforms at low/average MMR though, so will feel weak to quite a lot of players. Would like to do some work to smooth out her early accessibility a bit as a result, that's a much larger task though than just adding power so it didn't fit within the time we had allocated. Expect we'll come back to her at some point, not sure on when though.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

244 Comments

ShaianSep 12, 201815 votes

I guess your second point just means Alistar wont get nerfed after being S+ Tier since 20 patches ever since he got access to Aftershock, being the Champion with both highest tankyness and damage numbers in supportrole? Edit: and of course 2s CC lol.

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20189 votes

Lemme follow up with the team on Alistar and get back to you later today. From memory when the question of whether or not we should nerf him in 8.19 came up conclusion was that likely just concentrated picks heavier onto other tank supports. Will check on that and thoughts about his performance in regular play though.

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20185 votes

Pro: Conclusion was we'd need to nerf him, Braum and Rakan all meaningfully (otherwise just pushing play onto the other two). Don't feel he's that out of line and don't want to disrupt state of support too much either. Do like that he tends to force conflict as well.

Regular play: Haven't discussed Alistar as much in that context in the last couple of patches. Will be one of the champs talked about when we do 8.20 planning, not sure if that means changes or not yet.

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20188 votes

Oh, one addition - after talking/testing might be going back to Liandry's still rewarding the target being CC'd, just with both numbers being buffed and the difference proportionally smaller. Testing 1.5% normal/2.5% if CC'd right now, with 5 AP taken off Liandry's as well.

RoigaarSep 12, 201813 votes

If you're looking for a power increase, why decrease the AP on the item, though? It's small enough that it won't be terribly noticeable, but that exact case can be made for not changing the AP value. (If it's largely unnoticeable, then why change at all?)

I just don't get why you would identify the item as an underperformer and still fear adding power without engaging in some sort of tradeoff. If the item were to become dominant, a 5 AP drop won't prevent it from reaching that status. I feel you guys are way too tentative about some low risk stuff and go overboard with delicate balance actors.

Sharpest glassesSep 12, 20185 votes

They want this item to be good against HP stacker. They don't wanna making this the go to buy (like old morello).

LiI SoybeanSep 12, 20183 votes

You mean like current Morello? There's currently virtually no reason to ever pick Liandry's over Morello's, or Void, or even Rylai's. What Liandry's needs is to be strong enough on its own that you can viably build it second instead of Morellonomicon (if you prefer the anti-hp DoT over the Grievous Wounds + Mpen) or buy it alongside Morellonomicon as a decently strong mid-late game combo (rather than being forced to go Void/Rabadon's late every game, Morello's early. Let me fit Liandry's in there without requiring Rylai's...)

Sharpest glassesSep 12, 20182 votes

u understand better AP itemization than me... but i think Morello is situationnal. U build it when u need grievous wounds (granted in most game its great due to item 3153 item 3072 item 3812 ).

hat Liandry's needs is to be strong enough on its own that you can viably build it second instead of Morellonomicon (if you prefer the anti-hp DoT over the Grievous Wounds + Mpen) or buy it alongside Morellonomicon as a decently strong mid-late game combo (rather than being forced to go Void/Rabadon's late every game, Morello's early. Let me fit Liandry's in there without requiring Rylai's...)

i think it would be good if its strong enough to be build instead morello like item 3033 over item 3036

VekknaSep 12, 20188 votes

No, you build Morello when you need mpen, which is always. The GW is just icing on the cake.

RiotNot SurrenderingSep 12, 20184 votes

The power increase should be as targeted as possible to the item's purpose in the item system (in this case, countering HP stacking), rather than just a generic power increase. This is to avoid items just being default purchased every game. We're increasing the top end of the burn to achieve this, but this needs to come with an overall decrease to general power so as to not just make the item overpowered. 5 AP is not a trivial amount of power to be adding/removing from an item.

VekknaSep 12, 201810 votes

The power increase should be as targeted as possible to the item's purpose in the item system (in this case, countering HP stacking), rather than just a generic power increase.

And yet the best way to increase % health damage is mpen, which was removed from the item. 15 flat pen was stronger than +10% magic damage, didn't require any ramp-up time, and the % current health burn was significantly stronger for poking.

The flat pen was removed for being a burst stat that conflicted with the dps identity of the burn, right? But now the item is only as its old version after you burst through 50%+ of the enemy's health bar.

So can you explain what the item's purpose actually is? Because currently, it looks like it should be an anti-tank and dps item, but it doesn't even earn the item slot against targets over 50% health.

This is to avoid items just being default purchased every game.

Really? Look at Gunblade users, virtually all of whom barely function without the item. Look at Trinity users. Look at the majority of mages rushing Luden's. Look at the majority of APs across the board picking up Morello second.

Why is there a double standard for some items and not others?

We're increasing the top end of the burn to achieve this, but this needs to come with an overall decrease to general power so as to not just make the item overpowered.

Most hp stackers are melee and will build either SV or Mercs. Even with just Mercs, that 2.5% max hp burn is cut to 1.25% or less after MR.

So you have a Cho'gath with 6000 hp, Mercs, and SV running you down. Good thing you have Liandry's to counter all that hp, right?! Oh, wait, your empowered burn deals 65 damage per second to a 6000 hp target.

Meanwhile, if the very same Cho has 300 armor, one auto attack by a BotRK user deals an extra 160 damage on hit (480 before armor). The same attack with Bloodrazor deals 80 damage on hit (240 before armor)

Serious question here. How is a .5% max hp buff, reduced by MR, anything remotely close to "overpowered.?" Moreover, why are you terrified of 7.5% max hp over 3 seconds when the AD % health items easily deal 24% current hp or 16% max hp in the same amount of time?

Champion SkinSep 12, 20183 votes

Serious question here. How is a .5% max hp buff, reduced by MR, anything remotely close to "overpowered.?" Moreover, why are you terrified of 7.5% max hp over 3 seconds when the AD % health items easily deal 24% current hp or 16% max hp in the same amount of time?

Not to mention that item 3124 exists and can amplify on-hit % health effects by a lot and there is also attack speed (There is no such amplification for item 3151 assuming your champion/team have slows or other CC)

TormentulaSep 12, 20188 votes

why not just revert it as an alternative magic pen item to morello?

Morello should be a situational pen item depending on if the opponent has lots of healing (raka, Warwick, voli, etc) while liandry's should be an offensive pen item for champs that value more burn/DPS, i'd trade the burn or guise amp for the pen any day, unique passive or not.

Just seems bad how limited AP is.. pen requires a forced set of boots and an item that might have a completely irrelevant passive depending on the situation. Old liandry's was so much better, and if you're worried about previous seasons "every mid building it" we're seeing that desperate attempt for morello's penetration now anyway, you can at least split between the two with the same unique passive pen.

The Arctic OtterSep 12, 20187 votes

Would you ever considered bringing lane selection to blind pick? It would be nice, since the first thing everyone does in lobby is spam a lane call.

Also, could you share a graph someone that shows what percentage of games on a certain patch are played in each queue? (SoloQ vs draft vs blind vs TT vs bots etc.)

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 201810 votes

Position select in blind pick - potentially yeah. The folks who'd work on that are currently mainly focused on Clash and the Ranked improvements for next season right now. That's one of the possible projects we've talked about for sometime after that though. Can't make any promises, but is on our radar.

Games by queue type - Maybe. Let me check with our data folks, see if they've got any concerns about sharing that info. Probably fine to do, I'll put it in a future post if so. One interesting thing is how much some queues vary be region (e.g. non SR modes get much lower play rates in Korea than most other regions for example).

Sharpest glassesSep 12, 20187 votes

What's the plan for

: its not even build on anymore
: no need to developpe

SpideraxeSep 12, 20186 votes

Hey meddler any planned changes for timewarp, biscuits, dark seal and corrupting pot combo?

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20183 votes

Likely we make some changes in preseason at least, possibly sooner. Amount of regen that combo, or variants on it, offers, is stalling some lanes out. We considered an adjustment in 8.19, but concluded that potential disruption to champions using just some of those effects in healthy ways means it's probably not worth the risk for the Worlds patch at least. Still discussing, so conceivable that changes, but more likely we do something a bit later.

BlueHeartSep 12, 20181 votes

so whats the plan with item 3083 seeing as its the only answer most tanks have against the lifesteal sustain of other champions? (hopefully not, just kill it cuz proplay)

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20182 votes

Probably a lighter nerf e.g. slightly lower regen or same regen but turns off once you hit a certain health %. Those are just examples though, we don't have tactics in mind or in testing yet.

ModThe DjinnSep 12, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Probably a lighter nerf e.g. slightly lower regen or same regen but turns off once you hit a certain health %. Those are just examples though, we don't have tactics in mind or in testing yet.

I might also consider the idea of scaling regeneration -- triggering at X seconds out of combat, grop=wing over time. It might make it a bit harder to get the high level of healing if you have to abstain from combat for longer to proc it.

RankOneWakandaSep 12, 20186 votes

are we gonna see assasins not named talon or leblanc in mid lane come worlds?. are we going to see juggernauts.

if we don't see two major classes then its largely not a diverse meta. also instead of buffing janna maybe you should nerf how broken is braum and pyke and nami and soraka

haenexSep 12, 20185 votes

Hey, meddler this might sound stupid, but if you were to ever design your own champion what would he/she be like?

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 201839 votes

My first attempt would probably look a lot like this:

Ziggs

rastarogueSep 12, 20183 votes

And so very many thanks for him! While I don't play Ziggs a whole lot, he's a ton of fun.

Solidair3Sep 12, 20185 votes

Meddler was the primary designer on Ziggs and Syndra, among a couple others.

DrakzulSep 12, 201813 votes

So what your saying is Meddler really likes balls.

MasterJAAYSep 12, 20185 votes

Hi Meddler, I was wondering if there's any planned work for splash arts on champions with no upcoming VGU's or VgU's? Caitlyn and Sivir really spring to mind.

Reign of SquidSep 12, 20185 votes

Any inforfations on the Karma's update ?

HěroSep 12, 20185 votes

About RekSai ...

Yes it's kinda true that high-elo Rek'Sai players perform better on her than low/mid elo players. But they have a lot of experience with her and most of them are mains or OTPs, players who only play her from time to time still have issues with her, even pro players (because of the learning curve).

It was wise to not buff her overall power since her early dueling power is currently good enough for her. But maybe some buffs or "work" which makes her just a bit more useful in midgame could fix some problems, because she's really falling off after 20 minutes and usually comes back between minute 35 and 40.

And most importantly: Pls fix her bugs which exist since her pre-rework and rework. (Tunnel bug where your tunnel sometimes goes through the wall, but you can't go through, and the ability/AA delay after her Ult)

ChiKlerSep 14, 20182 votes

The problem is not learning curve, are bugs and other issues. For me Rek doesn't fall off late if you play properly, I think the point on Rek is finding a balance between early game and midgame jungling, so you don't really feel weak until everyone is level 16+ and have 4 items.

I've been working on this for the last 3 patches, and finally broke my record and reached P1. I was hardstuck gold V when the season started ... the learning curve on Rek is very, very steep and I like it (but I admit there's so much difference between a good and a bad Rek'Sai, depending more on your playstyle than in your overall game knowledge, but Rek'Sai actually depends a lot on game knowledge to make good picks, anticipate to someone etc. and that gives her power in high elo). They shouldn't be looking on targeting her kit directly but with small changes.

-A simple change like giving old knockup would be high determinating, but wouldn't solve the main problem. Balancing the knockup affects directly to Rek'Sai gameplay, making her more assasin or more bruiser style, so I wouldn't targe changing knockup by now, altough I would like to play a more tankier Rek.

-A lot of people on r/reksaimains are complaining about the tremor sense, but I can tell it's actually ok, it have a delay of 1.5 seconds for each footstep, and the only problem it have is that the first one takes too long to be shown, the delay between each one is actually ok as a nerf to the previous tremor sense. Something like 0.75 seconds (like the old one) for the first footstep and 1.5 seconds (like now) between each footstep wouldn't be a buff at all, but a good balance so it's less frustrating for people.

DKM BismarckSep 12, 20184 votes

Can you please, please nerf Graves already? He's been overbearing for a few months now.

Old Man RivenSep 12, 20183 votes

Any news on the fighter items - Atma's Reckoning and Spear of Shojin?

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20185 votes

Still potential candidates for preseason, we haven't made a call yet though.

TormentulaSep 12, 20183 votes

Hey meddler, any potential room to add another magic pen item or something that syngerizes with AP divers?

It kinda bothers me how many armor negation/shred sources there are in the game ( item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 item 3071 item 3033 item 3036 ) compared to AP's item 3165 item 3020 item 3135 item 3091 Feels very limiting in itemization, especially since one of them is boots, denying AP several other options because they'll be missing significant damage.

AP divers don't feel existent at all lately, and all the potential AP diver champs are just going flat AP due to not having the superior alternatives AD divers have ( item 3157 vs. item 3156 item 3053 item 3026 item 3812 ) even champs that could be balanced as AP divers like Amumu just don't have the options to pull it off.

EyesOfTheFoxSep 12, 20183 votes

The burn from item 3151 could be considered like a mini grievous wounds. That would put the item count about the same as far as pen. An AD champ isn't building both reminder and regards in the same game. You also forgot about item 3102 as a defensive item alongside hourglass. Not to mention that a lot of AP items have a ton of hp attached to them. I personally feel like AP burst dmg is way too high and all the AP items together make AP champions way too safe to play. item 3040 item 3165 item 3157 item 3151 item 3116 all give AP and some form of defensive stat (HP, Armor, MR, Etc.). There is also less magic resist in the game as of this season and even less for marksmen since their mid season trip to the garbage dump. item 3027 also exists so that just stacks HP for you not even doing anything. Then there's item 3089 , holy shit this item. If AD champs had an AD version of that the world would shit itself. Of the AD items you listed only 4 have defensive stats and that was item 3071 with it's HP and item 3814 with its shield, item 3026 which is useless once it's popped, item 3156 is basically the AD version of item 3102 so that evens out. The difference between and is takes 1.5 seconds to activate and is mindless as it works on its own without thought or input from the player. So AP items actually already highly benefit AP divers. Oh there's also the combo of item 3907 item 3285 which is pretty scary. Oh then there's this thing item 3152 so even more HP and AP and a dash....

You're basically asking for pen against champions that can't even afford to get MR unless they are a tank, and really anything over a 50% reduction is useless because dmg is so high even without a pen item.

Meanwhile marksmen get shit on with their items. We can't stack defense if we want to be effective (unlike every other class in the game), yet nearly every AP item in the game has some form of defensive stat or debuff attached to it. #feelsbadman

KazekibaSep 12, 20181 votes

item 3001 ????

EyesOfTheFoxSep 12, 20182 votes

Oh yeah, completely forgot about how that just flat out negates dmg and turns it into mana so you can spam more, on top of giving mana and health... I was mainly going for items that had AP attached to them as well. But the mask is def a strong option in any build.

KazekibaSep 13, 20181 votes

Your comment sounds really sarcastic but then also supportive, so Im not sure. But while it doesn't increase AP(so no synergy with Rabby's etc. unfortunately) it does increase Magic damage dealt ... sometimes. Situationally good for divers at least, and of course the AP tanks its intended for.

Regardless, it is an item that lowers the value of an opponent's resistances, similar to the effects of items like Cleaver and Lethality for magic damage. And honestly, there's no armor pen boots for champions who cant make use of Berserker's Greaves (the closest thing to damage multiplication for AD carries in the boots slot). Just adding it to the list.

OleandervineSep 12, 20183 votes

Meddler, why did you lock the Sona emote behind that content creator system? It's practically anonymous, since you don't release who go what content you're distributing, and given the sheer low capacity of emote codes you gave away (50 per person) there's not a way in HELL that that can satisfy your thousands of fans willing to purchase the emote. So I need to know why you thought it a good idea to lock this emote away, instead of like the 3 random classic Jinx emotes (make 2 give aways, leave one in store, no one is screwed unless you wanted that specific emotion), or just make some unique emote specific to the content creator system. Why release the entire roster as buyable emotes, EXCEPT the Sona?

iTaLenTZSep 13, 20183 votes

Can Amumu get the correct buff (more base armor and ult cd) instead of a useless passive boost on his E that happens to me a noobtrap because building him full tank is suboptimal thus lowering your chances to win the game. You could even increase his AP ratios a bit so people have more incentive to build Runic Echoes over Cinderhulk in some games or get more AP instead of the same items every game. It opens up more strategic diversity without making him OP.

TargonSep 12, 20182 votes

Hi Meddler! Last year it was announced that large class reworks wouldn't be a thing anymore, in particular, the diver class update got cancelled. The update was supposed to include changes to certain divers. Since then, we have got changes to XinZhao and RekSai , and of course reworks to Irelia and Aatrox .

There was a small change to Diana 's passive last year to tie her over until she gets a mini rework. I was wondering if Diana will receive a mini rework this year - or any small changes to her kit.

I recall that the intention was to move Diana from an assassin play style and make her more auto attack reliant. Is this still the plan for her, and what changes would be made to achieve this?

Thanks!

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 20186 votes

Very unlikely we do a mini Diana rework this year. Small changes are possible, though priority for Diana work at present will be on two bugs with her Q and E.

In terms of long term direction there have been arguments for both assassin and more AA like playstyles. We haven't made a commitment to moving her in either direction at present. That's the sort of thing that would get investigated and tested when we were working on an update, whether small or larger.

KazekibaSep 13, 20186 votes

Please stick to the Auto attack focus! Not many champions still use Nashor's as a core item and I'd love to see a version of Diana that relies on Attack speed and cooldown but doesn't get much use out of something like Rageblade to be yet ANOTHER abuser of that.

She'll still have to keep some sort of "jump into the enemy team and leave a trail of bodies in her wake" type gameplay if you want her to resemble her lore in any way (She did, after all, murder a room full of religious leaders. If they were capable of defending themselves I don't recall, though, but regardless it was implied to be a very quick affair.) but pushing her into some design space too close to Akali Ahri Evelynn Leblanc Kassadin Fizz just doesn't feel uniquely "Diana, the Scorn of the Moon". Mostly changes to her Ult and improvements to W.

If any rioters involved with the update/live balance read this, or Diana mains, thanks for reading and feel free to voice your thoughts as I'm not the most die hard main but I do very much love the champion.