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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 9

RiotMeddler·1/9/2019, 4:49:34 PM·1 votes·141,605 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Happy 2019!

Hope the year's treating you all well so far. To kick things off as these posts resume I wanted to get some feedback on the posts themselves, in particular:

  • What types of topic would you like to see more of in these posts?
  • How often do you want to see one of these posts come out? Twice a week's been the regular schedule for quite a while now, would once a week and a bit longer be more appealing for example, or is shorter but more frequent better?
  • Who else should we be learning from? Would particularly love to hear your thoughts on communication from other game developers and what approaches and techniques we should be adopting.

Changes in 9.2 and beyond

As you might have seen Maple Nectar talking about on Twitter we've just picked our likely targets for 9.2 as below. As usual not guaranteed we'll necessarily ship changes for all of these cases and we're still in the process of testing what exactly we'll do.

Buffs:

  • Sunfire Cape
  • Aurelion Sol
  • Dr Mundo
  • Jarvan
  • Neeko
  • Renekton
  • Shen
  • Shyvana
  • Volibear
  • Yorick

Nerfs:

  • Oblivion Orb
  • Relic Shield line
  • Aatrox
  • Brand
  • Camille
  • Cassiopeia
  • Galio
  • Irelia
  • Jax
  • Kassadin
  • Rakan
  • Urgot
  • Zyra

We're also looking at some more Akali work, though that's looking at counterplay, pro versus regular play power etc rather than a straight buff or nerf. Part of that includes assessing the recent shroud changes to see how much they have or haven't moved the needle and whether further shroud changes are a good tactic.

In terms of longer term work (likely changes over more than one patch, which might or might not include 9.2) we're also looking at some wider issues. The key ones there are how damage is distributed across the game (including which sources contribute how much damage), ADC itemization (crit primarily, possibly a bit that affects other build paths too) and reducing jungle influence a bit (lower camp reward scaling, less damage from the Smite upgrades).

Allowing a few champs to go beyond level 18

Wanted to get a gut check from you folks on a concept we've kicked around occasionally internally. How does the idea of allowing a few specific champions to exceed the level cap slightly (level 19, maybe 20?) sound? If for example Zilean's passive, in addition to allowing him to give XP to allies, also allowed him to break the level cap a bit just for himself is that something that feels natural? If so, is it something that would feel out of place if a few other champions could do the same? Not something we're immediately planning to do, but could be an option for champs who could do with a bit of super late game power and a bit of extra relevance to their passives. Was curious as to whether it was something that generally sounded appealing versus boring, fair versus unfair etc to you all.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

427 Comments

Shaian1/9/2019, 5:06:31 PM32 votes

What are you intending to do on Zyra? The thing that breaks her is her passive, there is the feeling that she currently has no skillexpression or any required mastery in playing her. On the other hand thats the only thing Zyra can do well, since her single spells are not strong enough to be relevant without plants or short duration plants later in the game. She must win earlygame nowadays.

Imo the correct approach would be to gut the passive early game by increasing its CD by 3 times (maybe add 0.5s reduced CD everytime you damage an enemy). Since this is an insanely big nerf it would open up room to buff her Q damage (skillexpression). You missed making Qmax a viable option last year in her „midlanebuff“ which resulted in even less players playing her successfully mid, with the changes you have done at the time. And revisit her plant HP, there are too many wrong interactions and coding since a year now, even though the concept looked good on paper. The gameplay feeling is just not doing it.

Make Zyra good on good players, not all players.

Sw4de1/9/2019, 4:59:27 PM19 votes

I just want JG to get outscaled again like they did for 8 years, logic dictates that the role that starts with the most agency/influence should scale down with game time while the roles that are restricted to an area of the map and are fighting PVP for all their resources scale up with game time

This is how its always been, why are junglers scaling with laners now, its so ridiculously oppressive that i have to be scared of fighting the JG 1v1 as a solo laner from min 1 to min 50 every game

Vekkna1/9/2019, 6:58:52 PM18 votes

What types of topic would you like to see more of in these posts?

Riot's position on macro-level design, balance, and communication disconnects between common player sentiment and the live game. Sample topics:

  • Why does damage/burst feel so high? Is it intended as part of an overall design choice, or is it a problem to be solved?

  • Why are so many recent new/updated champions so goddam frustrating to play against?! Do champ designers account for frustration in a vacuum, or are they sensitive to cumulative frustrations?

  • What is your advice for players who feel orphaned after their favorite champs (or even their entire pool of mains) are reworked into something unenjoyable or even unrecognizable? How does/should Riot show concern for these players?

Nerfs:

Oblivion Orb Zyra

Instead of double-nerfing Zyra, could you try fixing her her structural issues instead? The passive is toxic and was always destined to be a balance nightmare. Her plants are too squishy and unreliable in fights, but they're too consistent and oppressive for lane poke. Her damage scaling is completely fucked up, with multipliers that are too reliant on plants and base damage, then falling off too hard when it's time to rank W.

I just cannot for the life of me figure out why you guys won't try any of the numerous suggestions to make her more fun to play and less miserable to play against. A million mastery points into this champ, and she's just too infuriating to enjoy playing. I sincerely have more fun playing Katarina into Kassadin and Malzahar than winning a game on Zyra. It's sad.

Gank Top Instead1/9/2019, 6:01:41 PM18 votes

Being an AP Shaco main, I've felt Riot has pushed Shaco into the same path of an onhit/one shot assassin, whether he build ap or ad. This is due to the hard countering of Shaco's boxes by red trinket. Red trinket causes this playstyle to be unplayable if anyone on the enemy team has a brain to buy one vs AP Shaco. It's hard enough to have Shaco's Q revealed by red trinket, but also having boxes activated, and die after 5 seconds of life incredibly hurts such a unique playstyle without giving anything to Shaco in turn. Not to mention he has very little poke on E after all the AP/Magic damage nerfs to it. Have there been any ideas or thoughts on how you could buff boxes or nerf red trinket to help allow for the box playstyle for AP Shaco to become viable again?

Small Boobs Ahri1/9/2019, 4:54:41 PM14 votes

What do you think increased the selling price of Mejail based on the number of stacks we have?

And why not also put the Sword of the Occul back ? http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2019/02/3/1547052738-sword-of-the-occult-item.png

BlueHeart1/9/2019, 11:56:38 PM12 votes

Can Ornn get a select option for allies who have multiple items that can be upgraded? I wanted to upgrade my Morgana 's item 3157 and it instead upgraded her item 3107

giantZorg1/9/2019, 5:01:33 PM10 votes

Hi there Level 20 sounds fine, but you will need to increase game time with it otherwise it will have near to no effect at all.

Winterkill1/9/2019, 5:07:00 PM10 votes

What is going on with Karma, Meddler? The proposed rework last year was largely disapproved for the following reasons:

  1. It didn't unify the 3 gameplay styles that Developers created for Karma for the past 6 years. There was a failure to do anything meaningful on Karma for the past 6 years, which could have solved the problem of a divided fan-base. Karma has a mage, support and tank following. The proposed rework didn't solve that problem and bring Karma back as a battlemage/support but opened up the possibility of her being a jungle now. So now Karma will have 4 playstyles with no specific arrow pointing towards who she is.

  2. Karma's Mantra functionality and gameplay identity is still all over the place. This technically should fall into number 1 but having an actual gameplay identity would allow Karma's Mantra to be more successful and solve the problems. Simply buffing damage on an already annoying champion with damage was never the answer and the community didn't ask for that. The community asked for more utility (such as Mantra healing explosion) and the ability be ground targeted. Not a single person asked for a pathetic number buff (another one that will probably be nerfed) to Karma's only damage move. The Karma community wanted more damage options through-out her kit, Mantra functionality changed, and an actual gameplay identity to finally solve Karma's problems.

  3. The two biggest things players wanted back on this champion was her fans and shield bomb. Both of these things were removed and not replaced with better content. The Mantle of Decorum and Karma's new theme are alright but if something as iconic and memorable as Karma's fans is still talked about today, why has there been no attempt at bringing it back? Karma's Mantra E literally exists in the game and Developers continue to ignore the obvious problems with it. Players want shield bomb back and returned to the champion it belonged to. No one wants to grant mass AOE shields with a speed steroid when half of the champion roster and two item actives on support items can do the same thing. Bring back her fans and shield bomb.

  4. No art problems are being fixed or even looked at. The recent running animation is a pathetic attempt at best. The Mantle of Decorum and dress have major clipping issues and this is the result of a poorly conceptualized visual update. The visual update for Karma was rushed 6 years ago and it is sloppy. None of that is being addressed.

You need to explain to us what is happening with this champion Meddler, because players are now going to hold you guys accountable for more mistakes and failure to communicate. It's 2019 and all of you should be doing better than what you have been for the past couple years. There are no more excuses, diversions, or anything else. Riot Game Developers worked on this champion 6 years ago, refused to work on Karma at all for the past 6 years, and decided to finally work on Karma 6 years later but the rework is the same work ethic she always gets and reception for it is not good. Why did you guys ask for community feedback if you didn't use any of it? Why did you make players wait 6 years for another rework that is one sided and gives us nothing we asked for? Why are Riot Game Developers essentially silent about the issue and basically telling the Karma community to, "Get over it or move on?"

Rumblenii1/9/2019, 4:58:16 PM8 votes

Any plans to buff champions that are in an ok state but will be hit with the oblivion orb nerfs?

Noxian Might1/9/2019, 8:30:26 PM7 votes

What about spear of shojin?

AIQ1/9/2019, 4:53:51 PM7 votes

Hey Meddler, Whats some context on the Shyvana buffs?

Will she receive some of the QOL buff some asked for like...

Scaling with Elder Dragon? Gaining Fury while dead? Removing the decay on her W?

PS: The Aurelion Sol buffs are amazing!

Sassmast3r1/9/2019, 8:26:42 PM7 votes

Where's the Karma rework that was teased by Riot NeuroCat a few months back? She said we would see that around 9.2. Was it scrapped?

Here's the link if anyone is wondering: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/TkiBEVYV-karma-gameplay-change-preview?comment=0094

Frolo1/9/2019, 10:14:41 PM7 votes

personally i dislike the idea of breaking the level cap.

levels are one of the only things that has been consistent since the beginning of the game and therefore is one of the only systems you can currently count on not having to relearn

Lëo1/9/2019, 5:25:47 PM6 votes

Hey Meddler,

Any future plans/thoughts on Vi? Vi

DeathBurst1/9/2019, 7:25:25 PM6 votes

What types of topic would you like to see more of in these posts?

I like a lot of things, but topics that seem particularly interesting to me in that context are:

  1. The GOAL of planned/current changes. I trust y'all to do your job properly, and you have more data and more tools than us players on the outside, but I want to know WHY you're changing things and what you want to get out of it, and discuss that. (I'm convinced that new Ornn will be balanced, for instance, but I'm still not convinced he will be interesting to play.)
  2. General, theoretical stuff on game design. What are the principles behind what you do, not just the specifics of the current situation.
  3. Planned long-term evolution of the game as a whole.

How often do you want to see one of these posts come out?

More frequent is better, because it's not just about what you say in those posts, they are also the main opportunity to have discussions with you, and that's very important.

Related, I understand your time is limited, but it often feels like if we don't catch up those posts the minute they are published, it's impossible to get your attention, and this can be real frustrating. And based on that, maybe only once a week, but you spending more time in the thread chatting with us would be better?

Who else should we be learning from?

Not sure there is much to learn from it, but Mark Rosewater (from Magic) is super active in communicating with the community, and this often leads to interesting discussions on Tumblr. But Mark is a weird beast, probably not something that's easy to replicate.

My biggest complaint about Riot communication is that it's all over the place, though, and super hard to follow. You have people on the Boards, on Reddit, on Twitter, and if I have a concern, there is no easy way to know where and who I should poke with it. From experience, I know that you are active on Boards and Ed prefers Twitter, but that's not practical.

the shy top1/9/2019, 9:25:27 PM5 votes

Unfair because one team would have an inherent advantage late game. You don't always need to introduce new stuff that's going to break the game.

SUPER SARAH VRAI1/9/2019, 4:56:02 PM4 votes

Leveling in a different way than other champs seem like something unique and fun that can give older champ who don't necessarily need a large rework something to be in the big boys court Akali's obscured, Zoe steals sums, neeko transfoms, sylas steals ult. Now we can add zilean who helps his team go to lvl 19 like ornn does :D Helping some older champ stay attractive is really necessary when we all know we can't have everyone reworked lol

Rehlazor1/10/2019, 11:05:33 AM4 votes

AurelionSol This Aurelion Sol (Q) min. stun duration is a HUGE NERF, imagine stunning someone from low range, cause mostly we need that stun ASAP....and they have item 3111 MR boots, which reduces 30% stun duration. Like WTF?? We can stun enemies for 0.3 sec???? Fps drop is stronger than that...

Grizzlpaw1/10/2019, 10:53:46 PM3 votes

Voli buffs don't address any of his main issues.

  • Pigeonholed into purchasing Righteous glory first or second in order to not get countered by dashes and CC
  • Easily bursted through his passive due to a lack of innate tankiness. Issue is exacerbated with grevious wounds being so easily accessable.
  • Has very poor itemization. Needs some damage to reliably get people into execute range for his W. Needs Tankiness to survive long enough to (maybe) reach his target. Struggles at accomplishing both.
  • Scaling is all over the place. Ties into previous point. He cannot build AP to take advantage of his AP ratios, otherwise he is dead before he can reach his target. Only usable scaling is on his W. This is easily countered by heals and shields, or simply buying armor since Voli does not scale well with armor pen.
  • Base stats are below average for a juggernaut.

Voli is a champion that often struggles to reach his target. When he does reach his target, he struggles to get off more than a few autos before they dance out of his reach. When they don't dance out of his reach, he struggles to survive thoguh the plenthora of executes, ignites, and burst damage, all of which counter his only form of built-in tankiness.

Reducing the delay between ult bounces does very little when **Voli struggles to get autos off in the first place. **

Suggested Buffs

  • CC reduction built somewhere into his kit. Voli is too easy to kite. He would have to be incredibly overbearing once he actually reaches his target in order to counterbalance this. Buff his ability to reach his target, then adjust his damage against squishy targets if he is too reliable at landing the kill.

  • Buff his innate tankiness. This can be done in a number of creative ways. Ult autos grant a shield based on the number of bounces, ect. His passive is very underwhelming in its current state.

  • Fix his scaling. Voli does not have the luxury of building AP. He also does not have the luxury of building Armor pen to make his only source of scaling, his W, deal significant damage against targets who have built armor.

NaiveChocobo1/9/2019, 5:03:17 PM3 votes

Hi meddler, any updates on when the morg / kayle reworks are coming? This winter or is it looking more like spring time? Thanks

Sharpest glasses1/9/2019, 5:05:36 PM3 votes

The key ones there are how damage is distributed across the game (including which sources contribute how much damage), ADC itemization (crit primarily, possibly a bit that affects other build paths too) and reducing jungle influence a bit (lower camp reward scaling, less damage from the Smite upgrades).

Fighters still wait for their spear. Still wait for a buff for BC. BC is trash and is mainly strong on Lucian & MissFortune for God know reason (same for IBG but with Ezreal )

How does the idea of allowing a few specific champions to exceed the level cap slightly (level 19, maybe 20?) sound?

Sound, excuse my french, U-S-E-L-E-S-S. Most game are decided before this point anyway. I would prefer you spending time on relevant things.

CODENAME Shadow1/9/2019, 5:07:11 PM3 votes

[deleted]

Sharpest glasses1/9/2019, 5:16:12 PM3 votes

What types of topic would you like to see more of in these posts?

I only care about Balance and rework (kit improve...)

How often do you want to see one of these posts come out? Twice a week's been the regular schedule for quite a while now, would once a week and a bit longer be more appealing for example, or is shorter but more frequent better?

Twice is good. But what's matter is contents. Longer and relevant.

7deadLeeSlnz1/9/2019, 8:05:53 PM3 votes

Want to read more about what thoughts go in buffing, nerfing, changing aspects of the game. Which means a more detailed explanation on individual changes but also the general idea of where the game is headed (lowering dmg, make jgl less impactful, etc.).

Tormentula1/9/2019, 8:21:39 PM3 votes

Stop hitting jungle XP, you only hurt junglers that have to farm, the problem is junglers like Camille XinZhao DON'T have to farm, they can level 2 without any reprecussions and if they do lose XP/catch up XP/rubber banding, they still don't care because they can get leads rolling way too easily while other junglers who have to farm to catch up get fucked.

As for level 20, I guess it can work for certain champs, but those 2 levels don't mean a whole lot considering tiny stat scalings don't make a huge difference at that point and unless you add 2 ranks to skill level up it may feel pointless. you'd have to make reaching the level cap (getting to level 20) unlock something to their kit, to the same degree as maxing a skill on a syndra ability or kha'zix evo. Before you ask if you could break the level cap, you have to ask who could utilize a buff that like in the first place and be worth having that in their power budget resume.

Potato Jesus1/9/2019, 8:46:50 PM3 votes

Any thoughts on skarner? Meta doesn't favor him which is expected, but losing the ad from celerity really kicked him while he was down hurting his clearing and dueling on spires by 4/5 ad

Develyn1/9/2019, 10:11:34 PM3 votes

Meddler, this orb of oblivion nerfs is very concerning.

Right now orb of oblivion is a necessary and early buy for AP jungles (Elise Evelynn . Since this item is being nerfed and they are nerfing jungle influence, this group of junglers will be greatly weakened when they are already performing poorly. How are you going to protect these champs from these changing and from becoming obsolete?

The Anivia OTP1/10/2019, 7:35:10 PM3 votes

if we could at least end a game as level 18 then we could think about having more levels.

anyway,

Level 18+ can be a good idea however there has to be one drawback,

i mean Udyr would simply be able to get all his spells maxed out. but Kayn would make him a very late game monster

in majority, the spell buff cap has made it harder to balance since you often wants to add point in a spell because you use it a lot. or it's more "worth it" when playing jayce or ryze i'm not disturbed by the subsequent point i can put after 5 upgrades. and often you happen to nerf that particular ability that seems broken , and the build changes (Mordekaiser swapped from max Q to max W) and are'nt less viable. On some champion , getting another point is almost completely meaningless (AurelionSol) whereas on other (Renekton ) they completely defines the powerspikes.

adding level simply for stats is okay , but be wary, having more point in the game would make it disturbing if available to all champ.

ALSO

just like in pokemon , you could have balanced exp gain by changing the needed exp for a champion to reach another level. that could help a LOT for balancing champion you don't want to reach lategame as soon as others. but i guess that's just my pokefan opinion.

Jar Jar binks l1/9/2019, 4:51:01 PM3 votes

Meddler Im testing the Yorick buffs and they seem great. Weak early but he scales better and can duel other champions now.

Can u preview us the Volibear buffs

Draganel1/9/2019, 5:09:59 PM2 votes

Any plans for Bard Bard , balance wise? thank you in advance

Daddy Ants1/9/2019, 5:03:27 PM2 votes

How well have the Vayne buffs landed?

How is she looking so far with regards to internal data?

I'm curious as to how impactful the change has been so far. I know it's Patch day but I'm still curious XD