Patch Chat 6.12 - Keystones and Catalyst and Marksman Items, Oh My!

RiotSkarnye West·Jun 14, 2016·1 votes·96,098 views

Hey all,

Welcome back to Patch Chat! We’re Riot’s Playtest Team, a group of high ranking League players whose job it is to play the hell out of things (lane tests, competitive testing, etc) and give actionable objective feedback to designers.

Every two weeks (concurrent with the release of patch notes), we’re going to be hosting a discussion here on the state of balance on the current patch. Take this opportunity to ask us any questions about the state of the game.

It’s been a few weeks of Patch Chat, and we’re still iterating on the format. With three new members starting in the last few weeks, we welcome any feedback about the format of Patch Chat. What do you like about Patch Chat or want to see in the future? What do you hate?

Patch 6.12 is being called the ARAM Patch, but it also sees changes to ADC itemization, Youmuu’s Ghostblade, Catalyst items, and Grasp of the Undying.

With sustain for tanks (as well as Catalyst mages like Swain) lower on this patch, and marksman damage upped somewhat, tell us how see the meta shifting!

Curious what it’s like to work as a Riot playtester? Have any questions about the patch as a whole? As usual, feel free to ask any questions about balance or what exactly our job is. We will be around for the next few hours and will try to answer as many questions as possible.

Playtest Team

Adam "Afic" Cohen
Preston “Hinder” Bunker
Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt
Shawn “I Am The IRS” Currie
Nicolas “Gleeb” Haddad
Miles “Daydreamin” Hoard
Bao “Bao” Lam
Mattias “Gentleman Gustaf” Lehman
Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith
Blake “S0be” Soberanis
Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes

541 Comments

Nameless VoiceJun 14, 201635 votes

So, Zed has over an 85% ban rate in Plat+, and least over 60+% at all other levels.

That should make it really obvious that people really do not like playing against him.

When is he going to get some actual proper changes to bring him to a state where people can actually bear to play against him? Adding an indicator around his shadows does nothing to make him less oppressive.

The patch notes say that "Zed's inherent frustration is intended". How can a champion that is intentionally frustrating to play against be justified as anything but bad game design?

Sure, dying can feel frustrating, but it should always feel fair - like you died because you made a mistake or the other player played better than you. No one feels outplayed by Zed. He does not feel fair to play against. (There are a few other champions with the same problem.)

His laning phase is completely oppressive. He can easily push most mana users out of lane. He has strong waveclear and incredibly tower-killing ability - on a champion who is supposed to be designed to kill enemy squishies. He has practically no costs - meaning he can stay in lane forever. He is AD, making him much freer to take defensive runes, since AD does not conflict with MR, unlike AP. He can rush Hexdrinker which makes him almost impossible to kill (while mages have no equivalently strong item to build against him.)

His assassination is top-notch and has very little counterplay. He gets in range, and then either the Zed player hits all his skills, or he doesn't. There's little space for his opponent to make skillful plays to avoid or reduce his damage, except if they have instant/skillshot hard CC or a shield.

He is relatively safe, both in lane (shadow escape) and even more so in all-ins. His tiny 1-second window does almost nothing to make him vulnerable for someone with an untargetability-gapcloser and near-instant escape. He can apply all of his damage in 1 second and then run away with almost no opportunity of counterattack.

In short: he is really strong at laning. He is really strong at taking towers. He is decent at roaming. He is very good at assassination. He can escape easily. The item system also favours him heavily, especially against mana users.

People hate having to deal with that. Even in games where you win, you have to suffer being miserable for the entire laning phase until he finally starts to fall off a bit in teamfights (if he hasn't managed to get fed too much by then, and your team brought enough tanks.)

Explain to me why a champion like this is considered to be a healthy addition to the game?

Lotus BladeJun 14, 20169 votes

His laning phase is completely oppressive. He can easily push most mana users out of lane.He has practically no costs - meaning he can stay in lane forever. i think your lagging and still stuck in the patch before his q nerf

Nameless VoiceJun 14, 20166 votes

I only saw him played two or three times since the last nerf (he was banned the rest of the time), but he still seemed to have these strengths as far as I could tell.

I didn't notice much difference from before the nerf.

Black JesusVJun 14, 20167 votes

As a platinum to another platinum - -Zed is an assassin it is his Job to have the amounts to kill/slay one person fast, Much like talon and Leblanc AND FIZZ? REALLY KID. -Zed punishes champions that can't keep a range from him or non-mobility champions BECAUSE: he's an assassin he's fast and deals DMG -Zed's waveclear is mediocre compared to meta mid laners right now, how dare you say something as stupid as that. He's rated as a low wave clear champion that has to expend a 18 second cooldown on his W to clear 1 wave as efficient as a syndra, azir, talon, zilean would do, your statementwas just stupid and un-true -Zed doesn't have cost, but he doesn't have waveclear without putting himself in harms way just like stated above ^ control mages easily out-push and can SUSTAIN so much easier than he can without Hexdrinker/3 pot start -WHAT AD CHAMPION DOESNT TAKE TOWERS DOWN FAST? LOL, #RetardNation -MAGES RUSH Seekers ARMGUARD for +45 ARMOR AND AP'ISH, LOL ARE YOU HIGH? AND IT BUILDS INTO ZHONYAS, an item that literally shuts him down 100-0 for 3 seconds.

Assassination - Assassins are built around taking 1 opponent out at a time am i right? just like in the movies. SO WHY NOT ZED? HES AN ASSASSIN RIGHT PEOPLE? So here you have a champion built to 1v1 all the time RIGHT HERE, much like Leblanc. SO WHY BE ALONE? Zeds don't Ult dive into a team of 5v5 and come out clean unless you're in an elo below low gold. SO, WHY BE ALONE? HE WAS DESIGNED FOR THAT, NOT TEAMFIGHTS.
He's safe with his shadow escape that is an 18 second CD AT MAX RANK compared to leblancs 12 Second CD WITH her R to mimick the ability for 0 Mana cost and you say he's safe? He expends the ability and is useless, all good junglers know to gank zed when he doesn't have W or to all in when HE doesn't HAVE W. 18 second window... UHM HELLO? S2 called they want their excuses back.
in-short OR Summary - Zed falls off hard at the 30 minute mark unless your team is extremely behind against him because of how itemization works as well as a simple exhaust or staying with your team, counterpicking against him etc. Zed is a very balanced champion and they keep spoon feeding idiots like you an excuse to say you lost cause "They had zed ermahgerd GG" There's so many flaws, It's really upsetting. I'm not a Zed fanboy either, just more champions need looking at than the champ that's been nerfed to the dirt BECAUSE THAT'S HIS PLAY-STYLE AND PEOPLE LIKE HIM.
Health - The game meta shifts every 1.0 or .5 patches, it will pass, remember when Tanks were OP? Now they're not that OP right? There's always going to be scenes where there's the KING of the meta, but it will TOO pass. Zed is healthy because he's one of leagues stamps/children/iconic figure. He is more healthy than most mid laners. You're just upset because he excels and does his job and what he's supposed to do. Don't be upset kiddo.

If you're really this upset about Zed in general you don't belong in the elo that i'm in because you can't comprehensively figure out how to beat 1 champion like the rest of the Gold kids and below, MAN UP. Complaining doesn't get you anywhere, so is being irrational and posting something like this without giving it an ounce of thought. Zed JUST ANOTHER CHAMPION, Why don't you be irrational about something like this? Leblanc Azir Fizz LeeSin Kindred Maokai Swain Yasuo thought so, all busted champions that are harder to kill/annoying/snowball/DO THEIR JOBS. Don't QQ because you can't play your fave champion everygame, you're probably just another 1 trick pony that can't play your champion VS zed. I can literally find a counter champion in EVERY ROLE even support that would render zed crap in a teamfight or when they're doing their jobs. TOP: Irelia Maokai, any tank/bruiser that negates damage or has CC. JGLE: Kindred, Udyr, Lee, Vi again CC junglers or champs that negate damage etc. MID: ALL caster mages if played correctly on top of Fizz/Assassins like LB. ADC: Vayne, She has stealth. Cait, she can see him from a distance and deal damage from a distance as well as a net/50.Cal to dmg him BEFORE he decides to even go in. Support: Any supp with CC, mainly Alistar, Leo, Karma, AND THERES TRULY a Zilean more.

PLS USE YOUR HEAD BEFORE YOU TRIGGER MANY MORE PEOPLE. Or at least BACKUP your false statements. This retort is just logic, and if you don't see it, you probably shouldn't have bought your account.

Nameless VoiceJun 14, 201621 votes

I don't see a retort built up out of logic.

I see one mostly built up out of shouting and ad-hominem attacks. Telling me I don't deserve to be platinum and must have bought my account? Good argument. What about the ~85% of players in Platinum and higher who ban Zed? Do they all not deserve their accounts too?

You talk about how he's no less healthy than other badly-designed champions - as if the existence of one badly-designed champion justifies the existence of more - it doesn't. They should all be reworked to fix their health issues.

You say people should "man up" instead of complaining - in other words, be happy with whatever you're given, and don't try to help Riot improve their game by offering feedback.

JOOOHNCEENAJun 14, 20162 votes

Dude everyone has a higher base armor stat than they have MR. I think you are over reacting to zed. Anyways he falls off late game because everyone just CC's the shit out of him. He is completely fair to play against currently. Plus if u are facing Zed in ranked just play Kayle, she counters him hard

Nameless VoiceJun 15, 20168 votes

Uh, no. Armour is near-universally lower than Magic Resist at level 1. All champions have at least 30 MR at level 1, some (melee champions with scaling MR) hae slightly more. Only Rammus alone has more than 30 armour at level 1. Most champions have below 20.

However, armour scales on all champions, and MR only scales on some (again, melee champions.) Most ranged champions don't break 30 armour until they are roughly level 5, or higher (melees tend to gain it faster.)

Now, runes. A full page of armour runes yields 9.0 armour. A full set of flat MR runes yields 12 armour. That means that MR runes are 33% more effective than armour runes.

Let's pick some random examples: Taliyah, Ziggs, and Zed. At level 6, Taliyah with armour runes has 40.9 armour. Zed with MR runes has 49 MR Ziggs with armour runes has 43.6 armour.

There's also some argument to be made that MR is more effective than armour, because mages have a burst damage pattern, meaning that MR is an exact reduction to their damage output until their next rotation, while champions with sustained damage can continue dealing damage for longer. Zed falls somewhere between the two, but can certainly use his powerful autoattacks to supplement his damage.

WhiteFlame44Jun 15, 20164 votes

So sad you wrote so much and yet riot doesn't respond. item 3073 . I guess they feel like they answered your questions about Zed earlier in the Q&A.

Nameless VoiceJun 15, 20165 votes

I'm used to it. I tend to write too-long posts and threads, and no one wants to read those.

SnugglePuggle94Jun 14, 201617 votes

How has Nidalee been fairing with her recent, awful, nerfs?
Can you guys actually hit Zed with the nerf bat instead of giving him love taps? It's not cool he gets Riot's favor while other champs are being ignored or nerfed to the ground for no reason.
AP items- the past 2 updates (immobile mage and marksmen) completely destroyed our itemization. Can some AP be put back? We barely have any damage.

RiotRiot ThEntropistJun 14, 201640 votes

She seems to be doing okay actually. People have been adapting well and seem to still be finding success with her.
Zed has the 7th lowest winrates for any midlane champion(Champion.gg) ) and also had one of his core items hit this patch. The whole favoritism argument is just untrue.
So I'd be curious what your actual reasoning is here other than feeling. AP itemization has felt pretty decent in my experience. Also with blue buff and infernal dragon giving large +% AP, I've been reaching very high amounts of AP. So if you have anything in particular that you wanted to chat about, I'd be happy to discuss in greater detail.

L0ve Is BlueJun 14, 201620 votes

Zed also has the highest ban rate. It's not all about being op its about being fun to play against too, and he so isn't. He just ults you and there is nothing you can do. You either die or he blinks back and he is safe.

Plus his nerf was actualy a buff. 25% more damage makes up for the 25 base damage lost.

RiotRiot ThEntropistJun 14, 201651 votes

His nerf was not a buff. His winrate went down.

Personally I think the Zed thing comes from being strong for a while and people being overall slow to adapt. If I had to guess I would expect his ~~winrate ~~ banrate to drop gradually over the next few patches as people figure out that he is no longer ban worthy. Although that is just my opinion and we will see what happens.

He just ults you and there is nothing you can do. You either die or he blinks back and he is safe.

This statement really bothers me because it is very hyperbolic and just untrue. It distorts the argument in a way that doesn't fuel good discussion but shows a hatred for a single champion.

BADxW0LFJun 14, 201621 votes

Well, to a lot of people he is the most toxic champion in the game so, yeah, a lot have people show hatred for this single champion. While he does take a lot of skill to play, those who know how to play him really well just dominate. The only thing that can really counter him is a zhonya's, that I am aware of, but I'm low elo so what do I know? I think it would be beneficial of Riot to include better counterplay tips for him in the death recap screen (which Riot still has yet to do anything about) or maybe include counterplay tips in the champion page (for all champions) on the LOL website.

QuephaJun 14, 201612 votes

{quoted}

Well, to a lot of people he is the most toxic champion in the game so, yeah, a lot have people show hatred for this single champion. While he does take a lot of skill to play, those who know how to play him really well just dominate. The only thing that can really counter him is a zhonya's, that I am aware of, but I'm low elo so what do I know? I think it would be beneficial of Riot to include better counterplay tips for him in the death recap screen (which Riot still has yet to do anything about) or maybe include counterplay tips in the champion page (for all champions) on the LOL website.

That doesn't make it useful to pretend that Zed automatically wins the game or that clear nerfs that hit his winrate at all levels of play did not make him weaker.

If you want Riot to make Zed not suck to play against, you have to figure out what sucks instead of just saying he's super strong and wins all the time because that is factually not what is happening.

Bearded WarlockJun 14, 201611 votes

Alright so I'm an ADC main, that being said I do ban zed every game. I ban him for the simple fact that I have no sort of way to even attempt counterplay. If I just continue to build damage, I'm in the same position. If I take the defensive route i still get one shot, if not close, can't do any damage to the tanks that are killing me as well, and in the long run just pretty much rendered useless unless I sit far back out of the fight waiting for him to use his ult on someone else which by then my team is halfway dead, I am soon to be because I'm the only one alive after the fight. I just feel like the changes that they made to qss and merc scimitar it has left people that play this role no type of counter play. And it isn't even really with just zed, the same problem exists with vlad ult. I just feel like that isn't talked about as much because he doesnt have the gap closers that zed does.

Sightless66Jun 14, 20169 votes

I ban him for the simple fact that I have no sort of way to even attempt counterplay.

It's not like Zed is alone in this. If I'm playing against Talon, then the whole "no counterplay" thing is even more true than it is for Zed. The only thing special about Zed is that he's been the strongest for a long time, but I'm not convinced that is true anymore.

Black JesusVJun 14, 20163 votes

you're also Silver and you don't understand the champions. Pls learn them. their roles will literally dictate how the champions are played. Zeds an assassin it's his job to blow 1 person up and be done with quick fast succession just like a movie. LOGIC. Kinda like shen, who's thought was it to make an assassin a tank? pretty stupid right?

Bearded WarlockJun 14, 201628 votes

So you think because I am silver I don't know anything about the game or how any of the champs work? What are you? Gold V? So much better.... right. First off, I have played since preseason 3. I think through all the years I have played this game, some of which I played zed quite often. Don't sit there like you know so much more just because of one division difference. Back when you could actually Qss zed ult I didn't have a problem with zed. I prioritzed other bans. As soon as they made it so you couldn't stand a chance even if you flashed at times, he was still coming back a minute later hopping on you and with no escape this time. Don't use rank as your arguement, especially when you are only gold V.

realhotgirlshltJun 15, 20167 votes

I main mid lane and I almost ALWAYS ban Zed. I get that he's a champion that requires skill, but with mages being squishy and the countless changes to mage items, it's quite hard to go against him. Before 6.9, I wouldn't mind going against a Zed because my go-to item was ALWAYS Zhonya, but now that the damage has been lowered yet again (70 AP now) and the CD on its active has increased to 120 seconds, it makes it harder for other mages to actually kill after level six or do anything else for that matter. Lately, I always find myself playing Diana to counter him and it's actually a pretty good laning phase against him with her. With starting off her shield at level 1 and maxing that out first early game, I make the fucker play really passive and having to w his ass away from me when he has the balls to fight me; when he gets desperate, he roams bot, but no luck with a follow up. Jokes aside, it's harder to lane against him ever since 6.9. He was already hard as it is to lane against before, but now it's almost impossible to do so.

StarlighteJun 14, 201676 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ThEntropist,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=eEMPw1MZ,comment-id=0005000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-14T20:00:52.656+0000)

His nerf was not a buff. His winrate went down.

Personally I think the Zed thing comes from being strong for a while and people being overall slow to adapt. If I had to guess I would expect his winrate to drop gradually over the next few patches as people figure out that he is no longer ban worthy. Although that is just my opinion and we will see what happens.

This statement really bothers me because it is very hyperbolic and just untrue. It distorts the argument in a way that doesn't fuel good discussion but shows a hatred for a single champion.

All feedback is good feedback. And emotional feedback is very good at helping to flag what champions need reworks. If a champion (such as Zed) on paper and in testing labs sucks: his winrate is garbage and is borderline Urgot tier, then what you've discovered is that it is the kit that is the balancing problem.

Look, arguing with people saying "your feelings on this champion are wrong, he is actually bad" is never going to work, and you just paint yourself as somebody in the realm of "I am a game designer, and thus I know better than you." And nobody wants you to do that. Firstly, we know that's not what you mean. But secondly and mainly, it is just as non-helpful to the conversation as the people you're arguing with. Just because you say Zed is weak and people are wrong to think he is banworthy, does not contribute to solving the problem of the differential between perceived strength and actual strength. All you're doing with those statements is fanning an anti-riot sentiment where people believe there to be some "We know better than the players" mindset.

It doesn't help the conversation and I think you can do better.

Krys StarJun 14, 201626 votes

It's not "hyperbolic" or untrue. It's completely true. Mages have a 120 whopping second cooldown to Zhonyas, whereas every other class just has to bend over and take it whenever Zed ults. You can't do anything about it. You have a very small window of reacting to him when he gets a free positioning on top of you to drop everything on you.

You'll never admit it, and that's fine if you want to be stubborn about it, but the evidence is there that you guys clearly favor and love Zed. Many champions are addressed quickly when they are out of line (Soraka, Miss Fortune, Ashe, etc.) but Lucian, Zed, Ekko and others take much longer to address. Every nerf Zed has received was -5% to his ult's damage per rank, -15 damage to his shurikens but +25% increased damage per shuriken hit, so on and so forth. He receives taps a patch at a time, and you guys said you would look into making Zed less frustrating to play against, but you instead made him more frustrating to play against should an experienced player get their hands on him.

You guys used to be so passionate about this game's well being and state of balance, but this season, you guys just seem to stop caring. So many champions are left rampant for so long, while others get addressed quickly. You guys clearly cater to certain champions, while uncaring for others. Are you aware only 44 out of the 134 pool have been picked in tournaments, whereas Dota 2 had a WHOPPING 92 out of 110 picked? You guys had the ball during season 5, but halfway through, lost it, and just left the ball rolling away.

L0ve Is BlueJun 14, 20167 votes

This statement really bothers me because it is very hyperbolic and just untrue. It distorts the argument in a way that doesn't fuel good discussion but shows a hatred for a single champion.

Than tell me how it is not a Toxic ability? The only way to counter this ability is if Zed does a mistake and goes in when he is low or if you use Zhonya. Otherwise he has a whole 6 second to blink back even if you manage to CC him through his mobility (for all I know no champion can lock down a single target for 6 whole seconds on his own).

Having to wait for someone to make a mistake to counter him is NOT healthy gameplay. The only weakness Zed would have is that he is squishy, otherwise he has all the range, safety, damage and mobility he could wish for. No, his winrate isn't that good but it still feels horrible to lane against a Zed. His banrate won't go down unless another champion become as annoying as him in lane (or more).

VoraciousXJun 15, 20164 votes

Tell me something. if this is the sole REASON why he's banned so often, why wasn't he banned this much before? Also he doesn't have a whole 6 seconds to lock down a champion. Zed can't LOCK DOWN anyone, they can move, they can dodge, they can use CC. Staying past one or two seconds actually makes Zed more likely to die trying to pick up a kill. Zed's ult takes like a second or two before it even activates, giving you plenty of time if your team is around to get right beside him so that you can destroy him the moment he appears. If it's a 1v1, you're dead, because you're supposed to be dead. You don't just walk around all solo with a Zed out there. He's an assassin and his job is to kill priority targets. If you're an ADC and you're alone farming a big wave it's your own fault you died, not Zed's.

L0ve Is BlueJun 15, 20167 votes

He is banned because of his kit as a whole being unfun to play against, but to me it will always be one buff that was that made the shit storm rise:

Living Shadow Range increased to 700 from 600. Missile speed increased to 1750 from 1500. Minimum range lowered to 350 from 400.

ExplodinIndianJun 14, 201619 votes

[deleted]

NewGuy101Jun 14, 201629 votes

If win rate determined who was good or bad, then we would see Amumu at LCS and not Poppy

kyll yoJun 15, 20164 votes

this comment is just wrong, lcs is a lot more organized and differant champs can be played because they are way better then almost all players, and are always communicating so they can use their abilities to synergize and other stuff like that.

NewGuy101Jun 15, 20166 votes

that's what I said. I'm mocking people who think champs with low win rates are "bad" champs. Poppy has a win rate of 45.4% because 1) all the new players want to play her because it's what the pros play, 2) without a coordinated team, Poppy can make a ton of mistakes, like ulting the wrong champ or body slamming the support, and 3) your teammates might not realize your good plays quickly enough to capitalize. Meanwhile Amumu is an easy to pick-up champ with the 2nd highest win rate of 54.4%, but you'll never see him in the pros.

lebnaJun 15, 20163 votes

Amen!

Second IntervalJun 15, 201615 votes

I think quite a few of us are blowing certain topics out of proportion as well as letting emotions hinder progress, and this isn't doing anything for the community. You've been given a great opportunity to collaborate/discuss with respected employees from Riot. So, I think it would be wise to take a second and ask yourself if what you're posting is going to fuel a positive discussion... and will it affect the appropriate changes positively that you want to see in League of Legends. Before you ask a question, contemplate each question in relation to every other champion existing now and every match possible from start to finish. I think that is what Riot THENTROPIST is referring to with Zed. His win rate is lower for many reasons, some of which are from his nerf, translating into diminished game tactics involving him (roaming, itemization in terms of gold efficiency, etc...). So, statistically speaking, it is much more difficult to win with zed due to community feedback... good or otherwise. Mechanically speaking, Zed's abilities allow him to be almost unrivaled to average players much like the damage in Katarina's burst if she manages to catch you. This game highly considers reaction time, but it should consider reaction time and tactics for the average community/player. Zed is a champion the average community has trouble tactically beating due to the average player's reaction time and potential with tactics. In my opinion, the problem is not the champs. The problem is traced back to when you first play this game... the tutorials. I believe if there were a much more detailed tutorial that could teach players game mechanics and punishing an opponent for grabbing cs, laning phase, structure of kiting, and we had open access to this material on a hosted Riot website... knowledge on how to play against a pk/roaming champion like Zed would allow us to shift our focus on more pressing issues like where does Riot intend on shifting the meta, why, and what do we have to look forward to seeing in the near future? Remember, Riot employees should be respected even when you are so frustrated you could just slam your computer on the ground... Civility, eloquence, and structure will make Riot create changes more quickly and favorably for players like us. Thank you, Riot, for your efforts.

EasierZedThnDoneJun 15, 20163 votes

Very well said Sir!!!!

Sir McBallerJun 14, 201610 votes

As a human being, I'm so sorry you have to put up with all of this rage and negative response from the community. I'm glad you're trying to respond, though.

I don't think you were wrong here for calling out incorrect statements or fallacies (we need that in real discussion, and you were right) but it looks like it may have been too abrupt and dismissive for an audience that clearly came to the forum upset already. Keep it up! I can only imagine how frustrating it is to have to actually address the claims on the internet. You have one supporter here.

SnugglePuggle94Jun 14, 201613 votes

People are being negative because he called out statements that were really in fact true. They weren't incorrect or fallacies. He just has the mindset that Riot knows better than everyone when they really don't.

NewGuy101Jun 14, 201625 votes

I'm not a Zed or Talon main(I do want to play more Talon though), but let's compare them.

Talon: I have abilities that force me to get up close and personal, which allows me to deal damage to you while you deal damage to me.

Zed: I have abilities that let me sit next to tower while still killing you and getting all my farm

Talon : I have to blink/ult in for my kills and run back out before I die.

Zed: I have to do the same. But I can blink out. and not die.

RianJun 14, 201611 votes

He is not wrong. Zed is incredible safe in farming long range poke and all in. Sure there are some possible "counter" like Lissandra and item 3157 . However all you achieve is not going to die, but not beeing able to kill him. Btw Zed winrate isn't that low for skilled player.

WarcrusaderJun 14, 201611 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lemon Graber,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=eEMPw1MZ,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-06-14T19:56:02.705+0000)

Zed also has the highest ban rate. It's not all about being op its about being fun to play against too, and he so isn't. He just ults you and there is nothing you can do. You either die or he blinks back and he is safe.

Plus his nerf was actualy a buff. 25% more damage makes up for the 25 base damage lost.

As someone who plays Zed whenever I get the chance in a fair matchup, Zed isn't difficult to kill once he hits 6. Yes it may be challenging, but theres a trick to it. 90% of the time when someone is ulted by Zed, they keep moving in the same diection. For instance, if Zed ults you while you are walking away from him towards your tower, your basic instinct is to keep moving right? This is the thing that people do to give Zed his maximum damage from his ult proc. All he has to do if w,e,q in a straight line and its over. The way to beat this is while his ult is casting (when him and his shadows descend on you) move in a straight line. But, as soon as he is on top of you and reappears, flash or move to the side. This makes it harder for Zed to hit you with two Q's and even one W because you arent in a straight line like he would thought you'd be. It may sound sketchy on text but trust me, it's gonna make the Zed lose a lot of damage compared to what he wouldve done to you.[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Un7uckyJun 15, 20168 votes

soooo as long as zed doesnt make a mistake he is fine? yea of course if he misses his skillshots then he cant kill you, then he jumps back to his starting position and free farms while you back on 25% hp

StarlighteJun 14, 201615 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ThEntropist,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=eEMPw1MZ,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-06-14T19:30:07.735+0000)

So I'd be curious what your actual reasoning is here other than feeling. AP itemization has felt pretty decent in my experience. Also with blue buff and infernal dragon giving large +% AP, I've been reaching very high amounts of AP. So if you have anything in particular that you wanted to chat about, I'd be happy to discuss in greater detail.

I think I can elaborate on this one. I play almost exclusively mages in mid, and have been around since Fizz's release (god those days were awful). Never before have I felt this "forced" into linear build paths as a mage before. The first few items most mages are forced to build are Catalyst, Tear, Seeker's, Lost Chapter, or Negatron Cloak. Out of these items, 2 of the give AP. And out of the items they build into, few of them give over 60 AP when completed.

Sure between Elder Dragon/other things, overall AP MIGHT (rng on dragons is not something I particularly feel is fun...) be higher at full builds, but prior to that at almost all stages it feels like mages do less damage. CDR itemization really just kind of hides this problem. Because every item (not really) has CDR you can throw spells more, but to throw more spells you need mana. But to get mana you need to give up on higher AP items.... So it's kinda a vicious cycle in midlane where nobody ever really feels good about anything they're building. Seeker's armguard is pretty much obsolete when your opponent gets serrated, and the double tap nerf to Zhonya's feels especially bad.

Across the board, you're right. AP is probably technically higher at full build. But I bet (and you can look at numbers that we cannot) that until roughly level 14+, at all stages of the game, AP is lower across the board. (meanwhile the only champions that have had changes to their ratios to compensate for all these item changes were mages who got updated.... meanwhile the rest of the cast sits on S1-5 ratios.)

majulitoJun 14, 20167 votes

So mages have to rely on a temporary buff whose timer is known to everyone and a random dragon spawning? Ap values are lower with the item update. However cdr is plentiful to the point where its almost harder to not hit the cap or exceed it than be below it. This is fine for mages that are utility focused but for mages more centered on damage especially in a single rotation its quite noticeable the loss in damage.

AdalvarJun 15, 20167 votes

I think the point is how low base AP is at the moment and how sometimes even high-end burst mages can feel underpowered because they don't get enough raw AP in their first set of items to fuel their burst combos causing them to be unable to burst down priority targets by a very small margin on several occasions. Cases like this include Brand, where despite having massive AOE dmg, has low AP scalings and requires too much set up to fully execute his combo in a teamfight and making him nigh-useless ir if he's even slightly behind on the item curve. On the other end of the spectrum this causes mages with either massive scalings but slow/delayed combos such as Anivia and Viktor, or sustained damage mages like Swain and Azir, or even mages with mixed scalings such as Vlad to step in and fill the void left by pure burst mages.

That also creates an over-reliance on AP multipliers like Deathcap and Void Staff, both items that have wonky buildpaths and stiff combine costs, or on the AP multipliers of Infernal and Blue Buff which are conditional on too many outside factors (dragon and buff steals and even the willingness of the jungler to give the blue to the mid laner). When comparing AP casters to their AD counterparts, they have a much heavier reliance on raw AP, unlike AD who can scale via armor pen, crit or attack speed, thus not requiring as much raw AD, unless you are Jhin ofc. In a nutshell it's not satisfying to have your core power curve be reliant on external factors.

Also the fact that even with stacking items, AP amounts won't scale up as much due to the mana and AP nerfs to ROA, causing a class of champions who already had troubles scaling into lategame, even more issues in scaling into lategame and creating an issue where the powerspike gained from a ROA/Seraph's fully stacked doesn't grant the same satisfying powerspike it did before. Case and point of the former, Twisted Fate who went ROA to get a potent spike and be more relevant mid-lategame. Case and point of the latter, Karthus, who went double stacking and ended up at full build with over 1000 AP, which generated a visible impact on his ultimate lategame. In other words the end game reward for the risk you took with going with stacking items isn't quite as good/satisfying from a pure damage perspective.

A simple point to this would be to somewhat increase AP amounts on basic items and heavily increase AP on stacking items but lower the AP multiplier passives like Rababon and Void Staff (and perhaps streamline it's buildpath/lower its combine cost) so that mages can get their powerspikes in a more satisfying/organic/steadier way.

CLG MercenaryJun 14, 201610 votes

Why do you hate tanks?

RiotRiot ThEntropistJun 14, 201623 votes

We don't.

Lv1 Facecheck GGJun 14, 201622 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ThEntropist,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=eEMPw1MZ,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2016-06-14T21:12:56.192+0000)

We don't.

Rammus ok.

QuephaJun 14, 20167 votes

Fizz's auto range kept at 175 but now his hitbox size was increased, does this mean he can now attack targets slightly farther away from his center?

RiotSmashGizmoJun 14, 20166 votes

Technically, yes, but it also means that those targets can attack him from farther away.

KüramaJun 14, 20161 votes

Does the increase in hitbox affect his skills (his E or his R?)

LightsawJun 14, 20163 votes

So will we be expecting a nerf to Jayce or Viktor anytime soon. How about Vlad aswell. All 3 of them do so much damage and are ranged. Overall i Think All 3 of them need a nerf.
When will Urgot be reworked? I feel his ult doesn't fit in with his kit.
NERF DARIOUS!!
NERF TRYNDAMERE'S ULT

Thanks for your time <3

RiotRiot SotereJun 14, 20167 votes

Vlad has some changes lined up. Viktor is always on my radar, though he's not as an immediate of a concern.
Sadly don't have the info. on this.
For sure. He just keeps killing me. I went on an Illaoi binge and I was like, "there is no counter!", and then I lost a couple games in a row to Darius. Mind you, my 'no counter' statement was hyperbolic anyhow. I lost over half of my lane match-ups. I might just be bad.
Probably not doing anything in the near future to his ultimate. Definitely understand where you're coming from in terms of frustration and playing against. Have to shut him down for a long time before you can actually kill him.

CritkeeperJun 14, 20169 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=eEMPw1MZ,comment-id=00180000,timestamp=2016-06-14T22:19:11.254+0000)

Vlad has some changes lined up. Viktor is always on my radar, though he's not as an immediate of a concern.

Sadly don't have the info. on this.

For sure. He just keeps killing me. I went on an Illaoi binge and I was like, "there is no counter!", and then I lost a couple games in a row to Darius. Mind you, my 'no counter' statement was hyperbolic anyhow. I lost over half of my lane match-ups. I might just be bad.

Probably not doing anything in the near future to his ultimate. Definitely understand where you're coming from in terms of frustration and playing against. Have to shut him down for a long time before you can actually kill him.

If you want Trynd to be less frustrating to fight against (and the ult is off limits obviously) then replace mocking shout's false choice with something else.

I've played over 6 thousand games with Trynd, and any die-hard Trynd main will tell you that most of what makes him both frustrating to play against and very binary is the fact that mocking shout is probably the most unhealthy ability in the game. If you stay and fight, your ability to fight is debuffed; if you try to run, both your ability to run and fight are debuffed.

Trynd can use his dance animation, which starts nearly the same as his mocking shout cast animation to force you to turn around multiple times while running away from him. Turning around a bunch of times in anticipation of the actual shout is tantamount to be slowed in the first place. It provides a false choice, has a ton of hidden power, causes Trynd to win damage trades that he shouldn't, and on top of that forces Trynd into a binary pattern of thrive or starve.

Yasuo's windwall is about as frustrating but is strictly superior from a design point of view because it doesn't make yasuo feast or famine-- its utility is game changing no matter what the score is, and you can position and play around it without making yasuo feel worthless. It allows him to make fights more complex, and meshes with the mobility of his kit, which is designed to thrive in complex fights. Yasuo generally cannot apply reliable damage to you without coming out from behind the wall, so its long lasting utility is gated in fights for which yasuo is the aggressor.

I've said this before, but because people who don't play Trynd day in and day out don't understand what makes him tick, and because Undying Rage is much "noisier" than mocking shout, people cast it aside: if mocking shout were replaced with something that is actually functional for league of legends, Trynd would be half as frustrating to fight and twice as fair.