Patch Chat 6.7 - Playtesting 101

RiotSkarnye West·4/5/2016, 6:58:12 PM·1 votes·152,591 views

Hey all,

Welcome back to Patch Chat! We’re Riot’s Playtest Team, a group of high ranking League players whose job it is to play the hell out of things (lane tests, competitive testing, etc) and give actionable, objective feedback to designers.

Every two weeks (concurrent with the release of patch notes), we’re going to be hosting a discussion here on the state of balance on the current patch. Take this opportunity to ask us any questions about the state of the game.

Today, we’ll be talking about the Patch 6.7 Kindred changes, detailing the iterative process we use in playtesting, how patch notes evolve as they pass through our team, and what skills we use as playtesters. Prospective playtesters, listen in, and if you think you’re up to snuff, consider applying!


Context

First, we get a changelist with the context for the change. In this case, Kindred has been dominating the early game, but only in the hands of experienced players.

The proposed solution? Lower base damage on Dance of Arrows, a decreased heal on Wolf’s Frenzy, and Lamb’s Respite can only be self-cast now.

How quickly we understand the context and how it suits - or doesn’t suit - the changes is probably the most critical part of our job. The question isn’t always about power. We don’t just want to nerf Kindred, we want to do so in a way that won’t punish inexperienced Kindred players that much.


Hypothesis

From here, we try to make predictions about the changelist.

We like the change to Wolf’s Frenzy; with lower sustain early on, Kindred players won’t be as able to use their massive sustain advantage early to invade and gank while other junglers are left chugging their potions. Moreover, since the heal is contingent on movement, higher level players who are kiting camps more will actually feel this nerf more strongly. Same goes for the Lamb’s Respite change: inexperienced players will benefit from the more intuitive use of their ult.

Our main concern is that the Dance of Arrows nerf hits new Kindred players too hard, killing their early clear speed and dueling potential. In other words, the Q changes are skill agnostic - they hit experienced and inexperienced Kindred players about the same. Unlike the other proposed changes, this doesn’t line up with the goals of the changelist.


Testing

When testing, we can’t just run a few random games and come away convinced. We’re limited to only a few tests per change on a given patch, and we can’t test everything. To compensate, we want to isolate as many variables as possible. Here, since we're concerned with Kindred’s early invade power, we set them up to succeed against immobile junglers like Cho’Gath and (spoilers) Taric, and set them up to fail against pressure fighters like Rek’Sai and Lee Sin.

Four snowballed Kindreds later, we come away with one conclusion: Kindred is still capital-S Strong in the hands of experienced, high Elo players, despite these nerfs.


Feedback

However, we continue to have concerns about the Q nerfs. Our assessment is that Kindred probably would survive nerfs of this magnitude, but the hit to Dance of Arrows makes the champion quite hard if you’re new to the Eternal Hunters.

Fast forward through a few days of discussion with designers and the Q changes get pulled: Patch 6.7 ships two Kindred changes, targeting their two zone abilities, but not Dance of Arrows.

It’s not always that simple, of course. Sometimes we fail to convince designers. Sometimes a change ships that we are still concerned about. Sometimes we’re right, and sometimes we’re wrong, and overall the Core Gameplay Discipline grows and learns when to trust our instincts and when to stick to their design.


Have any questions about what it’s like to work as a Riot playtester? Maybe some questions about other, non-Kindred changes in 6.7? As usual, feel free to ask any questions about balance or what exactly our job is! We will be around for the next few hours and will try to answer as many questions as possible.

Adam "Afic" Cohen Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt Shawn “I Am The IRS” Currie Miles “Daydreamin” Hoard Scott “Sickoscott” Hong Mattias “Gentleman Gustaf” Lehman Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith Blake “Ex Shepherd” Soberanis Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes

556 Comments

Black Jesus lV4/5/2016, 11:44:28 PM36 votes

You asked to have top laners stop relying on Teleport for map control WHY add Rift Herald, that just makes it a 11/10 must have now

The new mastery system, it's kind of ruined the fine line of tanks/devourer champions when nautilus/ANY tank can kill everything. Is there a direction or change for this considering they have insane move speed and the most CC in the game? - with boots of movement speed/lucidity being cheap and the only thing people buy?

Whats the point of making a champion so tanky but still spit out the most damage in game? examples: Poppy, udyr, shen and etc? Is there TRULY a direction this season with how champions are moving because there's just no in-between like the good old days. Instead it's you're either a 2 second melting devourer or a tank that CC's you for days until you're dead?

WHY NERF TALON IF ZED IS AT LARGE? Talon's Zed's #1 COUNTER... AND INSTEAD OF NERFIN THE ITEM THAT MADE ZED OP, "AND ALL OTHER ASSASSINS" You nerf the champion himself.

IS there going to be a patch note that will finally allow players who haven't been punished by the tribunal SINCE hextech crafting that they can finally receive loot? A lot of my friends refuse to play because of how salty it makes them in general.

If there's less people joining the league of legends community than earlier this season/last season, wouldn't you think that there's a problem with the patch notes coming out?

Toxicity has risen because of hextech crafting, people are salt whenever they don't receive loot making them have no better reason to better themselves. (friends have played over 40 games since it's been out and still 0 rewards) Is this going to change?

Why implement Duskblade of Draktharr when you removed Deathfire grasp. Word for word you guys: "Wanted less people to be popped wthin making contact, we want people to have more of a chance to fight back. As well for the balance of AP mid laners and AD mid laners." ISNT THIS CONTRADICTING?

This season was supposed to be about marksmen, Why's it about tanks/Devourer... WILL WE EVER STOP SEEING OP CHANGES TO JUNGLERS/TANKS?

The meta is too large right now with an extremely large pool of champions that are "viable" But only some are OP, the good old seasons where there was maybe 6-8 TOPS is now 15+. Are we going to see more ban slots? Or are you guys actually going to balance out the champions that matter/have the highest ban rate or leave them to control the meta.

The way i see it is, the game just keeps getting worse and worse, my friends stop playing due to toxicity or 0 rewards. The new champions that come out just get left in the corner to rust because the META is so horrible. The changes are too fast without an ounce of thought (Thunderlords/warlords/fervor).
The game is beginning to have 0 OUTPLAY potential, example: Zed used to be HARD To play and there's a reason for that. Now you put a duskblade on him and he just 1 shots and any bronze player can achieve easy double kills. The tank lines are extremely aggrovating and wont get off but can still 1v1 bruisers like volibear does a pot of honey.
Devourer, lets be honest. you Didn't make getting stacks THAT hard... Tank items, let's be honest they deal more AD than a BOTRK these days, and they cost much less? How does one counter warmogs/SF cape? lol? HELLO?
All in all, my time is coming very soon and these changes are getting nasty. I see less and less of my friends log in each day and they have swapped over to MMORPG's or back to DOTA. I love this game, but as history has repeated itself the company within it will drive it into the ground... RIP Runescape, Rappelz, GW2, World of Warcraft AND here lies League of legends dipping their toes into the grave - beginning RIPS of 2015
Hellioning4/5/2016, 7:15:31 PM13 votes

So...was your goal to make sure that Kindred stayed capital S strong after the changes? Because that seems...strange, to me.

Doonyster4/5/2016, 10:21:48 PM9 votes

Have you guys noticed the lack of damage carriers top side? even maybe jungle? With tank items and champs Malphite Nautilus Trundle being so strong its kinda shoving damage dealers out of the top lane. You probably know of the challenger ranked, TSM sub, and streamer Valkrin. His current moto is "League of Tanks (if you can't beat them then join them)" I am suffering this. Please help. I love damage dealing carry's topside so I can carry my team but meta is forcing me away from this. which is hurting in the sol que. Are you guys looking to adjust this or do you like it?

Kei1434/5/2016, 7:46:12 PM3 votes

Also, just finished reading through the original post & patch notes. So here are a bunch more questions!!

  1. During the Kindred test was it the same player playing Kindred?
  2. Were those Kindred players jungler mains against jungler mains?
  3. Curious to see the test plan & results for the Poppy & Zed changes. Care to share?
  4. When doing play tests. Do you guys mimic some of the newer builds [items / skill paths] that come to light? (ex. Graves)
  5. Do you guys ever come up with new builds and theory craft for "competitiveness" in playtests?
  6. What is the test plan like for masteries?
  7. Give me (a bronzie) some more context on the vision adjustments? Anything I can abuse to help me climb?
  8. Do you guys test anything in rotating game modes?
  9. Do you guys test those pesky bugs (in the list of bug fixes)? Or is that QA's job?
ChibiKamisama4/6/2016, 1:09:24 AM2 votes

Ok, i have a few questions/issues with this patch:

  1. Is Leblanc going to be balanced? Every time there is a Leblanc in the enemy team, my team later would get destroyed by Leblanc because of her ridiculously crazy amount of burst damage, and she can basically potentially one or two shot a lot of champions and a lot of champions struggle against her, even if its 2 or even 3 champions against Leblanc alone. I feel like Leblanc could just destroy any almost any champion and turn into a overkill / powerhouse.

  2. About Kindred in early game, Kindred doesn't have the fastest and best clearing in jungle and when she is getting her first few monsters in early game, she heavily needs healing from wolf's frenzy because a few small mistakes can just end up having kindred dead. But nerfing the healing from wolf's frenzy would make kindred's clearing in jg around very early game way more difficult. I know a lot of inexperienced kindred players who don't know how to effectively take the healing from wolf's frenzy to their advantage, and they would die more from trying to clear in early game with the healing from wolf's frenzy getting nerfed.

  3. About Lambs respite being nerfed by only being self-cast, i think it is VERY wrong in a lot of levels. First off, kindred is VERY squishy! and Second, in a lot of scenarios in team fights, she can't just go aggressive in a team fight because it only takes a few crowd control effects ( stun, slows, etc ) to destroy kindred since she has very low defense. But to have her Ult only to be self-cast?? She can't really for example go and save her ally from getting killed by a fed champion by using her Ult because her Ult is self-cast and therefore, a very short ranged Ult. Since it is self-cast, she would have to go closer to her ally to use her ult and save the ally. But since she is putting her self very exposed and in the open, she can just get killed easily from burst and CC abilities. Heck, her whole kit revolves around her keeping her distance and not getting too close, but it you make it that her Ult is only Self-cast, she would have to go deeper into a team fight in order to use her ult to help her allies. But again, that would result of her risking herself to be exposed, open to be destroyed. I feel like the nerf on Lamb's respite would heavily affect her performance in team fights and in general. If you are going to do something like that, can you at least increase her defense stat in the game in some way??

  4. About the Q nerf, almost her whole kit basically revolves around her Q, because her Q is basically her main damage. Nerfing her Q would absolutely devastate kindred in every way possible! ( Team fights, clearing in jg, 1v1, etc. ) And Jg champions that have CC can out-do her in a 1v1 in late game. If you nerf her early game in such a big way, you would indirectly nerf her late game as well! How well her late game depends on how good you were in early game. In general, it would potentially make kindred not very viable / underwhelming.