Patch Chat 6.7 - Playtesting 101

RiotSkarnye West··1 votes·152,591 views

Hey all,

Welcome back to Patch Chat! We’re Riot’s Playtest Team, a group of high ranking League players whose job it is to play the hell out of things (lane tests, competitive testing, etc) and give actionable, objective feedback to designers.

Every two weeks (concurrent with the release of patch notes), we’re going to be hosting a discussion here on the state of balance on the current patch. Take this opportunity to ask us any questions about the state of the game.

Today, we’ll be talking about the Patch 6.7 Kindred changes, detailing the iterative process we use in playtesting, how patch notes evolve as they pass through our team, and what skills we use as playtesters. Prospective playtesters, listen in, and if you think you’re up to snuff, consider applying!


Context

First, we get a changelist with the context for the change. In this case, Kindred has been dominating the early game, but only in the hands of experienced players.

The proposed solution? Lower base damage on Dance of Arrows, a decreased heal on Wolf’s Frenzy, and Lamb’s Respite can only be self-cast now.

How quickly we understand the context and how it suits - or doesn’t suit - the changes is probably the most critical part of our job. The question isn’t always about power. We don’t just want to nerf Kindred, we want to do so in a way that won’t punish inexperienced Kindred players that much.


Hypothesis

From here, we try to make predictions about the changelist.

We like the change to Wolf’s Frenzy; with lower sustain early on, Kindred players won’t be as able to use their massive sustain advantage early to invade and gank while other junglers are left chugging their potions. Moreover, since the heal is contingent on movement, higher level players who are kiting camps more will actually feel this nerf more strongly. Same goes for the Lamb’s Respite change: inexperienced players will benefit from the more intuitive use of their ult.

Our main concern is that the Dance of Arrows nerf hits new Kindred players too hard, killing their early clear speed and dueling potential. In other words, the Q changes are skill agnostic - they hit experienced and inexperienced Kindred players about the same. Unlike the other proposed changes, this doesn’t line up with the goals of the changelist.


Testing

When testing, we can’t just run a few random games and come away convinced. We’re limited to only a few tests per change on a given patch, and we can’t test everything. To compensate, we want to isolate as many variables as possible. Here, since we're concerned with Kindred’s early invade power, we set them up to succeed against immobile junglers like Cho’Gath and (spoilers) Taric, and set them up to fail against pressure fighters like Rek’Sai and Lee Sin.

Four snowballed Kindreds later, we come away with one conclusion: Kindred is still capital-S Strong in the hands of experienced, high Elo players, despite these nerfs.


Feedback

However, we continue to have concerns about the Q nerfs. Our assessment is that Kindred probably would survive nerfs of this magnitude, but the hit to Dance of Arrows makes the champion quite hard if you’re new to the Eternal Hunters.

Fast forward through a few days of discussion with designers and the Q changes get pulled: Patch 6.7 ships two Kindred changes, targeting their two zone abilities, but not Dance of Arrows.

It’s not always that simple, of course. Sometimes we fail to convince designers. Sometimes a change ships that we are still concerned about. Sometimes we’re right, and sometimes we’re wrong, and overall the Core Gameplay Discipline grows and learns when to trust our instincts and when to stick to their design.


Have any questions about what it’s like to work as a Riot playtester? Maybe some questions about other, non-Kindred changes in 6.7? As usual, feel free to ask any questions about balance or what exactly our job is! We will be around for the next few hours and will try to answer as many questions as possible.

Adam "Afic" Cohen Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt Shawn “I Am The IRS” Currie Miles “Daydreamin” Hoard Scott “Sickoscott” Hong Mattias “Gentleman Gustaf” Lehman Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith Blake “Ex Shepherd” Soberanis Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes

556 Comments

Black Jesus lV36 votes

You asked to have top laners stop relying on Teleport for map control WHY add Rift Herald, that just makes it a 11/10 must have now

The new mastery system, it's kind of ruined the fine line of tanks/devourer champions when nautilus/ANY tank can kill everything. Is there a direction or change for this considering they have insane move speed and the most CC in the game? - with boots of movement speed/lucidity being cheap and the only thing people buy?

Whats the point of making a champion so tanky but still spit out the most damage in game? examples: Poppy, udyr, shen and etc? Is there TRULY a direction this season with how champions are moving because there's just no in-between like the good old days. Instead it's you're either a 2 second melting devourer or a tank that CC's you for days until you're dead?

WHY NERF TALON IF ZED IS AT LARGE? Talon's Zed's #1 COUNTER... AND INSTEAD OF NERFIN THE ITEM THAT MADE ZED OP, "AND ALL OTHER ASSASSINS" You nerf the champion himself.

IS there going to be a patch note that will finally allow players who haven't been punished by the tribunal SINCE hextech crafting that they can finally receive loot? A lot of my friends refuse to play because of how salty it makes them in general.

If there's less people joining the league of legends community than earlier this season/last season, wouldn't you think that there's a problem with the patch notes coming out?

Toxicity has risen because of hextech crafting, people are salt whenever they don't receive loot making them have no better reason to better themselves. (friends have played over 40 games since it's been out and still 0 rewards) Is this going to change?

Why implement Duskblade of Draktharr when you removed Deathfire grasp. Word for word you guys: "Wanted less people to be popped wthin making contact, we want people to have more of a chance to fight back. As well for the balance of AP mid laners and AD mid laners." ISNT THIS CONTRADICTING?

This season was supposed to be about marksmen, Why's it about tanks/Devourer... WILL WE EVER STOP SEEING OP CHANGES TO JUNGLERS/TANKS?

The meta is too large right now with an extremely large pool of champions that are "viable" But only some are OP, the good old seasons where there was maybe 6-8 TOPS is now 15+. Are we going to see more ban slots? Or are you guys actually going to balance out the champions that matter/have the highest ban rate or leave them to control the meta.

The way i see it is, the game just keeps getting worse and worse, my friends stop playing due to toxicity or 0 rewards. The new champions that come out just get left in the corner to rust because the META is so horrible. The changes are too fast without an ounce of thought (Thunderlords/warlords/fervor).
The game is beginning to have 0 OUTPLAY potential, example: Zed used to be HARD To play and there's a reason for that. Now you put a duskblade on him and he just 1 shots and any bronze player can achieve easy double kills. The tank lines are extremely aggrovating and wont get off but can still 1v1 bruisers like volibear does a pot of honey.
Devourer, lets be honest. you Didn't make getting stacks THAT hard... Tank items, let's be honest they deal more AD than a BOTRK these days, and they cost much less? How does one counter warmogs/SF cape? lol? HELLO?
All in all, my time is coming very soon and these changes are getting nasty. I see less and less of my friends log in each day and they have swapped over to MMORPG's or back to DOTA. I love this game, but as history has repeated itself the company within it will drive it into the ground... RIP Runescape, Rappelz, GW2, World of Warcraft AND here lies League of legends dipping their toes into the grave - beginning RIPS of 2015
NastyboyAndy14 votes

I feel you, I don't play that often anymore. It is because of these changes that it has become this. I look at the patches and just get off. Seeing how tanks are still overpowered is overwhelming. Classic Riot was better when they just nerfed the scaling. Because they obviously can't handle big changes. Or with this team at least. Your question is so long that I doubt a Rioter will attempt to tackle it.

RiotSkarnye West44 votes

"Question" is a nice way of framing it. Rambling, untargeted, shotgun style rant, befitting a talk radio host like Glenn Beck or Michael Savage perhaps.

Keevalroy26 votes

Rambling, untargeted, shotgun style rant

But something to address regardless since every point he's made hits key problems League is having, yet hardly anything is being done about them. Riot seems to be shrugging and believing everything is fine when it very much isn't...

Edit: To the downvoters, I don't care if I had gotten an answer personally or not, I just hate seeing purposely avoided condescending responses.

RiotSkarnye West56 votes

alright:

  1. We haven't asked top laners to stop taking TP

  2. There have been nerfs to either a top lane tank or a devourer champion or both in almost every patch this season.

  3. We also nerfed Zed

  4. Actions have consequences. If toxic players only behave because they want a reward, there's nothing stopping them from resuming their toxic behavior once they've gotten that reward.

  5. League continues to grow quite consistently in players.

  6. The reason to not be a toxic asshole is to not be a toxic asshole. If somebody's only doing it for a reward/to avoid punishment, I personally would rather just not have them in the game. That's is just my personal opinion.

  7. This was the reason we gave for removing DFG, so I'm not sure where you're getting your idea from.

Adding Deathfire Grasp to a bursty kit really amps up that "woah what happened to me" moment when someone nukes you from orbit. In the past, when we see mages pick up a DFG to double-down on their burst, we've had to balance around that champion which, in turn, makes them even more reliant on DFG to blow people up (or they get changed so much they find an alternative playstyle). Vicious cycle.

Deathfire Grasp also adds a lot more reliability to a mage's assassination attempts, which means they need to commit less for them. If, for example, Ahri only needs to use one charge of Spirit Rush to nuke her target (with DFG + Q + W), she frees herself to use her other two charges to get back to safety. If we accept this will always happen with DFG, Ahri ends up without a lot of extra 'power budget' to do other cool mage-y things like sustained damage or kiting.

While this is also true of Duskblade, there is an important distinction: you have significantly less control over when you use it, which reduces the reliability Moreover, the situation is different, because AP mages are not struggling, while AD mids have consistently been somewhat situational.

  1. That's the first time I've heard somebody complain that the top lane meta is too versatile. Normally it's "when are we going to get more champion options? The meta is too stale!"
Too Tired ToCare11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gentleman Gustaf,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=NjddhxGg,comment-id=002f0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-06T01:29:49.374+0000) because AP mages are not struggling, while AD mids have consistently been somewhat situational. "

No Offense but are you fucking high? and have you actually been playing the game? Lets take a look at all the AD champs mid lane that require no mana, no endurance, and able to just face roll their keyboard and win..... Yas, Zed, and occasionally the rare riven, kha, and ringo...(there are more just cannot think of their names at the time) You guys are constantly releasing more and more AD items that continue adding damage for these type champions where as the AP mage's were left to flounder like a fish out of water. Lets take away the mana potions and barely give mana regen to any of the ap champions and force almost every mage player to have Biscuits in their mastery pages where he could have something else. Lets force every mage to buy Unholy Chalice or Crucible cutting back on their actual damage/dps. oouh and lets add the fact that almost every patch there has been a nerf to an AP item whereas there has been buff's to ad items. Zed and yas are at the fucking point where they can counter their counters at any ELO. Zed melts Talon, Lissandra, Malz, and any other champ that may be his counter. same goes with Yas.... Infinite dashes so you can never click on him, His shield comes back up every what? 3-5 seconds? 20 second ult cd? like wtf? if I am playing Veigar and I throw my ult but target dies before it even hits the target, I have to wait like 2-3 minutes with CDR, even at times where the ability was not even triggered all the way, just mid casting BAM full penalty of CD timer. Veigar is not the only one with this problem.

But yes lets just say AP mages are not struggling, and that AD mids have consistently been somewhat situational. its so rare to see any APC's anymore. sigh.

RiotSkarnye West16 votes

If you think AP mages are rare to see, you don't have a good statistical assessment of what's actually happening in ranked games.

The only AD mids (according to champion.gg) in the top 20 playrate mid laners are Zed (13.32%), Yasuo (11.66%), and Corki (5.43%). That's about 30% of champions being AD.

EfficientDynamo6 votes

To be fair (even if those above failed to communicate the point), the issue isn't with AP mids disappearing: its with AP mids feeling weaker than prior seasons.

There aren't a large number of reasonably viable AD mids when compared to AP mids, so I don't think most people would be surprised with the stats you listed above. And AP mids are often on the winning team. However, AP mids don't feel like they contribute as much to the game (although they certainly aren't useless). This could probably largely be isolated to itemization problems.

RiotSkarnye West8 votes

Could also just be a perception problem. Many people are used to, and thus expect AP mids to just be objectively better than AD mids, and the fact that AD mids can compete bothers them. Yes, AP mids are weaker than previous seasons compared to AD mids. But for several seasons, AD mids were pretty troll picks. By that metric, sure, they've lost power.

IceColdRedHot6 votes

Do your Statistical assessment show: 30% is the playrate of AD mid. (Zed, Yasuo, Corki, Talon, that's about 4-5 champions.) 70% is the playrate of AP mid? ( 30+ AP champions.)

Moreover, there is around 60% ban rate for Zed (according to champion.gg on 6/4/2016). The playrate of Zed should be much higher, without ban.

Personally opinions: Manaless AD champions, Zed and Yasuo, need to be balanced due to the new AD items.

RiotSkarnye West6 votes

AD mids are rarer, so of course those picks are split up. If you want to learn an AD mid, you only have a few options, while if you want to play an AP mid, you have so many options.

To me, all this says is that Zed is too strong, not the class.

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

Yasuo and Corki's play and ban rates are no slouch.... While i agree that there are fewer AD mids they are much more contested picks because they are so strong.

Sadistic Stepdad7 votes

This is relatively unrelated, but I want you to know that some of us appreciate your responses and obvious investment in the game. I especially like your take on toxic players, and tend to agree. The Hextech system can be frustrating when you don't receive many rewards, but it didn't even exist a couple months ago, and I'm not going to spit in the face of free skins and what not.

That said, Zed is too strong. His playstyle is very "no risk, high reward," which is unfortunate for the game as a whole. The only way to beat him is to hard counter him, which essentially limits you Kayle, Malz, or Vlad--Vlad is questionable against Zed unless you're awesome at him, and Malz can be nullified with a QSS, so really it's just down to Kayle. And that sucks.

Oh, or Lissandra. Still sucks, though.

LBDORRITO6 votes

These people don't know how to respond to you gustaf, I'm surprised your being so nice! Thanks.

But to take another point, using your own statistics, 2 of those champs are meant for mid, and are being played over 20% of the time alone. How many mid ap champs are there? Those 2 ad champs have a higher rate of play than a mix of how many other ap champs? Add corki for 30%? 3 ad champs makeup almost 30% of mid? It's because they are too strong. I've heard many opinions stating riot messed up when making zed, and especially yas.

Nombae6 votes

I'm not trying to argue with you here, but you can't just look at "play rates" that's really misleading.

We have to consider ban rates, as that lowers the amount a champion is potentially played (and I realize the emphasis on potential). Zed has a 59% ban rate according to the website you linked. Yasuo has 6.5% with Corki sitting at 3.4%.

At the max end of the spectrum, we'd see Zed close to 29% of the time without banning. One champion potentially played 1/3rd of all games in the mid lane. With Yasuo already in 1/8 without including his extremely marginal ban rate, that's a lot just between two champions that are good at farming and have high kill potential. I'm not sure how you arrived at "about 30% of the champions being AD" when there is also Talon (and to a much, much, much lesser degree, Kha'Zix), we also see Ezreal played mid, rarely Riven. There's plenty of AD mid options than just the three you mentioned.

Play rate in conjunction with ban rate as well as per league would be a lot more accurate depiction of the amount a champion is played. I see a lot more Zed and Yasuo being played when there are specific champions people know they do well against. I see less of this kind of behaviour when I watch some of my lower ranked friend's play. Different play rates among different leagues as well. I'm sure you're aware of all of these points I'm bringing up, but it isn't fair to make light of someone's response while making the same erroneous point literally a sentence after it :P

I'm mainly playing devil's advocate here because you claimed good statistical assessment, but neither my response nor yours are really good for statistical analysis at all :P

RiotSkarnye West11 votes

His sentence was "It's so rare to see APCs anymore". That is categorically false, regardless of ban rates.

KeSoV6 votes

While this is also true of Duskblade, there is an important distinction: you have significantly less control over when you use it, which reduces the reliability Moreover, the situation is different, because AP mages are not struggling, while AD mids have consistently been somewhat situational.

Is that why all mages are being reworked into viability?

RiotSkarnye West25 votes

Only immobile mages are being reworked.

The problem is that "mage" is such a broad category. You've got mage assassins like LeBlanc, Fizz, and Diana, support mages like Lulu and Lux and Morgana, stalling mages like Anivia, whatever the heck Lissandra is, Malzahar doing god knows what, and Aurelion Sol off being his own brand new type of champion.

Even among the immobile mages being reworked, you've got so many different types of champions.

On the AD side, on the other hand, Talon/Zed/Kha'Zix are all assassins, then you've got ADCs (who cheated there from bot) and Yasuo.

Nameless Voice17 votes

Moreover, the situation is different, because AP mages are not struggling, while AD mids have consistently been somewhat situational.

Posts like this just reinforce the idea that Riot don't have a clear understanding of the issues in the game.

Mages are only not struggling when they are against other mages. Anyone playing mid as a mage is just in constant fear of going up against an AD champion, because they just know it will mean ten-twenty minutes of impossible struggle to stay alive and halfway relevant, while having almost no chance of ever coming out ahead or getting a kill. People literally do not want to play mid because they are afraid of being bullied out of lane by manaless AD casters who have all the advantage when dealing with mages, while the mages are forced into suboptimal build paths with poor items in an attempt to both survive, and keep up enough mana to farm in the face of the relentless costless pushing.

And that's not even mentioning how Yasuo basically hard-counters a large subset of mages with his infinite dashes, shield and wall making it almost impossible to damage him with skillshots.

Edit: To be clear, the problem isn't really the AD midlaners as a whole, it's just a small subset of them who completely crowd mages out of the mid lane. Adding items to make the unplayed AD midlaners more viable is a noble goal, but I can't help but question the wisdom of adding such an item while Zed - who benefits greatly from the item - was already the most oppressively strong midlaner, and while Yasuo (who admittedly doesn't use Duskblade) is making life hell for any projectile/skillshot mage.

LA U GH IS F UN12 votes

Exactly. I'm tired of seeing Yasuo and Zed in mid every single game. Zed - unlimited free burst, unlimited free mobility, zero risk (arent assassins supposed to be high risk?) yasuo - unlimited free burst, unlimited free mobility, a small amount of risk

Kudrov5 votes

so much lies, i am starting wondering either if you're paid for working on solutioning changes in the game or simply lying on board.

RiotSkarnye West20 votes

I know somebody has a point when they tell me I'm lying without actually explaining how what I said was false :P

Black Jesus lV2 votes

Here to prove my instances - I'm asking for detailed answers. not JUST BECAUSE.

  1. Yes, you did. In patch chat. it wasn't asked it was implied. As Zirene the caster, pointed out that ALL of top laners are taking teleport and you wanted to see diversity. RESULTING in you increasing teleports cooldowns, so that less players would take it. Then you added rift herald.
  2. So nerfs to top lane tank? Mate please, Poppy was head of the ban/pick since her rework has come out. I don't think that the community really cares if you nerf Sion when he's not even played XD
  3. You nerfed Zed because Draktharr was OP on him but not other assassins? considering they can close the gap better? 4.That makes sense. But as proved in every Hextech crafting post. There's a flamer and soon to be a quitter.
  4. League of Legends IS GROWING. but your numbers have gone down since last season. No matter what angle you look at it from.
  5. Read 4.
  6. Every game there is a point and click champion. Rengar's Q, Talons Q, Zed's passive, Akali (akali can run duskblade well) Q Auto proc, khazix Passive Auto. EVERY ASSASSIN, THERE IS THE EASIEST POINT AND CLICK, BUT OF ALL OF THOSE, YOU CHOSE TO NERF ZED INTO THE DIRT, why not just remove the item if there's so many problems like Feral Flare, DFG. Instead you decided to make one of the hardest champions in the game trash because trash players can play him.
  7. The top lane meta isn't versatile at all. considering the only AD nuker OVER POWERED AS HELL. is quinn. Nobody is playing riven, fiora, the best top lane dancers in the game. But of all you decided to choose Irelia for a buff? the champion that leads like 10% of all Reddit posts on STILL PLS NERF.
  8. You didn't even answer all my questions, GRAND example: WHERES THE META GOING?
  9. Boots of swiftness/Lucidity... still 100% buy rate. You know, that Nautilus with 430 Move spd at 20 minutes.
  10. Bruiser items. I mean cmon seriously? Where is BOTRK when you guys continually buff HP/tank items.

TRULY - I thank you for taking the time to actually tackle these questions. However you just skimmed over them and then just gave up. I've been a 3 year player, and it's truly just disappointing to see that you guys would dodge such serious questions but answer the: "why didn't you buff Urgot" questions. These seriously need to be addressed. I now see why every pro-player bashes the direction. All we want is answers. not that I myself am a pro, but i take the game pretty damn serious. You guys aren't treating the game how you used to: SHAKY. You should always be careful before implementing patches. instead you guys just eagerly get them out of the way and over-power champions to the furthest extent, and keep them there.

RiotSkarnye West6 votes
  1. Trying to equalize the incentives for non-TP spells is not the same as asking players not to take TP.

  2. Nautilus, Malphite, Rammus, Trundle, Shyvana, Udyr (yeah, it's complicated), Yi? Top tank and Devourer nerfs almost every patch.

  3. We didn't nerf the other assassins because - with exception of Talon - they were all struggling prior to duskblade.

  4. Hopefully they learn from this experience and aren't toxic in the future so they don't get barred from future events/rewards

  5. We'll have to agree to disagree because I'm a playtester, not a marketer.

  6. Because none of those champions is doing particularly well. Maybe Talon is doing alright

  7. There are 15 champions with a 5-10% play rate. That feels pretty versatile to me.

  8. The meta, like evolution, doesn't have a particular direction. It may get guided here and there, but it fluctuates and moves around as people discover new things.

  9. There you're actually somewhat on target. Those two boots account for almost 50% more purchases than all other boots combined. That's something we're keeping an eye on, although somewhat cautiously, given the historical relative prevalence of Mercury Treads and Ninja Tabi in pro play.

  10. Pretty sure the last two changes to health items have been nerfs: Titanic Hydra and Dead Man's Plate both. Before that Sunfire Cape got a buff, I suppose, and before that I think the last set of defensive item changes were nerfs to all armor items during the Defensive Item Refactor...

Hellioning13 votes

So...was your goal to make sure that Kindred stayed capital S strong after the changes? Because that seems...strange, to me.

RiotSkarnye West9 votes

Definitely not. Our goal was to make sure we didn't absolutely kill this champion for first-time players. This is especially important on a jungler, given how frustrating an experience it is to have a jungler struggle on your team.

Hellioning9 votes

Okay, but if the changes kept them as capital S- strong for experienced, high ELO players, you didn't actually change anything.

RiotRiot Afic9 votes

Kindred will likely need to be revisited in the near future. It is common for there to be initial changes, have them tested, realize they don't quite hit the goals in the ways we want, and then be iterated on.

cemorn2 votes

Uh....shouldn't you expect any experienced, high ELO player to consistently get S's on all champs? Like what, would making Kindred a solid "D" for experienced players be the kind of change you're looking for?

Hellioning6 votes

I'm not talking in terms of champion mastery. I'm talking in terms of champion balance. I'd like Kindred to have reasons to be picked, but also reasons to be not picked. I don't want to see them every game.

RiotSkarnye West7 votes

Their combined pick ban rate is about 12.5%, so I wouldn't be too worried about that*[slayer-jinx-wink]*

Hellioning10 votes

True. She's not Lee Sin or anything like that.

Doonyster9 votes

Have you guys noticed the lack of damage carriers top side? even maybe jungle? With tank items and champs Malphite Nautilus Trundle being so strong its kinda shoving damage dealers out of the top lane. You probably know of the challenger ranked, TSM sub, and streamer Valkrin. His current moto is "League of Tanks (if you can't beat them then join them)" I am suffering this. Please help. I love damage dealing carry's topside so I can carry my team but meta is forcing me away from this. which is hurting in the sol que. Are you guys looking to adjust this or do you like it?

Philip De Kra5 votes

I agree! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

RiotSkarnye West17 votes

It should be noted that I'm a playtester and not a designer, so this is my opinion as a player. Damage dealers force out other champions in mid/ADC, why shouldn't tanks be able to do the same somewhere? When damage dealers force out tanks top lane the only thing that is left is the low-gold roles (jungle/support).

Tanks want to lane, too!

Doonyster6 votes

Thank you for your response, and I understand you don't represent the whole of Riot, but why not let Tanks mid and bot, and bring variety? Overall we have a very stagnant game that is completely revolving around tanks. ADC is ADC, the only reliable tank killers(All of the off meta bottom attempts keep losing unless fed). Mid is AP damage/waveclearCorkiLux (maybe an assassin if you feel like the perma playable zedZed ), Jungles are either tanks killersKindred or tanksGragas and and supsBraum Leona Alistar are forced tank /tank supporting utilitySoraka Janna. It's great to have tanks that can lane, but tops and jungles have always been about finishing off your teams comp in a meaningful way, like being able to choose scaling damage, tank or brawler. I know you can always go whatever you want in LoL. However, I feel like I'm hurting my teams chances of winning if I'm not a tank or tank killing ADC right now.

RiotSkarnye West11 votes

There has yet to be a meta which doesn't include an ADC.

The fundamental basis of our game relies on an ADC and often a mage. I think that fact colors people's perception of the game because they see all metas through that filter.

Kei1433 votes

Also, just finished reading through the original post & patch notes. So here are a bunch more questions!!

  1. During the Kindred test was it the same player playing Kindred?
  2. Were those Kindred players jungler mains against jungler mains?
  3. Curious to see the test plan & results for the Poppy & Zed changes. Care to share?
  4. When doing play tests. Do you guys mimic some of the newer builds [items / skill paths] that come to light? (ex. Graves)
  5. Do you guys ever come up with new builds and theory craft for "competitiveness" in playtests?
  6. What is the test plan like for masteries?
  7. Give me (a bronzie) some more context on the vision adjustments? Anything I can abuse to help me climb?
  8. Do you guys test anything in rotating game modes?
  9. Do you guys test those pesky bugs (in the list of bug fixes)? Or is that QA's job?
RiotRiot ThEntropist7 votes

I'll answer the ones I worked on/have knowledge on.

  1. We had a few different people play Kindred to get a few different perspectives.

  2. 1 of them was challenger jungle main, 1 plays both jungle and top, and the other has played a fair amount of Kindred but is not a jungle main.

  3. I was responsible for the Zed changes on Playtest's side of things. There were a lot of different directions that we tried out(Q base nerfs, Q base scaling nerfs, Q pass through damage nerfs, Q multiple hit % buffs with Q nerfs, more aggressive W nerfs, etc) and so we did a lot of lane testing. Lane testing is a simple way for us to get initial reads on changes because you only need 2 people to load up and quickly feel out how a lane may go in complete isolation. This allowed us to fast fail things that felt really bad and move to full scale tests for things that seemed promising. Once we got to full testing the topic of how much we expect these changes to hit Zed came into the equation and we compared that to the goals and iterated from there.

  4. We do both. Some people on Playtest are very innovative and are always coming up with their new crazy builds (Titanic Hydra Cho' Gath) and then we also run the FotM builds.

  5. ^

  6. That would need a very in depth responses. High level would be to feel out what we feel is strong, find which ones we would never take, then take them and decide how to buff them into relevance. It is way more complicated than that but it's all about making sure the options are viable.

  7. Very minor. No major take aways that I can give.

Cosnirak5 votes

Why did you decide against any Q nerfs to Zed? Does Riot want to maintain his status as a lane bully?

I feel like the Zed nerfs that are coming in 6.7 are kind of minor. The W cd will help with laning against him a little but it seems like you guys mostly hit his mid game split pushing and team fighting capabilities. This will hurt him a lot more at the pro level I think while leaving him largely the same in less skilled hands, where he can much more easily become a dominating monster.

RiotRiot Afic8 votes

I remember watching the lane tests with those Q changes. Zed was getting smashed pretty hard, and the other person ended up being like, 'wait, are you maxing Q first?' ThEntropist looked over with a frustrated expresion and said 'yes....'

It's possible that we simply had the numbers wrong, but it was such an impactful nerf that Q was simply not doing enough.

Hellioning15 votes

Shouldn't Q 'not do enough'? I mean, Zed's an energy champ. They should, by definition, have weaker spells that are balanced by the fact that he can throw them out without worrying about mana costs in lane. If Zed can win or go even in lane trades, then he's basically guaranteed to win lane against a champ with mana because only one of them is going to run out at some point.

RiotRiot ThEntropist8 votes

We tried them and decided that they would be too impacting because a nerf to q base hits him heavily at every point in the game. Especially because his damage is amped against itself so a small nerf can become major quite quickly. Personally I wanted to try a change where we decrease the base by quite a bit but removed the fall off for each subsequent shuriken hit so that we would reward players that hit 2 or 3 but hurt the players that only hit 1. Sadly it was out of scope of the changes and would need a lot more testing and still may cause other unrealized problems.

I think these changes definitely hurt his laning more than any other aspect of Zed. He has had a very safe lane in the past and this means he will need to make more of a decision to play aggressive or save his escape tool. As for the W AD ratio nerf, he was getting a lot of unappreciated power that seemed to be an easy place to shave power off.

Cosnirak4 votes

Did you try a small Q nerf like just -5 base damage? I understand the compounding damage issue thanks to his W but I think a Q base nerf would encourage Zeds to back at least once without just always waiting until they've shoved and/or harassed (or straight up killed) their lane opponent out of the lane first. His Q ratio is so high that with one early back he can easily come in and just wreck waves and champs alike anyways, though that probably requires not nerfing his W passive, which I agree is a problem.

The problem with his lane safety is that it's too hard punish him for his W being down. You typically need a gank to do it and even then he might live (especially once he has hexdrinker if you're ap). His harass is long ranged so trying to punish it is really sketchy and often how you die to a gank from HIS jungler anyways. The biggest issue here is that as I said this affects his high tier play a lot more than his low tier play. Lower skilled players don't punish well if at all, don't know his W cd let alone track it, and struggle a lot more against his rather fast flying projectile harass because they're not as good at anticipating it.

RiotRiot ThEntropist6 votes

We tried lots and lots of different Q nerfs. Including small ones like -5 AD. Changing that ability hits zed very hard for a few reasons:

  1. As you mentioned reducing base changes it for each shuriken hit so it makes a -5 base into a -10 or -15 with a third hit(Not counting reducing damage for simplicity)
  2. His ult also is based on the damage he has done during it, so it gets multiplied there.
  3. He uses his Q for poke, waveclear, and all ins.

So hitting Q can be a dangerous place to touch. Not saying it is ruled out in the future we just went with some changes that we felt met the goals while still letting the players feel good about what they have.

Cosnirak7 votes

I feel like the power in his Qs needs to be reduced, in part because of what you said. It's simply too big, too important. Like the US's largest banks, it's too big to fail which means it's too big to exist. It needs to be broken up. His E is an aoe with a low cd that encourages him to get in close with his enemies, perhaps shifting some of his power out of his Q and into his E would be appropriate.

RiotRiot ThEntropist12 votes

We will agree to disagree then.

Edit: To add to this. My opinion on moving power into E feels really bad. We tried a model with significantly lower Q base and it made people just want to max E. E is a no counter play ability other than "don't be around Zed.. ever" and that is not fun for anyone. There used to be a world where Zed maxed E and it made you feel like you can not out play him at all. Having power in Shurikens is much better in my opinion.

ChibiKamisama2 votes

Ok, i have a few questions/issues with this patch:

  1. Is Leblanc going to be balanced? Every time there is a Leblanc in the enemy team, my team later would get destroyed by Leblanc because of her ridiculously crazy amount of burst damage, and she can basically potentially one or two shot a lot of champions and a lot of champions struggle against her, even if its 2 or even 3 champions against Leblanc alone. I feel like Leblanc could just destroy any almost any champion and turn into a overkill / powerhouse.

  2. About Kindred in early game, Kindred doesn't have the fastest and best clearing in jungle and when she is getting her first few monsters in early game, she heavily needs healing from wolf's frenzy because a few small mistakes can just end up having kindred dead. But nerfing the healing from wolf's frenzy would make kindred's clearing in jg around very early game way more difficult. I know a lot of inexperienced kindred players who don't know how to effectively take the healing from wolf's frenzy to their advantage, and they would die more from trying to clear in early game with the healing from wolf's frenzy getting nerfed.

  3. About Lambs respite being nerfed by only being self-cast, i think it is VERY wrong in a lot of levels. First off, kindred is VERY squishy! and Second, in a lot of scenarios in team fights, she can't just go aggressive in a team fight because it only takes a few crowd control effects ( stun, slows, etc ) to destroy kindred since she has very low defense. But to have her Ult only to be self-cast?? She can't really for example go and save her ally from getting killed by a fed champion by using her Ult because her Ult is self-cast and therefore, a very short ranged Ult. Since it is self-cast, she would have to go closer to her ally to use her ult and save the ally. But since she is putting her self very exposed and in the open, she can just get killed easily from burst and CC abilities. Heck, her whole kit revolves around her keeping her distance and not getting too close, but it you make it that her Ult is only Self-cast, she would have to go deeper into a team fight in order to use her ult to help her allies. But again, that would result of her risking herself to be exposed, open to be destroyed. I feel like the nerf on Lamb's respite would heavily affect her performance in team fights and in general. If you are going to do something like that, can you at least increase her defense stat in the game in some way??

  4. About the Q nerf, almost her whole kit basically revolves around her Q, because her Q is basically her main damage. Nerfing her Q would absolutely devastate kindred in every way possible! ( Team fights, clearing in jg, 1v1, etc. ) And Jg champions that have CC can out-do her in a 1v1 in late game. If you nerf her early game in such a big way, you would indirectly nerf her late game as well! How well her late game depends on how good you were in early game. In general, it would potentially make kindred not very viable / underwhelming.

RiotSkarnye West9 votes

I'm going to hit these in reverse.

  1. We on Playtest agree, which is why we argued (successfully) to not have the Q changes ship to live.

  2. It's not actually a nerf. This is a buff which makes using that ultimate less micro intensive. If you could previously have cast your ult on an ally, you will still be able to cast it on yourself and have it reach that ally thanks to the range. There is only one situation where this isn't true: casting your ult on one ally to protect an even farther away ally.

  3. Kindred has an extremely fast early clear. I agree that her sustain could use some help. In my optimal world, we'd tone back how much movement she needs to stack the heal, but then give it a lockout so that it couldn't happen back-to-back so quickly. That way inexperienced players wouldn't suffer as much, and the ability could have higher values.

  4. As far as I know, LeBlanc is struggling pretty hard right now.

LankPants3 votes

As far as I know, LeBlanc is struggling pretty hard right now.

This strikes me as BS considering she's a top competitive pick right now. She seems more on the side of too strong than too weak and buffing her at all would make her a must pick or ban competitively.

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