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Patch Chat 6.9 - Playtesting the Mage Update

RiotSkarnye West··1 votes·117,796 views

Hey all,

Welcome back to Patch Chat! We’re Riot’s Playtest Team, a group of high ranking League players whose job it is to play the hell out of things (lane tests, competitive testing, etc) and give actionable, objective feedback to designers.

Every two weeks (concurrent with the release of patch notes), we’re going to be hosting a discussion here on the state of balance on the current patch. Take this opportunity to ask us any questions about the state of the game.

Patch 6.9 was a massive first for Playtest Team. With new items, 15+ champions being worked on, and systemic updates to objectives, jungle monsters, and buffs, it’s one of the biggest set of changes we’ve worked on as a team. However, unlike the overhauls of the Preseason, there’s a lot more pressure on us to be as precise as possible so as not to disrupt the game midseason. And unlike the Preseason, we don’t have a followup Preseason patch to correct midway.

And so the project began early. Our first playtest of the new mages was on November 30th, 2015, back when “Hextech Protobelt” hadn’t even been thought up. That mage was Brand. Vel’Koz and Malzahar followed shortly on his heels, and over the next two months we would play the six core mages (those three plus Vladimir, Zyra, and Cassiopeia) over 100 times.

In late February, the new items began arriving.

According to Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith, this was what was most difficult about the Mage Update: working on so many things as much. “We couldn’t possibly get enough games on every update to be confident in each new update”. This was a sentiment shared by Mattias “Gentleman Gustaf” Lehman, who pointed out that “it wasn’t so much that I didn’t think we’d have the patch ready eventually. It’s that I never knew how we all felt about every change on a given day because there was so much to keep track of”.

With two months to go, items in flux, more new changes coming in every day, Blake “Ex Shepherd” Soberanis and Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes spearheaded the project that probably resurrected our confidence in the whole patch: alignment meetings. As a new team, we’ve been expanding our process with each patch, and learning from our mistakes the hard way. But one thing we hadn’t had to do yet was tackle a constantly fluctuating project with a full team.

In these meetings we would highlight 5-7 core issues we wanted to increase confidence on by the next meeting, detailing the steps we needed to take. Sometimes this meant a specific context for our upcoming playtests to resolve a difference of balance opinion, other times it meant crystallizing our group opinion to deliver more specific and justified feedback to designers.

With a renewed sense of confidence under our belt, we would end up running more targeted tests over time, testing the six core mages another 150 times over the next two months, while simultaneously getting 250 games on the other mages, not to mention lane tests.

Obviously anything which introduces change into the game adds some degree of uncertainty and imbalance. But as we honed in more and more on the more egregious outliers, and as we each started to enjoy aspects of the update, we became more and more certain that we were creating positive player experiences and trimming out the severe imbalances.

So what are we excited about now that the patch is finally hitting live?

Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith

My favorite rework is Viktor because I love that champion, and I think these slight changes make him more viscerally exciting. The pulsing ultimate is extremely satisfying compared to the sustained damage of the old ultimate and the speed of the laser feels fantastic. While Aftershock is much harder to hit by yourself, the payoff is much higher and rewards you for following up on teammates’ CC or landing a W stun.

Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt

Vel’Koz. Because true damage.

Blake “Ex Shepherd” Soberanis

Athene’s Unholy Grail. I’ve always been a fan of heal/dps hybrid battle-cleric type of characters - you should see my D&D character! - and Athene’s allows champions to better fill that battle-cleric role. It’s particularly fun on Nidalee, Karma, and Kayle.

Mattias “Gentleman Gustaf” Lehman

I don’t really play mages that often, but Warmog’s Armor making it easier to get non-armor linked CDR on tanks has me pretty excited.

Shawn “I Am The IRS” Currie

Teemo buffs will always be #1 in my heart

Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes

Zac. His new passive duration is gonna be rad

What do you think about the Mage Update? Have any questions about what it’s like to work as a Riot playtester? Maybe some questions about 6.9 as a whole? As usual, feel free to ask any questions about balance or what exactly our job is! We will be around for the next few hours and will try to answer as many questions as possible.

Adam "Afic" Cohen Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt Shawn “I Am The IRS” Currie Miles “Daydreamin” Hoard Mattias “Gentleman Gustaf” Lehman Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith Blake “Ex Shepherd” Soberanis Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes

416 Comments

warpenguin55552 votes

My favorite rework is Viktor because I love that champion, and I think these slight changes make him more viscerally exciting. The pulsing ultimate is extremely satisfying compared to the sustained damage of the old ultimate and the speed of the laser feels fantastic. While Aftershock is much harder to hit by yourself, the payoff is much higher and rewards you for following up on teammates’ CC or landing a W stun.

judging by the boards i think hes the only one

RiotRiot Afic18 votes

I remember interviewing Nick long ago. He called Viktor being sleeper OP (after his rework, before he showed up in pro play). Sure enough it caught on and had quite the impact on mid lane for multiple patches. This one will definitely take some getting used to, but can still do everything he needs to.

Hinagiku3320 votes

Considering the reasons for Viktor's last changes were to make him smoother to play, since he was horrifically unpopular due to being ungodly clunky to play...is Riot at all concerned that changing Viktor to be clunkier to play will only make him never picked once again?

Not being professional game devs, it's really hard for a lot of us to appreciate elements in a kit the same way you guys do. If Vikot ends up being clunkier to play and has a hard time hitting stuff like Aftershock or the full damage on his ult...well I can tell you that a lot of us are just going to stop playing him and play someone more satisfying instead.

RiotRiot Afic9 votes

I have seen the word 'clunky' mean a lot of different things. In the sense of the responsive-ness of his button presses (the most common meaning of clunky) they all cast the same way they do on live. If by clunky you mean that things are harder to land, then yes, the E2 is harder to land.

In regards to the ult changes specifically, one of the more ridiculous things Viktor could previously do was instant burst people similar to how annie would. This is a play pattern that I would call unhealthy: if Viktor holds on to his abilities, squishy targets aren't allowed to move forward in fear of getting 100-0 bursted. While his new ult is unable to do that to the same extent, he can now pretty aggressively zone out high threat targets with the ult alone.

As an AD player, I actually feel like I have options against this version of Viktor, even though I think it is overall stronger. What it basically comes down to is removing the unhealthy/unbalance-able portions of Viktor's kit (super burst combo that he can consistently get due to reliable wave clear) and adding in more sustained damage/zoning potential.

With all of THAT said, there are so many moving parts that it is incredibly difficult to know where he will actually land, so we will be keeping an eye on how he performs regardless with the intent of doing any necessary follow up work

Scramrail14 votes

Its actually pretty easy to determine where Viktor is going to land. He is going to be incredibly strong in organized play, where a team can be built around him with heavy, preferably AoE CC, allowing him to land his clunky damage potential.

For me personally, I consider a kit clunky if it doesn't really work well on its own. Against even marginally skilled opponents, landing your stun from your W is rare, and because of that his ability to land his aftershock/ult ticks is going to be equally as rare.

Riot has turned Viktor into a champion that will likely be borderline OP in an organized environment with a team built around him, or UP bordering on a troll pick when played by a solo.

While he has a TON of THEORETICAL damage potential, when you really get down to it he is likely only ever going to be getting off half of it in unorganized play, which is where the majority of this game takes place.

I can understand wanting to shift some of his power budget to be more spread out over time instead up upfront, but I cant for the life of me understand why you decided to put such ludicrously long delays on that damage. His E aftershock having a 1.25s delay is a long time considering its on one of the skinniest skill shots in the game. His ult having a 2s delay in a meta that sees almost every champion with over 400 movespeed is just ridiculous. Is there any other champion that has to wait such insanely long times to do their damage AFTER using their ability on their opponent?

In a straight up 1v1, Viktor is likely only going to reliably land the initial damage on his E, the initial damage on his ult, and his Q. If his opponent doesn't have flash then maybe he can get one tick from his ult.

The thing that really kills me is that you could have just as easily given shorter delays on his E/ult, but you simply chose not to. I would absolutely LOVE to see a comprehensive post about WHY his ult damage tick is on a 2 second timer instead of 1 second, and his aftershock is on a 1.25s timer.

Rylais is going to be a core item on Viktor now, likely rushed first or second, and it provides him absolutely NO sustain what so ever, which is a pretty big deal considering his E costs 110 mana at rank 5.

The Anagram King17 votes

Viktor was always sleeper OP. Even before Solcrushed's godly rework. He was just mechanically painful to deal with. Especially during the rise of the mobility meta.

These changes clutter up Viktor's liquidistic motions for no good reason. I've played Vik since his release (nearly). I welcome change. But lowering his teamfight potential to... increase his teamfight potential?

Viktor's potential damage was never the problem. I don't think anybody ever asked for Viktor to be buffed, 'but don't worry if you need to make him feel a little more slow and awkward to make up for it!"

WHY?

King Sisyphus11 votes

It was a TERRIBLE change that will turn my already niche main into a flat out troll pick. Viktor derives a lot of his strength from his item versatility, but now since Rylais is going to be mandatory to land aftershock and ult tick damage, he is going to be weaker, not to mention how he is at time of writing, the second lowest win rate mid. Of course win rates don't depict the whole picture, but when your sample size is literally every game from the most played game in the world, some truth has to be in the numbers.

Evoohhhh19 votes

this whole jungle timer "thing" is absolutely tragic.... being able to track the enemy jungler through his clears makes this role a pointless mini-game of hide and seek and lowering the potential of ganking lanes. I am a junlge main and im considering dropping the role completely

Bacunwulf13 votes

"My favorite change was to Anivia", as said by no sane person. item 3070 Anivia item 3070

Dabluechimp1 votes

i love her changes, she has more utility and more team fight dmg at the same time.

Bacunwulf6 votes

Before or after the part of having to have it out for 3 seconds in the same spot before it does the old amount of damage? Or the part where they gutted most damage on Q in favor of adding a whole extra .5 seconds to the stun at max rank? Or the part where her ult has a slightly higher slow in favor of no longer reducing attack speed? Where is this extra utility and damage hiding? Also where will the extra mana required to keep said ult out long enough to even be half as good come from since regen is lowered overall?

TheOGSnow5 votes

I'm really anxious about the anivia rework as well. She's one of my favorite mid laners, and I'm having the same thoughts you are.

Merxamers10 votes

Despite what Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith, this really feels like a nerf to Viktor without any real reason. As far as i know, he wasn't a problem to begin with, and with the drastically weakened waveclear i don't think he'll be picked at all in the upper skill levels anymore.

The Blue Rajah3 votes

But his waveclear is stronger now. An augmented laser does more damage if both parts hit, it's just much easier to dodge with the increased delay. But minions don't dodge...

Hinagiku335 votes

But Viktor's laser could already easily clear minion waves. Reducing the laser damage and making the Aftershock easier to dodge just makes it worse against enemy champions and the same against minions. That's a net nerf.

RiotCommander Wu7 votes

Hey Merxamers! His wave clear is actually stronger once he gets the Augment and you're guaranteed to hit the Aftershock as the minions clash against eachother and set-up nicely to clear em all. His poke damage from the first laser is reduced but the reliability of it is upped. I see that personally as a buff and I'm not sure how you feel about the ultimate but it's much more exciting for me to see the huge chunks of damage it does when it pulses and I do miss some of the initial damage but I felt overall, this version is stronger than the old one. I think he'll be picked in high ELO for his waveclear and possibly see some pro-play as well.

Nefas4 votes

I personally really hate the changes in theory but am willing to give them a try. It seems like his offensive ability has been gutted in exchange for his theoretical reactive/defensive ability being highly buffed. I still want to be be able to go on offense as Viktor and that doesn't seem possible. There's no way to land a W for E/R full damage by yourself, 99% of the time.

One question that's slightly more feel based - did R get any QoL changes to help with the seeming disconnect between VFX and damage? If R just uses the little mini pulse on Live it seems like a pretty huge disconnect from the large amounts of damage it is doing on later pulses - a la Xerath ult prior to this patch but even more limp?

RiotCommander Wu4 votes

The ultimate got some VFX changes to better convey when the burst happens so it's more readable. Aftershock hits are most likely not going to happen on your own but are much more rewarding when you do get them. I think Viktor can still go on the offensive but yea hes better in a bit more of a drawn-out fight. I feel he still has decent burst but not enough to instantly or near-instantly kill an enemy carry unless significantly ahead.

AMYS GRAVE6 votes

so how is laning against an assassin supposed to go? If he needs a drawn out fight then playing against someone who can 100-0 him before his abilities even tick is going to be a problem.

BetweenSkill9 votes

The belt... it deals so much damage. Was that the goal for it? Or was it for mobility? I really dislike the idea of this item making it to live :(

Zenthon Prime8 votes

How are poke mages feeling after this patch? On paper (and from the limited testing I did), they seem to have gotten basically nothing and are either the same (read: still mediocre) or worse.

I main one, so I've been pretty concerned about the class for a while. Xerath and Ziggs are getting buffs, but they aren't very big and don't fix the underlying issues.

RiotS0bey8 votes

Poke mages tend to be strong when underlying systems benefit the effects of poke (ie low sustain in the game, high objective HP or resistances on dragons or turrets, increased price of MR, poke-enhancing masteries etc). Right now there is a lot of access to sustain- both systemically via masteries and itemization and in meta champion picks (Soraka, Janna), and turrets are not hugely tanky. That being said, Poke mages will still be able to find in 6.9 just like they were pre-6.9; they need to fill a specific niche in a team or used to counter specific champions (Azir) to be most successful. I feel like poke mages will be just as strong as they were before 6.9, and they might actually be getting a nice buff from some updated mage items like Tear, Morellonomicon, or RoA.

Zenthon Prime10 votes

So basically, no improvements. Maybe a better late-game at the cost of early nerfs (better damage from Archangel's in final builds, but far later Luden's). On itemization, all of the poke mages will need Tear-Morello's for mana sustain equivalent to old Morello's, but that delays the powerspike from Luden's (which they also need). RoA isn't bought on poke mages right now and it's getting nerfed, so that isn't happening.

I mean, are you guys looking at this at all? Poke mages are pretty bad right now (Xerath has a pathetic ~52% winrate at 125+ games played), and in the supposed "mage update" they received next to nothing outside of minor, personal buffs. Their favorite items got nerfed or effectively removed, they still have no keystone....when are we going to see anything for this class? It's not like pokers as a whole are useless, as Corki exists.

Alüe7 votes

Forced itemization builds and lack of any early game potential, doesn't this sound sort of familiar? perhaps just a passive farming lane? seems like a very restricted sense of playstyle that riot has been trying so hard to free of every other role.... No key stone lack of mp ap keeps getting reduced (don't even get me started on item slots now needed for mana items over ap) There is no love for artillery mages, i get the feeling they feel like they are unhealthy gameplay.

bacon88er8 votes

When is the patch going live on the servers?

For Viktory8 votes

The Viktor change is quite the hard nerf. That nerf to the q empowered attack being set to when leveling the ability rather then it passively doing that as you level, sure the shield is the only cool change but damn late game there goes 100 dmg off his q lol and early game since no one maxes q first your empowered attack will be stuck at 20 dmg. Then the new laser is going to be extremely clunky... Sure theres more dmg when hit together but GL hitting that. Same goes for that tick rate on his ult.. Officially a weaker target. This nerf is huge.. Rito Games at their best

ranruy7 votes

I got a question. Why the huge nerf to Cassiopeia. Noticed she couldn't buy boots. She has no options to getting tenacity. Was this overlooked or intentional?

LoZfan036 votes

How insane is Veigar's new passive? Because it seems pretty insane... Should we expect to see Veigar Support become a thing finally after its extremely brief LCS cameo last season?

RiotRiot ThEntropist7 votes

It depends on how scrappy a certain game is. This makes Veigar happy about games where there is a lot of fighting because he gets so many extra stacks.

Personally I don't think support veigar is that much better, because even though he is getting slightly more AP he lost the damage based on the enemies AP. Although I know Ex Shepherd thinks this might make him viable, so we will have to wait and see.

Xevozz6 votes

As a malzahar main, I got a few serious dislike with his skin rework, 1.You cant see the upper parts of his face (he is not some void creature, he is human) 2.No rune patterns on his robe 3. spider eyes on the top of his robe that i believe was a nice attempt to get rid of some negative space on final artwork but failed

A champion as great as malzahar should of gotten special attention like taric's rework , focusing on one champion

SaltyKracka4 votes

Hey guys, are you really, really sure that these Teemo buffs are going to be a good idea? I mean, he's already pretty close to balanced, none of the items he builds are getting nerfed (some he might build are even getting buffed!), and the major MR items are getting nerfed to shit in the very same patch.

It feels like with all these indirect changes the direct changes are going to put him over the top.

...By that same token, I feel Darius might end up needing nerfs in order to avoid having to nerf items that help other champs (Renek, Olaf come to mind) while also keeping him in line.

RiotRiot ThEntropist20 votes

I'm against every Teemo buff we have ever done. Too bad he wasn't deleted yesterday when we had the chance.

SaltyKracka1 votes

Dohohohohohohohoho.

Srsly though, no concerns whatsoever?

RiotRiot ThEntropist9 votes

I'll find someone with some more context than I do to answer your question.

RiotI Am The IRS10 votes

Hey SaltyKracka,

Sorry about the delay, and for the record I'm not the designer who worked on these changes, I did work closely with him though. I don't think these changes fix the underlying problems with Teemo, in order to do that I believe we would need to do much larger scope changes.

“Hey guys, are you really, really sure that these Teemo buffs are going to be a good idea? I mean, he's already pretty close to balanced”

Teemo has been out of the meta for a while now and currently has a low average winrate + experienced winrate, these aren't the only things we go off but they are decent indicators that point towards him being slightly too weak.

“none of the items he builds are getting nerfed (some he might build are even getting buffed!), and the major MR items are getting nerfed to shit in the very same patch.”

The midseason update will be a pretty disruptive patch that will be hard to accurately predict but will hopefully be ironed out in the next couple patches. I think the biggest change with items that will affect Teemo's performance will be the QSS changes, certain squishies could have trouble dealing with the R + E damage while conveniently dealing with the blind (QSS will still deal with blind) when they previously had an option.

“It feels like with all these indirect changes the direct changes are going to put him over the top.”

Overall the Q, and passive changes should feel like quality of life changes that will help the teemo player feel a little bit smoother on the rift. The R changes will most likely be the biggest buff on the changelist while still being fairly minor, they reduce the recharge time by a little over 10% and lower the mana cost. The mushrooms will still have plenty of counterplay options like red trinkets, pink wards and human sacrifices (just kidding… mostly). My hopes are these changes bring teemo up to a more level fighting ground and if they heavily miss their mark we would definitely take a second look. Like I mentioned at the beginning I don't think these changes fix some of the underlying problems and in his current form could cause higher frustration than most champions when he is “balanced” or slightly strong.

Cheers, I Am The IRS

Yamispade4 votes

I'm honestly curious as to why the humongous change to Malzahars playstyle happened, yet most other mages got pretty much no changes other than either Buffs or Nerfs but no real actually change to what made them the champ they were. Basically now his Ult is terrible and way too weak, his reliance upon what originally was a added bonus to his kit is far too much. Like building his ult at regular intervals is almost pointless with the overall damage reduction. He went from being a fun and strong mid lane mage to one that essentially is either a good jungler, or a good top laner if you wanna get the most out of his main source of Damage due it the need to now build Hybrid over AP.

Brutusness3 votes

Can anyone inform me of how Swain feels now? I've heard wave-clear is much less of a hassle.

RiotCezium14 votes

I actually really enjoyed the rework for Swain. I think he's probably a little stronger in top lane than mid lane. His waveclearing is definitely stronger and his last hitting, while still not great, is certainly better. He's lost a lot of the bullying potential he had in the old Swain, but he's gained a much stronger late game (MOAR ult birds, higher ratios). He also synergizes pretty well with lockdown with the damage from his Q, and the flat damage amp on E makes it possible to focus on leveling other abilities with better incentives (Q -> W -> E imo). His zoning is cool now too, and he's capable of locking off areas of a fight now that Beatrice lasts for 4 seconds in a given zone.

All in all, I actually really enjoyed the rework once I got used to the power shift. That will probably be the biggest pain point for Swain players - understanding that his lane bullying is just straight up worse, but he's received more ability to waveclear and more power later in the game in return.

Brutusness1 votes

So what you're saying is, play safer and use the easier waveclear to rack up cash, and hold out until late-game to go full bird mode?

RiotCezium4 votes

Pretty much. He's still prone to being kited and hit pretty hard by grievous wounds, but all in all his late game is pretty fun, at least for me compared to Live Swain (where I don't really care for his late game)

Nefas1 votes

Does the mana buff on ult feel really good for late game? That's one thing I dislike about live Swain - one late game team fight and you are fully done mana wise since it feels really bad slot-efficiency wise to pick up regen items. He needs so many stats :/

RiotCezium4 votes

Yeah, his mana costs feel, way, way better now at every point in the game. Nearly every ability had the mana costs cut and the passive restores more.

I've been building just the item that builds out of catalyst (the new one) and that has been plenty good for all my mana needs at every point in the game. You don't want to leave your ult on forever, but it does feel a lot better for the most part.

IIIR e v e n g e3 votes

WHY NOitem 3020 FOR Cassiopeia

WoundedLeaf12 votes

http://st.elohell.net/public/chill/dd1662d5e3a6595615bc9cfb6366b880.jpg Apparently thats why XD

Quality Content2 votes

I have a bit of an odd question. Have any of you tried rageblade on Azir? His soldiers were special cased to work with sated so I'm wondering if they'll also work with rageblade.

RiotRiot ThEntropist9 votes

We did try it. I believe the conclusion was that it is straight booty.

RiotRiot Afic7 votes

Yup. Played it, hated it, and might have actually convinced them to remove that interaction, as it felt like a huuuuuge trap. Dunno where they ended up on that decision, but I was certainly tilted after the playtest where I went this item. MAYBE as a 5th/6th item it could work, but lets be serious, azir is already strong enough if he has that many items

Saixos2 votes

NOOOOO I missed it D:

Hope you're still answering questions!

How does the team feel about the dragons? Specifically the earth dragon seems out of touch - unlike the other dragons it doesn't benefit a team in a defensive position at all, and I don't foresee it being contested very much at all. What am I not seeing here that caused you to go forward with this version of the earth dragon?

Also, which ADCs does the team think will be the best performers in this patch?

RiotRiot Afic5 votes

Earth dragon is an interesting one. I actually recently described it as the least enticing dragon that probably has the most potential/possibly the 'strongest'.

The thing about Baron is that he has a lot of defensive stats/reduces your damage dealt. Turns out true damage doesn't care much about any of that (the value of the true damage is calculated pre-mitigation, so it is actually more than a 10/20/30% damage increase. The speed at which you can simply burn down Baron is pretty surprising.

I agree with your analysis of it being a lesser option when behind, although if you have 1-2 earth dragons, are behind, and happen to win a team fight, you can DEFINITELY rush down baron easier than before. It is more of a higher risk-higher reward type scenario.

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