Patch Chat 6.11 - Better Nerf Irelia

RiotSkarnye West··1 votes·116,650 views

Hey all,

Welcome back to Patch Chat! We’re Riot’s Playtest Team, a group of high ranking League players whose job it is to play the hell out of things (lane tests, competitive testing, etc) and give actionable, objective feedback to designers.

Every two weeks (concurrent with the release of patch notes), we’re going to be hosting a discussion here on the state of balance on the current patch. Take this opportunity to ask us any questions about the state of the game. As Trinity Force is getting changed in Patch 6.11 to build out of Stinger and Zeal, we're especially interested in the impact this will have on its purchasers.

Patch Chat has been running for several patches now, but we’re still iterating on the format. With two new members starting in the last few weeks, we’re taking the opportunity to introduce ourselves and ask for any feedback about the format of Patch Chat. What do you like about Patch Chat or wish to see in the future? What do you hate? Do you have a favorite playtester?

Adam "Afic" Cohen I used to lead a competitive raiding guild in vanilla WoW (Nightmare’s Asylum).

Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt I worked for NASA writing scripts that automated telescope function to assist in the discovery of new asteroids.

Shawn “I Am The IRS” Currie I’m a rock climbing enthusiast who’s slowly converting Playtest into a team of climbers. So far Ben, Mattias, Blake and Trevor are all in on it!

Miles “Daydreamin” Hoard I really like to climb trees.

Bao “Bao” Lam I didn’t find out that I was Chinese until I was in college! I grew up speaking Vietnamese and doing all Vietnamese culture stuff so I just figured I was full Vietnamese.

Mattias “Gentleman Gustaf” Lehman I take glee in being fancy. It’s especially funny at a computer game company, which is a pretty casual environment. There’s something about getting compliments all day - especially from people I don’t know - that just perks me up and motivates me.

Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith My favorite animated movie is Tangled. It was awesome.

Nicholas “Gleeb” Haddad I’ve played in the LCS for two different teams.

Blake “Sobe” Soberanis I’m a huge caffeine addict. One time I had four 5-hour energy drinks in a 30 minute period during a tournament… that was a disaster. With that much caffeine it becomes impossible to concentrate and I was shaking like crazy. Didn’t sleep for a couple days. 0/10 would not recommend.

Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes While in high school I ran a Youtube channel of me doing card tricks to pay for all of my high school needs. Maybe I’ll be Twisted Fate for Halloween one of these years.

250 Comments

TankofGod10 votes

If you guys haven't been looking at the forums whats the point.

RiotRiot ThEntropist14 votes

I look at the boards a ton, as do many others. Not sure what you mean here or what point you're trying to make.

TNHA Baritone29 votes

He's taking his anger out for the balance team on you. People assume Rioters dont look at the boards because they dont see a Red comment on every single post. However I somewhat agree that there should be a bit more participation on the boards from Rioters on less-popular posts. I feel like the only way I get a Rioter to read my post is...well I dont know...cause its never happened.

warpenguin5559 votes

Fizz nerfs coming soon? tank fizz is unfair

Thieflin2 votes

Asking the real questions here. I got basically nuked by a tank fizz as an adc being like 6/0. So like, hello? he's tank? Why does he need to proc so much dmg, it's quite unfair, he's just like ekko but with a troll poll, basically kills everything and never dies, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Redaga2 votes

tank fizz and tank ekko

tank melting tier damage extremely mobile heal/ invulnerable skill sets

Veraska8 votes

How are you guys feeling about vel'koz with these changes? i personally from my experiences on him felt he was really strong before these changes, and i expect the 6.10 changes will put him over the edge a bit, how'd did you guys feel about him during playtests?

RiotRiot Afic2 votes

We've actually been have a LOT of success with Vel'koz in playtests before these changes. If you look at the numbers on his kit, he actually has incredibly strong potential. The problem is instead that it is less consistent and therefore has a lower win rate. These changes specifically aim to increase is consistency in accessing his power.

SlashStriker7 votes

Since you nerfed item 3009 Swifties what is its purpose now? I think its viable option if you don't want to get CC-ed and now it slowly start losing its purpose. I mean general movement speed is 45 and swifties gives 55

Shadow Hazard4 votes

I think the slow CC resist is the big selling point still.

Sylverblitz6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shadow Hazard,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=dOREccce,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-06-01T20:22:28.089+0000)

I think the slow CC resist is the big selling point still.

How so? I would take Mercury's Treads over them any day. 25% less slowing effect, situational, or 30% less duration for all cc? I will take the -15 movement speed hit for that.

Shadow Hazard4 votes

Considering how many champs have a lot of slows built into their kit plus the still high popularity of IGB means it is still extremely easy for your mobility to be affected by non hard CC.

J Eevo2 votes

You do realize mercury treads reduce all cc INCLUDING slows right? The only upside of swifties is 15 more movement speed, the 25% less slows is subpar in every way to mercs 30% less cc.

Shadow Hazard10 votes

actually it only reduced the duration of CC, not the effect of them.

RiotSkarnye West2 votes

There's an important point about the difference between slows and other CCs to be made here.

Slows have two numbers; a degree and a duration. Other CCs, on the other hand, only have a duration.

CC reduction reduces the **duration **of CCs, so you can avoid being perma-CC'd. Slows are relatively spammable (red buff or Ashe Frost Shot or IBG are pretty clear examples), so reducing the **duration ** of a slow often does little for you. Reducing the amount of the slow, on the other hand, can allow you to get onto that pesky ranged kiter (and most melee champions have ways to stick once they're on their target).

While sometimes they fulfill the same purpose, the two types of CC reduction are pretty distinct.

SaltyKracka2 votes

Good to see you around, Gustaf.

Now how about them Irelia nerfs?

SlashStriker4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shadow Hazard,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=dOREccce,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-06-01T20:22:28.089+0000)

I think the slow CC resist is the big selling point still.

item 3111 25 has magic resistance

Seraphic Siren6 votes

any update with the support lulu? I mean....you guys said it was critical to pull off lulu from mid lane first (by reducing her power) and then now she is gone....as one of the traditional support (shielding, buffing, kiting for allies) and she basically has the lowest win rate....so i am wondering when is the changing will come up as I am afraid many players love her in support and now it is unable to play her as support.

Utility Veigar5 votes

Any changes on Heimer? He was left out in the mid season update and he's just.. there. Barely sees play. Will he ever be viable in tournament play?

Eternvl4 votes

Yes pls for fuck sakes. He is so weak

RiotRiot Afic3 votes

No plans for Heimer in the near future unfortunately. I do love playing the guy though, so maybe I'll try and see if we can give him a little nudge. Doesn't seem too likely though.

Solarus174 votes

Are you guys looking into aatrox, I feel he has been completely ignored he has been extremely underpowered especially since the mastery changes in season 6 and now that devourer has been changed hesince been greatly hurt by it, why did riot give compensation to other att speed jugglers and not aatrox?

hot egirl3 votes

What happened to Hextech Mystery Champion Shard it wasn't in the patch notes was there a bug thats preventing its release?

RiotRiot ThEntropist1 votes

Sadly this isn't something our team has any info on.

hot egirl1 votes

Ty for the response sad no info tho ;-;. ^_^

hot egirl4 votes

Found an official riot respose if anyone else was wondering

https://twitter.com/RiotSocrates/status/738099627929391104?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Shadow Hazard3 votes

What are your thoughts on maybe not a majority agreed point but logically agreed on by many that part of tanks oppressiveness comes from too much of everything. Most have readily available CC with a few having hard CC in their regular skills, all have massive amounts of self sustain, all the best ones have %health/increase damage based off tank stats(armor/health)/straight free damage increase. Really the only thing that they don't have is that they aren't ranged type champs.

RiotSkarnye West11 votes

I actually don't agree. If those champions didn't have % health damage, they'd need higher base damage (or I guess more CC) to ever damage other tanks (and thus avoid noodle fights). % Health damage allows tanks to hurt each other without upping their damage against carries.

DorkunedAuras5 votes

at the same time, Poppy does 14% max hp damage per Q (assuming they stay in, which they're usually forced to). A Q that's on a low CD. I do agree % hp damage has a purpose, but, as you guys said a while back, poppy has loads of everything a tank could want, including damage.

Shadow Hazard2 votes

Part of the issue is the fact that they are tanks, they are meant to survive a long time, to the point that they are generally hard counters to carries as a whole. In a fight of a tank vs a carry, the tank would likely engage+cc+%health damage for their initiate, and in the process of that fight they will still be putting out heavy damage from either base damage or their kits scaling with tank stats, and they WILL survive long enough to repeat their initiation meaning the squishy will be definitely killed in that time. And on top of all tank, CC utility, and damage, many tanks have very strong built in sustain further exaggerating the issue of their tankiness.

So % health may be good in the tank vs tank, but on tanks vs everyone else it makes tanks too good at too much.

Blossom Crown3 votes

Any word on Syndra bug fixes? Nothing has been mentioned even with a few champion breaking bugs being introduced after MYMU.

What are your thoughts on the balance of Syndra? I know win rate is not indicative but she's sitting at one of the lowest: 45%.

RiotRiot ThEntropist4 votes

No word that I know of bug fixes. Do you have any bugs that you can reproduce? I'd be happy to pass those along to the designer, but most of the struggle in bugs is finding what causes them.

I also believe Syndra is on the radar for being a bit weak. No promises on if she will get changes, but I do know she is at least being looked at.

Overlord Forte7 votes

Her ultimate literally does not pick up spheres manipulated by her Q/W/E for several seconds. It's costing her enormous amounts of kill potential. It was reported back in mid patch 6.9.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk7FVu3c3Ao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZWjyXt3LNA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aND9G80RSK0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-SyEuYHSVI

Not to mention the W break bug (it goes on cooldown when she's CC'd in the pull animation), or the E knockback not stunning/knocking back (again), or the fact whenever she uses her ultimate she physically desyncs from the game world and wrecks locked camera players. That desync one has been there for 2 years now.

She's got a lot of bugs that just sit around, so :)

Edit; here's a playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6o_Jh1Wm2f54JKXGW6zJwe5r4t4mawU4

Blossom Crown5 votes

I know how to reproduce some of the bugs but I don't have any way to record for evidence.

  • Syndra's ult doesn't pick up all the spheres sometimes. So if you've set up a 7 sphere ult, it can become a 3 sphere ult. This is affected by Q/W/E manipulated spheres. Syndra loses over 50% of her burst.
  • If Syndra uses Force of Will and is CC'd whilst holding sphere(s), then you can't reactivate.
  • Movement animation. Syndra creep blocks (for the lack of a better term) herself.
  • When you Q/E combo, the E cone hitbox is pushing the enemy away at very strange angles causing the stun to miss even though you aim it head on. Also, there are still instances of knockback and stun not working although a lot rarer than in early Season 5.
  • Syndra, after ulting, stutters across the screen for several seconds. It can be difficult to control yourself during this.

These are the main bugs I've encountered. Syndra's death animation, recall is bugged too.

That's good to know that's Syndra is being looked at since she has received little to no attention since MYMU.

Sahn Uzal2 votes

What are you guys' thoughts on how the Trinity force changes will affect Gangplank? What kind of builds have you been tryin'?

RiotRiot Afic6 votes

Definitely seems like a nerf to him. The Sheen proc on TF is still strong, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is still the optimal build on him, but I would argue that an indirect nerf to GP isn't necessarily a bad thing.

TheHurricaneGamr3 votes

Is it really a nerf doh? You have more CDR, so you can spam your q more often, so instead of your build looking like this: item 3078 item 3031 item 3508 item 3046 item 3111 item 3812 It now looks like this: item 3078 item 3031item 3142 item 3156 item 3046 item 3158 Same CDR, more pushing power, less crit, but you get some sweet armor pen, which never hurts.

RAKAN IS ÐADDY1 votes

{quoted}

Is it really a nerf doh? You have more CDR, so you can spam your q more often, so instead of your build looking like this: item 3078 item 3031 item 3508 item 3046 item 3111 item 3812 It now looks like this: item 3078 item 3031item 3142 item 3156 item 3046 item 3158 Same CDR, more pushing power, less crit, but you get some sweet armor pen, which never hurts.

I am not much of an Irelia player but I think this build looks better, but whatever you prefer :3 item 3078 item 3124 item 3142 item 3071 item 3158 Last item choices item 3031 item 3742 item 3512 Or maybe item 3026 .

TheHurricaneGamr7 votes

That's a GP build.

gochu bot1 votes

y would u takeitem 3158 when u already have 40% cdr withitem 3071 item 3142 item 3078

Vellich0r2 votes

You already have 40% CDR with just black cleaver and tri force

IAmNeverViable2 votes

Previous I remember someone mention that during testing, nerfing zed's q makes zed weak. What changed?

RiotRiot ThEntropist9 votes

That's me. I was also the one who fought really hard for the Zed nerfs that are in the patch notes.

If you go back and read what I wrote, the reason nerfing Zed's Q is such a big deal is because it hits his waveclear and poke and farming and all ins. With the current change list we are hitting some of those while also maintaining some by giving him more damage if he hits multiple shurikens. So we are not just flat nerfing his q overall, we are buffing it in other places to compensate.

Ryannihilator4 votes

If you were the one who nerfed Zed.... thx so much.

LankPants7 votes

So we are not just flat nerfing his q overall, we are buffing it in other places to compensate.

This feels a lot like favouritism to me and a lot of the community though.

When you nerf other champions you don't give them the same considerations, for example Sej. You nerfed her W % HP damage from 12% to 6% and nerfed her slow when missing an ult from 90% to 30%, no compensation buffs. This isn't just something that you've stopped doing since then either, because you did the exact same to Azir in the last patch.

So why the favouritism towards Zed? Why is he the only champion who gets such careful consideration? Why doesn't he get some "time out of the spotlight"?

Guy Fox Teemo6 votes

I very much doubt the changes will make Azir super weak, as for that "time out of the spotlight comment" is probably one of the dumbest things said by Rioters, if you've read the other comments most don't agree with him.

As for the Zed nerf a direct quote from the play testers on their stream Wednesday was basically "Zed wasn't really strong and really didn't deserve nerfs, the only reason we did was because of all the complaints"

ofart4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ThEntropist,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=dOREccce,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-06-01T21:05:04.826+0000)

That's me. I was also the one who fought really hard for the Zed nerfs that are in the patch notes.

If you go back and read what I wrote, the reason nerfing Zed's Q is such a big deal is because it hits his waveclear and poke and farming and all ins. With the current change list we are hitting some of those while also maintaining some by giving him more damage if he hits multiple shurikens. So we are not just flat nerfing his q overall, we are buffing it in other places to compensate.

Any thoughts on some follow-up help for Ziggs ? I thought this was a cool idea. His W has a really low AP ratio and it makes it hard to make more aggressive Ziggs plays which justify the risk of blowing his only escape (especially with that CD). I think buffing the W ratio even by a large amount wouldn't be such a big impact considering the CD and risk so it would basically just open up more playstyles to him.

SkyblazeHydraX32 votes

You guys considering doing anything to look into Veigar's power and rate of scaling since the mage update?

Votable Jester4 votes

It's not just his scaling that makes him so annoying. It just feels like there's no "right" way to lane against him. If you make it a farm lane, he gets tons of AP from minions. If you try to do short trades to eventually poke him out of lane, he gets AP from hitting you back. If you go all in, you get stuck in his cage and either intentionally get stunned (then hit by his W) or sit in there while their jungler makes his way over.

It just feels like whatever choice you make benefits Veigar in some way. The only way around it is with assassins or super long range champions who can poke without retaliation.

I'm not saying he's op necessarily, just that it feels bad playing against him regardless of the choices you make.

Redaga3 votes

for Veigar all I can do is counter pick with Xerath and Poke the ever lasting **** out of him with the range.

the other option is a competent jungle.

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