Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 2

RiotMeddler·Feb 2, 2018·1 votes·100,461 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Patch 8.4

Number of things going into patch 8.4 below. There'll likely be a bit more to follow too, and as usual some of this stuff might not ship or will likely change.

Runes Changes:

Fleetwork Footwork/Press the Attack - We'll likely be buffing PTA and/or nerfing FF. Recent changes to FF make it too dominant a choice in Precision at this point, still debating though whether that means we should bring PTA up and/or FF down though. Lethal Tempo by contrast needs bigger work (thoughts on that once we're starting on it, not as urgent as other Runes work though).
Resolve non keystones - Likely replacing a rune or two and moving some runes around to make the second slot especially more interesting and appealing.
Precision Stat Bonus - Splitting with other trees like Resolve does (e.g. Precision+Domination = AS and AD).

Item Changes:

Tracker's Knife - Investigating (might not change) whether this is just too dominant a choice at this point, which also leads to excessive vision especially in organized play.
Hunter's Talisman versus Hunter's Machete - Tweaking stats a bit to make Talisman a better choice on champs it should be strong on.
Jungle items generally - Potentially increasing mana regen to open up the jungle more (mana gating keeps quite a few champs from clearing effectively early relative to less mana hungry junglers)
Ancient Coin - Looks too weak, even on champions it fits best on (Janna, Soraka, Rakan). Smallish, simple buffs likely as a result.
Wit's End - Buffing slightly in general and a bit more for melee champs (they'll steal MR faster than ranged).

Edit: AP item changes will also be in 8.4, forgot to include those somehow when writing this originally despite the fact we've been looking at them a lot this week.

Objectives:

We'll be taking a look at Baron Buff and Elder Dragon buff. At present their impact in really long games seems to fall off too much, which means you don't pay enough of a penalty for playing safe and not trying to contest them. That can lead to drawn out, unresolved games without much happening. In Elder Dragon's case it also means the value of contesting early dragons, regardless of element, isn't as high as it should be either.

Champ Nerfs:

Ornn - Looking at what enemies should be able to do to respond to him in lane. Details to be determined.
Gnar - Needs clearer weaknesses enemies can play around, particularly in lane. Details also TBD.
Kalista - We're still working on pulling power out of Kalista for pro play without hitting her hard in regular play.

Champ Buffs:

Evelynn - Previous nerfs were harder than intended. Looking to give a bit of power back in a straightforward way.
Volibear - Fingers crossed will finally get changes in 8.4. We've been testing a range of things in addition to the previously mentioned brief displacement on champs on E. That knockback's still testing well so that's almost certainly happening. Probably a secondary buff as well (e.g. might have Q MS not fall off so aggressively when briefly facing away from enemy champs to move around skillshots or whatever).
Fiddlesticks - Is struggling quite a bit in the jungle. Buffing as a result, not sure exactly how yet.
Talon - Struggling in both mid and top. We'd previously been avoiding giving him power because he was doing well in top lane, he's just weak all round at this point though. Likely fairly straight forward numbers buffs.

Other Champion Changes:

Rengar - Reversion of Q to an on next hit ability will happen in 8.4, along with some smaller changes to other parts of the kit.

Saved Rune Pages

For cases like 8.4 where we're changing non keystone Runes (replacing some or swapping positions of others) we'll be automatically updating saved Rune pages so that they're still valid. First goal is to avoid forcing people to remake entire rune pages when the system has only changed slightly. Sonc goal is to make sure everyone still loads into game with a full set of at least ok Runes even if they haven't yet edited their pages since the changes. We'll be doing some call outs in the game client as well when stuff changes for people who want to update their pages themselves, getting some defaults in as a fallback too though.

Zoe Thoughts on Zoe next week. Was going to get some thoughts on how we see her and what our plans are for this post, would like to take a bit more time to talk through issues and approach with the team first though.

LeBlanc

After Rengar ships in 8.4 we'll be looking at LeBlanc. Current plan is for a similar level of change to Rengar's, likely including some degree of moving back to things about old LeBlanc that worked well (both for LeBlanc players and for game health). Not certain on timing of when that work would ship, goal would be to get it onto PBE fairly quickly and, as with Rengar, work on it for multiple patches while getting feedback on it.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

496 Comments

Rework QuinnFeb 2, 201829 votes

With the trend of champions who received class-level updates being partially reverted (specifically Rengar , KogMaw , Leblanc ) what are your thoughts on similar explorations for Quinn ? Personally, I preferred old Quinn; however, as a staff member of the Quinn Discord server, I know many players would be unhappy with simply a change in that direction.

FafliXFeb 9, 20182 votes

I liked old Quinn, but I love new Quinn. I would not want to see a revert to her old kit :(

SoundChaosDebugFeb 2, 201818 votes

First post, Top lane makes no difference in the game when bottom lane throws while enemy jungler helps.

SpideraxeFeb 2, 201818 votes

Hey Meddler can I ask about the Bruiser keystone also in 8.4

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 201840 votes

The new keystone we're working on (which should be a good choice on a lot of fighters, but isn't a fighter specific keystone) won't be ready for 8.4 unfortunately. We'd hoped it would, but it hasn't been working as hoped. Aiming for 8.6 as a result, hopefully PBEing during the 8.5 cycle to get additional feedback.

World EnderFeb 2, 201818 votes

Why can't you just put it on PBE on 8.4 and continue iterating, while also combining feedback from players?

The mentality of "we don't want to put something on PBE until it's completely ready" doesn't work at this point, it's been 3 months since runes came out and we keep getting the excuse that "oh it isn't ready yet so we won't even talk specifics about it" which is extremely frustrating. Runes came out in November, and we'll be getting our keystone in March? Still 1 month from now?

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 201828 votes

Once we've got a direction we've got confidence in putting stuff on the PBE can be pretty helpful sometimes to get feedback and work through the rest of the implementation. Things like going back to an on next hit for Rengar Q (even if we still need to figure out exact details for the ult) or a keystone that lets you channel out of combat for movement speed via a boots active (even if weren't sure about things like use during stealth, refund model, whether it should do damage etc).

Putting things on the PBE when they're still more likely to be cancelled or completely changed within a few days by contrast builds up a lot of expectations it's more likely than not will never get delivered on. It also adds a lot of discussion cost to making changes. Spending a couple of hours giving context on what we're trying to do, reading feedback, answer questions etc that would be enough time to instead test the current version and start implementing the next one.

InTheoryFeb 2, 20189 votes

We'd hoped it would, but it hasn't been working as hoped.

Why is that being downvoted?

CarnicoreFeb 2, 201814 votes

Two or more people are downvoting everything.

XenohazFeb 2, 20182 votes

Just wanted to clarify, is it going to be replacing one of the existing keystones, or just a new addition?

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 201817 votes

New.

RenanReinFeb 2, 201817 votes

Hey Meddler, about the bonuses stats on runes: I think that giving the players the option to choose the status freely could fix some problems. Right now we have only 3 types : HP, AS and Adaptative Force, so, its not so hard to allow us to choose betwenn 1 or split 2. If you guys allowing the players to choose freely, you could solve some of the bruisers problems, and open more options to the players, because this status bonuses are restricting a lot of playstyles, and we can agreed that this were not the goal with the new runes. For example, when Resolve only had the HP as bonus status, I was taking Precision secondary on Poppy to scale even more tenacity (with the legend rune) and Last Stand to combo with my W passive (more resists and damage on low hp ;D), but with the new Resolve bonuses, I can't take this combination anymore because AS is not the best status for Poppy. If we could choose the bonuses status for freely, Renekton could take Press the Attack and have AD as runes bonuses, Ekko also could take Press the Attack to combo with his passive, Vayne could take phase rush and AS as bonus and be a relentless hunter, etc.

EreldraFeb 2, 201810 votes

Can you give us some specifics about the changes to AP-Items? How big are the changes, is there maybe a new item/changes Passives or is it just tweaking numbers (AP, Gold Cost etc.)

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 201822 votes

We should have a big context post on them early next week. What we're currently testing (could still change) is meaningful modifications to around half a dozen items (different effects and/or build paths), probably completely one new item, number tweaks to another half a dozen or so. Something around that ballpark anyway should be what hits PBE on Tuesday.

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 2, 20181 votes

Is the new item Spooky Ghosts or is it Spooky Ghosts and a new item?

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 201816 votes

Oh, yeah, I was thinking a completely new item (likely, not guaranteed) when I wrote that. Likely Spooky Ghosts makes a return in some form in 8.4, or at least hits PBE for testing with the other AP stuff too.

ErablierFeb 2, 20182 votes

Is Spooky Ghosts going back to Twin Shadows?

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 201811 votes

That's the name we're using at present, might not be the final one though.

BadPiriPiriFeb 2, 201810 votes

Is Caitlyn still going to be buffed?

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 201813 votes

Let me check on that one. Didn't happen for 8.3 at least, not sure if conclusion was we shouldn't or that we didn't land on anything for 8.3.

Edit: We pulled back on buffing her in 8.3 because we wanted to give it a bit of time to see how Relic Shield changes especially impacted her. Caitlyn struggles when lanes are higher sustain/safe (can't bully effectively enough to justify her other weaknesses). Will take another look at her shortly, see if that didn't matter enough or if she's able to succeed again in a bot lane where more damage sticks.

BadPiriPiriFeb 2, 20189 votes

I would like to buff her base attack speed a bit. I follow "Caitlyn Mains" on reddit and a lot of them have that opinion too. Thank you for answering!

SCi am IFeb 2, 20189 votes

MonkeyKing 's passive does not seem to add to his play style or kit. Is there anything being done/looked at around that atm?

AltariousFeb 2, 20187 votes

Hi Meddler, wanted to know if the changes currently live on the pbe to lucian will go to live servers with patch 8.3? since not even in surrenderat20 the changes seem to be listed.

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 20189 votes

They should be in 8.3, yeah. Odd that S@20 doesn't have them, probably means the way they're implemented makes them hard to data mine as easily (passives are sometimes done in weirder ways than other abilities).

Blossom CrownFeb 2, 20187 votes

Hi Meddler, any thoughts on Syndra’s performance? Even with the bug fixes, she doesn’t seem to be in a good spot.

kennonFeb 2, 20186 votes

If you're going to be nerfing other aspects of Ornn is there any chance that the unstoppable on W will come back?

Gnart Even CloseFeb 2, 20184 votes

Gnar - Needs clearer weaknesses enemies can play around, particularly in lane. Details also TBD.

Anything you can say about likely direction? I.e. are we talking nerfs to Q CD, hitting base stats, something else?

If you're still exploring, would you consider hitting the Q CD refund (change to something like 30/40/50/60% from 45/50/55/60%)? I see a lot of complaints about his Q, and all of my fellow Gnar mains that I've talked to think that would be a good change to start.

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 20186 votes

Not sure yet, though Q and mini Gnar AA power are the things that have come up in discussion the most so far.

Gnart Even CloseFeb 2, 20182 votes

Thank you for answering! Would AA power be hit through nerfs to something like base AD? Is Aery being brought up in discussion at all either?

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 20186 votes

Early AA range is one we'll look at at least, given at present he's often able to farm/harass just slightly out of threat range of a number of abilities which makes him pretty safe.

Not currently looking at Aery.

XIII VanitasFeb 2, 20184 votes

Are the bonus stats going to be split between the two trees only when Precision is the primary one or also when it's the secondary one?

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 20187 votes

Both. 50/50 with Precision primary/Resolve Primary, 70/30 if Sorcery or Domination Primary.

J EevoFeb 2, 20184 votes

Any plans for compensation for Kassadin after the minion aggro vs targeted spells changes? He fell down to 47% from that one change and he didn't get anything, arguably didn't need the nerf.

Zepherys137Feb 3, 20184 votes

What about Kassadin? He is feeling too weak after the agro changes in 8.2...:/ His late game is the same, but the laning phase is nightmare, literally nightmare to play, even if you know the match up, and how to use your champion's full potential.

beanyFeb 2, 20183 votes

Hey meddler, regarding precision stats being split, won't it make taking precision as a splash unattractive for many champs? I feel as though the coup de grace and triumph nerfs might not need to have happened if people determined they wanted more ad/ap over taking those two runes.

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 201810 votes

It will make Precision secondary less attractive to some, yeah. We'll probably be going with a 70% AP or AD/30% attack speed split for Precision secondary from Domination/Sorcery as a result, reduce that exclusion somewhat. At some point we should also look at stats from Rune trees in general, particularly whether the current tree based system is doing more harm or more good. That's a larger task, and other Runes work (keystones generally) is higher priority right now though, hence this split change which we believe is better, even if it doesn't fix everything.

RenanReinFeb 2, 201812 votes

Meddler, don't you thing the problem with PTA is the fact that this Rune increase the damage of your allies? This is something very support oriended and maybe remove this could allow a nice buff to it.

ModJango MageFeb 2, 20183 votes

How did the testing go with enabling removed summoner spells for unsealed spellbook?

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 20188 votes

Concept looks solid, expect we'll add at least one or two back in, along with some changes to Unsealed Spellbook so it's less about just getting CDR for the spells you're already using. Some form of giving lower CDs on the stuff you're swapping to or something like that.

iahim98Feb 2, 20188 votes

As a QoL can you let us swap summoners around for free when we have spellbook? As of how spellbook works we need to swap whatever is off CD and that usually leaves us with summoners in the wrong order. The only work around right now is to either wait for the shards and use them to correct it or rebind the summoners around which both feel pretty bad.

KorboKuinFeb 2, 20183 votes

So is top lane gonna be playable before the end of the season or shall I come back in 2019

AirKingNeoFeb 2, 20183 votes

Fleetwork Footwork/Press the Attack

Any plans to make any precision keystone viable on melee? Might as well take the chance to do it while you're changing these.

Precision Stat Bonus - Splitting with other trees like Resolve does (e.g. Precision+Domination = AS and AD).

What if you're a champion who would prefer pure AS like Varus, Kayle, or Azir? Sure Varus can use the AD well, but the minor AP is shit compared to AS for Kayle and Azir.

Hunter's Talisman versus Hunter's Machete - Tweaking stats a bit to make Talisman a better choice on champs it should be strong on.

Jungle items generally - Potentially increasing mana regen to open up the jungle more (mana gating keeps quite a few champs from clearing effectively early relative to less mana hungry junglers)

Obviously, only the mana regen on Tailsman and none of the upgrades, or else Nidalee abusing Grail gets a lot better.

While talking about the jungle, I think Runic Echoes is shit and I don't think Nidalee and Elise should be broken to compensate. Warrior gives 60 AD; that's a good amount of AD for an item. Runic Echoes gives 60 AP (and has a poor build path); that's a terrible amount of AP. That's why the only viable AP junglers are high base damage like Nidalee and Elise, and that's why Ekko jungle won't be viable.

Solution? Runic Echoes to 80 AP, and nerf Elise and Nidalee to compensate. Side note: Kayle's E is still bugged and the AOE damage doesn't apply Tailsman's burn-heal effect.

pseudo dionysiusFeb 3, 20183 votes

Please tell me you have some changes for Abyssal mask. Veigar and cassio shouldn't be able to run that item without consequence.

DCYOUNG888Feb 2, 20182 votes

Asked this on Wednesday’s post earlier but will Thresh get a buff for the relic shield nerf?

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 20186 votes

No plans at the moment at least, doesn't seem to have had too noticeable an effect on his performance so far.

YadidFeb 2, 20182 votes

Hey Meddler! Sounds a little bland, but wouldn't making the Elder/Baron buffs scale over time make them more incentive to contest? Like the Baron buff @ 20 min is 75% as strong as the baron buff @ 40 min?

RiotMeddlerFeb 2, 20187 votes

That's one of the things we'll be trying. Baron does currently scale, but only from minutes 20 to 27, after which it's constant. We're trying having it scale until minute 50 at present, with some adjustment to values as well (might not give equal AD and AP for example, given AD is the more valuable stat per point).

DeathProfessorFeb 2, 20184 votes

{quoted}

That's one of the things we'll be trying. Baron does currently scale, but only from minutes 20 to 27, after which it's constant. We're trying having it scale until minute 50 at present, with some adjustment to values as well (might not give equal AD and AP for example, given AD is the more valuable stat per point).

Is there any possibility of getting Master Yi's highlander nerfs reverted? Along with E being linked with total damage instead of Bonus AD? Why you guys want to kill on-hit Yi so hard. His power has been diminishing for two years.