Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 22

RiotMeddler·Aug 22, 2017·1 votes·67,069 views

Morning all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Upcoming Runes Reveals

We've been looking at some non damage focused Runes recently after seeing feedback that people wanted more visibility into utility/defensive options, with things like Don't Blink, Guardian Soul and Perfect Timing. Another post looking at a couple more utility keystones from the Inspiration tree this week as a result. We haven't yet locked down what we'll be looking at after that though. Suggestions would be much appreciated.

Malphite

We've been testing some Malphite changes that have shown quite a bit of promise, in particular giving him a stronger edge against physical damage comps, really playing up his W as a physical damage counter. Haven't yet found the right set of other changes to pair with those buffs though, so we'll be pushing that work into 7.19 instead. Malphite's performing ok already, so don't want to overbuff him, but also want to ensure we're not accidentally hitting him harder than intended.

Pre-Season and Game Balance

Pre-season's coming up soonish and we figured it might be good to talk about game balance during it a bit. Short version is we're expect pre-season to be pretty messy for a little bit. All pre-seasons are a bit chaotic, since there's a lot changing, and this pre-season's likely to be the biggest yet, given the new Runes system will impact both champion and item balance more than any of our previous individual patches.

We're putting a lot of time into compensating for that already of course. Internal testing gives us only a small fraction of the number of games a live release does though, so we'll get a lot more understanding of what needs work once pre-season goes out. We'll be working to get anything that's out of line back into a good spot as quickly as possible, whether that's individual Runes that are too strong or too weak, champions that aren't getting the right mix of whatever it is. We'll likely do a moderate amount of that through micro patches too, jump on things that clearly need significant changes quicker rather than waiting for the next standard patch.

Ryze Tweaks

We’ll be taking a look at some Ryze stuff soon, with the goal of reducing his difference in power between regular play and organized teams (if he’s balanced to be appropriately strong for regular matchmade games he’s nuts in pro play especially). Approach there’s likely to be similar to the Shen work we did earlier in the year, so moving power around to change strengths and weaknesses rather than changing ability functionality much. Ryze has long been a problem child of course, so not expecting he’ll necessarily be solved after this work, or that we’ll necessarily hit on things worth shipping immediately, figured it was worth mentioning though, both for visibility’s sake and to see whether any of you folks have particularly strong ideas we should be considering in addition to the things we’re already looking at (wave clear, ability to farm, ult coordination requirements etc).

377 Comments

AdalvarAug 22, 201719 votes

have you guys considered reworking item 3070 into a starter value item that gains stacks from minion kills like item 1083 currently works?

The issue with item 3070 currently is that picking it up on the first buy back against someone who picks it up a combat stat item ( item 3802 item 1038 item 3134 ) leaves you a sitting duck and not only that it screws up you item pathing and delays key item breakpoints.

By remaking item 3070 into a minion stacking starter value item (that can then be built into it's current upgrades) you will still have that weak early lane, but you won't be left as open prey for any early game bully.

Thoughts?

FoxinoAug 22, 20171 votes

You need early game bullies to counter late game scaling. Tear is considered a greedy route because of its late game power, basically, if you want to be greedy then prepare for a rougher time in lane. Delaying your item breakpoints is the trade off that balances tear, without the harsh trade off tear would be too desirable of an item harming item diversity.

AdalvarAug 22, 20176 votes

And how has that worked out? No one picks up Tear anymore, unless you are playing Cass or Ryze. We're in a meta where lategame champs have cropped up in every lane even down to Kog'Maw himself and Tear items are still nowhere to be seen. That says more to me about how the item is currently built. Used to be if you we're playing for lategame you'd have a ROA or a Archangel's to go into. Both items took heavy hits with the mage update and have barely been used since.

Item diversity? You mean item 3165 or... right?

Veiled NightmareAug 22, 20173 votes

I think it'd be cool to have it build out of a 350-450g item that maybe just has the mana return passive, but gives no flat mana. Used purely for stacking and mana sustain in greedy situations where you feel you can go without the health and combat stats from blade/ring.

Slyx the RatAug 22, 201714 votes

Hey Meddler,

Twitch Twitch has a petty high banrate at the moment. This is really frustrating for people who actually main him and enjoy this champion. Is there really nothing planned for him even he is out of the line since several months????

PowerOfDrainAgeAug 22, 20171 votes

Even though twitch is kinda strong at any stage of the game, bcz of his E base dmg, what makes him out of line is ardent censer supports.

They rly shouldnt touch his E dmg lategame but they should definately check his E dmg early in the game at least. As a compensation, they can finally reduce his mana costs a bit. (what made him so strong was his ability to waveclear and trade in lane whenever he wanted, thanks his previously low mana cost on W. Now ardent supports keep him insanely strong.)

Slyx the RatAug 22, 20176 votes

I wasnt planning to do a long post. I do know that its not his kit what makes him so strong. Items (Runaans hurricane) Masterys (Fervor) and other ad's beeing too weak are the main reasony why he is so strong right now. His dmg numbers of his kit haven't changed since ages. I know that. And I do know that his E in early is absolutely fine! And no he isnt strong in EVERY stage of the game. His early game is absolutely fine, balanced, and punishable!

I one trick Twitch with passion since ages

The Last BalladAug 22, 20172 votes

How can you consider him not "strong in ANY stage of the game"?

He is one of the hyper carries, and there is no room in this game for someone who doesn't have strength in any stage.

JMoormannAug 22, 20174 votes

I assume he meant every, not any

RiotMeddlerAug 22, 20179 votes

He's strong, and gets talked about pretty regularly at present. We don't have any immediate plans for him though. Some of that's that current meta state (Ardent, teams who protect him etc) is pretty favorable to him. Some of it's also that pre-season's coming up and that'll shake a lot of balance up regardless, so assessing cases like him makes more sense after that if they're in ok positions and that allows us to put more time into landing pre-season well.

La BelloAug 22, 20176 votes

Consider replacing the flat 40AD on his ultimate with another effect.

something like "X% of current HP in magic damage per bolt" might help. Could also try moving more power to his passive lategame. Maybe add a small Bonus AD ratio to passive and repealing some of the raw AS Ambush gives.

remove some of that lategame AOE Crit power

XPtokenAug 22, 20172 votes

"Pls Rito buff my already broken champion"

La BelloAug 22, 20173 votes

Twitch has the same thing that Vayne has.

40 extra AD feeds into Infinity Edge crits giving maksmen higher than normal crits in the lategame. What makes Twitch Redonkulous is his synergy with Runaans which helps him cash in on those BIG KRITS.

Moving him away from this is probably the right idea

SpideraxeAug 22, 201712 votes

Glad you guys are looking into Ryze again, I want to unironically ask if this essentially means another Ryze rework

RiotMeddlerAug 22, 20177 votes

Not currently planning a rework, more a heavy balance pass like those Shen changes earlier in the year.

fishýAug 22, 201712 votes

Can you tell us anything about Evelynn? really excited for her rework

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 22, 201723 votes

{quoted} As usual I'll leave reveal details of new champs to the champion team, don't want to undercut any of their plans.

RiotMeddlerAug 22, 201716 votes

Yep (and thanks).

ZerenzaAug 22, 20173 votes

Yep, the only thing i was able to get out of meddler is that she's likely to be released after worlds.

Meddler is the ultimate spy, he never reveals secrets.

RiotMeddlerAug 22, 20179 votes

After the Worlds patch (7.18), not necessarily after all of Worlds the tournament though :).

WoonStruckAug 22, 20179 votes

Also, Ryze suggestion:

#Zhonya's is self-CC. Ryze ult should be canceled by it.

TormentulaAug 22, 20172 votes

OR not, I'm fine with it. I don't see why we even need to do it to ryze when he has almost 0 power budget in his ult.

WoonStruckAug 22, 201712 votes

Rumble's Q is not a channel. Its the same deal as Fiddle, Morg, Karthus, and Kennen's AoEs.

TormentulaAug 22, 20172 votes

Neither is ryze's ult.

VlädïmïrAug 22, 201712 votes

Ryze's ult is a unique channel.

It gets canceled by CC like any other, but he can still do actions during it.

warpenguin555Aug 22, 20178 votes

Thoughts on how certain people seem to be abusing the voting system to make you see only certain comments?

LordRedStone Nr1Aug 22, 20173 votes

lmao I just thought about that... I joined a little later and every comment in a discussion had one or two dislikes... Nothing they can do about it though, people just need to learn and/or get banned from the boards

HalcyonDwellerAug 22, 20176 votes

The boards needs to separate upvotes and downvotes. That way you can see how many upvotes and downvotes separately a comment has. Comments that receive a lot of upvotes should be considered 'Hot' regardless of how many downvotes they get.

That or require comments to vote. That way nobody can be a 'downvote fairy' and they would have to out themselves as the person who 'killed' another person's idea. If they have legitimate reasons for downvoting then they have nothing to fear about having to comment, they can simply explain their reasons and it won't be considered vote manipulation or trolling.

EDITED: changed to better clarify my second suggestion - Added to second paragraph.

RiotMeddlerAug 22, 201719 votes

I think it's a pretty selfish thing to do and is also indicative of issues with how Boards are set up. When reading through these threads I'm clicking Show More constantly though and getting through to the end of the replies at least once though, so hopefully I'm not missing too much. Imagine it still suppresses good conversation though.

Rovert duBelmontAug 22, 20177 votes

After showing off more defensive runes, what if the next set of reveals focuses on early-game vs. late game rune setups? The new system seems poised to really double down on the early/late game strategies that players have.

If there's mid game stuff, maybe that too. :P

RiotMeddlerAug 22, 20177 votes

Hmm, power versus game time's a good question. I'll check with the team about that, see if we've got enough runes ready that we haven't already shown to look at that axis.

Moonboy65Aug 22, 20177 votes

Meddler, do you have any news on the ability icon updates?

RiotMeddlerAug 22, 20177 votes

They've been pushed back significantly by the artist we had looking at them getting reassigned to other higher priority work. That's one of those cases unfortunately where sometimes talking about something when it's not yet finished leads to some failure to deliver for a while :(

Sw4deAug 22, 20176 votes

https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/BewitchedCautiousBanteng

http://imgur.com/ceuG1Od

Is riot ok with a jungler 3 levels behind, 2300gold behind, face tanking q, 2 e's 2 passive procs, and half a second of my ultimate, and still 100-0ing me easily?

Combat smites were introduced during a time where junglers were both xp and gold starved, thats not true anymore, this is low level game, where the jungler hasn't farmed or pathed efficiently, and is still winning 1v1's against a mega fed midlaner really easily, that doesnt seem healthy for the game when a role with the highest map impact by far is also the strongest 1v1 role in the game.

ProfDrDeathAug 22, 201753 votes

Why are you fighting a melee-focused bruiser directly as an opportunistic, set-up based assassin? That's just asking for it...

Sw4deAug 22, 20174 votes

mass upvote the hard stuck silver player for 4 years, he really understands how this game is supposed to be played, i mean a fed midlane assassin has never been able to fight a bruiser who is 2.3k gold and 3 levels behind before, that can't be right, thanks for enlightening me.

DeadUnbornAug 22, 201712 votes

xin zao did cancel kat's ult. otherwise she would had won.

Teemo MidAug 22, 201736 votes

You've made multiple mistakes in this matchup.

You fought Xin Zhao - god of point and click catching slippery assassins.
You barely did any damage with your ult, it got cancelled by Xin's Q. Why didn't you at least wait for him to use the third hit(while picking up daggers and blinking around more), then use your ultimate? That was just poorly played and Xin did exactly what he needed to do to win - knock you out of your ultimate.

AFilthyCaitMainAug 22, 20176 votes

Hey Meddler, What is your stance/thoughts on Caitlyn at this moment? It seems like shes kinda lost everything really. Base stats, Scalings, etc.

ZallamanceAug 22, 20175 votes

Now that Swain is being reworked, being more oriented on the unique play style he has, his title of master tactician has become available. Do you guys see yourselves ever making a champ who's game play feels like that of a tactician? Ie: careful and pre-mitigated planning, clever predictions in order to be successful?

RiotMeddlerAug 22, 201714 votes

It's possible, though literal tactician at least is a pretty hard thing to pull off in a team game where everyone's already making tactical and strategic calls, especially since elements that support that sort of player tend to be very poorly appreciated (e.g. vision effects).

A careful/clever champ, who's focused on creating and capitalizing on situations could certainly work and I think Ekko's W is a fairly good example of how that by contrast can work in LoL. Need to ensure though that there's still interaction for the enemy and it's not all decided by how well the planning player sets things up (e.g. walking into a nest of old school Shaco boxes).

Illâoi Evê SiônAug 22, 20174 votes

Could we get a Magic Resistance & Cooldown Reduction component item for Abyssal Mask and Adaptive Helm, please?

RiotMeddlerAug 22, 20177 votes

What's the thinking on why such an item's needed? If anything I'd be more concerned about MR itemization potentially being too powerful, or CDR too broadly found. Can see the desire to be able to buy it in game on some champs, but I'm missing a clear argument for why it'd be good for the item system overall.

LostFr0stAug 22, 20179 votes

I can see the point on the cdr part, not necessarily the MR bit (because negatron rush was a thing).

It's strange that item 3065 has a cdr component but item 3001 and item 3194 don't. It feels really bad while building either of the latter two due to that. I expect them to have a item 3067 or something due to the final item having 10%. (unless that's intended so people can't pivot their build? I don't see why otherwise.)

EternalFrostFireAug 22, 20174 votes

{quoted}

What's the thinking on why such an item's needed? If anything I'd be more concerned about MR itemization potentially being too powerful, or CDR too broadly found. Can see the desire to be able to buy it in game on some champs, but I'm missing a clear argument for why it'd be good for the item system overall.

I don't think the cdr on such component is necessary, but I would love to see banshee's building out of a negatron cloak instead of just a null magic mantle. Only getting a null magic mantle does not feel very useful. As a result, many people choose to get a codex over a mantle even when they are losing in an AP matchup very hard because it simply does not provide as well.

LostFr0stAug 22, 20174 votes

They won't let item 3102 build out of item 1057 due to the problems associated with a "rush " mid meta.

We had one of those last year; the meta was literally an arms race on who could rush item 1057 into abyssal scepter first.

SteelMankindAug 22, 20173 votes

On Ryze and reducing power difference between pro and regular play:

Perhaps he could lose his rank 2 ult (as in, ult can only be leveled once). Doing this cuts out what made him really strong in pro play and opens up room to buff other things like base mana for an easier lane phase.

The extra skill point could be used on Q an additional time.

King of DemonsAug 22, 20177 votes

They would have to buff his Rank 1 ult then or give it a level scaling or something.. the rank 1 ult is so bad, many Ryze players skip it until level 10