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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 1

RiotMeddler··1 votes·43,116 views

Morning all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Tweaking Champion Voices

We get a lot of good feedback on ways to tweak and improve champions in terms of how their abilities work, loading screen art, visual effects in game, ability audio etc. Generally we can act on that feedback, especially in cases where it's a small change that's quick to do and a clear. Champion voices (VO) are usually an exception to that unfortunately and I figured it would be useful to talk about that a bit.

With almost every other part of the game we can adjust stuff pretty easily ourselves and in multiple languages. Visual effects artists who work at Riot can adjust spell effects, writers can change champion bios, designers can tweak balance etc. With VO however it's not that simple a process unfortunately, since we're using voice actors who don't work here and have other commitments. That means it's comparatively difficult to something as simple sounding as one new line. We need to find a time that works for the actors in question and then get them into a recording studio. That's made much more difficult because there are a lot of voice actors per champion since there's usually a separate one for each language the game's in. Sometimes it's still practical to add or adjust one off lines (e.g. if we're recording a number of extra lines already for a champion release trailer or something similar it's easy to add a bit more in too). Generally though it's not doable, even if the idea's really cool, which can really suck when somebody suggests a fantastic idea.


Possible change to how we do gameplay patches next year

Something we've been talking about recently is whether to try a slightly different approach for a while early next to year to how we release gameplay patches. At present most patches are very similar to each other. We've been considering trying an alternating large gameplay patch/small gameplay patch cycle however. The small patches would only contain balance changes that are for things in dire need of a change (e.g. very strong or very weak champions), or extremely simple changes that aren't too disruptive and don't need as much testing (e.g. base stat tweaks). The large patches by contrast would then contain larger balance changes, mini updates, item changes, Runes adjustments etc. Total amount of change over time would likely be fairly similar, though more concentrated. One of the biggest possible benefits there is that that would allow us to spend more time on longer term fixes for things, and less on short term adjustments that don't always fix fundamental problems. One of the biggest downsides is some things would potentially get addressed slower than they currently do. Curious as to people's thoughts on such an approach?


Xin Zhao update probably in 7.19

As per the title there it's likely the XZ update ships in patch 7.19. For anyone unfamiliar with context on it it's a smaller update, so will involve tweaks to some of his skills and stats while keeping most of his kit very similar to its current functionality. A few spell/character animation updates, but in terms of art and audio generally very similar to (small gameplay update, not full VGU).


Azir update almost certainly in 7.19

Azir's changes have continued to test well so we're pretty confident they'll be in 7.19. They don't involve replacing any of his abilities, so sit somewhere between a really heavy balance/tuning pass and a small update. As previously mentioned a lot of the focus to the update is reducing his ranges to create better counterplay and more risk taking, then putting power elsewhere. We've read through a fair bit of feedback from some people who feel that's the less thematic fit for an emperor, and understand where that's coming from, but feel that leaving his range as is and instead removing mobility both fails to fix needed issues and leads to a flatter playstyle, hence this direciton.


Le Blanc update's quite a while away

Not too much new to say here, mentioning it though since it's a topic that seems to get raised constantly and figure it's better to talk about it visibly here rather than less visibly in the replies every single time. Le Blanc's update hasn't hit a good point yet, so it's going to be quite a while before it's out - she's got a lot of problems that need to be solved, with the core being desire to do assassin things without taking assassin risks. Extremely unlikely it'll be before pre-season (November) at an absolute minimum, more likely sometime next year. We don't have any current plans for balance changes to her between now and whenever the update comes out, though if circumstances change (e.g. if new Runes make her dramatically weaker or stronger) we'd reassess that of course.

213 Comments

EROTIC RAID BOSS15 votes

Hey Meddler, what do you think about doing a VO pass on how taunts are used? right now a lot of 'lore' taunts never get heard in game because you just don't usually use taunts in the heat of battle. But newer champions and skins have lines play automatically when attacking other champions, or killing them, or even just spawning in game vs each other or walking into lane near each other (ie dawnbringer riven and nightbringer yasuo, Camille)

just as an example, currently these are some Azir lines

"You are but a grain of sand, Xerath." "Emperors have no rivals, Xerath. Only liabilities." "Xerath, it is time your spark went out." "You have already failed, Xerath. You must now accept it." "Traitor, I cast you to the winds." "You are but my shadow, Xerath." "Xerath, the time of your judgment has come."

and these are some Xerath lines

"Azir, at long last, we will see what power you truly possess." "You are emperor of a wasteland, Azir." "Azir, the boy destined to chase the sun." "This time, Azir, I will need no surprise to topple you."

But these are only activated by using the taunt key so close to the other champion that they're probably like, too close to each other for their usual long range combat lol.

Imagine if it was more like, spawning in game vs each other, and hearing each others lines

"Xerath, the time of your judgment has come." "This time, Azir, I will need no surprise to topple you."

meeting in lane

"Xerath, it is time your spark went out." "This time, Azir, I will need no surprise to topple you."

Azir kills Xerath

"Traitor, I cast you to the winds."

Azir damages Xerath

"Emperors have no rivals, Xerath. Only liabilities." "You are but my shadow, Xerath."

Xerath damages Azir

"You are emperor of a wasteland, Azir."

Xerath kills Azir

play a laugh line

or whatever. I picked these 2 because I think they're a good example of how much more epic these voice lines could be just by adjusting how they activate, but it applies to any champion that was made before Camille but has a healthy amount of taunts for different characters. you can also apply general taunts to kills/fighting.

edit: I also enjoy the new voice overs for lux and maokai and I think we'd get more mileage out of them with an approach like above... and if you happen to be bringing in voice actors for legendary skins or something like you did with lux it might not be a bad time to look at the classic vo. basically I hope you don't discontinue them completely.

RiotMeddler13 votes

We've been moving away from putting so many VO lines on taunts for precisely the reasons you outline there, doing things like on kill lines with Kled instead. When audio designer bandwidth permits we'll go and move some of those older lines hooked up to taunts to automatic triggers.

We'll certainly keep an eye out for chances to get work done when bringing voice actors back in for other stuff anyway.

Master Yi Bot10 votes

Hi Meddler, when is the last time you had a look at MasterYi ?

Can we expect some small buffs to item 1419 or MasterYi in general?

I'm having a very difficult time for the first time in 4 seasons to win with MasterYi

I'm useless before finishing bloodrazor, if i get invaded pre level 6 my clear early become very difficult too. Cooldown on abilities are extremely high, especially with the Highlander nerfs, low duration and get outrun easily from most of the champions.

Pretty sure you know about this, any plan for buffs soon?

Never FF Boy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Master Yi Bot,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=ZAdYKnhP,comment-id=0025,timestamp=2017-09-01T17:38:31.424+0000)

Hi Meddler, when is the last time you had a look at MasterYi ?

Can we expect some small buffs to item 1419 or MasterYi in general?

I'm having a very difficult time for the first time in 4 seasons to win with MasterYi

I'm useless before finishing bloodrazor, if i get invaded pre level 6 my clear early become very difficult too. Cooldown on abilities are extremely high, especially with the Highlander nerfs, low duration and get outrun easily from most of the champions.

Pretty sure you know about this, any plan for buffs soon?

He's one of the worst jungler in the game right now. If not the worst.

Raid Boss Udyr6 votes

Udyr Begs to differ.

Linna Excel9 votes

Meddler, how do you guys feel about Ahri? Her winrate is dropping a bit lately. Is she in a good spot?

Have you guys tried using something like Vocaloid for Voice Overs? If you could get the sound library down pat, you'd never have to hire an actor for that particular character again.

As for the gameplay patch system, why not just work on larger issues until they are done? I guess that's a vote for a change over.

RiotMeddler16 votes

Ahri seems fine, even if she's not as strong as she's sometimes been in the past.

I'm no expert on the VO side of things, I think it's very likely that something like Vocaloid wouldn't get us the results we're after though, in terms of exact delivery and style of voice acting.

Working on larger issues means less time put into solving urgent (or could be described as urgent) problems quickly, which is one of the biggest trade offs we're looking at here.

Xayane1 votes

{quoted}

Ahri seems fine, even if she's not as strong as she's sometimes been in the past.

I'm no expert on the VO side of things, I think it's very likely that something like Vocaloid wouldn't get us the results we're after though, in terms of exact delivery and style of voice acting.

Working on larger issues means less time put into solving urgent (or could be described as urgent) problems quickly, which is one of the biggest trade offs we're looking at here.

Ahri went from something like 53-54% WR in plat-dia solo queue, to 49%. Losing arround 5% seems " fine " for you ? As a champion designed to be strong in solo queue ? Meh. Ahri is very behind meta picks. You attempted changes to shake the midlane meta, and give Ahri some indirect buff through this, but we have to say that it was a huge fail. Syndra/Orianna/Cassio are and will still be better, despite nerfs.

Pretty fun to see that Ahri got a huge nerf while being almost not played in competitive ( most of the time vs Orianna to counter her, even if Orianna clapped most of Ahris on lane ), and those champions, picked or banned pretty much every game, receive very small nerfs, never got their ratios hit, or with compensation. Ahri just got a raw nerf, making her useless if she doesn't land her charm. This does not feel fair, like not at all. Ahri will NOT see any play at worlds if she stays like this, and you know it. When you see pros not picking Ahri vs Orianna + Jarvan, prefering to pick SYNDRA, I mean, that should be enough to see there's a problem with the champion. Putting more power into the charm which is dodgeable, flashable, cleansed, qss'd, banshee'd, tanked by a front liner ... has hurt her so hard.

Hopefuly you'll realize that you were wrong, and give Ahri more tools outside of her charm, even if you have to cut her mobility, Ahri needs changes. But hey if you're fine seeing Syndra Orianna Cassio Lucian Corki just farming and waiting, every single worlds game, paired with tanks everywhere, that's your choice I guess. Hype.

Zero Skill Tank6 votes

A champion having 54% winrate is much more concerning than 49%.

Hungry Cancer4 votes

LOLZ Ahri is perfectly fine man, winrate's aren't so important that 49% means she's terrible or anything; she's still a solid A-tier mid laner, and while you obviously seem to think that she deserves to be an S-tier because you play her, its just not possible for every mage to be in the S-tier, and trying to force it with raw stat buffs would be really bad for the game's health, especially just before Worlds.

TNing of Pine9 votes

Not sure if this is in your domain or not - I sort of get the feeling it's not quite in anyone's domain so it languishes ignored - but are there any plans to work on the bots used in Coop vs AI games? Quite apart from the glaring bugs that come when bots don't know their champ's been reworked (like Ryze who thinks his ult does something completely different and therefore it's a good idea to ult straight into an enemy tower), it'd be really nice if it AI games gave some kind of realistic preparation for PvP. Bots that knew how to work as a team, play the jungle role, gank, contest objectives, use vision, etc, would make it a lot easier for newcomers to learn the game properly, and it'd also be nice for more advanced players who want to play a game that's lower-stress than PvP without being a completely mindless guaranteed 20 minute stomp for the human team.

RiotMeddler5 votes

It's not something we've got current plans for, though I'd agree it's worth talking about at least at some point. Issue we've run into in the past when considering more work on bots has been that that time's felt more valuable put into other features (e.g. building modes like Dark Star, or Blood Moon).

TNing of Pine7 votes

For current players it makes sense that bots are a low priority, but it seems to me that the long term health of the game's ecosystem - and business! - depends on bringing new players in, and new players will be playing against bots. That seems like a pretty good reason to make sure the experience doesn't keep deteriorating the way it is now...

CyberBalt8 votes

One of the biggest possible benefits there is that that would allow us to spend more time on longer term fixes for things

If that's the case, then I would completely support this. I assume by long term fixes, you mean stuff like making juggernauts/bruisers viable in ALL elos, or increasing an ADCs feeling of control (as in, not getting constantly 4 man ganked) while also making them no longer the only class to be played bot lane. If that's not really the type of long-term fixes you meant, I would love to hear some clarification.

Also, thank you for making these posts.

RiotMeddler7 votes

That sort of stuff yeah.

SecondComing5 votes

Hello good sir @Meddler

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on some champs

  1. Quinn ADC is currently her worst role (many people say that, among them Challenger players) and to no surprise. E works well if you're an assassin but not that well for an adc who wants to stay safe and use basic attacks(it works that way if you use it at melee range which you shouldn't be in the first place). Same with ult (mobility is nice but the other parts not that much; at least made more sense when it functioned like an execute). Don't you think this translates to design and/or update (during the marksman update) failure? Not bashing, just expressing. Wouldn't she need work (big or smaller) at some point to cement whether she should be classified as adc or not?

  2. Malphite Would you say he could use a VGU? I'd think so.

  3. Vi You've been kind with her recently and I'm grateful for that. Do you think she could use some more small buffs and/or quality of life changes in order for her to be pushed into pro play material?

Glad you brought champion VO up. Imho, it's really a shame and unfair that some champs barely have 10 lines or less altogether and the only way for them to get new/expanded VO is via a skin (legendary/ultimate most of the time) that not all of the players can access while newer ones have 6-7 lines for the same thing, just different tone/accent/punctuation. For example, during Burning Tides, Gangplank got an insanely large new VO, both basic and in his Captain skin while MF MissFortune nothing to reflect that big story she went through (not even a specific taunt towards GP feelsbad). Many people call her bimbo with guns which isn't the case- at least, not anymore. I understand that it can be hard if you want to do everything with the original voice actor(s) but technology allows for some great facilitations nowadays. For example, with some sound editing, I believe you could make new lines sound as close to the source material as possible (even the exact same).

For the change to how patches come, I don't mind, so long as you said tackle problems quickly (for example, if we get something like release Camille or post rework Malz/Morde straight from the oven). On the other hand, large patches don't need to be that frequent- especially if they're XL, they can confuse people that it's pre/mid season all over again lol.

And finally, here's an idea for an Inspiration keystone

Feels Good to Share: Target enemy Champion. All of current debuffs you have get transferred to the target and all of target's current buffs are transferred to you for the duration (maybe make it have really small range so it won't be that much stronger on ranged champs).

rathy Aro3 votes

Quinn has never been intended to play as an adc. She plays fine from top and mid and the rioter who reworked specifically said he expected her to be good mid. I understand that it can confuse people and maybe riot can clear up her role, but there's nothing actually wrong with her.

SecondComing4 votes

[{quoted}](name=rathy Aro,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=ZAdYKnhP,comment-id=001d0000,timestamp=2017-09-01T17:43:23.031+0000)

Quinn has never been intended to play as an adc. She plays fine from top and mid and the rioter who reworked specifically said he expected her to be good mid. I understand that it can confuse people and maybe riot can clear up her role, but there's nothing actually wrong with her.

Rioter who reworked her also got a LOT of unhappy and dissatisfied players because it made Valor feel more of a pet carrying you around than feeling an actual member of the duo. Quinn's pbe thread was easily the largest out of every other marksman being updated then- and not for good reasons.

Latest balance changes she went through stated that they wanted to push her away from burst and more into DPS (which is what adcs do by book), by reducing the AD ratio on ult and increasing the % att speed you get from W (those were dev comments btw).

So, "never intended to play as adc" and "nothing actually wrong with her"? Yeah, I don't think so really... It's not like Graves whose update clearly intended for him to be played as a jungler/not adc (tho people still play him there)

Kaeblen4 votes

so... the pbe complaings were largely lore/thematic complaints?

In gameplay, my opinion with Quinn is that, because of the tools available in her kit, she would remain a viable, valuable, and highly effective champion even if her damage output were cut in half.

I don't say that because I think she deals too much damage I say it because her biggest strengths_ have nothing to do with damage_. Her blind. Map-wide-mobility. Her engage/disengage dash. Vision benefits. If she were nerfed, she might play a different role, but I don't see such a champion ever struggling for something useful to do.

If she dealt DPS as high as other Marksmen do, wouldn't that overshadow what she already has?

Why would you even want her to be like the other Marksmen? ##She's Unique. They Aren't.

TripleBBB5 votes

Any news on the Evelynn rework? What patch is she most likely to be released in and can we expect a teaser soon?

DeathBurst4 votes
  1. Tweaking VO sounds very far from Live Gameplay's workload. What triggered you to post this part?
  2. About Big vs Small patches, I'm not sure I really understand what you mean. Especially, what would be the delay between two small patches versus the delay between two big patches? Would the two type of patches advance in parallel?
RiotMeddler7 votes

Tweaking VO's not very live gameplay associated at all. Neither are new champions/VGUs, most of the development of Runes, ideas for new dragons, changes to the ban system etc or a lot of other things that I believe will be of interest to people in these posts. I figure people want to hear about Live Gameplay work a lot, so often talk about that, but don't want to limit things to just the work of one team.

Big patch, then 2 weeks after that, small patch, then 2 weeks after that big patch etc.

Pewpewqchew4 votes

Hey, since this is a bit controversial and gets downvoted on reddit and on the forums since it's related to Yasuo i decided to post here. Could he get the Lee Sin wardhop treatment that was done a while back? Just a little QoL change to make him smoother in high ping environments, this could also be done to many other champions.

For anyone who doesn't know, Lee can now cast his W while using a ward. I was thinking of allowing him to E while he's dashing.

RiotMeddler5 votes

Rather than doing Lee Sin style individual changes on a lot of champs we're working instead on building a proper system that does that stuff automatically. Lee Sin was used as a proof of concept for the benefits of such an approach, in part because the impact latency has on that combo's so dramatic versus most abilities.

Ashen Rider2 votes

Can you give us any info on when that may come out, or on what/how many abilities it would apply to?

RiotMeddler4 votes

I'm not sure on timing sorry, it's being looked at by a new team that's also looking into things like making packet loss less painful (help for people playing on Wi-Fi especially) and general server reaction speed. Would likely be something applied to all or almost all abilities in terms of how buffering works in general.

Pewpewqchew2 votes

Thanks for the reply, also its really great you guys listen to player feedback!

dreadnoughtus014 votes

Any chance you could give Karma a small buff before her rework? She seems to be doing worse than Ryze and Azir in Solo Q.

44% support and 42% mid respectively (Champion.gg).

Maybe not to her E since the shield meta is problematic right now, but maybe to her poke or w? Just something to help her out a bit and so she's not as, or what seems like, a handicap to your team.

Guttler4 votes

I'm a little concerned about the big vs small patches. I trust y'all with game balance and I don't want a situation in which my games are not fun because of some development, but you wont be able to touch it for a long time due to it needing to be in a big patch vs a small one.

Glîtchy3 votes

Quick question, will you be improving voices for Ahri, Anivia, Traditional Trundle, and Lux's laugh? Cause Lux's laugh is an ENTIRELY different voice from her actual quotes.

KinfThaDerp3 votes

{quoted}

Cause Lux's laugh is an ENTIRELY different voice from her actual quotes.

Lux's voice wasn't changed because of the meme, all her other voice lines were. that's why it feels out of place

Glîtchy1 votes

{quoted}

Lux's voice wasn't changed because of the meme, all her other voice lines were. that's why it feels out of place

The problem is a different voice for a laugh makes little sense.

RiotMeddler11 votes

It's the same actress for context, just the older recording.

GirlsAlwaysSupp3 votes

Can you give some details about Azir ? I.e. where is the lost power put into?

RiotMeddler11 votes

More details to follow/stuff is subject to change. Some likely buffs however include:

+10 base MS Lower Q CD late game Lower W CD early game Bonus AS when Azir has 3+ soldiers on the field Shield has an AP ratio, though shorter duration

EROTIC RAID BOSS4 votes

sounds like a pretty cool direction to me, interesting layer you'd added on to give him more windowed power when he has a little army of soldiers up

RiotMeddler8 votes

Yeah, that one's tested really well so far. Particularly helpful since it rewards Azir for playing more aggressively, rather than almost always trying to sit on a W charge for E wherever desired.

ProvidenceNox1 votes

More mobility, lower cooldowns, more necessity to use his E correctly and a new mechanic on his W? That sounds like a recipe for an even higher skill cap. I thought you guys wanted to lower his skill cap a bit so the difference between good and bad Azir players wasn't ruining his balance?

Also, not a fan in the mobility direction either. Azir's a long range carry mage who's supposed be commanding in the back, not a dive in 1v5 playmaker.

IxtaliKing4 votes

I don't think they would have wanted to lower his skill cap, maybe his skill floor but not cap.

It seems like they chose this direction because they believe it to be easier to balance, and requires much less work.

Shadow Sketches3 votes

Meddler, any plans for Wukong? He's been in a bad state for a long time now and has been ignored for most of that time. He's long past due a much needed rework. Any plans for reworking him after Xin, and in the mean time give him some minor buffs to him during pre-season at least. At least making his jungle clear not absolutely terrible since jungle is the only role he can really shine without being dumpstered on, dying on the first clear being a very real threat to him for litteraly no reason.

Kayn has bonus dmg to monsters on his q, why not give Wu the same thing. Maybe making it so his e does more to camps in order to help his clear which he majorly needs.

Qiyana is SO HOT3 votes

Meddler with preseason rapidly approaching is there possibly any plans to look again at AP vs AD itemization? Primary concerns are items like item 3089 not being worth the cost and the ease in being able to itemize vs AP as opposed to being able to itemize vs AD. Examples being the power difference between item 3155 and item 3191 and how item 3157 is really ap users (mages and ap assassins) only defense vs the abundance of AD users right now. Is this something you guys have at least talked about?

250ssc2 votes

when is Yasuo change going to happen?

Hungry Cancer2 votes

As far as the patches go why don't you just fix what needs to be fixed when it needs to be fixed as opposed to focusing on keeping to a particular size of patch for whatever reason? It just seems like common sense that if something needs to be patched, such as a balance issue, then you would want to go ahead and deal with it at the soonest possible convenience and even do it mid-patch if necessary. I'd hate to see either end of the spectrum where something isn't fixed for a few patch cycles because you're waiting for a particular sized patch, or things being adjusted that really don't need it just to make a patch bigger. I've personally really liked the mid-patch updates that you have been doing lately because they fix a problem when it needs to be fixed as opposed to forcing us to wait 2 weeks to see if something in need of fixing is going to find its way into the patch this time around.

Ahris1 votes

Will we be seeing any apc item rework? Current itemization seems very bland, like especially deathcap being very hard to make, making a cheaper and weaker version of deathcap like:

Mage's Cap:

60 ap Unique passive: +20% ap

^ this can be a good replacement for amplifying totem and blasting wand. Making it build from blasting wand and amplifying totem + some gold . This will make it so that the ridiculous build path of rabadons feel somewhat worth building for. Thanks!

Adalvar3 votes

It's a nice idea, but i feel that overall D.Cap needs to have it's passive cut back to 30-25% and it's cost reduced, otherwise individual AP items will remain with very low amounts of AP.

Maybe cut the passive to 15%?

Ahris3 votes

{quoted}

It's a nice idea, but i feel that overall D.Cap needs to have it's passive cut back to 30-25% and it's cost reduced, otherwise individual AP items will remain with very low amounts of AP.

Maybe cut the passive to 15%?

So other ap item's ap will receive a buff? If so that will be great.

Adalvar2 votes

In a nutshell. The lack of 100-120 AP items, poor state of item 3027 item 3040 and the introduction of the Gathering Storm rune, will likely require a AP rebalance at some point.

Mr Boom Bang1 votes

is it possible to rewind Leblanc back to her original state before her update???

1x Stormbreaker2 votes

actually not good idea because old leblanc had very high fast burst unlike now leblanc now have the high burst but she can't instant burst someone like adcs if some peeled for him

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