Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 17

RiotMeddler·Oct 17, 2018·1 votes·142,160 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Second Test Run for Nexus Blitz

For anyone who missed it we put up an article recently talking about what's next for Nexus Blitz. Short version is:

Nexus Blitz found an audience of players who really liked it, size of that audience was smaller than we'd been hoping for though, so we're not making it permanent, at least not yet.
We'll be bringing it back for a second test run in 8.24, so it'll be available throughout the holiday period at the end of the year. We'll then assess what should happen next with it after that.
We'll be acting on a lot of different types of feedback received, with changes including adding bans, revisions to events/rewards, clarity improvements etc.

https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/10/dev-up-next-for-nexus-blitz/

Why we're not planning to have flat pen/lethality in Rune Stats

Come preseason we'll be making it so instead of getting stats based off your choice of Rune styles you'll instead be able to pick a few choices of stat directly. One question I wanted to talk about there was why we're not planning on having flat pen/lethality be an available stat there. They're stats you could get in the old runes system and we do see requests for it to be offered fairly regularly.

Primary reasons:

Flat pen offers a larger damage increase to squishy targets than to tanky targets, in contrast to AD/AP which are more neutral. We're not looking to increase damage to squishies specifically.
Itemization has been balanced around the removal of most flat pen from pregame. Adding it back in would mean another pass on Sorc Shoes, Lethality items etc to get to a similar end spot. Disruption versus benefit doesn't seem worth it.

Secondary reasons:

Keeping number of stats lower leads to a easier and cleaner UI
Understanding whether flat pen or AP/AD will provide more damage is often a really mathy choice, rather than a clearer trade off.

State of Ezreal

Now that his update's been out for a little while wanted to share a few thoughts on Ezreal:

His AD build's performing pretty solidly, particularly given the amount his play rate's shot up, which tends to depress performance for a while as less experienced players get on a champ. We estimate that build's in a spot where it's balanced, or possibly slightly strong long term once this players have more experience with the kit changes.
His AP by contrast's looking weaker than it was pre update.
We're looking at buffing his W rank up damage as a result, given AD Ezreal maxes that last and AP Ezreal maxes it first or second. That will likely be in 8.22.
We're avoiding putting more power into AP ratios because we're already seeing the double tear builds be pretty powerful and giving him more value for AP pushes all his builds towards double tear as the way to go, removing variety.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

183 Comments

ModThe DjinnOct 17, 201840 votes

Odd question, but one I've never managed to get an answer for:

Have you ever considered using Rapidfire Cannon's range-indicating tech to display changing auto-attack ranges on champions like Twitch, Tristana, and Kayle? I know one of my longest QoL wants in League is the ability to toggle on a persistent auto-attack range indicator for Marksmen, and it seems like it would at least increase the feel of abilities like this, where much of the appreciable power comes from the value of the range increase -- something that is often invisible.

Thoughts?

TomiMan7Oct 17, 20181 votes

This would add soo much power to adc's they could just wiggle in and out of the enemys range since they would exactly know where their limits are. This way you could harass without any return dmg. If you want to add something like this, this would have to be done to other abilities as well.

ModThe DjinnOct 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

This would add soo much power to adc's they could just wiggle in and out of the enemys range since they would exactly know where their limits are. This way you could harass without any return dmg. If you want to add something like this, this would have to be done to other abilities as well.

All other abilities have this option: you can toggle on smart cast, but the default cast AND the click-and-release cast all show you your exact ability indicator, so you can opt-in at all times. The only way to reveal your auto-attack range is through a clunky interface that can't be kept on easily while moving, and doesn't give you the information you need when you're attacking, while you CAN get the information you need when casting spells through the other casting options.

WinterkillOct 17, 201810 votes

The Mini-Rework for Karma is not addressing the plethora of issues that have yet to be addressed. I'm not trying to point fingers Meddler but it is nearing the end of 2018. In 2013 this champion received a VGU that didn't meet the mark and didn't solve her original problems. It took this Development team 5 years to give her a rework that was supposed to address just one of her issues that continues to be swept under a rug.

I don't care about new players. I don't care about old players. It's getting to the point that not matter what people want done, you don't do anything. I don't want to have to go over all of her problems again but I feel like I have to constantly do this because almost all of you live in this delusional world that the VGU 5 years ago was successful.

Still no identity. The scope of this rework, admitted by your Development team, was QOL changes and giving Karma a new W and Mantra W. From the looks of the spoilers, it doesn't look like her gameplay identity has been worked on at all. The entire point of her VGU 5 years ago was to give her a gameplay identity and new thematic. You didn't succeed with any of that and this rework could have been a perfect opportunity to do that.

Karma mains wanted her fans back, a new passive, Mantra Q to new be blocked by minions, an ally function with Mantra W, and shield bomb back. None of that is happening on Karma from the looks of it. Karma is getting a new Mantra W that functions the same but it "will help her jungling".

You still have yet to give her a running and shield casting animations, fix her animations, give her better VO, give the champion original taunts that isn't on another champion, and you know . . . give us an actual VU that isn't rushed and constantly ignored.
There is nothing unique about this champion and everything that was unique was purposely removed from your Development team, so new champions can get the limelight. What did LoL players say was an iconic thing about Karma? Her fans and shield bomb. WAIT!? She doesn't have that anymore.

Remember though, you made Karma players wait an entire year to get a new Mantra W that isn't addressing the sizable amount of issues that you created and continue to ignore, Meddler. What did this rework accomplish that fixes Karma's identity, art problems, thematic and gameplay issues? It doesn't because you want to cater to new players and blatantly ignore the community that helped build your game up and supported you. You are literally giving every old Karma main a huge middle finger when you priotrize work on Ezreal and you do 7 plus reworks/VGU on Ryze, when you are blatantly ignoring champions that you screwed up on.

So what is going to be so successful about this Karma update that you think is going to make people think she is a better champion? You are not even tackling one of her problems that YOU created and refuse to rectify.

VeXuMOct 17, 20189 votes

Any thoughts on making Essence Reaver a crit item again, and having it share a unique passive with IE to avoid the huge crit multiplier? Also Kha Zix and Lucian seem very strong atm for solo q, any thoughts on them?

IxtaliKingOct 17, 20188 votes

Any news on Karma's mini GU?

RmlthlOct 17, 20188 votes

I have only one question for you - Are there going to be changes towards Essence Reaver? The item itself is extremely cost efficient as it is right now, it will get even better once you reduce the price and we aren't even counting the passive ability you get. But the problem is it was designed with ADCs in mind (such as Xayah, Kai'Sa and so on) but right now it is nothing more than a luxury item for them and it is rarely getting picked into higher levels of gameplay (where it should matter). Ironically enough it is being abused by Lucian and severa other fighters such as Nasus, Jax or Riven who have no reason to do so.

RiotMeddlerOct 17, 20189 votes

Potentially, It's on our list of items that aren't in great states, as with Rageblade/Edge of Night it's something we're planning to look at, but wouldn't want to make any promises beyond that yet.

As a side note this version of Essence Reaver was designed to be good for fighters as well as marksmen. Even on fighters like the ones you list though we're not really seeing it perform all that strongly. It's a reasonable choice at times, and will feel very strong when it really pops off, but doesn't seem to be out of line with other items they could be choosing instead on average.

EyesOfTheFoxOct 17, 20188 votes

Once they removed the crit and retooled the passive to not be affected by crit strikes, crit marksmen threw it in the trash. It honestly gets in the way of things marksmen need now, like attack speed and crit. So in "essence" they basically made it a melee only item (aside from Lucian who benefits from it the most because he spams the most and gets two shots for the price of one thanks to his passive). MF won't build it anymore because of lethality. I mean they basically ruined marksmen build paths and forced us all to take Stormrazor as a first item or get shit on in lane.

Linna ExcelOct 17, 20181 votes

The new ER seems like trash on every ADC atm. No one wants to buy mana on an ADC except EZ and he already gets manamune.

Why not just delete stormrazor and Rework ER into being

70 AD 30% AS 1% mana refund on hit 10 + (.10 AS) physical damage on hit

That would give it good base damage, keep the on hit, give it AS and an AS damage multiplier for people who build zeal items, rageblade, bork, or bloodrazor.

ModWulf HelhammerOct 17, 20184 votes

And where’s the CDR?

AP EzrealOct 17, 20188 votes

Hi Meddler,

I'm sure you can guess by my name what I'm here for. I really don't think that a W base damage per rank buff is the way to go on buffing AP Ezreal. I think rather than ranting in a solid paragraph it'd be easier if I bullet point my thoughts on this.

W is never maxed 2nd on AP Ezreal. It's first or last. E is too important. A buff like this kills Q max AP Ezreal, which currently is more viable than W max and is predominantly what I find success with (and what I have found success with for years).
Q currently doesn't have a high enough AP ratio for Ezreal to one-shot caster minions with Sheen and Luden's Echo. I've always been able to do this with Q max AP until now, and considering that AD Ezreal has bad waveclear, and AP has even worse clear, this is a bit of a nuisance.
You seem cautious to buff AP ratios due to the effect it'd have on incentivising the double tear build. Why not just kill the double tear build? It doesn't seem like something that was intended, and it doesn't seem like something that can ever be considered "healthy". I understand that you probably want more build diversity for Ezreal, but it sucks that AP Ezreal will never receive a ratio buff simply because you want this single item to be available to AD Ezreal players that already have very solid build options without it.
It's a smaller point, but buffing W base damage does still add to the power of AD Ezreal, if only at later ranks where Ezreal should fall off anyway. Additionally, when you're building AP, I don't really think that more W damage would be a good choice considering how much damage you already do it objectives with it.
W in lane currently has one issue, and that's that for a lot of the time you'll be burning E to proc it as minions will block your Q and you don't get the mana refund by auto-attacking the mark. Placing more damage into W and incentivising a play style where the following applies A). You can't control your wave because you have no Q base damage and the ratio has been nerfed B). You're dealing all of your damage in a single hit, as rank 1 Q is negligible C). You're in the shortest lane and in order to get off your main damage you have to burn your safety spell. Personally, this seems unhealthy for the Ezreal player (Has an extremely risky damage combo that he is completely reliant on when a wave is present, which will be more often as he can't clear the wave with rank 1 Q) and for the enemy (they get hit for ridiculous amounts of damage in a single proc).

tl;dr Stop double tear builds and give me an ap ratio buff on Q, just 10% would do :) xoxo

I really hope you reply to this with your thoughts, and I sincerely hope you consider my alternative, or seek out a different buff.

SpideraxeOct 17, 20186 votes

Oh yeah any plans for Rageblade or Edge of Night since Captain Gameplay said you guys might look into them this preseason

RiotMeddlerOct 17, 20186 votes

We'll be testing some stuff out, nothing concrete enough I'd want to make any promises about changes in preseason or particular directions though.

FlufyBunnyRengarOct 17, 20185 votes

Could you give some power back to Rumble Jungle?

limebusterOct 17, 20185 votes

opinion on lux rn? i think shes ok at lower elos but once you get higher shes pretty garbage against most picks, id love if you guys changed her w or added some extra effect to the shield :)

Sharpest glassesOct 17, 20184 votes

Would love if they fixed her hitboxes

i got big sadOct 17, 20185 votes

Hey Meddler, Posting this again as it seems to escaping you. Just wondering if there are any balance plans for Zac in the future. He's been in a really rough spot since about March and could definitely use the boost. I believe he's been sitting between a 45 and 47% winrate quite consistently. Thanks for any reply.

RiotMeddlerOct 17, 20184 votes

Looking at a possible buff to his Q damage, agree his early game especially's lacking at present. Might hit PBE today, possible it's something we look at next patch instead though, can't recall off top of the head.

AxeritoOct 17, 20182 votes

What about bringing back his old ultimate? Many people hate the Zac rework just because of his new one. Let's also do not forget that new Zac R makes him way harder to balance considering pro play versus soloq.

VekknaOct 17, 20185 votes

•Understanding whether flat pen or AP/AD will provide more damage is often a really mathy choice, rather than a clearer trade off.

Check out this conversation from a year ago:

https://twitter.com/RiotRepertoir/status/932814895510257665

Me: The problem is that we have pen-reliant mages without enough pen to preserve 7.21 power curves. 45% of the game's flat pen was just deleted from the game without any good reason. The design question is whether these mages should be less reliant on pen since the pen doesn't exist.

Rep: They should probably just be less reliant moving forward, since we don't anticipate adding any flat pen back in. As such, if there are champions suffering on account of lack of pen (Zyra, Brand, etc.), we should just adjust those champions.

Look at the changelogs for Brand and Zyra. Every damage change to Zyra since 6.14 and Brand since 6.9 has increased their pen reliance rather than decreased it. So what gives?

To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying they need more damage. I'm saying that Riot shouldn't be making champions rely on tons of pen, deny them the stat they need, then continue to double-down on the pen reliance.

If you aren't supporting these designs through pen itemization, these champs' power curves become disproportionately dependent on enemy MR. On the flipside, pen math makes it hard to judge their relative power, and unexpectedly high damage makes them feel cheap and frustrating to play against.

I wish we could just get pen-stackers rebalanced to a point where they don't need a tuning pass with every pen/resist change. 7.24 and 8.1 are good evidence that it's not sustainable.

PaletongueOct 19, 20181 votes

Hey do you mind explaining what makes them more pen reliant than before? I know its true from playing them, but why is it? Smaller Ap ratios yet more sources of damage?

VekknaOct 19, 20182 votes

These are the sorts of changes I'm referring to:

Zyra

E: Base damage increased to 60 / 105 / 150 / 195 / 240 from 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200.
Q: Base damage increased to 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 from 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180. (AP scaling increased to 60% AP from 55% AP)
Increased plant frequency/duration
During rework, plant damage reduced to 29 − 114 + .15 AP from 29.5 − 140 + .2 AP.

Brand

Blaze: Damage per stack increased to 4% of target's maximum health from 2%.
During rework, max Blaze damage increased from 8% to 24 - 28% maximum health
During rework, total base damage and AP ratio on abilities was reduced from 1818 + 3.45 AP to 1212 + 2.15 AP
Reduced ability cooldowns across the board, increasing passive uptime

Items

Liandry's: Ability power reduced to 75 from 80
Torment damage per second increased to 1.5% / 2.5% from 1% / 1.5%
New Madness passive increases magic damage by 10%
Luden's: Rework made it a more commonly built item

Runes (Added Base/Flat Damage)

Scorch: 10-30 magic damage
Comet: 30-100 + .2 AP
Electrocute: 30-180 + .25 AP
Precision first row % damage increases

In aggregate, these changes represent a large increase in AP-independent damage on champs where it was already high. This causes AP-dependent damage to be an even smaller share of total damage.

Meddler's right that pen vs. AP power levels are really math-intensive. AP ratios are static, so 100 AP with a 3.0 ratio is always worth 300 gross damage. The net damage after MR is 261 at 15 MR, 200 at 50 MR, 150 at 100 MR, and 120 at 150 MR. In other words, you take 100 less damage going from 0-50 MR, then 50 less going from 50-100 MR, the only 20 less going from 100-150 MR.

On the other hand, the effective damage increase you get from 15 mpen swings from 13% at 15 MR, 7% at 50 MR, 4% at 100 MR, and 2.5% at 150 MR. But unlike AP's flat increase in gross damage, mpen's increase in gross damage depends on your current damage values. That's where a whole slew of additional variables have to be factored in.

Zyra is the best example of this (or worst, depending on your point of view). She gets average base damage increases with skill rank. She also gets plant damage increase per champion level. That base damage is multiplied by number of plants and plant attacks. Those values are then multiplied by 1.5 during her ult. Even under common conditions (ult, 3 plants, 3 attacks each), a 114 base damage on a plant attack turns into 1026 base damage from plants in a decent combo. Meanwhile, the .15 AP ratio on a plant attack adds up to just 1.35 AP in the same combo.

That's a lot of variables just to figure out what her damage is so we can determine whether a % increase from pen is cost effective. Mind you, this ignores all of her abilities, runes, bonuses, items. Assuming 0 AP for purposes of this example, Zyra's plants will get the same or more effective damage from buying Sorcs than NLR against any enemy with 60 or less MR.

Interestingly enough, Zed works basically the same way Zyra does. His tooltip base damage is low, but it's subject to a bunch of multipliers. That 220 + .9 bAD on Q at level 9, multiplied by shadows and mark, adds up to 825 + 3.375 bAD from only shurikens.

TL;DR: If you have high base damage (or multipliers like Zyra and Zed), the % increase in base damage is often worth more than raw AP/AD. Riot's changes listed above tilt the scale further towards pen and away from AP. The base damage buff to Zyra's E is a good example here. Before the buff a rank 5 E at level 9 got about the same benefit from buying Sorcs or a Blasting Wand. After the buff, she would need to buy at least 8-12 AP more AP to break even with Sorcs.

DısdaınOct 18, 20185 votes

Remove item 3147 from the game. Revert lethality back to flat armorpen.

T8 SpeedwagonOct 17, 20184 votes

Wanted to say thanks for the buffs on Elise from few weeks ago. It's much more relaxing clearing jungle. Wanted to know how she ended in terms of balance after the buffs and if you have any plans for her in the (near) future.

RiotMeddlerOct 17, 20185 votes

Nothing immediately planned. For smaller balance assessments we're also at the point where anything that might be just lighter numbers tweaking will often wait until after preseason, given that'll shift balance around anyway so better to just assess once that's landed, splitting choice of stats from Rune trees especially.

TALENTED TOPLANEOct 17, 20184 votes

Meddler, why no nerfs to Kassadin?

RoughBustinoOct 17, 20184 votes

Any changes for Zilean passive? It’s really clunky and hard to use.

Salvor HardınOct 17, 201811 votes

I'd love for Zilean to get a rework like Ezreal.

Final Raid BossOct 18, 20182 votes

He has amazing thematic potential but idk has always seemed kinda mediocre (not saying the champ is 'bad'). Make this guy some bad ass time bending Dumbledore you know?

Gosh DarnOct 17, 20184 votes

Just make the tear items exclusive like the hydra items or disable a passive like Athene's disables Mikael's. No other champion does double tear so if you want to keep double tear Ez from being strong just make it impossible or not optimal.

BadgerDroolOct 17, 20184 votes

Any thoughts on reworked Nunu's current state? He's been a bit overshadowed with worlds and other balance concerns. His pickrates pretty low.

SpideraxeOct 17, 20183 votes

Hey Meddler can i ask why the Pyke changes were pulled? Are you guys looking into another changelist

RiotMeddlerOct 17, 20188 votes

Yeah still looking at Pyke, believe conclusion was that while we liked the goal of that last set of changes the delivery wasn't hitting the mark, at least not yet. We're about to lock changes for the next patch, so generally anything not in it will be gone from PBE today.

Old Man RivenOct 17, 20183 votes

Any new thoughts on the Fighter items coming in this preseason? Deadline is coming up I am guessing.

RiotMeddlerOct 17, 201810 votes

They're being discussed a bit at the moment. Current thinking is Spear of Shojin probably still makes sense but needs some tuning. Atma's Reckoning's less clearly needed. More thoughts to come though once we've done a more thorough analysis.

Old Man RivenOct 17, 20183 votes

Ah ok, thanks! I will be happy to have one of them, but is the thought that the health-stacking fighters (juggernauts mostly) are just taken care of in terms of items, or just aren’t really weak/haven’t been weak due to itemization?

I kinda thought Atma was a good companion to Sterak+cleaver or as an alt to one?

RiotMeddlerOct 17, 20184 votes

Combination of those health stacking fighters generally being in solid spots at present and a decent range of other damage options for them, with Titanic especially overlapping. Not a committed decision yet, but that's where we're trending.

tyrone martinsOct 17, 20183 votes

When will you fix the Shaco stormrazor bug?

Kowe The EwokOct 18, 20183 votes

Any news on Corki? You said a while ago that you were looking to give him some love. Then the whole project went radio silent :/

Smartness ImmuneOct 18, 20182 votes

Was going to ask the same. They said they are going to buff him, but in the end they didn't buff him at all.

PapaGreg21Oct 18, 20183 votes

Is jungle diversity being looked at? It has been a mess since scuttle changes and I see Graves/Lee Sin or a couple of other junglers almost every game. The tank junglers are almost non-existent it seems.

Final Raid BossOct 18, 20183 votes

Why are changes so few currently? Anything for Zac?

Stars ShaperOct 18, 20182 votes

Can we get some light on the Aurelion Sol HP nerf?

If you didn't want him to survive the burst then you could have kept item 3030 as our core item instead of forcing us into item 3027 .

PoItronOct 19, 20182 votes

Can we revert shaco, this current one is nothing more than a low elo solo q stomper. Also he has so manyyy bugs.

KhristophorosOct 19, 20182 votes

RE Ezreal: I don't understand what skill order has to do with AP or AD. The ratios do not scale by skill rank.

I always maxed W second regardless of AD or AP because it's safer damage than E. I always maxed Q first because it's more consistent damage. All we're talking about here are the base damages and cooldowns. And yes I know you could buy penetration, but Ezreal doesn't do that.

Personally I see no compelling reason to go AP on him. Either way he has a strong Q because he's gonna get some kind of Spellblade item. AD just gets a lot more utility to go with it and also Muramana for higher damage late game. Speaking of which, why does Muramana still exist?

RekSai CoffeeCoOct 20, 20182 votes

Thanks for letting everyone know there is no reason to log in till patch 8.24.

RagnaveilOct 19, 20181 votes

Hey, any chance Vik might receive nerfs? He's currently 53% in top with almost 7% pickrate. http://na.op.gg/champion/viktor/statistics/top If you (doesn't have to be all of these, but they are in order of importance) remove the mana ratio from Q, revert the recent buff to his Ms buff on upgraded Q, lower the base damage on Q (lazer auto), and maybe up the mana cost it might send him back to midlane where he belongs, then can buff him for his midlane play (or dont and wait till he just becomes meta in the right way, instead of this current abomination). The cost lowering for his first upgrade was a buff to his mid, but the enabler to make his toplane play strong along with other buffs he got. I don't want the cost stuff to be reverted, but his Q needs to be peppered with nerfs to make it not an insta win in toplane.

NascyOct 19, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Hey, any chance Vik might receive nerfs? He's currently 53% in top with almost 7% pickrate. http://na.op.gg/champion/viktor/statistics/top If you (doesn't have to be all of these, but they are in order of importance) remove the mana ratio from Q, revert the recent buff to his Ms buff on upgraded Q, lower the base damage on Q (lazer auto), and maybe up the mana cost it might send him back to midlane where he belongs, then can buff him for his midlane play (or dont and wait till he just becomes meta in the right way, instead of this current abomination). The cost lowering for his first upgrade was a buff to his mid, but the enabler to make his toplane play strong along with other buffs he got. I don't want the cost stuff to be reverted, but his Q needs to be peppered with nerfs to make it not an insta win in toplane.

make vik mid better and he'll leave toplane on his own. AKA gut all the antimages in mid aka all the assassins, irelia and kass.

RagnaveilOct 20, 20182 votes

Idk how thats gonna work anyway. Gut Irelia and she goes back to pending for another rework, same with every other assassin. The only reason he really wasn't picked this season (until now) was the fact games end faster, so his late game power would rarely come to light unless he was snowballing (which his kit makes it very hard to get a snowball going without being camped). Kass happens to be lucky and can exist in this meta since burst and divers are the name of the game. Once defensive stats (including base) get buffed in the preseason, he might be bearable. Vik won't be if this continues.

The mains for Vik should be coming together and create a list for Riot to work off to buff midlane vik, while avoiding to repeat what is happening. Usually what follows after something like this is a gutting (take Quinn for example when this same exact shit happened with her).