Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 16

RiotMeddler·Mar 16, 2018·1 votes·47,356 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Some possible 8.7 changes

Some potential 8.7 patch changes below. 8.7's a small patch, particularly since we're approaching midseason so are putting some time into that. It'll be on the lighter side as a result, with a fair bit of it made up from things that didn't make it in time for 8.6. Early on in the 8.7 development cycle we'll also be more focused on systemic changes than champion stuff, a bit of extra champion balance work is likely to make it in later though.

Champions

Swain nerf. Most likely candidates are Q CD (might have lowered it too far) and Q damage. Still figuring details out though, nothing solid yet.
Rumble buff. Straight Q and R damage buffs from 8.6 were ok but don't think they were targeted enough at Rumble's problems. Trying to do a bit more as a result.
Ahri changes (still working on clearer highs and lows, plus general strengths and weaknesses).
LB changes. More likely to be in 8.8 at this point because there's some visual effects work still needed that's not on track for an 8.7 release. Possible it still makes it into 8.7 though.
Kayn changes that should smooth out transformation point gain over game time. Likely to be a slight buff and should help lane Kayn a bit more than jungle Kayn too.

Runes

Manaflow Band nerf/reshape (reduces mana gating too much)
Presence of Mind reshape (too strong on its best users, not strong enough on many others)
Numbers tuning on some other runes that are just not balanced well enough (e.g. Approach Velocity is weak, Celerity is strong etc)

Items

Still working to make Locket more contextual (good some games, bad others) and probably less effective against single target burst champs
Looking at Ninja Tabi, given they're really dominant choices for the boots slot and can have a very large impact on some lanes. Number of things we need to figure out here, including how much they're just too good a general choice, how much they're just too strong, how important they are as a safety valve to AA champs, how much of a safety valve (or excessive counter?) to Lethality, what the right mixture of Armor versus other defensive effects is etc. We're trying to avoid solving a couple of problems only to replace them with other equally large ones.

Non LoL related game design: Floating Combat Text in Diablo 3

Interesting article below where some of the Diablo 3 team talk about their approach to building a better combat text approach, including problems they had to solve around localizing for different languages, delivering both satisfaction and readability, working well with a variety of different hero builds and appropriate use of color. Well worth a read if that sounds like your sort of thing.

https://eu.diablo3.com/en/blog/19996041/engineering-diablo-iiis-damage-numbers-22-01-2016

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

316 Comments

IxtaliKingMar 16, 201812 votes

Hey Meddler, a couple questions for you:

I hear that Ahri's rework/partial revert was pulled to work more on her W. Will she be getting a completely new W? (Apologies if this has been answered already)
In light of all these recent partial reverts (LB, Rengar, Ahri etc...), has this direction been considered for Karma? It seems that a lot of her gameplay issues stem from those 5.10 changes (I could be wrong).

RiotMeddlerMar 16, 201814 votes

Ahri - changes weren't ready in general for 8.6, hence they got delayed to 8.7. That won't include a replacement W. That'd take a much larger amount of time, art included. Right now we're trying to get some quicker improvements to Ahri since artist time's being used on other projects.

Karma - still expecting we'll do some form of smaller update to her this year. I think she's got a lot of issues that were present before the 5.10 changes, so I don't feel going back on those would solve a huge amount of things. Would want to look whether the removal of the shield bomb in particular though has worked out as planned or not (not certain either way personally, but believe it would be worth digging into certainly).

A Draconian KingMar 16, 20183 votes

[deleted]

IxtaliKingMar 16, 20185 votes

As much as I love many things about old Karma, this wouldn't work. Her rework brought many 'feel' improvements, that wouldn't be good if they were to be reverted e.g. MS on E. However, they cut too much away in her rework.

The most reasonable course of action is a merge between the 2 iterations, with updates of her old mechanics (tether damage, shield bomb etc..).

Warden KarmaMar 16, 201811 votes

Thanks so much for the update!

Personly I think that Karma needs more than a small update. The 5.10 Patch left her with more issues than she had before; most importantly the Mantra issues:

5.10 was not good for her contextual decision making (in terms of choosing which ability to Mantra, which is core for her skillexpression); it is now even less dependend on the situation, instead Mantra is bond to the role you choosed.

It takes so much decision making away as most Mantra's will be just predetermined (RQ as Mid, RE as Support, RW as Tank/Battlemage). The Mantra's dont compete enough against each other across the roles, especially since their damage were removed (RW,RE), making them not very usefull in other roles.

IxtaliKingMar 16, 20184 votes

Ahri - That's a shame, but fair enough.

Karma - I'm glad to hear the removal of shield bomb is being looked into, that's great news.

Thanks for the quick response :)

Wukong AirlinesMar 16, 20188 votes

Hey Meddler. When will you at least talk about MonkeyKing future plans? or at least, rework his passive?

a Passive tells much about a Champion, it gives the champion an identity. Yasuo for example, wouldn't be Yasuo if his passive wasn't the way it is.

So yes. Wukong's passive needs to be addressed immediately and be granted a reworked no matter how much you try to compensate for the item 3147 nerfs.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMar 16, 20184 votes

if only wu's issues were only his passive (or non passive)...

Votable JesterMar 16, 20182 votes

A passive doesn't tell you that much about a champion. For example you'd get the completely wrong impression from Lux 's passive.

KazekibaMar 16, 20183 votes

Lux's passive works great for a combo mage, I just wish Leona 's would work similarly - at least on certain targets (Champs, large/epic monsters) Jungle Leona is a long time pipe dream, and we finally got Jungle Zyra.

ErulusMar 16, 20187 votes

Has Riot ever considered creating more AP Bruiser items? Currently it seems like Nashors and even Lich Bane are the only items. Asking in reference to Diana. Any thoughts on her would be appreciated. She's a bruiser not an assassin, so why add to burst instead of longevity?

ViscâMar 16, 20187 votes

Meddler any buffs for Edge of Night? because this item should be good choice instead of Duskblade if u buff with good way like +60 65 ad +300 HP it can be good for 3100 gold item.

N0rth WindMar 16, 20186 votes

Are there any considerations about a slight change in direction on the LB rework? Namely, to counteract her complete loss of the ability to actually deceive people, instead of Diana-ing them?

RiotMeddlerMar 16, 201814 votes

Probably not. I think our desire to make LB more of an illusionist/deceiver was what created a lot of the problems with the previous update. Thematically that's a strong match for LB's character, in terms of what gameplay players liked about LB up to that point it was a secondary note though. There's some of it on the mindgames around the W and the use of the clone passive, but LB's historically been about a combination of windows of burst, mobility/slipperiness and dexterity I'd argue. If she was a brand new character would certainly want much stronger alignment between theme and gameplay. Cost of trying to get that here's been too high though.

I am RazgrizMar 16, 20189 votes

If you asked me I'd say you guys didn't commit enough. You split too hard and being an Assassin was never in Leblanc's lore, just being a deceiver and vaguely a mage. You should really kill the Assassin identity entirely, it's why she's always toxic. Previous iteration, current one, and now you're going back to the previous iteration. Just take your Assassin ideas and put them on a new champ.

HäxelMar 16, 201814 votes

than every lb main will hate that. Thats what meddler said with "if she was a brand new character". new like zoe or ornn or kai'sa would be ok. They already killed lbs assassin identy with current lb. Current lb just a wavelcear mage. And the big, big majority hates that. Even siv hd who is all about decieving hated it. He used the passive clone like a shaco clone and walked with it around. Current lb just has ki controled clones. And also lb not having chances of many combos like a ryze but slower, instead of a fast combo assassin was painful too. Deciever you could try again on a shaco rework but here could the maisn hate again too.

GixiaMar 16, 20182 votes

That's really disappointing. I actually liked the new LB, and if anything I wish it had gone even further in that direction of making her more deceptive and mind-gamey instead. Afterall, you're reverting back to her previous identity, but part of why she got reworked in the assassin update to begin with was because her previous identity was terrible, not just thematically but also from a game balance standpoint. Going back to that may incur less problems in the short term, but long term she's still going to have all the same problems she had before that triggered a rework in the first place.

Blazing EveMar 17, 20183 votes

Yes it's really deceptive to know you're marked and you'll get blown up when that mark detonates 1.5seconds later, it's also very deceptive to know she can't max her w anymore so she has 18s cd entire laning phase, it's also very deceptive to see her glowing purple when she activated R and was about to use it instead of using it with a single button press, god damn all this deception, how are people even playing around it O:

Her previous identity wasn't by any means terrible, she's one of league's most unique champions, she was considered unhealthy because her burst was point and click unavoidable dmg on a short cooldown and people had problems pressing buttons to play around it, not because her identity was terrible. She was legitimately one of the only pro-viable assassins left in the game.

Thematically she remained the same, not sure what are you even talking about here.

She'll have far less problems next to champions like Zoe in the game.

i cant move wtfMar 17, 20187 votes

I don't think it's fair to blame the failure solely on existing player's preference for the old style of gameplay. Was there some of that? Sure. But as someone who played a lot of LB in S6 and would have considered her my favorite champ at the time, I was looking forward to the rework. In my mind there were a million ways she could have been improved to make her more deceptive and complex, even if that meant toning down her oneshotting. I just think the ultimate design that was chosen was bad and naive. The tools of "deception", namely her RR clone, were only useful for warding/scouting and body blocking. Deception-wise it was a downgrade to her old passive. Then the unnecessary reduction in her tempo by gating everything she does by 1.5s felt completely uncreative, unthematic and just plain lazy. Then the unnecessary decision to make existing LB players have to form completely new muscle memory to play this worse version.. disrespectful. It ultimately felt like it was designed by someone who didn't play LB at all, didn't understand what players already liked/were used to, and frankly just disliked the champion.

In summary, the new "strengths" she was given didn't at all justify the sacrifices that had to be made on the part of LB players. She couldn't get an activatable RR clone without making mimic 2 button presses? Really? The clone couldn't be designed in a way that it would actually be useful for deception (and not warding) against competent players? The burst in her delay couldn't be implemented in any way other than a bland 1.5s wait time? Lazy, unimaginative, disrespectful design.

Frozen DivaMar 16, 20186 votes

Hi Meddler. Why don't you list Lissandra? I thought you guys are working on some changes for her.

RiotMeddlerMar 16, 20189 votes

We are, they probably won't be in 8.7 though and it doesn't make sense to list every champion we've talked about work for every single post just to say 'nothing new to report yet'.

ƒrostγMar 16, 20188 votes

{quoted}

We are, they probably won't be in 8.7 though and it doesn't make sense to list every champion we've talked about work for every single post just to say 'nothing new to report yet'.

Yeah. but this has been going on for years. As I remember you guys wanted to change her passive ever since her release but for some reason the project was always canceled/ delayed. I can understand why players are frustrated at this point.

Tarte aux FruitsMar 16, 20186 votes

Hi meddler, for Kayn, did you ever thought of giving the heal of Rhaast's ultimate even though the target dies before you can recast your R ? It manly punishes you for having a team that doesn't know the mechanic, and feels unfair. Thanks.

fdgfdhfdshMar 16, 20186 votes

Hi Meddler. Any plans for Ashe?

RiotRiot MapleNectarMar 16, 20184 votes

Nothing at present. Was there something in particular you had in mind?

AdalvarMar 16, 201813 votes

Maybe make her Q a full AA reset again? It feels very bad in it's current state.

RenanReinMar 16, 20185 votes

THIS! THIS! PLEASE FOR GOD SAKE! And if you guys could increase the Q duration back to 5 seconds, it would be great!

Tip TopMar 16, 20187 votes

Ashe feels weird to play if you could make her q less clunky it would be great!

Chromatic EagleMar 16, 20181 votes

Define clunky.

TomiMan7Mar 16, 20183 votes

takes too much time to even be able to use...4 AA to get enough ranger focus. 90% of the time you are dead before you can use it.

Hyrum GraffMar 16, 20185 votes

Can you please consider allowing ranger's focus to stack at level 1 regardless of which ability Ashe skills up? I hate that W start means I'm completely locked out of a level 2 all in.

Malicious MetalMar 16, 20185 votes

Anything in store for Nautilus? He doesn't really see that much play anymore and struggles to compete against other tanks.

His niche of THE CC monster got overtaken by so many new champion releases anyways so I think he should get a new, more clearly defined gameplay fantasy.

NinjakoMar 16, 20185 votes

Hi @Meddler

Have you guys disccused the changes from 7.12 on Rumble and it's current heavy impact on his laning/early game ? Experimenting the reverts ? Will W be looked at also?

Pokemonred200Mar 16, 20184 votes

Any updates to unsealed spellbook? I remember you saying a while ago that Unsealed Spellbook was being changed to bring back older summoner spells (such as Clarity), although nothing has been said about it recently. Is this still on the table? I really miss using Clarity on Summoner's Rift especially, and Clairvoyance and Revive would be pretty fun to see too.

Yorushika FanboyMar 17, 20184 votes

Why doesn't taste of blood have the same cooldown indicator as manaflow band or bone plating?

jadelinkMar 18, 20184 votes

Concerning Tabi;

I don't think it's that they are too strong, the problem is that the alternate choices, particularly Mercs treads feel AWFUL to buy.

Tenacity is a garbage stat these days, as nearly all CC possessed by meta champions is knockup/knockback/suppress. Without real value from tenacity Mercs are a noob trap, offering very low value vs magic damage for the cost. The only time I really want them is vs a veigar (to avoid the CC-meteor combo).

Likewise swifties have felt bad ever since the 'way back when' nerfs, but at least they actually give more CC reduction in a typical game than mercs do.

Sorcs and Bezerkers feel Ok on their core users, but ADC burst (especially at 1200 range, through the tank, via Rapidfire + Shiv) has become excessive as you have mentioned, and 2 item adc damage (or 1 if its a rageblade user), is so powerful that people feel forced into tabi. Rageblade is a particular offender with the extra on hits pushing Tabi into the space of 'the only real defense I can afford' position. Rageblade REALLY needs to lose the on hit bonus's, it's hard enough as it is to itemise vs a phys/magic damage 1 item hybrid, without having it possess extra on hit damage. Tabi is the last ditch desperate option to stop a kogmaw or a varus from shredding you as a tank when they have only 1 item.

Nerfing tabi is not going to address the core issue of adc damage and rageblade, or of Tenacity having fading value in the modern meta and thus of Mercs being a great s2 item and a garbage s8 one. I really think the Merc/tenacity weakness and the strength of 2 item adcs and rageblade are the real issues affecting boot choices, rather than Tabi's being OP.

Teemo the OrangeMar 16, 20183 votes

dear meddler are we able to see old shen ? this current one doesn't felt like a ninja since you guys accepting your mistakes one by one so lets bring him back. whoever talk on online or different league forums/chat rooms when someone talk about shen everyone agree to say "i miss him so badly"

AkeneroMar 16, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Teemo the Orange,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=YJ096TqY,comment-id=001f,timestamp=2018-03-16T16:00:36.781+0000)

dear meddler are we able to see old shen ? this current one doesn't felt like a ninja since you guys accepting your mistakes one by one so lets bring him back. whoever talk on online or different league forums/chat rooms when someone talk about shen everyone agree to say "i miss him so badly"

he never REALLY felt like a ninja before, let's be honest.

waiting for WoWMar 16, 20181 votes

"Numbers tuning on some other runes that are just not balanced well enough (e.g. Approach Velocity is weak, Celerity is strong etc"

Does this mean Riot will shift the power back into Phase Rush if Celerity gets nerfed? Phase Rush is already awful and just straight up nerfing Celerity is a big hit to Phase Rush users specifically.

RiotMeddlerMar 16, 20187 votes

Planning to buff Phase Rush at some point yeah. It didn't make the cutoff for 8.7 planning though (too far down the list versus other work).

Sun Wu RyuumokuMar 16, 20182 votes

buff or changes ?

RiotMeddlerMar 16, 20184 votes

Potentially both? Might look at how it's triggered, might just make it stronger.

PlusmineMar 16, 20181 votes

What are your thoughts about Presence of Mind? I agree it can be too strong on some champions, but I'm not sure about the goals here.

Last PBE cycle we saw a "20% max mana regeneration" iteration, the same one that got removed from Morello and currently no item has.

RiotMeddlerMar 16, 20185 votes

Something like the old Morello passive is likely, from memory paired with another effect (we were previously trying some XP on takedown as well, I think right now reduced ult CD is being tested instead).

Ashen RiderMar 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Something like the old Morello passive is likely, from memory paired with another effect (we were previously trying some XP on takedown as well, I think right now reduced ult CD is being tested instead).

Doesn't that encroach into the design space of Ultimate Hat?

RiotMeddlerMar 16, 20184 votes

Ult CD as in partial reset (X% off time till your next cast). Not permanent ult affecting CDR.

Mr PenguinMar 16, 20181 votes

I think the best nerf for Swain would be a revert for his Q CD buff from this patch, maybe sth like this: 8/6/4/2, instead of the current 5.5 / 4.75 / 4 / 3.25 / 2.5 . Maybe also a nerf for his ultimate early HP gain and buff for later? Since it feels weak when a Tristana starts doing 3-4 autos and 600 crit each one.. 100/200/500?

RiotMeddlerMar 16, 20186 votes

First thing we're testing is just putting the Q CD back to 7.5-2.5, see if that was just unneeded as a change. Will consider more significant adjustments if that doesn't hit the mark.

Jackom1Mar 16, 20181 votes

Since Irelia was teased today, and you'already talking about mid-season, is aatrox's update coming after that? Or might he actually make it before/with mid-season?

RiotMeddlerMar 16, 20189 votes

Definitely sometime post mid-season.