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Some follow up marksmen thoughts

RiotMeddler·2/10/2017, 6:44:00 PM·1 votes·105,159 views

Hi folks,

Figured it'd be good to touch base on our thoughts on Marksmen again after talking about them at the start of the year.

Things that have changed since then:

  • Jungler influence is down due to nerfs to XP and other systems. We increased jungler influence unintentionally in the pre-season and have been reducing it to around previous levels since.
  • Courage of the Colossus is significantly weaker, reining back champions that utilized it especially well in particular. Combination of that and jungle stuff above's restored agency to a range of positions/champs, marksmen included.
  • Lethality's been buffed since it wasn't serving the needs of a range of physical damage dealers from multiple classes. That's given caster and early game marksmen itemization to better serve their needs and we're seeing a lot of success from them (and other lethality users) now as a result (too much so in some cases).
  • We've made some changes to individual marksmen where appropriate (Draven, Kalista, Lucian, Trist etc).

Current thoughts:

  • Utility marksmen (e.g. Ashe) seem to be in a reasonable spot. Caster/early game marksmen (e.g. MF) are performing strongly too, too well in some cases. Crit using marksmen (late game AA focused) however may need further item work (not straight buffs, but adjustments to who they're strong/weak against when).
  • Armor pen needs some followup changes after the Lethality buffs. Some of that's Black Cleaver being too broadly appealing, leading to some excessive strength sometimes when combined with Lethality. We'll be shifting BC to a higher health/lower AD profile as a result. Longer term (mid season potentially) we'll also likely take a larger look at the different armor pen types. As a stop gap before that we're testing Last Whisper (the component of Lord Dominick's and Mortal Reminder) having the same % pen as those upgrades, but less AD as a safety valve against mid game armor stacking. plus a reduction in the Lethality from Ghostblade and Masteries.
  • We'll also probably be nerfing some individual marksmen in the near future. Corki and Jhin are the most likely candidates.
  • We'll be making changes to Fervor and Warlord's. Warlord's being an effective default choice leads to a situation where you either take the thing that lets you not lose lane or the thing that lets you be appropriately effective later in the game IF you didn't get crushed too much in lane in the first place. We want Warlord's to be more niche as a result.
  • We're not seeing other classes edge marksmen out of bot lane. So far Ziggs is the only mage getting meaningful play as a farming bot laner and, while he looks a bit strong, we're still happy with his presence there. Long term we'll likely look at whether there are a couple of other mages we could get into bot lane in a similar way (tower taking power's probably some of the answer there)

299 Comments

RlP K0BE2/10/2017, 6:49:23 PM15 votes

Hi Meddler,

Since the topic's on Marksemen, are there any changes in line for Kindred in the future?

Meep Man2/10/2017, 9:43:29 PM7 votes

TL;DR Version:

  • Crit Marksman need some work (not buffs/nerfs, WORK)
  • Armor Penetration changes, such as Black Cleaver becoming more favorable to Bruisers and Last Whisper having reduced AD for more Armor Shred
  • More Armor Penetration changes in Tank Update most likely
  • Corki and Jhin nerfs most likely coming
  • Warlord's should be more niche
  • Ziggs is a healthy Bottom Lane choice, although slightly too strong (good to have him there even if he is a little too strong currently)
  • Potentially looking for more Mages to get into Bottom Lane through tower taking power
Good Girl Melody2/10/2017, 9:31:50 PM7 votes

Mr. Meddler, how do you feel about Sivir currently?

Twitch Chat2/10/2017, 8:40:34 PM6 votes

On the topic of crit marksmen I don't really like how much you're incentivized to go double zeal item. 2 item spike doesn't feel impactful enough and it feels like too much of a trade off to go for a life steal or defensive item. Lethality builds have a big advantage right off the bat because they have a strong defensive option at the second item in their build path.

VieldWolf2/10/2017, 9:34:38 PM5 votes

We'll also probably be nerfing some individual marksmen in the near future. Corki and Jhin are the most likely candidates.

Can ADCs, just for once, see buffs instead of nerfs? Ever since the Marksman rework, ADCs have constantly been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed. That's the reason we're almost only seeing Utility ADCs being played DESPITE the fact that first blood tower should encourage choosing lane bullies over utility carries. Where's Lucian? Why does Caitlyn get outperformed by Ashe and Varus?

Lùmen2/10/2017, 9:59:19 PM5 votes

I don't think marksmen should get to use lethality. Corki nerfs? Reasonable. Jhin nerfs? Just like Camille's Q with the whole psychological effect to due how 'spiky' the damage is. He's overperforming with lethality, his kit will be nerfed, lethality will eventually be nerfed and as a result, Jhin will be left unplayable I assume..

DJ Lucio2/10/2017, 7:34:39 PM3 votes

What are your plans for Jhin currently?

Is there any future plans for Lucian? I still feel he's very weak and isn't being as strong a bully in-lane as he should be.

dragonboytsubasa2/11/2017, 1:57:40 AM3 votes

{quoted}

We'll also probably be nerfing some individual marksmen in the near future. Corki and Jhin are the most likely candidates.

For Jhin we've been testing a nerf to the ult slow (shorter duration or decaying slow) to reduce his ability to nuke down squishies with just his ult in some circumstances. Also considering reducing damage to minions from his traps to reduce his wave clear. Those aren't locked changes yet though.

omg please no. Jhin needs that slow on his ult if he wants to keep hitting things, otherwise he has to rely on teammates to lock down targets. The slow's not even that long either, and roughly the same as the interval between bullets fired (if not shorter) so why nerf the duration?

The Yetii Rider2/10/2017, 8:57:59 PM2 votes

If Warlord's is unhealthy when it's strong then why keep it even as a niche? Shouldn't every Keystone be viable on some champions all the time? If Warlords is creating problems and is too general it should be replaced like SotA was, right?

jeremiahBIO2/11/2017, 4:46:05 AM2 votes

Hi meddler, I appreciate you making this. Just a quick question: I know she recently got a buff, but how do you feel about trist? She's been in a "meh" spot for a while.

Solidair32/10/2017, 11:09:35 PM1 votes

Meddler, I know this isn't the place for this but: What's the deal with supports after your experiment? More mages are being played in the support role recently, and I'm wondering if you guys are still working on support and making it have greater broad appeal.

Thanks for your time.

Rude Name2/11/2017, 6:28:12 AM1 votes

Mr Meddler! Mr Meddler! Over here, Sir! This is a deviation from marksmen, but I believe you are able to answer this. I've heard the Aurelion 'rework' was scrapped, but does this mean he will not be getting worked on?