Some follow up marksmen thoughts

RiotMeddler·Feb 10, 2017·1 votes·105,159 views

Hi folks,

Figured it'd be good to touch base on our thoughts on Marksmen again after talking about them at the start of the year.

Things that have changed since then:

Jungler influence is down due to nerfs to XP and other systems. We increased jungler influence unintentionally in the pre-season and have been reducing it to around previous levels since.
Courage of the Colossus is significantly weaker, reining back champions that utilized it especially well in particular. Combination of that and jungle stuff above's restored agency to a range of positions/champs, marksmen included.
Lethality's been buffed since it wasn't serving the needs of a range of physical damage dealers from multiple classes. That's given caster and early game marksmen itemization to better serve their needs and we're seeing a lot of success from them (and other lethality users) now as a result (too much so in some cases).
We've made some changes to individual marksmen where appropriate (Draven, Kalista, Lucian, Trist etc).

Current thoughts:

Utility marksmen (e.g. Ashe) seem to be in a reasonable spot. Caster/early game marksmen (e.g. MF) are performing strongly too, too well in some cases. Crit using marksmen (late game AA focused) however may need further item work (not straight buffs, but adjustments to who they're strong/weak against when).
Armor pen needs some followup changes after the Lethality buffs. Some of that's Black Cleaver being too broadly appealing, leading to some excessive strength sometimes when combined with Lethality. We'll be shifting BC to a higher health/lower AD profile as a result. Longer term (mid season potentially) we'll also likely take a larger look at the different armor pen types. As a stop gap before that we're testing Last Whisper (the component of Lord Dominick's and Mortal Reminder) having the same % pen as those upgrades, but less AD as a safety valve against mid game armor stacking. plus a reduction in the Lethality from Ghostblade and Masteries.
We'll also probably be nerfing some individual marksmen in the near future. Corki and Jhin are the most likely candidates.
We'll be making changes to Fervor and Warlord's. Warlord's being an effective default choice leads to a situation where you either take the thing that lets you not lose lane or the thing that lets you be appropriately effective later in the game IF you didn't get crushed too much in lane in the first place. We want Warlord's to be more niche as a result.
We're not seeing other classes edge marksmen out of bot lane. So far Ziggs is the only mage getting meaningful play as a farming bot laner and, while he looks a bit strong, we're still happy with his presence there. Long term we'll likely look at whether there are a couple of other mages we could get into bot lane in a similar way (tower taking power's probably some of the answer there)

299 Comments

RlP K0BEFeb 10, 201715 votes

Hi Meddler,

Since the topic's on Marksemen, are there any changes in line for Kindred in the future?

RiotMeddlerFeb 10, 201732 votes

We'll probably make it so the first mark spawns on a Scuttle crab consistently, rather than sometimes on Raptors, given how hard that camp is now for them to deal with. Was a problem case someone called out on Boards the other day that looks like an example of bad RNG (low room for adaptability, little cross team fairness, feeling of 'get screwed'.

Beyond that not at present. Some interest in looking at their scaling/power curve once we've got the mid-season stuff figured out, nothing concrete nailed down though.

taleofsonataFeb 10, 20179 votes

How about giving back Azir W on Tower?

RiotMeddlerFeb 10, 201724 votes

We took Azir's tower W away because he's got too many different strengths on his kit. Something like that might make sense on another mage, Azir's not the right candidate though.

SpideraxeFeb 10, 20173 votes

Speaking of Azir, any word of his Shyvana scope rework plans?

RiotMeddlerFeb 10, 201710 votes

Probably sometime this year, would expect second half. He's probably the champ who'll get the most value from it, but he's also the champ who'll probably be the biggest job by a large margin so we're getting some low cost+medium value ones done first.

KalístaFeb 10, 20174 votes

Do you have any idea when a Shyvana-scope rework is planned for Kalista?

VarphFeb 10, 20173 votes

{quoted}

We took Azir's tower W away because he's got too many different strengths on his kit. Something like that might make sense on another mage, Azir's not the right candidate though.

Ziggs isn't either, why do champions with such powerful pushing/tower taking already get extra gimmicks to take towers? Ziggs is that champ where if you even recall you can look to lose your tower by the time you get back. Stop giving mages tower taking spells especially if the mage is already better than average at taking them in the first place(Ziggs/Azir)

RedesignatedFeb 11, 20177 votes

Except it makes total sense thematically for Ziggs, and it also makes him the primary turret pressure mage, which is a niche that can definitely exist. Azir, meanwhile, not only had turret pressure, but also pretty much did everything else under the sun (and moon, and most other celestial bodies).

Push out your lane before you recall; Ziggs has massive mana drain if he tries to consistently push his wave early on, and he's easily punishable because of it. It takes him a lot longer to reach a viable pool of mana for pushing than other mages.

Good Girl MelodyFeb 10, 20177 votes

Mr. Meddler, how do you feel about Sivir currently?

Meep ManFeb 10, 20177 votes

TL;DR Version:

Crit Marksman need some work (not buffs/nerfs, WORK)
Armor Penetration changes, such as Black Cleaver becoming more favorable to Bruisers and Last Whisper having reduced AD for more Armor Shred
More Armor Penetration changes in Tank Update most likely
Corki and Jhin nerfs most likely coming
Warlord's should be more niche
Ziggs is a healthy Bottom Lane choice, although slightly too strong (good to have him there even if he is a little too strong currently)
Potentially looking for more Mages to get into Bottom Lane through tower taking power

Twitch ChatFeb 10, 20176 votes

On the topic of crit marksmen I don't really like how much you're incentivized to go double zeal item. 2 item spike doesn't feel impactful enough and it feels like too much of a trade off to go for a life steal or defensive item. Lethality builds have a big advantage right off the bat because they have a strong defensive option at the second item in their build path.

AdalvarFeb 10, 20173 votes

^ This

Season 5 ADC rework completely screwed ADC power curves by making them ultra reliant on triple crit items ( item 3508 item 3031 item 3086 ) or ( ) to actually deal damage. Not to say that the class shouldn't be item reliant, but not to this extent, especially compared to other classes and lategame champions who can overtake ADC's. At the same having to commit 3 slots to a stat, stiffens builds and makes it impossible to counter itemize or flex your builds. Not to mention this item 3508 should be a caster item, not a crit item. Crit ADC's should be AA focused, not CDR focused.

At the same time lifesteal based items are in a bad place, being too expensive and the extreme reliance on QSS for ADC's to avoid engages.

Lethality is a early game spike as it should, but it shouldn't give that advantage for the massive window of time it currently does.

OblivianosFeb 14, 20171 votes

ER was remade for caster adc like lucian so they can build crit which helps them not fall off and get cdr which as caster adc they also needed a lot. They even said that they had designated it as lucian's core 1st item

AryoxFeb 15, 20172 votes

Thing is it was meta for what? A couple patches and then the korean build with Youmuu's and Black Cleaver became meta on him. So as much as they wanted it as his first core item, it's not that great as a first item. This became even more apparent once the whole "ADC in 2017" meme started because Essence Reaver is not a big enough power spike for him to keep up to the game nor for bullying in lane. I've had more success going either death's dance because of the heal on ALL physical dmg or Infinity Edge into Zeal item and then whatever else the game calls for.

AdalvarFeb 16, 20171 votes

^ This.

Essence Reaver was a missguided attempt to connect two opposite types of play. Casters are early to mid game due to their already existing base damages. Thus they scale better with high AD, Lethality and CDR, which is found on relatively cheap items and gives you strong intial damage spikes. On the other hand crit requires heavy item investment with attack speed, crit chance and item 3031 . A longer time investment, but once complete you will overtake others DPS wise.

Lucian was designed to shine in the early to mid game as hybrid style caster, but consistent nerfs made that culminated on the removal of the AD scaling of his W and subsequent mini-rework created an imbalance in Lucian's general power level, because he has one nigh-useless ability, with the rest of hit kit being overloaded to compensate for the void. That and the fact that he lacks a defined fantasy compare to other ADC's.

So overall yeah. Reaver failed it's function in a miserable way.

OblivianosFeb 16, 20171 votes

do you think if lucian's skills could crit with a modifier to avoid being broken would be a good way to buff his crit build? what sucks most imo in crit builds is the build path. especially for lucian . ghostblade has such an easy build path. you can pick something up every 350-400g which is around 10-15 creeps(correct my math)

AryoxFeb 16, 20172 votes

The whole problem with the crit build, and this extends beyond Lucian is the relative inflexibility of the build path. If you're going crit, you MUST get 50-80% crit chance to have any relevance in damage so you're locked into Infinity Edge into double Zeal items, Essence Reaver into Zeal into IE or simply IE into one Zeal item. All three of these builds require the 3600g for IE and ~2600g for one zeal item or 5200g for both, ER itself is also 3600g.

Based on that the three builds cost 8800g, 9800g and 6200g respectively which even with perfect farm (super rare, not even pros have perfect farm) takes quite some time to complete and doesn't take into factor all other minor purchases like potions, control wards and certain piece items for game situation (Last Whisper, Hexdrinker, Vampiric Scepter and Quicksilver Sash). All in all, this makes for a very time and gold consuming build which lacks in early and mid game noticeable power at a time where other positions builds are relatively cheaper and so are farther ahead.

However people have found away around this with Lethality builds which while already cheaper at full build, their components are also much cheaper as you've said yourself 300-500g for each component and 700-850g for the full items at combine cost. So not only are they more accessible, but the power spikes are quicker and the full tem spike is much easily attained. Another thing is the versatility of the Lethality items, each one has a unique passive which grants it's builder more utility than a crit build would.

It makes no sense then to build crit on anyone other than a few who do better because they are more attack speed reliant (Ashe - There have been a couple Crit/Lethality hybrid builds, Vayne - her w passive is her lethality, Trist, Kalista, Twitch - can build as assassin but needs AS and Jinx)

Coming back to Lucian though, as much as providing a crit modifier on his abilities might help it further destroys his identity as a lane bully and in your face marksman. Lucian needs high dmg and survivability because of his lack of range both on his AA's and Ult. The crit build provides damage that scales but isn't strong when Lucian as a champ is strong (EARLY GAME and LANING PHASE). On top of that, the survivability aspect has to be left till much later or else he doesn't output the damage needed so you're forced to either do damage and be really squishy while having no range or being able to survive in close quarters but not have enough damage to burst even a squishy.

VieldWolfFeb 10, 20175 votes

We'll also probably be nerfing some individual marksmen in the near future. Corki and Jhin are the most likely candidates.

Can ADCs, just for once, see buffs instead of nerfs? Ever since the Marksman rework, ADCs have constantly been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed. That's the reason we're almost only seeing Utility ADCs being played DESPITE the fact that first blood tower should encourage choosing lane bullies over utility carries. Where's Lucian? Why does Caitlyn get outperformed by Ashe and Varus?

KouènFeb 11, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Can ADCs, just for once, see buffs instead of nerfs? Ever since the Marksman rework, ADCs have constantly been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed. That's the reason we're almost only seeing Utility ADCs being played DESPITE the fact that first blood tower should encourage choosing lane bullies over utility carries. Where's Lucian? Why does Caitlyn get outperformed by Ashe and Varus?

Lucian was broken for a whole season. Calm down..

LùmenFeb 10, 20175 votes

I don't think marksmen should get to use lethality. Corki nerfs? Reasonable. Jhin nerfs? Just like Camille's Q with the whole psychological effect to due how 'spiky' the damage is. He's overperforming with lethality, his kit will be nerfed, lethality will eventually be nerfed and as a result, Jhin will be left unplayable I assume..

DJ LucioFeb 10, 20173 votes

What are your plans for Jhin currently?

Is there any future plans for Lucian? I still feel he's very weak and isn't being as strong a bully in-lane as he should be.

RiotMeddlerFeb 10, 201719 votes

For Jhin we've been testing a nerf to the ult slow (shorter duration or decaying slow) to reduce his ability to nuke down squishies with just his ult in some circumstances. Also considering reducing damage to minions from his traps to reduce his wave clear. Those aren't locked changes yet though.

For Lucian we'll want to see the impact of Warlord's and Fervor changes before assessing him again, since he's likely to be one of the more affected champs by those.

CPT CAPSLOKFeb 10, 20174 votes

What do you think about Varus? He seems to be at least as strong as Jhin

KyunseiFeb 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

For Jhin we've been testing a nerf to the ult slow (shorter duration or decaying slow) to reduce his ability to nuke down squishies with just his ult in some circumstances. Also considering reducing damage to minions from his traps to reduce his wave clear. Those aren't locked changes yet though.

For Lucian we'll want to see the impact of Warlord's and Fervor changes before assessing him again, since he's likely to be one of the more affected champs by those.

Can we expect those Fervor changes in patch 7.4 ?

RiotMeddlerFeb 10, 20178 votes

Probably.

KyunseiFeb 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Probably.

Oh, that's nice to read, thanks you.

AirKingNeoFeb 11, 20172 votes

Wait I don't see any Fervor / Warlords changes on the PBE. I assume they're in the works for a later PBE update? Any information?

Valor BotFeb 10, 20175 votes

Speaking of Lucian, how do you feel about him in regards to strategic identity? He doesn't really seem to have a distinct/unique niche as a Marksman aside from "duelist," which other Marksmen can arguably do better (i.e. Quinn, Vayne). Could be a reason why he's struggling.

RiotMeddlerFeb 10, 201711 votes

I'd agree he's too generalist. Early game bully who's short ish ranged but mobile is part of the identity he should have I think so we've got a decent start at least. Would be nice to see him bring something unique to a team as well though.

GarlicFriesFeb 15, 20172 votes

I'd love to see a "team fight clean-up" focused marksman. Jinx/Trist do this fine in the late-game, but there's not a mid-game, skirmishing one.

I think increased power based on "nearby ally % HP missing" would be super interesting. It's also thematic since he's a vengeance-driven character. Perhaps his dash cooldown is lowered significantly for every ally within 1k~ range under 10% HP? Kinda like Kindred's hop in gameplay flow.

LeonerdoFeb 10, 20172 votes

I think Jhin's E is already pretty weak. Some people don't even put the first point into it until lvl 8 or even later.

DraclenFeb 13, 20172 votes

Do you feel that Jhin (and other Marksmen for that matter) building Lethality is the direction the team would like to take him? I personally think promoting ADCs to build large amounts of an Assassin oriented stat might not be the best idea.

dragonboytsubasaFeb 11, 20173 votes

{quoted}

We'll also probably be nerfing some individual marksmen in the near future. Corki and Jhin are the most likely candidates.

For Jhin we've been testing a nerf to the ult slow (shorter duration or decaying slow) to reduce his ability to nuke down squishies with just his ult in some circumstances. Also considering reducing damage to minions from his traps to reduce his wave clear. Those aren't locked changes yet though.

omg please no. Jhin needs that slow on his ult if he wants to keep hitting things, otherwise he has to rely on teammates to lock down targets. The slow's not even that long either, and roughly the same as the interval between bullets fired (if not shorter) so why nerf the duration?

Zero Skill TankFeb 11, 20178 votes

otherwise he has to rely on teammates to lock down targets

How is this a bad thing?

HellioningFeb 11, 20179 votes

Somehow, Xerath manages to hit things without a slow on his ult.

The Yetii RiderFeb 10, 20172 votes

If Warlord's is unhealthy when it's strong then why keep it even as a niche? Shouldn't every Keystone be viable on some champions all the time? If Warlords is creating problems and is too general it should be replaced like SotA was, right?

RiotMeddlerFeb 10, 20175 votes

Longer term (not next patch anyway) we'll want to make more foundational changes to Warlord's to do exactly that. Window its sustain is the most likely option we've been kicking around (only works at all below X% health, or triggers but has a CD or other similar mechanics).

La BelloFeb 10, 20177 votes

I think your pretty spot on in your assessment of Marksmen.The weak links of marksmen right now are the ones based around critical strike not being able to spike early enough to be relevant and subsequently getting steamrolled, losing the arms race and never having the power to fight back until its far too late for them and thier team. I think creating some Basic, Advanced or Legendary Items that grant crit chance could help to solve their power spiking issues without having to cheapen their build as a whole.

HOWEVER another thing that i think the marksman class could use is some fine re-tuning on specific characters and by that I mean KogMaw Tristana Vayne Kalista could all use some mini-reworks or adjustments.

KogMaw had his 5.0 AS removed and nothing being added in its place. In other words Kog was more or less " taken back to square 1", a failed experiment that was subsequently abandoned.

Vayne still ridiculously effective against everything rather than being a niche pick against certain comps . The great thing about Vayne however is that she can completely be fixed without changing her core gameplay style.All her problems lie in her modifiers and massive steroids rather than her gameplay.

Kalista way too reliant on her support for her power now. Kalista NEEDS to be more self sufficient as all carries should. You do NOT want Supports and Marksmen to be utterly bound to one another like conjoined twins every game as this will create an ample amount of class problems between the two (not to mention community problems such as the already pre-existing entitlement factors). SUPPORTS and MARKSMEN need to justify themselves with their own kits. You do not want supports to just be force multipliers and you do not want Marksmen to just be stat sticks that are empowered when near supports.

vies with way too many other carries and ends up exceeding at nothing. Very Often out ranged ,out damaged by other marksmen and Tristana simply doesn't bring enough to the table to validate her being picked especially when towers melt in the lategame anyway which is simultaneously when she most often comes "online". I recommend transitioning her back into a anti-personnel champion rather than an anti-structure champion.

And this is just a personal gripe here and not really a problem at all but I also don't like current Jinx . I find the disparity between Jinx ingame and Jinx in lore/cinematic harrowing.

Jinx is considered a "quintessential hyper carry" but I don't think any carry should be quintessential. every carry should be a tailored choice and have their correct niches that ensure that you are picking them up for more than just their statistical effectiveness.Not only that but If you're looking for RELIABILITY it feels like JINX should be your absolute last choice!

In lore Jinx is a hyper-active, hard to catch and constantly putting herself in dangerous potentially situations only to escape. However ingame her playstyle consist of a completely monotonous pattern of abusing Fishbones super long range to poke.

In lore Jinx has a thirst for DESTRUCTION not BLOOD. Jinx in lore constantly destroys builds,structures and vandalizes everything but ingame her pushing abilities aren't that grandiose in contrast her teamfighting which seems to be where she truly excels.

I feel as though "Get Excited" is the entire saving grace of Jinx's kit as the rest of Jinxs skills themselves don't stand on their own merits. I would really like to see some changes like allowing SuperMegaDeath Rocket to execute towers or allowing "Get Excited" to build up mid combat (esp against structure) .

Anyways as always keep up the good work Meddler and thanks for being so active and transparent with the community.

ofartFeb 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I think your pretty spot on in your assessment of Marksmen.The weak links of marksmen right now are the ones based around critical strike not being able to spike early enough to be relevant and subsequently getting steamrolled, losing the arms race and never having the power to fight back until its far too late for them and thier team. I think creating some Basic, Advanced or Legendary Items that grant crit chance could help to solve their power spiking issues without having to cheapen their build as a whole.

HOWEVER another thing that i think the marksman class could use is some fine re-tuning on specific characters and by that I mean could all use some mini-reworks or adjustments.

had his 5.0 AS removed and nothing being added in its place. In other words Kog was more or less " taken back to square 1", a failed experiment that was subsequently abandoned.

still ridiculously effective against everything rather than being a niche pick against certain comps . The great thing about Vayne however is that she can completely be fixed without changing her core gameplay style.All her problems lie in her modifiers and massive steroids rather than her gameplay.

way too reliant on her support for her power now. Kalista NEEDS to be more self sufficient as all carries should. You do NOT want Supports and Marksmen to be utterly bound to one another like conjoined twins every game as this will create an ample amount of class problems between the two (not to mention community problems such as the already pre-existing entitlement factors). SUPPORTS and MARKSMEN need to justify themselves with their own kits. You do not want supports to just be force multipliers and you do not want Marksmen to just be stat sticks that are empowered when near supports.

vies with way to many other carries and ends up exceeding at nothing. Very Often out ranged ,out damaged by other marksmen and Tristana simply doesn't bring enough to the table to validate her being picked especially when towers melt in the lategame anyway which is simultaneously when she most often comes "online". I recommend transitioning her back into a anti-personnel champion rather than an anti-structure champion.

And this is just a personal gripe here and not really a problem at all but I also don't like current .I find the disparity between Jinx ingame and Jinx in lore/cinematic harrowing.

Jinx is considered a "quintessential hyper carry" but I dont think any carry should be quintessential. every carry should be a tailored choice and have their correct niches that ensure that you are picking them up for more than just their statistical effectiveness. If your looking RELIABILITY it feels like JINX should be your absolute last choice!

In lore Jinx is a hyper-active, hard to catch and constantly putting herself in dangerous potentially situations only to escape. However ingame her playstyle consist of a completely monotonous pattern of abusing Fishbones super long range to poke.

In lore Jinx has a thirst for DESTRUCTION not BLOOD. Jinx in lore constantly destroys builds,structures and vandalizes everything but ingame her pushing abilities aren't that grandiose in contrast her teamfighting seems to be where she truly excels.

I honestly "Get Excited" is the entire saving grace of Jinx's kit and that the rest of Jinxs skills themselves don't stand on their own merits. I would really like to see some changes like allowing SuperMegaDeath Rocket to execute towers or allowing "Get Excited" to build up mid combat (esp against structure) .

Anyways keep up the good work Meddler and thanks for being so active and transparent with the community.

Kog will do well with the new BoRK as ADC. APC was ruined for no reason though. He was nerfed just because they don't like his style, not because he was OP in any way. I am still very salty about that.

La BelloFeb 13, 20172 votes

I mean its not about power levels. Champion reworks are never just about adding/removing power. The champion reworks are meant to create healthy,distinctive and interesting playstyles. Kog'Maw lost his defining power that came with his rework and now he is going to only see play when Items are abusable on him more or less. Think about everything Kog'Maw does and then contrast that to Corki and ask yourself why you would ever want to be picking up our little void caterpillar(mixed damage to shred tanks? long range poke? Armor/MR shred? a slow? Corki's literally has everything Kog'Maw has).

Marksmen have to bring different tools to the table or else it just becomes a matter of picking up whoever has the best raw stats. Besides Riot has said that first and foremost they want the majority of a characters power to come from their kit not items.If Kog is only able to see play upon the advent of Item changes that should illustrate that he has problems.

toymachineFeb 11, 20176 votes

Any plans on making Warlords work with mages (spell vamp)?

jeremiahBIOFeb 11, 20172 votes

Hi meddler, I appreciate you making this. Just a quick question: I know she recently got a buff, but how do you feel about trist? She's been in a "meh" spot for a while.

RiotMeddlerFeb 11, 20174 votes

I think she needs larger work at some point. The recent buff was just to put her in a better spot until then (she's got issues, but we were confident we wouldn't be creating game health issues by buffing her that much).

HellioningFeb 11, 20175 votes

Shouldn't this have been solved with her last rework?

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 11, 20175 votes

Could she be a candidate for a Shyvana/Rek'sai/Alistar Scope update? I like Tristana, but I don't feel like her issues could only be fixed by number changes.

Solidair3Feb 10, 20171 votes

Meddler, I know this isn't the place for this but: What's the deal with supports after your experiment? More mages are being played in the support role recently, and I'm wondering if you guys are still working on support and making it have greater broad appeal.

Thanks for your time.

RiotMeddlerFeb 10, 20179 votes

We'll have a number of changes coming out gradually over time. Next up are some XP changes in 7.4, should have details of those posted shortly (today or early next week at a guess).

Rude NameFeb 11, 20171 votes

Mr Meddler! Mr Meddler! Over here, Sir! This is a deviation from marksmen, but I believe you are able to answer this. I've heard the Aurelion 'rework' was scrapped, but does this mean he will not be getting worked on?

RiotMeddlerFeb 11, 20175 votes

Possible we might do some smaller changes, far from guaranteed though.