Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 23

RiotMeddler·2/23/2018, 4:43:32 PM·1 votes·85,758 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png


Some more Mastery Curves

Got some requests to show more of these, Singed included, after the first post on them earlier in the week. Some more, with brief comments, below. As a reminder, a flatter curve doesn't necessarily mean that a champion is less skilled since it in part reflects how similar the skills a champion tests are to those tested on other champions. As with the previous set of mastery curves this is based off data from the previous 6 months, so it won't perfectly match current win rates. I've also gone with mastery curves over 100 games this time, which does introduce some messiness into the curves for champs with lower sample sizes at higher game values, but also gives a better impression of how they change with more games played.

https://imgur.com/a/yOAlN

Singed - As mentioned previously has a really steep curve. That reflects how different his playstyle is to other champs in part. There's a lot to learn, even after a lot of games. It's also correlated somewhat though with how, if you're a really dedicated Singed player, you'll end up much better on him than other champions. That means you’ll climb playing Singed and then, when you're playing other champs you'll end up losing more. That drags your MMR down a bit again, potentially increasing your future Singed winrate.

Tanks - A lot of tanks have mastery curves that cap out fairly quickly, given they test game skill in general more than kit specific mechanics. Malphite's a particularly clear example of that, maxing out after ~10-15 games. Alistar's got some more kit specific stuff to him, but still on average maxes out curve wise around 40 games or so mark. Ornn's then a strong contrast with most other tanks, with his curve continuing upwards a bit even after 100 games, reflecting that he's got a lot of different stuff going to to learn. When coupled with how most games on Ornn are by people still very early on in that mastery curve (the grey section below) it means you can end up with a champ with a low average win rate who's still quite strong when played by someone who knows what they're doing.

Marksmen - Marksmen are another class with a lot of overlap between the skills they test, so their curves usually look pretty similar, with a steep early climb that then flattens out a lot. Tristana and Ezreal are good examples. Lucian's an interesting counterpoint in that he's got an initial steep climb, that curves off sooner, but then keeps gradually going up, suggesting there's a lot players pick up really quickly and then some subtleties that even after 100 games keep mattering. Vayne's a stronger contrast again, with a curve that's yet to flatten that much even after 100 games. That's a trend we see on mechanically intensive champions in general too, such as Yasuo (shown here) or other champs like Azir or Kalista.

Minion FPS Bug Fix

We got a fix into 8.3, that we've now verified is working as intended, that fixes a number of FPS dropping/hitching when minions get spawned into the game (lane minions, jungle monsters, player created minions etc). Should have improved performance noticeably for a number of players. Won't fix everything of course, but worth checking out if you've been having problems around those circumstances and haven't played for a bit.

Duskblade Nerfs moving to 8.6

We'll be moving the Duskblade nerfs back to 8.6 so that we've got enough time to also do some compensatory work on champions who might be hit too hard otherwise. Not sure exactly what that compensation will look like yet. Possible (not guaranteed) candidates for buffs below. Most likely case where we don't buff is if a champion already has similar strength with Ghostblade or something else (they're not actually very dependent on Duskblade).

  • Wukong
  • Zed
  • Talon
  • Rengar
  • Quinn
  • Miss Fortune
  • Kayn
  • Kha'Zix

474 Comments

Jatu2/23/2018, 4:53:42 PM77 votes

So Khazix , Rengar and Kayn could possibly get buffs because of item 3147 nerffs but Shaco won't get any?

SlasyMcSlashton2/23/2018, 7:07:44 PM30 votes

I just do not understand why Shaco will not be receiving buffs for compensation of Duskblade changes. Shaco is not strong because of his abilities, but rather he is a classic example of abusing items. Bruiser shaco was abusing item 3078 with item 3748 since that his kit lacked damage overall. then you nerf the only thing that made him viable as a bruiser and now he is reliant on item 3147 due to being over nerfed (Looking at this Q not having any damage on it)

what is your thought process behind not giving Shaco any sort of tweaks or buffs for nerfing his core 1st item

kilI yourself2/23/2018, 6:29:23 PM24 votes

Hey Meddler. What about Shaco ? Shaco's only one way of being an assassin is taking Dark Harvest and rushing item 3147 simply because you guys completely removed his Q damage in season 7, but even with the current pre-nerfed item 3147, you aren't able to kill an adc that simply builds item 3047, compared to other assassins still managing to 100-0 them even though they have item 3047. Shaco's main damage source are items, which means, if you nerf item 3147, you're not only gonna balance other assassins, but also ruin Shaco's damage output (which is actually a joke right now) making him unplayable as an assassin. He needs major changes, as an assassin without any damage coming right from his kit...

Carnicore2/23/2018, 7:42:28 PM24 votes

No compensation for Shaco for the Duskblade nerf? Now you're just being mean.

Poof of Smoke2/23/2018, 5:34:16 PM21 votes

@Meddler Us shaco mains wondering why our favorite assassin isn't being compensated. I will remind people he has no base damage (Or useful scalings tbh) so the duskblade nerf will hit us hard. especially harder than champions like zed and kha'zix who have much better scalings and higher base dmg.

Dolchstoßlegende2/23/2018, 5:15:53 PM19 votes

Haha, it's funny that you forgot to mention Shaco in the compensational buffs section! :-) What a silly mistake, looking forward to seeing it fixed, summoner!

Considering his entire early game damage is purely this backbone item of assassins since his kit doesn't contain a single reliable damage number I'd imagine some reverting on Q from last year.

ShacoNaClMaker2/23/2018, 6:48:10 PM19 votes

Hi Meddler,

So I'll ask the reccouring question about my favorite champ (currently VERY reliant on duskblade to deal with the shield/heal comps). Shaco doesn't appear on your list, why?

He's fallen hard into an item/Dark Harvest dependency loop. If you can't muster some early gold and farm with Tiamat you're likely going to struggle really hard mid game. If you can't farm it out you won't get the Dusk/Shiv/IE early enough in the game to run isolation picks on rotating laners before 5 mans start and your burst starts to get shielded out (a completely different issue in this game at thr moment [you guys need to look at some shield nullifying/transferring items, I have a hextech item and an ohmwrecker rework you should look at])

His E damage feels absolutely terrible (I've seen it fail to kill sub 1hp bar mid and top laners retreating to their tower a lot), I can't convey to you know bad his E really is. Please look at the change to Physical and the removal of % health damage, that really hurt his objective control.

I'd ask that you guys take a look at his boxes. The health changes you made dont take care of random aoe abilities or single autos from late game a dc or bruisers removing both his W and the after effect on R.

Finally, R clone explosion and the triangle is off. R doesnt explode hard enough to even be noticeable anymore and the triangle of boxes he leaves both have no health and no damage. The clones only use right now is duskblade proc and then soaking up a CC spell in a teamfight if you're lucky.

I've heard about a rework on the horizon, I'm really interested in hearing plans. You've got a very dedicated subreddit that I help mod that has tons of feedback which in most cases is actually very balanced and though out RE: assumed strengths and inherent weaknesses.

Hope you get a chance to respond.

LTK KoRo2/23/2018, 4:55:35 PM18 votes

Hello Meddler, can i ask you a question regarding duskblade nerfs and compensation buffs? Will Shaco be buffed in any kind of way? I feel like he works currently only as Duskblade delivery system, unless he goes in AP/Bruiser build. I know his winrate is high right now, but it feels like it's directly linked to current Duskblade.

Monster mode2/23/2018, 5:22:53 PM16 votes

What about Shaco?????????????????????????????????????????

AjnsztajnA062/23/2018, 6:02:32 PM15 votes

Give Ornn's unstoppable back and nerf his damage, this will make him the first tank to have such a "high" skill ceiling

kilI yourself2/24/2018, 3:15:49 PM15 votes

Meddler prob got camped by a Shaco one trick in gold elo and now thinks he needs a nerf item 3147 you will be missed

Cowardly Clown2/23/2018, 7:02:20 PM15 votes

Why aren’t you planning on compensating Shaco for the Duskblade nerf? It’s literally core on every Shaco build (AP, AD, Bruiser, etc). It could be argued he’s strong right now, but then again, so is Kha’Zix.

The Planeswalker2/23/2018, 6:15:12 PM13 votes

Many Shacos rely on duskblade to keep up in damage in the midgame. He's an incredibly item reliant, snowball reliant champ that got all of his base damages and scaling hit back when he was strong. Why isn't he considered for compensation? Trinity feels bad as a 2nd item since it's cost makes shaco even more feast-or-famine while stattik makes his damage awful compared to other assassins.

EZIIO2/24/2018, 11:05:48 AM12 votes

@meddler Haha i think you forgot to inculde Shaco in your list right? you are going to really kill him since his build relies a lot on duskblade

Magic Serwyn2/23/2018, 7:08:12 PM11 votes

You dont plane any buff to shaco to go with duskblade nerf ?

Also any thought on Pantheon state ?

Torturer47492/24/2018, 6:09:54 PM10 votes

[deleted]

kilI yourself2/24/2018, 3:22:06 PM10 votes

https://clips.twitch.tv/OpenTenaciousWaspSSSsss Shaclone on Riot Meddler talking about Shaco

InTheory2/23/2018, 4:48:53 PM10 votes

Hi Meddler,

this is about the current support item changes on PBE.

**For everyone who missed the current changes: **

Unique Passive: Bandit (granting gold upon basic attacking an enemy champion) is removed from all support item lines.

  • Gold income for 2nd and 3rd tier support items increased:
  • Targon’s Brace gold per (10) second(s) increased.
  • Frostfang: Gold for tribute procs increased
  • Nomad’s Medallion Gold per coin picked up increased.
  • However: Killing a minion or monster disables that respective gold generation passive for 12 seconds. This penalty stacks up several (infinite?) times.

Context for these changes is, to reduce the abuse cases in solo lanes without harming or even increasing the effect for supports that play around their "minigame". Live Gameplay felt that the Spoils of War passive was in a good spot and therefore decided to push the gold over time instead.

The problem with that penalty is that in some situations the support is forced to take minions, e.g. when the ally died or backed and they have to defend the turret or freeze the wave. In these cases, the support is being punished for doing something they should do, something that makes sense and is appropriate. This penalty is especially strong on Frostfang:

The passive can be disabled for several minutes depending on how many you had to kill. Frostfang is the only example where its passive proc is not only bind to gold generation, but also combat stats (additional on-hit damage). This can also happen upon engaging a skirmish (or just defending themselves) resulting in killing a minion by accident.

Sintie Pie (PBE) made a really good suggestion for a compromise:

Instead of disabling the respective gold generation, the gold gained by killing minions/monsters is decreased constantly (kiss&curse effect). That means, the Tier 1 and Tier 2 items are highly ineffective for farming positions, while the penalty for supports is super low. As a team you are punished when the support takes minions that another ally could have taken instead. Yet the punishment is not as bad (by far) if you try to poke enemies that are hiding behind their minions and kill a minion while doing so.

I think this option is much better than the current changes on PBE and I'd love to hear why your team would not prefer this one.

Sincerly, InTheory

kilI yourself2/24/2018, 3:11:49 PM8 votes

Make Shaco great again you shitty company

HappyHazard072/23/2018, 4:55:35 PM3 votes

Hey meddler,

Any thoughts on what to do with Zoe after the nerfs she took? Now that I’m playing her it feels like there is just not enough reward for the amount of work and risk you put in for a specific play.

What is the general direction you want this champion to go towards for the future?