Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 22

RiotMeddler·Jun 22, 2018·1 votes·83,907 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Moving away from big patch/small patch

We've been trying alternating big/small patches this year, with more systemic changes in the big and mainly balance tweaks in the small. As mentioned recently we're looking to reduce the amount of change over the rest of the year though, focusing on follow up to midseason, polish and balance instead. That means we won't be doing the big/small alternation, and will instead go back to a regular patch approach like in previous years, with systemic changes concentrated more in midseason and preseason patches again too.

New Tutorial

Last month we talked about some long needed improvements for the tutorial: https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-gb/2018/05/dev-new-player-experience/

At this point the new tutorial's now out and getting used by some new players. In order to understand where it's working well and where (if anywhere) it's worse than the old tutorial flow we've got it currently enabled for around half of new players to give us comparison points between new and old at the same point in time. Barring any surprises it should be enabled for all new accounts in the near future though for anyone wanting to check it out.

Some 8.14 changes

We've just done some initial planning for patch 8.14. Some of the things we'll be looking at:

Monitoring how our changes in 8.13 that impact bot lane, gold/xp funneling and snowball have gone, in particular to see if we should go further in 8.14.
Looking at mage balance, with a focus on mages who've been left in too weak a state after the 8.9 mana changes. We'll be assessing a range of champions for that, with changes expected to some, but not all of them. Some possible candidates include Syndra, Annie, Vel'Koz, Ahri, Cass, Viktor and Ori. Likely that some of those champions don't get buffed and some not on that list do though as we dig into things more.
Likely a buff to Karma. We're working on some longer term stuff for her, but will likely give her some straight power as well in the short term.
Potentially a buff to Liandries.

Domination buff

As a late addition to 8.13 we're buffing the Domination style bonus slightly. We've been seeing the Domination tree underperform, even for many champs it should be a great choice for. Buffing it a bit overall as a result. At some point (might be preseason) we also have plans for the vision slot to make it more appealing and satisfying, feel we should also just be raising the power of the tree a bit in the meantime regardless though.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

332 Comments

InfernapeJun 22, 201817 votes

Potentially a buff to Liandries

Brand "support" PTSD intensifies.

TomiMan7Jun 22, 20181 votes

learn to play againts him lol. <edited by mod> I've won lane against a brand support as ASHE support. Brand lane is easy, if you know how to play against one. Dont blame a champ if you dont know how to counter it.

https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/1987240829/220401023?tab=overview

https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/1986843088/220401023?tab=overview

InfernapeJun 22, 20189 votes

Hyperbole isn't your strong point is it?

TomiMan7Jun 22, 20181 votes

my point still stands. ppl bitch about brand support cos they dont know how to counter him/play against him.

StoriaronJun 22, 201815 votes

People bitch about it because it's insanely unfun to play against him.

TomiMan7Jun 22, 20181 votes

yes thats comes down to that ppl dont know how to play against him lol [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Newbie128749Jun 22, 201812 votes

nah he's just unfun to play against even if you know how to play against him, kinda like yasuo

RiotMeddlerJun 22, 201813 votes

For anyone that's missed them, given they're not datamineable off the PBE easily, the 8.13 snowball changes I'm referring to are:

Reduced early death timers
Reduced global gold on outer towers
Increased gold on bounty kills, including the return of a 2 kill bounty (looks like removing that took out too much catch up chance)

QuešJun 22, 20185 votes

Please for the love of god look at Kaisa gold funneling strat as it seems the most powerful so far(LCS/LCK). We got Yi,Taric,Nunu nerfs for this strat,but nothing about Kaisa.

Darth PlaegusJun 22, 20183 votes

The problem is that support items are still broken. The entire reason that strat is viable is because supports are on the one hand too good with too little items, and on the other hand get free gold. The entire reason the support role existed was the fact that the game only had 4 income streams for 5 people. The meta was always gold funneling, but because people without gold were useless back then, the most optimal way of gold funneling was using 1 income stream per player while having one player buying only utility/vision.

Now, if you create an item that gives half an income stream, your entire team gets more gold by funneling into a hypercarry because each player deprived of one of the 4 income streams gets half an income stream from the support item alone.

DarkinPrimeJun 23, 20184 votes

Your new Aatrox is awful.

Plus TwelveJun 22, 20188 votes

Meddler, is there any hope for Nasus and Corki to get some love?

Both are in a fairly poor state right now. Nasus can't stack fast anymore without CDR runes and the game is decided before he can do anything.

Corki is and has been in a bad spot for a long time.

ErenexJun 22, 20186 votes

Zoe Buff? Please? Zoe [sg-jinx]

RiotMeddlerJun 22, 201846 votes

Not sure if I'm being trolled here, but in case not, no, we won't be buffing Zoe at present. We think she's too strong, so have nerfs to her in the next patch (W MS and W AP ratio).

FlashnFuseJun 22, 20186 votes

Any thoughts on Diana?

noxysanJun 22, 20186 votes

nasus is the lowest win rate top laner in the game atm plat+ any plans?

DeathfallJun 22, 20185 votes

I cannot fathom how nothing was done for Karma right now on the PBE. You had two weeks to adjust to the changes and every single one of you said she was going to need small term buffs. I am not trying to throw any of you under the bus, but what is with the blatant hate with Karma? I mean you ruin her identity and take everything away from her in the VGU, to do absolutely nothing for 5 1/2 years. You don't comment about Karma at all and you guys are so delusional with your work ethic on her. The kit is not working, the art assets are not completed and working, the lore is not working, and the identity you gave her is not working. How much and how long does this community have to fight with you guys to do anything positive on this champion?

It's the same with Morde, Liss and so many other champions. How does the community have a better sense of your game than you guys do? Did you seriously think prioritizing work on Lux, Ryze Azir 2 times and Ahri for the past year was worth it? Do you think working on popular champions over the ones that have been waiting years now, was a fair and honest use of your time? No it wasn't. You ignored requests, discussions, and feedback on so many champions to work on the same garbage champions that get updates and VU every year, because God forbid they drop one or two points in their paly and win rates. Got to make sure they are always meta relevant in the game and have completed art assets.

Seriously Meddler . . . I wonder why you still have a job sometimes. This is me not trying to be mean but this is me trying to make sense that you prioritize a hotfix for a garbage and annoying champion like Yasuo, but Karma is going to have to wait 5 weeks now for a small buff . . . and almost 4 months for a kit rework that is going to buff her shields again. You better be doing something meaningful with these Karma changes because the community on the boards and Reddit will come after you if you don't. Do the work that was supposed to be done 5 1/2 years ago and show us you care about all of your champions. It's annoying how you guys work.

Attticus FinchJun 22, 20181 votes

The hate for Karma is that her kit is cancerous shit but because there's already a line for reworks she can't get any comprehensive changes. So she's allowed to be shit for as long as her kit is problematic.

The real question is why you fools take it personally when there have been plenty of champs in states as bad or worse. Syndra has been bad for almost as long as Karma has been if not longer. So has Caitlyn and Azir.

TomiMan7Jun 22, 20187 votes

Syndra has been bad for almost as long as Karma has been if not longer. So has Caitlyn and Azir.

what the fuck? just what the fuck?

Syndra in a bad state for as long as karma? Do you remember when syndra was a pick or ban champ? same with cait? Just to be clear im not a karma player i hate her with all my heart but what you have said is just not true

ImpidimpJun 22, 20184 votes

Are you planning on making any changes to enchanters/crit adc's in light of the recent meta shifts? Or any comments on the meta shift in general.

RiotMeddlerJun 22, 20186 votes

Enchanters - Not yet for the subclass as a whole at least. Likely we buff Karma at least though.

Crit ADCs - Putting power back into them, with a goal of getting them back to being reasonable picks in bot lane without in the process buffing marksmen so much bot goes back to being marksmen only.

Meta in general - Lot to be excited about. Gold/XP funneling looks problematic. Need to put crit ADCs back in better spots as above. Also need to ensure 4 fighter teams don't become standard (in part because lack of squishy targets and lower positional relevance leads to less interesting team fights).

I may afkJun 22, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Enchanters - Not yet for the subclass as a whole at least. Likely we buff Karma at least though.

Crit ADCs - Putting power back into them, with a goal of getting them back to being reasonable picks in bot lane without in the process buffing marksmen so much bot goes back to being marksmen only.

Meta in general - Lot to be excited about. Gold/XP funneling looks problematic. Need to put crit ADCs back in better spots as above. Also need to ensure 4 fighter teams don't become standard (in part because lack of squishy targets and lower positional relevance leads to less interesting team fights).

Yes and please don't bring back 3 tank team compositions either. No one likes to play against a team with 3-4 tanks playing out of 4 positions with a random ADC like an Ornn/Maokai top, Sejuani/Zac jungle, Galio/Sion mid, and Kench/Alistar support with a random hypercarry ADC.

If you want assassins to be a thing again(like it seems Riot does) you need to maintain the niche that damage oriented squishy champs have in the game without making certain individual damage champions so dominant that a team can have 3-4 tanks and still have enough damage to carry the game.

Seviel VoroseJun 22, 20184 votes

Do you already know what you're going to change about Syndra's kit?

RiotMeddlerJun 22, 20183 votes

Not yet. We've just started work on the 8.14 patch, so mainly still at the picking our targets stage, rather than digging into specific solutions.

SpideraxeJun 22, 20183 votes

Hey Meddler can I ask for your thoughts on the under utilized runes like Dark Harvest, Lethal Tempo and Glacial Augment?

RiotMeddlerJun 22, 20185 votes

Dark Harvest - Performs pretty well on some users, is somewhat niche in part because of how appealing Electrocute seems to be to a lot of people. Unlikely we do too much to it in the foreseeable.

Lethal Tempo - Doesn't have a clear enough niche (PTA overlap in part), satisfaction/useability aren't where they should be either. Expect we'll heavily modify or replace at some point. Isn't doing active harm right now though, so don't feel we have to just straight remove it.

Glacial Augment - This is one of the Keystones we're most cautious of, given how powerful added CC, even just a slow. Might put a bit more power into it at some point, really want to avoid making it too common though given what that does to game state, laning especially.

risteJun 22, 20183 votes

Meddler - I use Glacial Augment in some matchups as Garen and really would like this rune to stay. I absolutely agree that if this rune were to be given too much power, it could heavily be exploited, which is why I would propose to keep the numbers as is for auto attacks, and instead slightly buff the Glacial Augmentation with active items. I really believe that if the "Frozen Beam" lines were adjusted to be slightly cone like and cover a larger area towards the end of the beam, it could be more viable while also rewarding users who are using Active Items in tangent with the rune compared to those who would just take the rune for lane power.

CooconJun 22, 20183 votes

possible Syndra changes? [sg-syndra] waitin for it

DucasiJun 22, 20183 votes

News on Lissandra ?

You said there were some changes but never followed up.

Maybe a healing passive with her cc or abilities would fit her kit and persona perfectly given she is close-to-mid range and has an ice blood queen theme !

[katarina-love]

VicimusJun 22, 20183 votes

I hope you realize that the problem with Liandries isn't the strength of the item but rather its place in a build path. Most champions who want to build Liandries will often build a mana + CDR item first, and then normally straight Deathcap/Void in order to be relevant in the game. Builds that can go Liandries without severely gimping their mana/CDR are insanely powerful.

I'm saying this as a Diamond player who has experimented extensively with Liandries in the past. It has the same problem as Spellbinder. They're both INSANELY strong items, it's just that the champions that want to build them NEED mana/CDR to survive OR Deathcap/Mpen is just straight up better.

J EevoJun 22, 20183 votes

Any chance for Kassadin buffs that aren't scaling buffs? I know he's being kept as a niche pick on purpose even in metas that are better for him but the combining of both antimage and lategame seem a tad much since you need to be able to both survive till late(which you won't in this meta) and play against an AP(which you might). Seems like there's a very small amount of games where you can even pick him, and even then it's a toss up.

DarkinPrimeJun 23, 20183 votes

New Aatrox is in PBE. you dont HAVE to ship him. Its a failure and an insult to your players.

FlutterrsJun 22, 20182 votes

Hi Meddler! Hope your day is going well.

For the Domination tree's vision row, do you think you might be adding a new option or just rebalancing the existing runes? If it's the former, does the balance team have any preliminary thoughts on which rune might be removed/shifted? I know Zombie Ward has been a bit of a sticking point in the past but it seems to be in an okay spot right now, not sure about how Ghost Poro and Eyeball Collection are viewed since they haven't needed as much tweaking.

Thanks for the post as always!

RiotMeddlerJun 22, 20184 votes

Likely some adjustment to everything in the slot. Zombie Ward provides a lot of strong but unengaging power by extending your own wards lifespan effectively. Ghost Poro's pretty much always a bad choice. Eyeball Collector's functional, but pretty stat heavy and opts out of vision interactions a bit much.

Having said that, none of those are critical problems, but would want to work on them all whenever we do make those changes to the slot.

StoriaronJun 22, 20181 votes

Isn't it eyeball collection? Why do people call it eyeball collector?

RiotMeddlerJun 22, 20183 votes

Ah, yeah, it is. We had an ongoing lighthearted argument about which we should go with while naming Runes, I'll probably get it wrong forever as a result.

La BelloJun 22, 20183 votes

As an assassin player please free me from the Electrocute fetters that bind me....

to have so many runes to choose from but to be forever balanced and a slave to one...

please riot....

Im not sure how many more years of this damn rune I can handle..

Keystone CowboyzJun 22, 20182 votes

Hey Meddler, thoughts on the Fizz changes on the PBE? Fizz mains reddit seems think it feels clunky. Are you set on his W being the 2 hits or are you open to trying different things? Seems to me the W and R go hand in hand. Even if the W changes punishing a melee assassin for ulting in melee range is absurd. Also taking away the last hitting W mechanic is kinda rough imo.

EDIT: have you thought about lowering the ult damage a little bit but making it do the same damage at any distance but the slow and knockup cc scale with range how it is now?

Also thoughts on Corki? You mentioned he was a candidate for buffs 8.12 but never got any. Anything for Syndra as well?

RiotMeddlerJun 22, 20183 votes

Fizz work is still comparatively early and exploratory. It won't be shipping in the next patch and, as with Rengar/LB, we're putting it on the PBE early to gather feedback. Not certain on exact tactics the team's thinking, but there'll be changes and ongoing discussion over time.

Corki still needs a bit of help, though isn't top of our list at present (ongoing bot lane work and mage followup as mentioned's more of the focus).

Syndra will be looked at as part of that mage work.

Fisherman FizzJun 22, 20183 votes

Hey, with the Fizz changes it seems like there's somewhat of a disconnect between what Riot wants to do and what the community was expecting. I think a lot of Fizz mains were hoping to get a revert similar to what LB and Rengar got, rather than another new W mechanic, and a lot of the negative feedback I think is coming from the fact that more new mechanics isn't really what people were asking for or wanting.

Dark Angel o3oJun 23, 20182 votes

Meddler, I understand Riot wanting to tend away from moving purely marksmen away from botlane. But at the same time, ADC stands for "Attack Damage Carry" so why are AP champs in the lane meta? IE Kayle, Malzahar,

RaikouBoltJun 27, 20182 votes

Any thoughts for those of us who have been waiting for lissandra Buffs since 8.6 ? She had a new passive tested and all and then she was forgotten again . Any thoughts on that ?

NamorJun 27, 20182 votes

What about Lissandra ?[sg-janna]

UpooOnMeJun 22, 20181 votes

If I recall correctly, the original aim for mid-season was opening up bot lane (to mages in particular), but as it got closer you decided to focus more on marksman changes only.

Now that bot lane has opened a bit anyway and you are trying to keep it that way, would you mind sharing how the team feels about the mid-season changes? Are there any further plans for increasing bot lane diversity?

RiotMeddlerJun 22, 20188 votes

We concluded we were better off working on what excluded other classes from bot lane (some aspects of how marksmen functioned) than trying to push specific other classes in. In terms of bot lane being more open at present we're really positive on that, the degree to which it's excluding crit ADCs though is something we need to fix and are actively working on. Trying to do that without swinging so hard back in the other direction though that we go back to marksmen only.

In terms of further increasing bot lane diversity, besides getting some missing marksmen back in more, no immediate plans. Looking much more to balance the lane, do followup polish, than try and shift it further at present.

KadexeJun 22, 20183 votes

Do you think there's a serious risk that crit marksmen will only be viable in a competitive environment, where they have funneled gold, the game's pace is slower, and teammates are consistently protecting them?

L RayquazaJun 22, 20181 votes

Anything you are looking at for Yorick?

RiotMeddlerJun 22, 20183 votes

Bit concerned that the buffs and bug fixes he got last patch added noticeably more power than the Sterak's adjustment removed. Don't think he's in a spot where he currently needs to be nerfed, but certainly closer to too strong than too weak so keeping an eye on him.

EyesOfTheFoxJun 22, 20182 votes

As a below average rank player, Yorick does not need buffs. He already smashes people in lane lower elos, not to mention he still has his banner of command. Not sure why you were considering buffs in the first place.

RiotMeddlerJun 22, 20183 votes

We expected shifting Sterak's from Base AD to Bonus would bring down a few champs power wise, Yorick included. Turned out to have only a small effect on those going for the Triforce+Sterak's combo, Yorick buffs were on the assumption it would do more.