Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 19

RiotMeddler·May 19, 2017·1 votes·75,810 views

Morning all,

Smaller bits and pieces today. We should be in a spot where we can start talking about some of our plans for the rest of the year soon, for now we're still in mid-season followup time though.

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Zac

Looks like we definitely overbuffed Zac in 7.10. We're looking at the best way to tone his power down at present, and figuring out just how out of line he is or isn't. Possible that happens in a hotfix, more likely 7.11 changes though unless we get a clear read on what exactly the biggest issue is and it looks urgent enough to not wait.

Guardian Angel

We've been testing a nerf to GA on the PBE, exploring a approach where it's less effective on champions doing really well already (higher CD, CD reduced if you're dying repeatedly, thereby bringing the total number of 'deaths' it procs on somewhat closer for winning/losing teams). That's shown some promise, we're going to hold off on shipping it or other changes for now though. It's not clear enough GA's a problem, rather than just really popular but overrated. Planning to reassess for the next patch.

Icon Updates

Should be a few more of these coming soon. Up next, Amumu and then, if memory serves Ahri.

Yasuo

Mid-season was kind to Yasuo, leaving him noticeably stronger. We're taking some power out in 7.11 as a result, reducing the duration he can hold his Q buff after hitting a target (both the initial buildup buff and the knockup buff). Some of that's reducing the duration Yasuo can threaten with the Q3. It's also intended to make Yasuo more dependent on allied knockups, making him a more or less attractive pick based off team comps. That's likely a direction we'll continue to investigate in future as well.

L e B l a n c

We got back to looking at LB this patch. LB definitely needs work, she's been a problem since her update in pre-season. The changes we've been testing aren't hitting the mark at present however. We'll be looking at possible directions again next week. Apologies for ongoing lack of details on this one.

15 minute unanimous surrender

The early surrender option went out a few days ago in 7.10. We're seeing a bit of early friction around it in some games, based off the earlier test we ran in Oceania for a couple of months that's not unexpected. What we saw there was, after a settling down period, surrender rates before and after the introduction of the earlier option were unchanged. Effectively some games that would have been surrenders at 20 became surrenders at 15 instead. Other things we were measuring (afk rates, number of reports per game etc) didn't meaningfully change. We expect we'll see a similar trend in other regions, going to be keeping an eye on that though. If that's not the case would certainly be worth discussing adjustments (is this a feature that's a good fit for some regions but not others? Is 15 mins the correct time? Etc).

269 Comments

RockmanMay 19, 201713 votes

Meddler, you have Leblanc written as Le Blanc in the post.

Please hot fix

RiotMeddlerMay 19, 201721 votes

{quoted}

Meddler, you have Leblanc written as Le Blanc in the post.

Please hot fix

Post updated. That sort it out?

SpideraxeMay 19, 201710 votes

Its now L E B lanc

DCYOUNG888May 19, 20171 votes

Now L e B lanc. Is Meddler tired or just messing with us?

SpideraxeMay 19, 20179 votes

Hes confirmed Leblanc getting 2 additional spells on her L and B keys

GaKgAkGaKMay 19, 20173 votes

She can no longer recall, but can instead kill an enemy champion and then press B to disguise as them, making her immune to turrets or enemy units targeting her.

Tricksters Glass 2.0

SpideraxeMay 19, 20171 votes

Leblanc also steal half her opponents gold with a minimum of 1k gold

GaKgAkGaKMay 19, 20171 votes

If they cannot pay this debt, she takes some of their items to make up for the deficit. There is a 50% chance of her taking all the opponents items, because she can be very... persuasive 😉

SpideraxeMay 19, 20171 votes

She also takes her opponents lvls if she is behind in xp

AeszarckMay 21, 20173 votes

{quoted}

She also takes her opponents lvls if she is behind in xp

She also takes their IP, because why not?

RiotMeddlerMay 19, 201715 votes

{quoted}

Its now L E B lanc

Oh, right. Updated.

Fisherman FizzMay 19, 201712 votes

{quoted}

Oh, right. Updated.

lEbLanC

http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2017/05/16/16-spongebob-explainer.w710.h473.jpg

ModThe DjinnMay 20, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Oh, right. Updated.

Thanks for this. Brightened my evening. :D

WendígoMay 19, 201712 votes

Off-topic But duplicate bans in the 10 ban system is going to result in wasted bans Resulting in player frustration

RiotMeddlerMay 19, 20178 votes

Yeah, I'd imagine there'll be some people who feel frustrated sometimes that they've ended up with a duplicate ban. We felt that was appropriate however for a couple of reasons:

This format gets through champ select quite a bit faster. We want to get people into game fairly quickly, given that's usually much more fun than champ select.
One of our goals with more bans was to give every player a guaranteed ban, increasing the amount of agency they have. We want the right compromise where everyone can remove something they don't want to play against every game, but people still have the best odds within that constraint of themselves getting to play what they do want. More agency, and more fairness based off position in champ select, are what we're aiming for, not more of the roster unavailable to play.

Illâoi Evê SiônMay 19, 20177 votes

I understand that on a game-ish design level, but I'm still already frustrated. I wanted to see some "annoying" champions have 100% ban rate for a while so your various update teams feel forced to make them more fun to play against. Instead they'll have around 75% ban rate and everyone will just accept that that's the new normal high ban rate and the champions will stay as they are. There'll probably even be a new argument saying that it isn't so bad because you don't see those champions all that often (which makes the games you do play against them worse because you have less experience playing against them).

DragonIgnisMay 20, 20173 votes

Neither of those reasons require duplicate bans being a thing.

Point 1 is the reason the bans are simultaneous. Point 2 is rather ambiguous. It says that Riot wants to give more bans but doesn't want to reduce the available roster. This point contradicts with itself more than being a reason for duplicate bans. I understand that Riot is supporting player agency but the consequence is inherently fewer playable champions.

On the 10 bans announcement page, the reasoning given is that Riot wants to prevent bait-and-switch moments. A better remedy would be to require locking in or consider it a dodge.

**My proposition is that simultaneous banning is kept and both teams see any locked in bans. Hovered bans don't get shown to the enemy team. However, players are required to lock in their bans.**

There can't be bait-and-switch moments if players don't show the ban until it's not changeable.

AhristocatsMay 19, 201710 votes

Hey Meddler, like the last time i have a lot of questions concerning league balance Corki data shows that this dude is the most unpopular champion+is underperforming with like 40% win rate doesn't he need something? i hate to see weak champions

Janna recently i realised that her ult doesn't knock back through walls anymore despite it not being in the patchs (it could before there are multiple youtube videos showing it) Was it too broken to be removed? Lee sin ult and alistar W can still knock back through walls

item 3116 thoughts on this item? it's been a long time since the changes Rylai used to be built on Burst mages like Syndra/annie, and now Rylai is only being built on morde (for obvious reasons) and support mages like brand/zyra Bruisers like Swain Rumble Amumu Elise Vladimir stopped building it, especially Singed who went to build things like item 3800 item 3742

i just want to know if you're fine with current Rylai being only good on support mages, or if you think it needs buffs for AP bruisers it's also worth remembering that the build path became bad for champions like singed

sincerly Janna

GlîtchyMay 19, 20178 votes

I just vote no buff for Leblanc, as she already does stupid damage while her blink is basically an "oh I fucked up" ability.

Sir NopeMay 19, 201715 votes

I don't think he's talking about just straight buffing her. LeBlanc is suffering Poppy Syndrome: her kit is near impossible to balance due to the mechanics of them rather than the flat numbers, so she'll remain weak until she gets her mechanics reworked.

zaphod424May 19, 201714 votes

Yea, I'm a lb main, and I agree, people seem to think that we are annoyed with the rework because she is weak, she isn't, she is really strong, we don't like how boring any unfun she is to play, and how her old playstyle is gone completely.

She's much stronger than she was pre rework, just she's less fun Leblanc item 3070

RiotMeddlerMay 19, 20176 votes

Yep. We'll be looking at both buffs and nerfs, potentially some functionality adjustments as well.

iahim98May 19, 20173 votes

Have you guys considered removing E ability to proc the passive by itself and putting more power somewhere else. I know that right now the problem is more from hextech gunblade and lich bane that she is op (and the clone interaction with those items), but LB mostly uses E to proc her passive (unless she waveclears), keeps her W to make sure you don't escape it or just straight up engages with it, as it is hard to escape her E and just spams q off cd, removing her need to actual think about how to combo her spells for the passive proc, while also making her E hurt a lot for an ability she maxes last.

Lebłanc BotMay 19, 20174 votes

Or maybe a revert of her rework and go from there she seems almost impossible to balance now. And tbh she needs alittle buff 47% winrate isn't to good

Rovert duBelmontMay 19, 20178 votes

Hi, Meddler, hope you're doing well.

I noticed some changes for Sion on the pbe, the one exciting me the most being the buff to the health scaling for his shield.

How likely is that change here to stay? Do you think Sion is in a good spot with it?

Thanks for your consideration.

RiotMeddlerMay 19, 20176 votes

Something like that's likely to stick around. It's part of a pass on a number of tanks that are struggling a bit post mid-season so need some adjustments (Mundo's another candidate, pretty sure we'll look at Malphite as well).

Ganked By TiltMay 19, 20178 votes

I just don't get why ANY rioter won't comment on Diana Diana , its like they're avoiding her...

Solari FortuneMay 19, 20176 votes

I was wondering if Riot has any plans for Leona? I feel she has gotten shoved out of the way by a lot of other tanks so she never has a chance to shine (pun not intended) Could something possibly be adding some other way she can contribute? Cause atm all she can do is just engage and standing around waiting for an opportunity to do so can be rather annoying. Plus, it would be nice if she could have an option to get herself out of a situation like some other tanks like Sej, Naut, and Zac for example.

EvilUnicornLordMay 19, 20171 votes

All the more recent tank supports have some way to directly defend their ADC while she only has CC.

I would suggest a change, but I don't play Leona.

HelmightMay 19, 20175 votes

Leona is intended to be a vanguard, not a warden. Her focus isn't on protecting her team, but on setting up her allies to get kills. It's the difference between Malphite - who wants to initiate with his ult to set his team up for success - and Galio, who CAN start fights, but really just wants to keep his team's carries safe.

Sure, Malph and Leona CAN use their CC abilities to peel for their friends, but they're better off using them to start a fight.

Sir NopeMay 19, 20172 votes

The issue with Leona is that while she can start fights, her ability to win them is very limited. If she dives without her teammates already approaching the fight, she's dead in the water. (Her E makes her go DEEP, making it both a blessing and a curse.) If she DOES get followup, she'll get ignored since she doesn't really impact a fight outside of her long-cooldown single-target CC and early-game-only Sunlight procs.

Want to make her involved? Decrease the CD on her Q, double down on her ability to lock down the enemy carry and force the enemy team to focus her. Also, increase the damage on her Sunlight late game.

HelmightMay 19, 20175 votes

I believe that her lack of things to do in fights is why Riot gave her first three AAs after ulting bonus damage - that way she'd actually have something else to do in fights once she's gone in and blown her load. Reduced CD on the Q would be a fair buff though, makes it so that she still feels engaged.

I don't think that vanguards "win" fights, per se - Malphite, Sion, and other initiator tanks suffer from the same problem as Leona if they dive too deep for their team to follow. Nor should the tank be the one to "win" fights - unless they're landing a perfect five-man ultimate, it should be the carries that dictate how the rest of the fight proceeds (hence the name "carries" :P). Tanks just get the fight to start on the right foot.

RiotMeddlerMay 19, 20179 votes

Nothing at present. Leona's a pretty focused character - very initiation/lockdown heavy, all about when to go without much in the way of escape or allied protection. We think it's pretty valuable to have some champs like that, especially given how many champions are in the game now. Wouldn't want to push her towards being too similar to other tanks as a result.

AaravosMay 19, 20176 votes

Thoughts on item 3102 ? Why it is cheaper than item 3157 ? Same stats and the spell shield is at least as strong as the stasis if not more in some situations. Just a personaly opinion, but the tradeoffs for is too small right now considering how hard counter it is against a lots of champion. I also feel mages are too safe with item 3102 and together and i worry it will hit the mid lane diversity hard. (especially on competitive SCEENE) Could rly handle +200g.

RiotMeddlerMay 19, 20178 votes

We are seeing Banshee's be a bit too effective as a rush item. We'll be upping its combine cost and MR as a result, leaving its power later in the game similar but reducing its early game impact.

ShahamutMay 19, 20176 votes

Hey Meddler, its been a while, I just want to know if my pal Skarner is still on yall's radar.

It seems to me, and many others, that Skarner was really more of a speedster/skirmisher prior to juggernaut changes... It feels like you guys are unsure of what you want Skarner to be. Can we get some feedback on the scorpion?

"many others" I can post a link to a recent thread I started if you wish. I have made several other posts in the past, but they don't much attention so they are rarely seen. But the people who do comment on them all seem to feel the same.

Chromatic EagleMay 19, 20174 votes

Could you explain what you're trying to do with BotRK? At first it looked like you were changing the stats between melee and ranged. Now it looks like you are flat nerfing it across the board.

RiotMeddlerMay 19, 20176 votes

We were looking at whether a ranged/melee split on the current health damage made sense. Conclusion was that at least right now the issue most in need of solving was the amount of sustain offered though, hence we're hitting that to start with.

HigeMay 19, 20176 votes

So this has nothing to do with Lucian? he's the one who gets the most out of it, even if you kept the melee/ranged changes

I think that simply nerfing the sustain won't affect lucian much, he will still dominate because, again, he can proc it more than anyone else, champions like Jinx or Tristana find themselves incredibly behind when compared to lucian proccing that thing... in the case that this is true and that Lucian makes BotRK a staple item on his kit no matter what, would you guys choose to tweak Lucian or to continue work on the item?

RiotMeddlerMay 19, 20175 votes

We'll be nerfing Lucian a bit. We think it's appropriate that BotRK is a strong item on some ADCs and that was one of its original intended goals that the recent changes to it were meant to reinforce.

We'll probably be increasing Lucian's Q mana cost, reduce his power across the game a bit that way, especially for non ER builds (when ER's in a decent spot Lucian should want to consider it). Might also reduce his ult range slightly, further reinforce the shorter range marksmen identity (less sure on that bit for now though).

LordOfTheLeagueMay 19, 20173 votes

About IE and ER. Those two items shouldn't be more equal in strength and appeal ? And not, I take IE every game and maybe I should tale ER sometimes if I am a caster mm.

The bonus crit damage seems too good in every case even if you have mana problems.

Cosmic WarperMay 19, 20175 votes

{quoted}

We'll be nerfing Lucian a bit. We think it's appropriate that BotRK is a strong item on some ADCs and that was one of its original intended goals that the recent changes to it were meant to reinforce.

We'll probably be increasing Lucian's Q mana cost, reduce his power across the game a bit that way, especially for non ER builds (when ER's in a decent spot Lucian should want to consider it). Might also reduce his ult range slightly, further reinforce the shorter range marksmen identity (less sure on that bit for now though).

Why don't you just restrict his passive from applying on-hits twice so that he doesn't abuse bork? His reaver build is balanced but his bork build is the problem. Please look at how bork changes affect him first before nerfing him.

SkaomMay 19, 20172 votes

There was talk about nerfing yasuos e dash cooldowns from 0.5/0.4/0.3/0.2/0.1 to 1/0.75/0.5/0.25/0. I did not see you mention this in these gameplay thoughts. Does that mean those changes have been scrapped as an idea for nerfs? Please respond, my hasagi depends on it.

RiotMeddlerMay 19, 20175 votes

We were testing that as a change. Conclusion was it wasn't a good one (felt particularly bad relative to its power impact which didn't seem to be that high). It got pulled as a result.

iahim98May 19, 201712 votes

How about making his E work with an ammo system, I'll copy paste here a part of my comment from this thread: "Something that I want to see is his E having an ammo system, something like 3/4/5/6/7, recharges every 6 sec and refills in base (not necessary this numbers, I want a low number early and definitely not infinite uses at max rank), I think this would solve a part of his frustration, and wouldn't hurt as much good yasuo players as they usually dash only when necessary and look for good angles to reach their target faster, but would solve the frustrating cases like after trading and running back with half hp you see your own minion wave coming and you feel like "you little traitorous bastards" as they seem like they come to aid yasuo, not you. My goal with these changes is having yasuo care about how often he uses his dashes and give the opponent a chance to leave yasuo immobile if he makes him use all his dashes (or yasuo wastes them)." Also people in the thread generally agreed that his W should have shorter duration, I thought about W having a stack system like yorick wall for how much could block, but it would still included a shorter duration which seemed much simpler.

EDIT:insert link doesn't seem to work, I'll just link the thread here https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/VkstQR8J-an-analysis-on-why-yasuo-is-hated?

EvilUnicornLordMay 19, 20171 votes

~~Soooo, how about instead you guys take away Yasuo's second passive (the crit one) and buff him in other areas so he doesn't get broken when you buff crit for our poor adcs?~~

~~Just a thought. Don't hate me for it, Yasuo mains, lower banrate is better.~~

I've been wrong before!

Sahn UzalMay 19, 201723 votes

So he can build shit like Triforce + Bork or Titanic Hydra into tank? The crit passive forces Yasuo into a more damage heavy itemisation, trust me, you don't want it gone.

EvilUnicornLordMay 19, 20174 votes

Okay, well, then I'll take your better judgement.

Regardless, we want some way to improve quality of life for ADCs in this season without imbalancing AD skirmishers who build similarly (while Tryndamere and Yi would make that list, Yasuo is far more popular, thus placing his priority higher).

So any ideas?

Sahn UzalMay 19, 201712 votes

? Balance them accordingly.

The Crit items aren't being balanced around Yasuo, Yasuo is being balanced around his items.

The nerfs currently on PBE only prove that.