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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 18

RiotMeddler··1 votes·34,688 views

Hey all,

Mid-season stuff should hit PBE today! Really looking forward to seeing everyone's thoughts after it does. Some bits and pieces below in the meantime.


Support Basic Attacks

As part of our ongoing work on the support position we've got a mixture of both large and small changes planned. We've talked about the revised support starting items already, which is the largest support focused piece in mid-season. As a smaller change though we've also got some feel improvements to the basic attacks of various champions often played as support too. Those are generally champs who aren't very auto attack based. On one hand that means having a good feeling auto attack isn't as critical as it is on say a marksmen. On the other hand it's also tended to mean their attacks haven't received the same attention in past, so there's a lot of room for improvement. We've got some tweaks coming to Sona, Morg, Annie, Janna, Nami and Soraka in 7.9.


Ancient Coin

The ancient coin line changes will hopefully be one of the more interesting things hitting PBE today, at least for bot lane players. For anyone wanting to do a bit of early theorycrafting the stats we're currently testing on Coin at 22g at Tier 1 and 32g at Tiers 2 and 3 on gold coins, with 8% missing mana restored on mana coins. More details on our goals with those items to follow later today, we're hoping amongst other things to make Coin a more interesting and appealing choice on a wider range of champions.


10 Bans in Ranked and Draft

We haven't talked about ban changes for a bit, they're certainly not forgotten though. Should be able to get back to some details about that after mid-season, with work on the new client coming along well getting some needed pre-requisites out of the way.


Poacher's Dirk

We're also testing out some small tweaks to Poacher's Dirk in 7.9. It's an item that's under performed since its introduction that we've hesitated to buff because some of its likely potential users have been challenging to balance. We're at the point though where we think we can make at least some changes to make it a bit more attractive versus just buying a couple of long swords to upgrade later. We're looking at a lower cost and CD, paired with a bit less AD, as a result.

141 Comments

Big Lincoln24 votes

You should change the name of these segments to Meddler's Musings. it's pretty catchy imo

MrBuffington7 votes

"Enter the Mind of the Meddler"

"Meddler: Mindfreak"

Big Lincoln25 votes

In Beddler with Meddler

Malicious Metal4 votes

Yes.

RiotMeddler17 votes

Oh god please no.

Big Lincoln5 votes

Yeah post them all at night so that it makes sense too

Spaceman5pff2 votes

"Meddler: Mind-Phreak"

FTFY

Thrace6 votes

Since I can't seem to get a response anywhere else from Riot:

Any chance the Coin change can be different? I only play Support and honestly relying on pickups for gold is not a good mechanic. As a Thresh, you already miss a lot of souls because it's absolutely not safe to walk over a minion corpse. When this sort of mini-game mechanic starts starving gold income, it's really bad. The coin pickup gravity radius (of sorts) would need to be much larger than Thresh souls or else you'll be leaving a lot on the map. Did anyone internally ask the broader player base of Supports if Coin is a problem? I for one like that while my overall gold income may be lower over time, that I don't have to do kitchy things for income (and the added sustain matters a lot for squishy enchanters or can't run forward to pick up scraps).

Can we have a discussion that doesn't start with this decision already being made instead of tweaks to it? It's really not appealing on so many levels. The triumverate works well now. One for sturdy melee, one for dmg/pokey ranged, and one for those champs that really, never want to be near opponents. So not you're forcing them to walk into potentially dangerous situations just to acquire the game's most basic currency? Sorry, another edit. Do we really want to create a scenario where the enemy bot lane can actually freeze a Support out of their already limited gold income? That sounds horrible with little recourse for a heal/shield centric champ

Fałłen5 votes

Any zekes passive changes ?

Daddy Zernii5 votes

Hi Meddler, When we can expect Urgot rework? Patch 6.13? 6.15?

RiotMeddler8 votes

He'll be the next major update, can't say much more beyond that yet.

Though can assure you we won't travel back in time to last year to release him (6.13 and 6.15 happened in 2016).

Lëo2 votes

Hey Meddler!

I want to ask if you have any thoughts on Lee? LeeSin Do you plan on giving him a Visual Update any time soon (Fiora level for example) or a Gameplay Update/Ability Rework. Does he have an up-to-date balanced kit in your opinion? Also will he be a major candidate for the Diver Class Update? Thank you in advance for your response and have a nice day!

Sincerely, Leo

Daddy Zernii3 votes

Lol, my bad. I just got up. Sorry for mistake!

Mastęr Yi5 votes

Hi Meddler,

About the Poacher's Dirk I think its problem is the gap of rewarding.

At the first two counter jungle you take the risk of feeding but even you succeed you get nothing, all rewards only comes after the successful 3rd counter jungle. This method makes players depressed until they finish the 3rd counter, and that's why I give up this item when I play Shaco.

Making the reward more smooth will help a lot, for example:

after the 1st successful counter jungle, you can get +5 AD on Poacher's Dirk as a reward.

then the 2nd, another +5 AD (same with Serrated Dirk now)

then after the 3rd counter jungle, +10 Lethality and change to Serrated Dirk.

Nomez5 votes

Bugfixes Mordekaiser :^) ?

Hige4 votes

still a bit scared about coin... allowing gold to be obtained like that will further empower mages and even adcs to play as supports even if they aren't precisely healthy for the role, malzahar comes to mind and currently MF is probably walking that path too... but we'll see

RiotMeddler9 votes

Don't forget anyone getting Coin is giving up the Spellthief's line. From what we've seen so far really damaged focused champs who play as support still prefer Spellthief's for the extra damage/similar income. If that proves not to be the case it'll just suggest Coin's overtuned and needs to be brought down a bit.

Onerios1 votes

Spellthief would certainly be better in an all in situation, but before purchasing extra mana regen or against a lane with sustain it is easy to find yourself mana starved on supports who currently take spellthief. Allowing even one more cast in a 30-40 second time span would more then outweigh the damage boost, so if it is reasonable restoration and reasonably easy to access the coins I would expect a switch. On the other hand though lots of the supports who take coin currently do it because it is lower risk then spellthief, so making it appropriate risk/reward for the former group is likely to make it poor for the latter.

I have not tried it on the pbe yet mind, and given the ping playing from europe is not practical, so there is a decent chance I am wrong, but from just hearing about the mechanics I'm not enthusiastic.

RiotMeddler5 votes

There's certainly some risk on the mana side yeah, though so far it's tested pretty reasonably in that regard. We have seen less damage focused but still aggressive mana hungry champs do quite well with it though at least (e.g. Blitz if he's willing to give up the healing/tankiness on Targon's).

AlevOs3 votes

Won't there be an issue with champions like Janna and Soraka who tend to want to stay back more trying to collect these coins? It seems like it will make them have a much less safe laning phase especially when up against Blitzcrank and Thresh.

The Last Ballad1 votes

Would there be room in the future for Murksphere(that one support item from BMB) to come back in some form? Because currently there is no support item that directly synergizes with how more passive enchanters wish to play.

Mages have a support item that gives gold for attacking the enemy. New changes also give them "Netherstride Grimoire"(also from BMB) type passive upon stack discharge.

Tanks have an item that gives pretty efficient tank stats, which are pretty close to item 1054, and stat wise, way better than the other support items when compared their dorian's equivalent (coin is worth a item 1004+little bit of CDR). The new changes also further the ability for tanks to absorb damage in teamfights.

And the new coin seems geared towards the supports that want to be up in the enemy's face, zoning them off of the minion wave with the threat of engage(Thresh Blitzcrank Rakan), and while the quest rewards are helpful to enchanters, it doesn't benefit them more than it would (almost) any other type of support. The extra point more helps out those champs who have multiple skills in their kit that are necessary for their playstyle, and you want points in them almost equally(Thresh q/e, Blitz q/e, Rakan w/e). Enchanter's on the other hand, usually max their shield/heal first, then everything else is rather meh as far as adding power to their kits goes(an argument could be made for Soraka though, what with the regen from her q, but she of all the supports needs correct positioning the most).

So supports like Janna Soraka Lulu don't fit into any of these play styles, especially coin's which presents them with the choice "put yourself out of position and into danger, or you get no gold", and none of the quests' rewards really synergize with them either. Only one is helpful, and even then not in a synergistic way.

Now, do not take this as me railing against the coin change, because I see that it is necessary. And those champs shouldn't be able to just sit in the back and almost afk for their gold(Janna and Soraka are in my top 5 highest mastery champs, bty). But they also shouldn't be forced to play against how their kits require them to, just to get gold.

And that is where Murksphere would come in. The enchanters, as a class, prefer to go in for short trades and, by either reducing the damage done with a shield or just healing the damage done back, slowly wear down their enemies in a battle of attrition. They also tend(or, at least, they seem) to build the most active items out of the classes, and are therefore more likely to get more use out of item 2045.

As of August 2015, Murksphere had the stats of

Stats +25% base mana regeneration +5% cooldown reduction

UNIQUE – SWINDLER'S SHIELD: Shields target ally from the next 60 damage. You generate 1 gold for every 4 damage absorbed (maximum of 15). Self-cast shields will not generate gold from monster damage. 15 second cooldown

Sound familiar? That's because item 3301 has the exact same stats, though without the active attached.

The short cooldown of Murksphere, pared with the fact that most of the enchanter's "enchanting" skills are less than the cooldown, would mean that the enchanters would have to actively engage in combat in order to gain gold, yet in a way that synergizes with their build path(globe of trust built out of forbidden idol) and playstyle. The potential issues are that you would be unable to make an eye item out of it, as it already has an active(however, that would also cement it as the pure support item, built for going with item 2045), and the fact that an extra sheild, with nearly Karma's lvl 1 streangth, might make it overpowered(though changing it to be based upon target's lvl would work, as not to be overbearing lvl's 1-3)

As for the quest, I personally like the idea of giving the support's a shield whenever an ally that they shielded or healed took damage, up to half of the effect(or a max of 300?) that stacks(if multiple allies affected and taking damage, stronger shield for the enchanter), but wears off after a while(sort of like item 3072, but instead of refreshing upon doing damage, it refreshes upon an shielded or healed ally taking damage). An enchanter protects the team, should the team not do the same for them? (It just seems that it would be fitting*[slayer-jinx-wink]* )

If the gold gen is used off cooldown, and having it be used fully each time(both happening is slim), isn't even that far off the other items. It would place the gold gen at 60g per min, with 100% being earned actively, compared to item 3303's of 60g per min(taking into account the passive 2g per 10), item 3302's range of 50-82g(2 castor minions - cannon minion+melee minion and the 2g per 10) per min, and new coin's ~76g(depending on drops and finalized value, with the 2g per 10)

This would also free the coin to be directed fully to the likes of Blitzcrank Thresh and Rakan, instead of them having to share a gold gen item with a class that wishes to position in a completely different way than them.

If you survived that massive wall of text (I ONLY MEANT IT TO BE A FEW PARAGRAPHS! WHAT HAPPENED?! щ(ºДºщ) ), thank you for reading through all my rambling.

Even if using the Murksphere and derivatives isn't feasible due to data you collected during the BMB, or you can not think of a way to balance it to use in today's League, I urge you to look into a support item for the enchanter's that does not force them out of their play pattern so massively.

Sincerely, And enthusiastic god **support ** of the rift.

Terozu2 votes

Lulu is mainly a poke support, why were u building coin on her?

Oelyk3 votes

I like the prospect of happing support auto attacks being more interesting besides procing spellthief and bandit gold, but I am a bit concern that you included Annie in that list... Will the changes actually buff her mid because I have concerns that it may make her laning phase more oppressive than it should be for an immobile late game AOE nuke mage. (I play Orianna and I know the power of her auto attacks, not only is it good against pet type champions(Zyra, Malzahar) because it does 2 bars of health, but trading auto attacks early almost always goes in your favor due to a self shield, which Annie has.)

RiotMeddler9 votes

The changes to Annie shouldn't be too power impacting. They're about better aligning her model's animations with when her auto attacks actually get released. That makes the auto attack feel better, and does make it a bit easier to last hit with in particular, but shouldn't have any major effect on Annie's ability to bully during the laning phase.

Urane King2 votes

Are you considering on removing the awkward cast time she has to do a basic attack?

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

Annie is a good midlaner. Please don't force her into being a support like you did with Zyra, Brand and Malzahar.

Morning Raven3 votes

So far I'm excited for the changes, though I play all the supports having AA changes so I'm mildly concerned what's gonna happen. If it's number changes I will worry to no end. If it's animation updates and bug fixes I'm a happy camper.

RiotMeddler5 votes

You'll be a happy camper then.

iahim983 votes

Are the auto changes also affecting the skins of those champions, as I know skins usually have a slightly change in auto animation ,which makes them feel better or worse, for instance I like the auto of classic zilean, but blood moon zilean auto feels worse (sluggish, awkward, hard to describe the feeling).

Spyglass3 votes

As an ADC player, Nami already has a super sexy auto-attack animation, and it flows well into her spell rotation. I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little worried ya'll are gonna break it by poking something that doesn't need fixing.

Take a Nami main's word before mine, of course - but I know I'm not alone in thinking fishtits is an excellent auto-attacker as is.

RiotMeddler4 votes

Yeah, Nami's in a pretty good place. What we've currently got in for her is making it so her E triggers her crit if self cast and timing changes to her crit anim to make it line up correctly with missile launch. We'd also like to get some better hit VFX and sound timing polish in for her too, though those aren't in yet.

Zielmann2 votes

One more thing, regarding Ancient Coin: Why are the drops reliant on allies killing the minions? This pretty much goes against the whole idea of allowing supports to have more agency. I'm a support main playing in silver, and I really don't like the thought of my own income being tied directly to my carry's ability to farm. Why not just make the drops come from minions who simply aren't killed by the carrier of the coin?

Or am I just misreading "killed by anyone other than you"?

RiotMeddler7 votes

Coin can work on any enemy minion that dies you didn't personally kill. Your ADC's ability to last hit shouldn't matter in that regard as a result.

TwoFingrPeekaboo2 votes

Hey Meddler! Any thoughts about sivir right now? Her core item is pretty bad rn and she is hard bullied by the bork rush that's so popular rn. The crit changes also don't help her amazingly well.

TNing of Pine1 votes

What even IS her core item these days? (Sivir is my main but it's been so long since I played regularly that I'm still getting used to not rushing item 3072!)

Redesignated3 votes

item 3508

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

item 3508 item 3031 item 3046 is her core. That being said it takes so long to build she kinda feels pointless.

champagnearci72 votes

You won't reply to me as usual but let me try again: Any thoughts on Ryze? Nearby changes or atleast just thinking about how could you change it? I think he is not in a good spot and he is not going to be seen anymore with tanks update.

ºˉ GeMıNı2 votes

heimerdinger? .... HEIMERDIGNER? you're such a tease. item 3070 Heimerdinger

Predatorator2 votes

Hey Meddler, is Skarner still eligible for some work during the midseason? i'm talking about a power-neutral change aimed at making him less dependent on the spires.

To give more context, there was the intention to do some work on him during last preseason, to address such issues. but we got no news since then, so i was wondering if there was still the intention to do something...

robotmaster1 votes

So the coins drop by ancient coin would work like thresh's souls? If so how often would they drop? I just ask because i want to know how often I would need to zone them off from said coins.

RiotMeddler5 votes

Similar to Thresh souls yeah. One or two a wave generally, with which type of coin it is alternating.

MrBuffington1 votes

Do you know about how long the coins will remain on the field?

Do you think the incentives are sufficient at this point? It does seem a bit undertuned to me; gold gain seems equivalent or even less than the live Coin, and especially with the auto attack changes, I can easily see myself moving to spellthief's on supports that are generally a bit more passive, especially Soraka with her longer AA range and Q harass.

Thanks

RiotMeddler4 votes

15s at present.

Rewards per coin have seemed solid so far, still testing though.

Penta Penguin1 votes

Is there anything you can do to nerf / discourage AD Thresh?

RiotMeddler5 votes

What's the issue you're feeling there out of curiosity? As far as I know he's not on our radar at all as a thing that happens regularly let alone a problem to solve.

Penta Penguin1 votes

Trust me

Hyrum Graff3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Giggle Physics,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=WhvEcI3v,comment-id=001b00000000,timestamp=2017-04-18T23:43:36.098+0000)

Trust me

This response is not likely to get AD Thresh looked at.

Trust me.

h5LYF41Lam

[deleted]

Oelyk8 votes

Respect is a virtue. Nothing on the PBE is permanent and if it turns out to be a really bad idea, they will not send it out live, hold your anger until something absurd goes live.

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