Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 20

RiotMeddler·Apr 20, 2017·1 votes·27,618 views

Morning all,

Mid-season work's going through it's final phases at the moment. We've got all the content on the PBE now from memory, though some of it still needs final balancing, bug fixing or asset polish still.

Rift Herald

Speaking of ongoing polish there's a lot currently going into the updated Rift Herald. As a heads up there'll likely also be a bit of further polish that comes in 7.10 as well. We've got some finishing touches that probably won't be ready for 7.9, so we'll be looking to get those in quickly after as a result.

Ivern

Unless anything significantly changes we'll be doing a balance pass on Ivern in 7.10. As mentioned previously 7.9 won't contain many individual champion balance changes, given both that the systemic changes will affect balance on most champs to some degree and that we're still very focused on finishing mid-season itself. We are starting to line up likely projects for the following patch however.

Starting Items for Passive Support Playstyles

One of the concerns we've seen expressed since we revealed the changes to the Ancient Coin line is that it's no longer a good option for a really passive playstyle. In terms of how you get rewards as a support that's very much intended, we want reward to be tied to action with a meaningful difference between good and poor choices, something old Coin didn't have. We certainly do want to ensure Coin feels like a good option on squishier ranged champs though, so will be tuning things like coin drop position and pick up radius to ensure trying to get them isn't suicide for non tanky champs. We'll also be watching champs like Soraka and Janna who often aren't great fits with Spellthief's to ensure they're not just left without a good starting item.

Non Gameplay Impacting: Feeney Art for Rakan and Xayah

A while back we put up a dev blog talking about Feeney art (light hearted temporary loading screen art for champions in development). More about it at the link below. Now that they're out we can also share the Feeney art for Rakan and Xayah for anyone interested, which was what we see loading into playtests for many months before the final splash art was done. As with the final splash art for duo the Feeney art was also made as one piece, then cut in half with that intent it would be shown side by side. That had the added little benefit of being a fun way to test that some code changes to ensure Xayah and Rakan were positioned appropriately on the loading screen worked as intended too.

http://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/2017/02/before-theres-splash-art-theres-feeney-art/

Rakan Feeney art: http://imgur.com/HmNAVpC

Xayah Feeney art: http://imgur.com/YyPmpFM

129 Comments

TormentulaApr 20, 20178 votes

Is skarner going to be looked into after midseason? He's been ignored during the jungle balance pass, never given buffs to handle the new jungle better, and the tank update hasn't really done him any favors besides buff better champions than him (and even made maokai new competition for picking). Even the itemization is much worse for him since banshee's no longer works for him, and he can't really ult the squishy mages because of their new banshee's.

KONO RUBICK DAApr 20, 20177 votes

i hope you do realise that according to LOLKING Lulu has close to 90% ban rate in master tier above while having ~~50% ban rate in plat+

why aren't you talking about her? it's been since 2 months her ban rate spiked while her win rate is high people are tired of playing against an overpowered champion

isn't the goal of league to balance the game and nerf overpowered champs? cause this logic doesn't seem to be applied to lulu, she's COMPLETLY INVISIBLE in your threads

https://youtu.be/kC2OZUzvif8?t=4641

her laning phase is TEN TIMES WORSE than malz, and malz gets nerfed first

i don't know how, as a support main, i literally don't know how to deal with a point and click 650 range nuke + empowered AA

and so do all those people baning her

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 201721 votes

We'll probably be considering Lulu in 7.10 too, though that's not quite as certain as Ivern and she's more likely to be affected by the 7.9 changes.

Lulu's also an example of a champion with very different perceptions by region. Her ban rate's really high in NA and EU for example, while from memory nothing out of the ordinary in Korea or Brazil. That doesn't mean she does, or doesn't, need changes, but it's important to consider when assessing both balance and player stated frustration.

ACENOXApr 20, 20173 votes

{quoted}

she's more likely to be affected by the 7.9 changes.

please meddler, can you explain to me what's going to happen to lulu in 7.9? i just want to know what can possibly affect her

Solidair3Apr 20, 20172 votes

she's not receiving individual changes, but support starting items are getting overhauled, so she'll be affected as much as the other supports.

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20173 votes

Yep. Support item changes will have at least some effect on champs bot lane in general. AD and defense item changes will also likely have at least some impact on different matchups, team comps etc. Think it's more likely than not we'll still want to look at Lulu, very possible though ecosystem changes mean we don't however.

SaphirexApr 20, 201716 votes

The last part of your statement. This need to be seen more by players who just complain about champion X and seeing just Winrate/Playrate from global statistics instead of regional statistics.

RedesignatedApr 21, 20172 votes

As a fellow support main, maybe you not being good enough to realize her counters and weak points doesn't mean she has none? Braum shield absorbs Polymorph, for example. Nami beats her hard during laning. She can only Polymorph or Whimsy one person at a time, meaning she's either leaning on debuffing or buffing hard, and if she's debuffing item 3222 item 3140 item 3111 .

The problem isn't really Lulu — she existed in her current state for a while and didn't see much popularity at all because of the meta around her. Then got hard nerfed into barely existing and BotRK got hard buffed into a priority rush. Surprise surprise, the one support (no Nunu doesn't count) that gives both attack and movement speeds off a single ability is suddenly higher in priority.

She was also a laning counter against Malzahar because of her passive's interaction with voidlings before this latest patch, where now a mild breeze counters him just as much. Lulu's further designed to be strong against aggressive diving, and with champions like Rengar Camille Khazix seeing high focus… Hell, bot lane is still the primary party lane since the bot turrets don't get any reinforcement like mid and top do.

The issue isn't Lulu. It's how she works well with people building something that already works too well itself, i.e. BotRK.

KONO RUBICK DAApr 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

As a fellow support main, maybe you not being good enough to realize her counters and weak points doesn't mean she has none?

which is why she is permabanned

sure

CàneApr 20, 20176 votes

I really wanna know when the promised rek'sai update will come. Also is there anything planned for kindred?

iahim98Apr 20, 20176 votes

Meddler, about nerfing Ivern, have you guys considered removing the second buff when Ivern or an ally kills red or blue, I know it was made so Ivern can give buffs to others, but a team having an extra blue and red seems like an unintended strength (especially early game, where no buff would be given) , it can simply be changed in the buff just dropping and have the person who wants it to channel for a bit (where do we even see those animations anymore).

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20175 votes

Doubling of buffs has been an intended strength on Ivern. It's not something extremely core to him certainly, so could be removed, at the same time though I suspect that wouldn't solve the cases we'll probably need to target (e.g. speed/ease of clear, invade power).

LostFr0stApr 20, 20172 votes

His invade would have less pressure if he wasn't threatening by bringing the double buff mid with him, or if he couldn't just cc the invaded jungler for 2 seconds (Q or Daisy which yields kill pressure) while he channels + instasmite the buff with them watching.

iahim98Apr 20, 20172 votes

My goal is that before nerfing his kit, you would remove 1st parts that are not his core. This change would create more situations where Ivern doesn't have access to the mana regen from blue and would help in reducing those strengths you mentioned, I also find annoying having to deal with a laner with blue/red just because they have Ivern.

As something that targets his invade power, how about taking twice as much to mark an enemy camp, or if the camp is attacked by someone (or just enemies), he needs to wait a few seconds before he can mark it.

LostFr0stApr 21, 20172 votes

Don't forget the cdr too; but I think they've tuned some of his cds for that.

I just wish that at least the range nerf to his brushmaker had gone through or that they made it scale with rank or level for lategame.

A 1600 range 3s reveal substantially reduces the risks of invading early.

WinterkillApr 20, 20176 votes

@Meddler

I just don't understand why the team and you think changing the support starting items is going solve all of the problems with the role. You changed the support starting items a few years ago and the gold income. None of those changes solved the problems with support role. You added more shield/heal enhancing items into the game in an attempt to make the role more interesting. The problem is it made enchanters like Karma, Janna and others do nothing but sit and the back and not be interactive. Boring gameplay and lazy work on a role that is already lacking interaction and gameplay. I just don't think your Development teams or you understand what the real problem is.

The support itemization is terrible and is not every interactive. Other roles have all of these neat items that do a bunch of different stuff . . . and all supports have are 4 or 5 items that increase the effectiveness of shields and heals.
Your past work on supports was very lazy. At least with new support champions, you are doing their heals and shields in a different way that makes it more interactive and unique. There is no distinction or really any interesting gameplay between Karma, Janna, Lulu, and Sona mechanics. They are all very bland in terms of champions, build the same items, and their kits are eerily familiar. To this day I do not understand why you removed Karma's shield bomb . . . that would have made her stand out amongst other enchanters and even some midlaners. Janna and Lulu seem like a missed opportunity . . . . . with so much in their lore and what you can do with them . . . . you give us this . . . .

Adding a stupid quest system and changing the starting support items is not going to solve the problems with the support role. You know what the issues are. You just don't care. I can sit here and suggest so many ideas for new support items and changes to existing champions to make them more unique, but you wouldn't care. Players have been telling you this for the past few years and you seem to think the only thing that needs attention is, yet again, the starting items. Please listen to the community.

How do you think adding mundane little quests to support starting items is going to solve the problem and make the role more interesting? We are still going to have a role that is not very impactful, the itemization is still bland with a ton of heal/shield enhancing passive attached to it, and almost all of the champions build alike and have the same kit. It just seems like you don't care about the role . . . since you keep pushing it back for another tank, adc, or ad role update. The support role needs the next gameplay update. I am sorry . . . . . there is more wrong with the role than just the starting items, you think is the exact problem.

TomekszApr 20, 20175 votes

Hi Meddler! Quick question, is Urgot rework going to be released before the next new champion?

Casual SkarnerApr 20, 20175 votes

@meddler any news for skarner? its been a year since the followup post PD: PLEASE

Onkel MalteApr 20, 20175 votes

Love to hear that Janna 's autos and her starting item are going to be adressed, her short AA range makes item 3303 a bad pick for her.

Just wanna leave itt there, that a few people still want a Malzahar revert like with Kog'Maw and I hope you might take it nto consideration.

rtbf225618241Apr 20, 20171 votes

As an experienced Janna main, i can't really say her basic attack range is short. It's more medium-ranged but it surely puts her at risk. I use it on enemy champions to proc the Bandit mastery and get extra gold.

It just takes skill but without Bandit, it's pretty useless so yeah.

Onkel MalteApr 20, 20173 votes

I can also say I'm experienced with Janna. Her range isn't necessarily small but besides Morgana and the newly added Rakan she's got the lowest of all the controllers which makes poking/trading uneffective because....well she will always get the short end of the stick.

SpideraxeApr 20, 20174 votes

And before anyone asks Meddler about Leblanc, Ricklessabandon noted they'll look at her again after midseason https://www.reddit.com/r/LeBlancMains/comments/639why/comment/dfsivea

Malicious MetalApr 20, 20174 votes

So, with a lot more champions picking up Gunblade and basically using it for the exact same reason DFG was being used (another burst spell on a low cd on an already bursty kit) do you have any plans on nerfing it?

Something I always thought was out of place was the active only scaling off AP and not having a dual scaling.

Anyways, I personally think if it were to become overbearing when built on mages for example the active should be the first thing worth looking at.

DonnieDarkinApr 20, 20174 votes

So can we address the cancer that is Graves? He does too much too well. I don't think anyone can argue against that. So why does he remain the way he is? Oh also, reducing his magic resist wont do a damn thing.

Nausicäa Apr 20, 20173 votes

Regarding the new Banshee's Veil, how is giving every mage spell shield not terrible for the game? It will stifle aggression in the mid lane and totally screw over long cooldown/combo mages. In addition to that no one likes playing against spell shields, they are anti fun/annoying.

DethflashApr 20, 20172 votes

Any burst mage champion will become almost non existent after the banshee's changes. So Annie, Syndra, Anvia to name a few champions who i expect to see a win rate drop, if the banshee's changes go through as they are now on the PBE.

Martian SpartanApr 20, 20173 votes

I just wanted to thank you guys (and will soon on the boards) for the udyr changes. I finally can feel the scaling, and can make an impact without being ahead. ty so much for listening to feedback! :)

The Yetii RiderApr 20, 20173 votes

Okay Meddler, so I can understand Janna's incentives...somewhat. She has to burn her shield cooldown and some mana to pick up gold (probably just leaves the mana gems alone because it wouldn't even cover the cost of her E) but what is Soraka supposed to do with this new coin? 325 MS, can't heal herself, her Q gives her MS when she's running away and not towards...

Plus these very obvious coin drops just seem like they're going to make Blitz/Thresh/Leona so easy to bully with. You see a Coin drop and you sit and wait. Either they don't go for the coin or they do and you grab them and murder them. I suppose that's a bit more "interaction" but it hardly seems fair for the sheer level of power that a hook ability has that early in the game. Especially since you intentionally made the ranged supports' base MS so bad to make getting hooked easier and more punishing.

KoriosApr 20, 20172 votes

It seems that the new Maokai is pretty underwhelming for some players, his main problems are: slow W, E doesn't do enough damage and his Ult is slow and worse compared to his old one.Any changes planned? Or is it too soon?

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20176 votes

We'll be paying a lot of attention to all three tanks getting updated. We don't want to react too strongly to initial feedback about the kits on paper though, that's gone poorly for us in the past. If he does turn out to be ineffective we'll jump on that quickly, do want to distinguish between actual ineffectiveness and concern that some things look weaker however.

KorZodApr 20, 20171 votes

Rioter GreaterBelugaWhale said that Mao's W was bugged. Can you clarify what the bug is?

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20177 votes

We've been testing a version of Maokai W that starts slow but accelerates quite rapidly as he travels. Still deciding whether we'll ship that or go back to the speed of 7.8 Maokai W. What's on PBE at present however is bugged in that it's the slow starting speed and no acceleration, leading to a bunch of non functional situations. Definitely won't be shipping that version.

LongHair FoxApr 20, 20172 votes

I can understand the plan is for him to be a jungler, but what will you do if he turns out to still be a better top laner even after the changes? Are you gonna tune him to force him to jungle or are you fine with top lane maokai?

EndlessSorcererApr 20, 20172 votes

I doubt he'll be a competitive jungler.

His W travels so slowly that attempting to use it on anyone who isn't greatly overextended is just going to take you underneath their tower.

Tank junglers have traditionally had issues with their clear-speed (which have only worsened since they reworked the jungle) which allow other champions (i.e. Graves, Lee Sin, Ivern) to out-farm and out-pressure them without contest.

LongHair FoxApr 20, 20172 votes

I agree with you. There is the bug on pbe making w slower than it should be, but ganking lb is gonna be hard even with a faster w and the range is very low for a jungler. But the developer on him said they wanted to move him to the jungle so that is why I am asking what their plan is if he under performs in jungle relative to top.

DragonSheaApr 20, 20172 votes

420

Smoke weed today.

But in all fairness I am a bit disappointed by the lack of tanks getting a rework for the mid season update. I am guessing that the MSU is there to lay the foundations for the Rammus, Malphite and other future VGUs are coming up.

megadethfishApr 20, 20172 votes

A while back (if i recall correctly) they mentioned that they wanted the champ focus to be:

Focus on Vangards (hard initiation types, hence mao, zac, sej. Though i feel more fit the build here but thats ok...)
They did recognize that there were more but they didnt need major overhaul and can be worked out in smaller patches or didnt want to wait for this patch for the changes to hit. (however rammus would have been a good one to change).

Side note, MASSIVE item changes I think made the champ updates limited. If they changed this many items AND a bunch of champs, play testing/balancing would be even crazier than I'm sure it already is. I'd expect the smaller tweaks to other tanks following this major update due to the scale of item changes. Then again, that's just my input.

Rengar Top LaneApr 20, 20172 votes

@Meddler May some changes be made to Rengar to push him from the bruiser Rengar playstyle/tank renlgar playstyle instead of keeping assassin Rengar in the shadows the entire season? Old Q can be balanced by making the aa portion not crit, W heal removing %heal would also make people not want to build bruiser to abuse heals in extended fights. Ult crit removal and bringing back true vision of all targets OR he can see the targets he's already hunted because he remembers their scent.

CabruhApr 20, 20172 votes

Hey Meddler ive been asking this for awhile with no responses :(. Will Heimerdinger get any love this patch? He's spent quite some time in the gutter. I can hear him yelping "EUREKA" every time a patch bites him in the ass.

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20173 votes

Very unlikely we make Heimer changes in 7.9. He's a slower burn project at the moment, with mid-season related stuff taking priority.

xScarfyApr 25, 20171 votes

Since Heimerdinger is likely going to be looked at after the mid-season may I request a little quality of life buff: I noticed that caster minions stay right on the max edge of his turret range, so would it be possible to increase the range of his turrets just a tiny little bit, so that caster minions don't outrange the turret by 1 pixel?

IS1c1c176269cfdfApr 20, 20171 votes

Hey Meddler. Any news on the Lissandra passive front? The recent buff to her was pretty underwhelming IMO, so I'm guessing you still have something planned?

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20174 votes

Nothing in the short term at least. There's still need for improvement there, but it's less pressing than other work.

Overlord ForteApr 20, 20172 votes

As an overall direction, has something along the ideas of 'growing permafrost' come up? That is, Lissandra gradually covers terrain in the area around herself through [mechanic here], gaining or modifying [stats/mechanics here]. She's an odd ball in the control playstyle line up in that her diving threat is her biggest selling point, not so much what she does otherwise.

Lord DesertApr 20, 20171 votes

Could we get some additional intel regarding the upgraded Queen's Tribute and EmPoro's Favor? Havnt seen any infos about them :/

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20173 votes

What info in particular?

Lord DesertApr 20, 20171 votes

Can you gain the 650 Gold with the Tier 1 item and then upgrade to tier 2+ and instantly get the reward?
"Reward: Favor is upgraded to Emperor's Favor and you receive an Elixir of Skill." "upgraded to Emperor's Favor" sounds like an upgraded Favor, like you get more Mana/gold/better drop rates or something like that

It could be that the info just didnt got discovered yet and is already present on the PBE?

RiotMeddlerApr 20, 20172 votes

Yes, you can get to 650g and then buy T2 and immediately complete the quest.

Emperor's Favor gives Gold/Mana on champion take down in addition to Favor's effects.