Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 23

RiotMeddler·May 23, 2018·1 votes·56,035 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

Jungle Follow up

We've been looking at the state of the jungle after 8.10 and have some follow up changes going into 8.11. Details of what and our thinking below, we’ll also look at things again once the 8.11 changes are out.

Scuttle

One of our goals was to make Scuttle more of a focus for attention by giving it around the same amount of gold/XP as a regular camp (starts a bit lower, scales harder, same ballpark though). We think that the value per Scuttle is now in an appropriate place, but that the combination of that increased value with the current respawn timer results in Scuttle control influencing a bit too much of a jungler’s time.
We’re reducing Scuttle respawn rate as a result (2:30, instead of 2:15), then increasing Scuttle shrine duration to keep similar total shrine availability time (90s, was 75s)

Other camps

Then putting a small amount of XP scaling into non buff camps (Wolves, Krugs, Gromp, Raptors) to account for lower Scuttle Xp availability

Runic Echoes

Our changes to Runic Echoes are part of our work to allow a wider variety of champions in a range of positions. Runic changes were intended to be around power neutral for existing AP junglers as a result, while making the jungle somewhat more doable for many AP champs who've struggled to jungle historically.
Changes ended up being somewhat power down however. Addressing that in a couple of ways with the most likely being build path (potentially Fiendish Codex instead of Lost Chapter to allow an earlier component spike) and raw combat power (70 AP instead of 60 AP)
We’re still discussing whether or not Runic Echoes should get Movement Speed back or not as a separate issue. We stripped it off because of how it’s most effective on a subset of AP champs (assassins and those who clear really fast), which fights against our goal of getting a wider range of AP champs into the jungle. Getting it back is very frequently requested by the users of the previous version of Runic Echoes though.

Balance on champs who mainly jungle (in response to both 8.10 changes and just general balance)

Xin Zhao - lowering scaling damage (AD/level) and gank reliability (E slow %). Looking to keep early damage and dueling power intact.
Graves - less early AA damage, potentially another change.
Lee Sin - Got hit by the yellow trinket CD/duration change. Making it so his ability reactivations interact as you'd expect with CDR and giving him a bit more energy from his passive late game.
Kha'Zix - Changing R adaption back to granting additional duration and cast rather than invis on touching brush.
Elise - Increased base MS and human W damage.
Possibly a few more champs (e.g. might be small buffs to Kindred, Yi, Nocturne, Diana).

Still Investigating

At time of writing we're also looking at how jungler gold and XP over time in 8.10 compares to 8.9, with potentially some further additions to the coming patch in response.
Jungler XP early is down, which was intended, given one of our primary goals was to reduce jungler influence on lanes early game. Depending on the champ it's taking between 8 and 14 minutes to catch up to prior XP levels. XP later in the game is then up, with on average around +250xp at 20 mins and +525xp at 35 mins. Talking about whether it's taking too long to get back to parity and whether increased late game XP is or isn't the best place to have power added.
Jungler gold is down over the course of the game, with on average -100g by 20 mins and -200g by 35 mins. That decrease is gold is consistent with the other positions however, who’ve seen very similar drops. That’s due to the changes to the bounty system.

Graph of those changes below. Forgive the somewhat hard to follow nature of these, this is just a screenshot grabbed from our internal tools rather than something that’s been tidied up for wider consumption like some of the other graphs we show.

https://imgur.com/P5vl6yp Given that’s a bit of a mess of lines, here’s another pic with just a few champs (Amumu, Graves, Kha’Zix) on it: https://imgur.com/a/KPgqBBf

New Cursor

Has been testing pretty well. We’ll get it onto PBE in a couple of weeks or so to start gathering wider feedback. Since it’ll still be a work in progress some things may be rough or experimental still (e.g. we’ll probably still be trying different approaches for how the cursor reacts when you mouse over an enemy target).

321 Comments

KowalczykMay 23, 201828 votes

Thank you guys so much for doing these! There's not a gaming company out there that has more feedback, communication, and transparency than Riot, and even the smaller stuff like this has a massive impact on this. You guys rock, keep it up

armatsuMay 23, 201811 votes

sorry again... BUT WHERE IS ZYRA CHANGE? Should we wait for it in 8.12?

RiotMeddlerMay 23, 20187 votes

Probably something on PBE today. We were looking at making plants briefly untargetable on spawn so that they didn't get immediately one shot by melee Zyra had rooted. Got some feedback from Zyra players that that removed their ability to spawn plants to stop skillshots however. Still looking at other approaches there. In the meantime we're testing increasing her root duration slightly at all levels (1.0-2.0, from 0.75-1.75).

DezyreMay 23, 201815 votes

Just make them invulnerable instaed of untargetable for the same duration?

VekknaMay 23, 20182 votes

I tweeted Rep with a really strong idea for a plant health fix.

Plants spawn with 24 hp that decays by 8 hp per second for two seconds. Upon enrage, plant health is reset to 36 hp that decays by 12 hp per second for two seconds

This is really the best compromise because it guarantees Zyra a functional baseline for plant damage while still leaving very high counterplay against dps beyond that baseline.

To further clarify, if a melee auto-attacks a vinelasher immediately after the plant spawns, the plant loses 8 hp and then automatically dies to decay after 2 seconds. If the plant spawns next to a fed Trynd or Yi, the plant will still probably die within one second. But in a 1v1 situation, immediate 1-shots will almost never happen.

Problem solved! Patch it in!

[poppy-wink]

5050BSMay 23, 20182 votes

I like the way you are going with this. I still think that melee should have to take at LEAST one hit from a plant spawned on them.

This would also fix the issue with MF one Shotting plants too.

VekknaMay 23, 20182 votes

The goal was to find a way for hits to still result in a dead plant. With the hp decay idea, hitting the plants isn't a complete waste, but the plant's death is still delayed.

The untargetable/invulnerable idea actually does waste attacks/skills, and forces enemies to time their attacks in a way that wouldn't feel fair to me if I was on the other side. I feel cheesed by Windwall and untargetability wasting my cooldowns, so I don't want other players to feel that way against Zyra.

When it comes to Zyra, she is frustrating to lane against long before she's actually overpowered. Fixing plants in a way that adds frustration is going to backfire and further increase the gap between her objective power level and enemy perception.

I wish they would just give this a try and see how it plays out. I feel really confident that Zyra mains would be satisfied by it, and it would still leave a big chunk of the counterplay that Rep wanted to add with the seed refund buff.

Feel ApathyMay 23, 20181 votes

Why not have her plants start with a shield with double HP that decays over the course of 0.75 - 1.5 seconds?

5050BSMay 23, 20182 votes

Because melee attacks are so fast. Then you have champs like Yi

Making them Invulnerable for 1-1.5s or just give them HP and Resists like Dingers Turrets.

Harry iL MaGoMay 23, 20186 votes

Buff support Zyra, ignore mid Zyra. item 3070 [zombie-brand-facepalm] Still waiting some reverts to Zyra in 2118 kappa*[slayer-jinx-unamused]*

meteorbreakerMay 23, 20183 votes

It seems like a change. But the problems do not decrease every time and new ones appear. Again, support comes first. I agree she needs a revert. The old Zyra could again try to back to the solo lane. And no longer rely entirely on plants, but start solving her problems.

VekknaMay 23, 201810 votes

Three questions:

From a design standpoint, why are ADs and AD-hybrids the only champs who can convert their health to damage stat (atma's), damage to health (LS, DD, GB), and damage stat to damage reduction (spear) via the item system?
What is the rationale for excluding pure AP/magic damage champs from these item systems when there are many such champs that are similarly- or identically-situated to their AD fighter/jugg counterparts? (eg Diana, Cho, Elise, Nid, Kat, Galio, Zac, etc). If range is to blame, how do you justify access to items like Spear on Jhin, MF, Draven, Lucian?
The combination LW total pen, more lethality items, BC, kit shred, etc. is going to break a lot of AD champs next patch. Are you prepping hotfixes for when these predictable problems arise? Are you at all concerned about the combination of Spear/DB/BC/LDR on champs like J4, Wukong, Jayce, Vi, Rengar, Zed dealing true damage to targets with 150-220 armor?

RiotMeddlerMay 23, 20189 votes

One update since this was written - we're pulling the Elise buff from 8.11 and instead buffing Runic Echoes more (+20 AP, instead of +10). Thinking there is that there are far more AP junglers in need of help than not, so better to bring up the baseline, and therefore Elise too, through item strength than to just buff her widening the gap more between performing and non performing AP junglers.

DeadUnbornMay 23, 20186 votes

Hey former d5 jungler with 5 years of exp. Wanted to share some insights with you in case they are useful:

AP junglers:

The problem with AP jungler viability isn't runic echoes. You can fix that by having talisman give mana regen on the jungle based off the damage a champion deals to monster +base manage regen per second fixes (and mana regen passive fix one item is completed)
The reason AP junglers aren't viable is that their base stats make them have weak clears and be susceptible to jungle invades. For example I tried jg liss and couldn't clear 3 camps with her.

Scuttle:

Spawn timers is a step in the right direction. However a better improvement would be to only have the second scuttle spawn be randomized and after that alternate between bot and top.
There might be a better solution to what I suggets, but the takeaway from my point is that having total random spawn timers feels bad because junglers want to be startegic and optimal gank/clear pathing can't be changed by checking where the scuttle will spawn. Rather, you either get benefited or screwed without being able to change your strategy (think of when you introduced bounty indicators but removed them because optimal target selection didn't change because of it)

XyltinMay 23, 20185 votes

I find that a bit concerning.

I think +10 AP is a good first buff and the Elise buffs (the MS back especially) makes a lot of sense.

But the larger thing is that Runic echoes might actually beat Ludens now for mid laners. +20 AP for no cost increase is huge. We know that smite mid does work, even when it is slightly weaker right now. With +20 AP this could change.

I also think that the AP junglers that have problems also have some problems even before they get to runic echos. Even the good early game elise doesn't have such a good early game anymore. Buffing the item will give them a ~12 minute power boost, but they will still have the problems before.

You are trying to do the same thing as you had with the %MS. Too much power in the jungle item, not enough in the champs. Even when the MS looked ok, it was a huge thing making up for your boots. %MS is very cost efficient on most items and so it was on Runic echoes, but this stat is still very, very strong for some champs but without the item the champs were not really good.

Go back to 70 AP and try to buff the AP junglers instead directly. That is a way better thing to do even when it costs more time.

CoronetMay 23, 20189 votes

You talked about possible changes to Malz Malzahar a while back in reaction to the changes to early mana items.

Anything new on that front?

He's been mostly used as an ult bot for several patches now (see recent MSI, building Shurelya's, etc.), instead of being AP carry, and his early game is even weaker now.

I nid a leeschMay 23, 20187 votes

Ooh Nidalee got ignored once again, but lets just pretend she's a good champion for another 2 years.

FlemmanMay 23, 201815 votes

nida fall in the "ryze type" pool of champion that, when you lend her a hand, she take the arm :p

Riot not touching her after only one patch on new jungle is understandable, probably the reason ult reliant jungle (aka most tank) aren't touch this patch since maybe xp change will make them suffer less

Risen29May 23, 20187 votes

You just need to bite the bullet and create two AP jungle items, just as we have two AD jungle items.

Trying to make a one sized fits all AP jungle item is a foolish goal that will never work because AP champions are as diverse as AD ones.

Make one with movement speed but do something else with another one.

Rock4May 23, 20187 votes

Why are you pushing AD assassins to the meta?

total penenetration on last whisper (minimum 98 armor to avoid true damage @lvl18)
nerfing adc's base armor
nerfing waveclear of mages
nerfing base vision for everyone (trinkets)
Spear of Shojin let them safer teamfight dives
increasing snowballing in the game

Im mediocre player and bad analyst but I dont want to play a game where champions such as Zed, Kayn, Talon or Yasuo are most powerful in the game

MakeItEasy4LolisMay 23, 20186 votes

Are there any plans to buff phoenix udyr? Atm only tiger is played, and at the UdyrsMain discord we accept that It would be nice to nerf a bit tiger which is excelling a bit but buffing Phoenix which isnt played actually. W would be pleased if anyone from the Balance Team could join and talk about him a bit(as it has been done with other champions) as we are a big community.

Solari FortuneMay 23, 20186 votes

Isn't it always swapping on which form is the OP one? I remember it was Tiger for a long time until Phoenix got some buffs and that whole high speed ZZ'rot phoenix thing or whatever it was was popular and Tiger was never used and now it back to Tiger > Phoenix

Man that guy really needs a rework

MakeItEasy4LolisMay 23, 20183 votes

he just needs some tune up, not a rework. Something like Zac-scale changes back then when the tanks "rework". He is the same just some changes.

ShadowParkerMay 23, 20184 votes

That was a rework though? Zac got an entire ability changed.

SeeKerŻMay 23, 20186 votes

Hello Meddler,

You talked about possible Fizz changes on his W after mid season. Is this a thing/is this still planned ?

RiotMeddlerMay 23, 20189 votes

We're still planning to look at Fizz W. I'll see if we've got a tentative plan on exactly when yet and let you know if so.

RiotMeddlerMay 23, 201810 votes

Update: Hoping to look at it sometime in June. Not sure yet what that means in terms of what changes/when they'll ship, but can probably at least share an update mid-late June as a result.

MekbotMay 23, 20186 votes

Also instead of just one cursor, why not add a few and let people decide?

Solari FortuneMay 23, 20185 votes

Alright I missed last weeks so I came here ASAP

Thoughts on Zeke's for it does seem to be getting picked A LOT. Even junglers are taking it to buff the adc up.

pepetecabalgaMay 23, 20184 votes

You talked a while ago about buffing Sejuani. You still want to buff her? What would you buff then?

RiotMeddlerMay 23, 20189 votes

Should have buffs for Sej in 8.12. We were originally looking to get them into 8.11, need for 8.10 followup pushed them down the list though so they got moved back a patch.

PowerOfDrainAgeMay 23, 20184 votes

Any progress (and info) on the Ryze rework? Is it even happening at this stage? I used to believe the deadline was 8.11

RiotMeddlerMay 23, 20186 votes

We're pulling both the Ryze and Azir changes. We're not confident enough they'll come together quickly enough/won't need a fair bit of followup. Putting time elsewhere instead as a result.

Sir PoodleMay 23, 20185 votes

Is it scrapped, or might it be revisited in the future when it's not midseason and there's more time? The changelist for Ryze especially seemed good.

skillshotsRcoolMay 23, 20182 votes

I'll give you props for not ruining them further, but that doesn't change the fact that their current state is unacceptable. I hope that the people responsible for it manage to start actually balancing the game one day. Until then I'll spend my money and time somewhere else.

Rayray McRayMay 24, 20182 votes

Does that mean the complete "give-up" on Ryze like you mentioned?

RyzeTheSmurfMageMay 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

We're pulling both the Ryze and Azir changes. We're not confident enough they'll come together quickly enough/won't need a fair bit of followup. Putting time elsewhere instead as a result.

Ok but when do you think Ryze's is gonna come out? Also change his ult, that thing is the main reason Ryze is so hard to balance for both SoloQ and Proplay

Raz al GhulMay 23, 20184 votes

Is Amumu getting looked at for a rework soon? His passive is forgettable and he suffers from the same issue Alistar did before his updated E where once he does his initiation he doesn't do much aside from stand around an autoattack (well he mashes E and leaves W I guess) until his cooldowns come back up again.

ZerenzaMay 23, 20184 votes

I have a question regarding champions that you pushed out of the jungle.

Mostly the jungler's that can't duel pre-6.

It's become really hard to play any tank jungler's, assassin jungler's and mage jungler's because you lack any real way to fight back if an enemy duelist invades you, you have to rely entirely on your team to help you but as we know, in solo que it's not really something you should rely on.

Like, i think that increasing AP Jungler's ability to clear camps, as in, making them much more efficient at it would balance out Duelist jungler's ability to 1v1 early on, because they can't clear as quickly as their pre-6 enemies.

Kei143May 23, 20183 votes

How have the supports faired with shutdown gold going to the killer instead of the whole team?

RiotMeddlerMay 23, 20188 votes

Supports are down noticeably more gold than the other positions as you'd expect. Breakdown looks roughly like this at 35 minutes:

Top -325 Mid -260 Jungle -250 (though with the largest variance depending on the champion in question) Bot -250 Support -420

AppIeSauceEaterMay 23, 20186 votes

Can you share gold differential from various points in the game? Most games don't reach 35 minutes so seeing that number for 10, 15, 20, 25 for example would give us a better overall view of the story. I understand if you aren't able to share them, however. Thanks for all that you do!

FOR JUSTICEMay 23, 20183 votes

about that new cursor, will it finally not be tiny on a 4k resolution screen? or is that a seperate issue?

RiotMeddlerMay 23, 20188 votes

Yes, the changes will include 4k support. You'll be able to scale cursor size through the options menu.

Zoli BenMay 23, 20183 votes

Hey Meddler! I've heard Spear of Shojin might become melee only, will Urgot get some buffs? He could use some given he was not touched with massive Frozen Mallet nerf. He always is on the short end of stick because of marksman abusers...

RiotMeddlerMay 23, 20186 votes

Urgot's getting some buffs regardless, maybe in 8.11, maybe 8.12. Currently testing increases to base AS, letting W be cast during other spell casts and allowing him to move while he's grinding someone to death with R.

Spear wise, we'd like to keep it melee and ranged if possible to support users like Quinn and Urgot. That's assuming the activation radius is enough to avoid it being too strong on marksmen though. If that's not the case we will have to swap it to melee only.

Valor BotMay 23, 20182 votes

Spear wise, we'd like to keep it melee and ranged if possible to support users like Quinn and Urgot.

I love you.

LárxeneMay 23, 20183 votes

Won’t work on her regardless her range exceeds the radius.

But I’m happy about the mention at least :’)

atomicwitMay 23, 20183 votes

Remove the rng PLEASE!!!

It feels so bad and 1 minute is not enough to path properly

If you want people to contest it then make it a reasonable timer... so sick of enemy jg scuttler rng.... I'm at krugs and then it randomly spawns top... strategic role btw [slayer-jinx-unamused]

MARK the ground for the next spawn like you do for dragon

level 4 jg when lanes are 6 feels awful also

AimAssistMay 23, 20183 votes

I know you guys are trying to increase jungle diversity, which I'm fine with. But killing a core item for a group of champs to let another group to use it is not the way to do it. Right now AD junglers have 2 options ( item 1400 item 1412 Warrior and item 1416 item 1419 Bloodrazor) but the true AP junglers (excluding tanks) only have 1 item 1402 item 1414 . I propose keeping Runic Echoes as is and bring back Rune Glaive (upgraded from sheen) and pop the MS onto that instead. Both Elise and Evelynn even the Jungle Ekko s and Diana s can benefit from this upgrade while Fiddlesticks and the ones you are trying to introduce into the jungle like Zyra Morgana can still make use of the new iteration of Runic Echoes.