Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 15

RiotMeddler·Dec 15, 2017·1 votes·62,375 views

Hi all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Sightstone Tweaks

We've got some somewhat experimental Sightstone adjustments that should be coming to PBE in early January. Goal there will be to make it less of a burden on supports in terms of how much it limits their ability to build/choose other items. More details and rationale to follow next month.

Coming work on Kleptomancy

Sometime early next year, 8.2 most likely, we'll be doing a bit more work on how Kleptomancy procs. We want to reduce the difference between great and poor users of it somewhat so that we don't have to balance it until it's only a reasonable option for those best able to optimize it at present (mainly melee solo laners with short CDs fighting other melee, plus a couple of others like Ezreal). Might also need to drop its average power a bit too, with one of the current theories being that the amount of mana regen it offers may be a bit too high on top of the other benefits also given.

More thoughts on Klepto and how this change is testing during 8.2's development in January.

Minion Dematerializer

We're also working on minion dematerializer. Timeframe on that's uncertain, with work on Klepto and a new resolve keystone taking priority. One concept we're currently trying out that sounds intriguing at least is swapping it to an item that mind controls an enemy minion, giving you the gold/XP and converting it to your side. That's very experimental, so might not go anywhere, figured it was worth sharing to give some insight into the sorts of changes we're thinking about for that slot though.

Slow down as the holidays approach

We're getting close to the end of the year, with 7.24b (that's just gone out) our last patch until January. We'll be working on stuff for 8.1 for the rest of our time in the office in December, with some changes in response to how 7.24b lands. If anything looks exceptionally out of line we'll be assessing it as a possible micropatch candidate for next week so that it's not sitting in that state for longer than a normal patch cycle over the break.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

194 Comments

PsyrikDec 15, 201716 votes

Has there been any discussion or thought either in development of the runes or currently about getting rid of rune tree passive stats, and having some form of choosing which stats we want to take. For example going domination/resolve but taking attack speed as the stat boost?

It could be like a point buy system for AD/AP/AS/HP/Armor/MR

RiotMeddlerDec 15, 20179 votes

We've talked about additional changes to the raw stats from Runes as possibilities. There are some benefits to tying stats to trees picked though. Tree/stat combos are a balancing lever (if you want X rune, you need to be willing to take some of Y stat) which can let us offer certain effects in places where they're not as crazy on some users as if they also came with the most desired stats. Stats by tree also helps create more distinct identities/experiences between the trees.

That's not to say we'll never make any changes, it's something we're still actively talking about, with the upcoming Resolve HP/other tree stat split being a testing the waters as to the impact of one type of change. There are just some downsides to free stat choice in addition to the upsides.

ThrillØfTheHuntDec 15, 20179 votes

Any news on the Rengar changes?

Any plans?

Any goals/hopes?

Super pumped up to find out more.

RiotMeddlerDec 15, 20176 votes

Details to come in January once we're more confident in exactly what we're going with.

ThrillØfTheHuntDec 15, 20173 votes

Awww, is there nothing you can tell us at all, even what direction you want to take him in?

WiccanBKaplanDec 15, 20175 votes

Insert Captain America "Patience" Meme

Rengar Top LaneDec 15, 20174 votes

Praying old mains get to experience old Q again

CallMeExiledDec 17, 20171 votes

I have played rengar for years and he is fine. People who can not land a skill shot need to switch to a new champion. I one tricked him to masters. If they rework his q back to what it is. Ninja rabid will make him even shittier then he is now. Everyone cry’s about AOE, but look at Katrina. Stop crying everyone and get over it the skillshot.

ThrillØfTheHuntDec 17, 20172 votes

Q does about 20 dmg level 1, you use Q for the aa reset unempowered, not the damage, so your argument about it going back to a proper aa reset is quite diminished by that.

Q being AOE is great for jungle, shit for top, it paired with W autopushes the lane every time you trade with an enemy.

R is useless in lane now, no longer a combat ability. 2s delay before doing anything means it isnt viable in fights and the stealth is useless for escaping ganks, no fero gain means it's punishing as fuck if you dont hold the champions only key.

The rework was made for jungle rengar and topgar was completely forgotten.

XinyuoDec 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Q does about 20 dmg level 1, you use Q for the aa reset unempowered, not the damage, so your argument about it going back to a proper aa reset is quite diminished by that.

Q being AOE is great for jungle, shit for top, it paired with W autopushes the lane every time you trade with an enemy.

R is useless in lane now, no longer a combat ability. 2s delay before doing anything means it isnt viable in fights and the stealth is useless for escaping ganks, no fero gain means it's punishing as fuck if you dont hold the champions only key.

The rework was made for jungle rengar and topgar was completely forgotten.

Pretty sure they just didnt care since rengar top is about half as fun to play vs a teemo, and that says something

185147118 íííDec 16, 20174 votes

Do you think you or someone working on the Rengar changes could come to our subreddit to discuss with us about these changes ? Last time things went south but i think we could try again.
Thank you !

Piltover CustomsDec 15, 20176 votes

I know I'm late to this, just hoping you see it. What's the reasoning behind nerfing Heimers RQ by 50%? Especially late game? It already dies almost immediately late. It dies early to smite + auto (for ganking).

He was pushed to land skillshots (EW) in order to charge beams and now his ult beam is being halved early on? There is plenty of counterplay and what not to kill him/punish (once it's wasted they can return and get a free kill).

I posted in the gameplay thread a lengthy discussion about it but the tl;dr is that we mains think Heimer is fine/very mildly strong. No runes really help him other than the free zhonya (that anyone can get...). We've had lengthy discussions about it and think a 50% is absolutely broken in terms of the nerf, especially if it stays as weak (read: tanky) late game where it can be insta-gibbed and no one ever uses it late because of that. It's only used for laning phase to push down turret (read: zoning) or to turn a gank (and again that can be avoided).

Emo TwinkDec 15, 20171 votes

I heard it was to stop him soloing baron so easily, but it should just be capped damage against monsters instead..

Piltover CustomsDec 15, 20172 votes

Doesn't make sense. In order to charge laser turret you have to land E/W on champions not epic monsters. The beam would only fire one time during it's life when "soloing" baron.

Im A Gay FurryDec 15, 20174 votes

With regards to Dematerializer becoming a mind control item, Would the mind controlled minion give your opponent gold/xp as well? I feel that it shouldn’t or else your giving the opponent and extra minion in lane to cs.

RiotMeddlerDec 15, 20177 votes

Maybe 5g or something around that mark (as per other pets). Certainly not full gold/xp.

Ace of DrunksDec 15, 20174 votes

Hey Meddler,

Why were the Black Cleaver buffs canceled? They could be a nice compensation for some fighters that used fervor in old system like Fiora Riven Darius Kled Kayn Urgot

RiotMeddlerDec 15, 20177 votes

Combination of concern around changing too many things at once and that Black Cleaver buffs also help a number of champs not in need of further power. Might revisit the idea depending on how things look after these changes settle.

MansanaDec 15, 20174 votes

Mind control seems interesting. Have you explored Zombie minions and make it have a cool down? Weak but packs a punch to towers and champs? Would be interesting for split push champs... but then again it would kinda invade Yorick's identity. Another exploration would be to give a morale boost to minions around? Feel free to use.

ModThe DjinnDec 15, 20174 votes

{quoted}Minion Dematerializer

We're also working on minion dematerializer. Timeframe on that's uncertain, with work on Klepto and a new resolve keystone taking priority. One concept we're currently trying out that sounds intriguing at least is swapping it to an item that mind controls an enemy minion, giving you the gold/XP and converting it to your side. That's very experimental, so might not go anywhere, figured it was worth sharing to give some insight into the sorts of changes we're thinking about for that slot though.

That would be really interesting -- interesting enough, honestly, that I'd be rather sad to be limited to only six charges of that all game, since it has some really cool late-game potential. Just probably not enough to be worth an item slot.

Would there be some possibility of, since this is unlikely to need twitch reflexes in most situations, implementing this as a feature that doesn't occupy an item slot? Either with a clickable UI element, effect when you target a minion with your trinket slot, or something else? I'd personally love to see something like this on a cooldown, storing maybe 2 charges at a time, and usable throughout the entire game.

RiotMeddlerDec 15, 201717 votes

Version we're currently testing is a regular active item, reuseable/with a CD, that can be sold or upgraded into Banner or Zz'Rot.

SpideraxeDec 15, 20174 votes

Hey Meddler how are you planning on spending the holidays? Heading back to New Zeland?

RiotMeddlerDec 15, 20178 votes

I went back to NZ over the Thanksgiving break instead this year. My GF's parents are visiting for a few days for Christmas, we'll then probably spend a bit of time elsewhere in California, get of LA at least for a bit.

LaughingStaplerDec 15, 201710 votes

{quoted}

I went back to NZ over the Thanksgiving break instead this year. My GF's parents are visiting for a few days for Christmas, we'll then probably spend a bit of time elsewhere in California, get of LA at least for a bit.

The Corki nerfs seem really misguided and severe. Why attack the very thing he's picked for instead of simply making him more vulnerable in lane/to ganks? -12 AD late game is insane for an ADC. I don't see why he's getting such an undue focus... It seems like you guys were just dead set on hard nerfing him based on some assumptions about the impact of MR changes. Data such as winrate, banrate, late game performance, not picked/banned once at All Stars was hardly considered.

Calling him sleeper was pretty silly given that Corki is a very old champion with a decent playrate and has a predictable kit. Champions can be sleeper when new builds have been found for them, when most of the population is unaware of certain high impact mechanics or tricks, when their skillcap is extremely high, when people don't understand how the kit works together etc. To suggest that about Corki just because the data doesn't fit the assumptions and you guys wanted to believe a 46% winrate in Diamond+ during 7.21 was "balanced" is just ridiculous. This nerf will probably make him subpar and right back to a 48% winrate or worse in Diamond+.

His performance is good but this nerf is incredibly harsh at all stages and eats away at his niche on a patch that already indirectly nerfs him somewhat through matchups and runes. His late game winrate for a crit. ADC isn't even good. 50.5-48.5% late game is extremely underwhelming. That should be his best stage and it's average at best - probably because most games are decided by picks from CC and not just raw damage. He has to have amazing damage scaling to make it worth sacrificing CC. If not, he needs some kind of tweak to have utility.

more explanations in the links here: https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/ZAm3nfAc-corki-nerfs-blow-my-mind-if-they-go-through-given-the-ample-feedback If you guys read those arguments and still have the same opinion, I'll at least be at peace and consider it a fully informed decision.

ßiggie CheeseDec 15, 20176 votes

Alright... but wrong place to post this.

BiffsidiusDec 16, 20175 votes

Seriously, let the man talk about his girlfriend.

WDG DevourDec 15, 20172 votes

What is consensus on the state of Lucian?

One of the worst looking ADC right now.

RiotMeddlerDec 15, 201710 votes

I dunno, I think he's a pretty cool looking dude personally.

Power wise he could do with some work though certainly, offered in a way that doesn't force us to balance him around mid only like we had to recently. We did have someone looking at that earlier in December, top lane/fighter stuff for 7.24b ended up being the higher priority though so that investigation ended up on hold.

AdalvarDec 15, 20178 votes

I keep bringing this up and i apologize if i sound insistent on the matter, but the issue (one of them anyway) with ADC's like Lucian, Ezreal and MF is that they have their power laser focused on a small number of skills (Lucian passive, Ezreal Q, Miss Fortune R), leaving out one or more skills out of the loop (Lucian/Ez W), or leaving them in a state that twists their identity (Miss Fortune E).

This creates a scenario where the balance becomes a knife's edge between OP/UP or broken/useless due to fewer levers from which to pull from. And this has been the case so far with these 3 champions. Because of this, these 3 guys have been on patch notes chopping block multiple times and their balance swings like a pendulum.

So maybe, you guys should shift some resources to focus on a small restructuring of their kits, by giving them abilities, with an impact that can be measured and in turn drain the excess power from the problematic parts of their kits and leave them in a more stable condition and not have to deal with these headaches every 4 patches or so.

colesyDec 16, 20172 votes

the current dematerialiser is really good on lux right now since it allows her to reach the breaking point of damage where she's able to one shot casters so assuming you do change dematerialiser is there any way she can get little touch to her e to compensate for the loss of the rune if it ends up being changed? she feels really smooth to play for the first time in i don't even know how long and she's not exactly tearing apart solo queue or anything in her current state so i'd be sad to see her get thrown out of viability again.

GurkenatorHDDec 16, 20172 votes

Why exactly change Minion Dematerializer this way? It was the only rune actually being focused on waveclear by getting bonus %dmg to minions over the game and while it's not frequently picked, it's maybe also because some translations of its description suck. Why would you want a rune which only allows you to kill 6 minions without actual benefits? Its a translation problem, the %dmg is missing in the short description. Also it's a niche rune, as there are only a few champions who would benefit a bit of extra waveclear. The iteration you're talking about in the post however is not a waveclear rune, it doesn't really seem like a rune you could for example pick on any actual carry. So why not just adding an extra slot to the inspiration tree with this 'mind control' rune? It could be quite useful on some tanks who already take some stuff from inspiration (Singed for example).

lokiemoorMDec 17, 20172 votes

i think that the second mid tower should be more tanky. in most of the games i play the second mid tower goes right after the first one. say one team loses a fight 3 for 1. the team loses 2 towers and a lot of map pressure just for one fight. i feel like most games are decided from that point on....

Miku Hime samaDec 19, 20172 votes

Any news on when CertainlyT will give Sona her first successful rework?

Momo BiasedDec 15, 20171 votes

With the changes to resolve, is it likely that every tree gets a new keystone at some point?

Thanks for this post and the new patch by the way - the micropatch has been a great way to get changes out. I've seen rumours of bigger 4 week patches and smaller patches in between. If this is the way you end up going, I feel that 7.24B is a great example that it has worked!!

RiotMeddlerDec 15, 201724 votes

I suspect we'll end up with 4 keystones eventually in each tree. That's not a rigid rule we're aiming for or anything though, depending on what's needed and which rune ideas work out possible some trees get to 5 while others are still at 3 if the 3 is functioning well already. Domination seems to be in a pretty good state keystone wise for example.

wildfox99Dec 15, 20176 votes

Domination seems to be in a pretty good state keystone wise for example.

sure electrocute is what every assassin want,but don't you think it's making dark harvest too niche? i mean almost every player is taking electrocute over dark harvest,and for a good reason:

-both runes are played mostly by assassins

-assassins usually want to kill someone with 1 rotation and then backing for CDs,so having dark harvest dealing less damage than electrocute but resetting on kills is not a big deal

-some champion would take it,if dark harvest wouldn't be that unreliable...it takes about 25/30 minutes (if you are not hard snowballing,which is not so easy to do due the pre 150 stacks limitation if this rune) for having the dark harvest "upgrade",before that you can use it only 20 sec after you got a soul (making it far less efficient than electrocute),i know it is for not to abusing it early,but it actually scale in the late midgame when the game is almost ended and in many cases already decided contrary electrocute is more reliable (you can use it whenever you want,for example if you are going to rush,dark will be down when you reach the other lane,while electro will be still up) and deals more damage in every phase,even in lategame (unless the game doesn't last more than 45/50 minutes)

-so my point is that dark harvest takes more than half game for being relevant,and when you get more than 150 stacks it become just as good as electrocute is,while electro is good in every phase of the game

lowering its stack threshold from 150 to 100 would make it more viable without adding unneded damage

ßiggie CheeseDec 15, 20177 votes

IMO, having 15 keystones to choose from instead of 9 really made a big impact on how much I enjoy the game. Having 20 to choose from would be much appreciated! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Lisa WilbournDec 16, 20173 votes

Or it may be too much clutter, as much as I'd love more options.It'd be more keystones for new players to memorize, and then when people figure out the OPs, more keystones aren't going to be used.

CarnicoreDec 16, 20173 votes

Bring back Fervor of Battle please, the replacement is so bad on melees...

NeØDec 16, 20172 votes

Meddler, do you think Fervor of battle or an equivalent keystone will make its way back into the game? The removal of that keystone has left so many champs in the dust

FlixbubeDec 16, 20172 votes

thanks that riven still has no actually good rune :))))) and a ton of other toplane bruisers too, and no grasp will probably not be the solution if the resolve bonus stats keep being only HP and no ad/ap

FlixbubeDec 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I suspect we'll end up with 4 keystones eventually in each tree. That's not a rigid rule we're aiming for or anything though, depending on what's needed and which rune ideas work out possible some trees get to 5 while others are still at 3 if the 3 is functioning well already. Domination seems to be in a pretty good state keystone wise for example.

Never FF BoyDec 15, 20171 votes

I'd really like to know what is plan for Master Yi MasterYi . A lot of people want to know, please Meddler, can you give me what do you plan for him ?

Thank you !

RiotMeddlerDec 15, 20179 votes

I'll get some thoughts on Yi, Trynd, Heimer and Eve from the team for the next post. Been seeing multiple questions about each in different ways and haven't had the context to answer them sufficiently.

The Cane MasterDec 16, 20171 votes

When are DrMundo and Nasus going to get reworked?

zecastarDec 16, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Cane Master,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=TvU51dlV,comment-id=0047,timestamp=2017-12-16T01:57:50.247+0000)

When are and going to get reworked?

they don't need it

Chembaron YamadaDec 16, 20173 votes

Dr. Mundo is in extreme need of that VGU... kit, visuals, just everything is heavily outdated.

ΡenguDec 20, 20171 votes

he fits what he is supposed to be

he isnt outdated just yet

Chembaron YamadaDec 20, 20172 votes

Dude, I like Dr. Mundo, too. Am mastery 7 on that guy.

But let's admit it: his kit shows age. Almost all of his abilities are some form of passive effect he can trigger on demand, the only exception is his Q. W is a glorified sunfire cape with tenacity. E let's you deal more damage with auto attacks. R is an in fight Warmog's passive.

Hell, look what his passive is. It is literally just "I have more health regen than other champions". I think there is alot of potential for Dr. Mundo to be something great. And hopefully something that is not completely shut down by a 800g item. item 3123

Not to mention his visuals.... he looks like a cartoon character. He absolutely does not fit in the art style of LoL anymore.

And Riot seems to agree, there is a reason why this guy is on the tier 1 VGU list. He won't get it very soon, since they make a break from Zaunites because of Warwick and Urgot. But if that ends, he surely is top candidate.