Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 6

RiotMeddler·Oct 6, 2017·1 votes·43,649 views

Hi all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

7.21 Balance Changes

While most of our focus is on pre-season and beyond now we've still got some balance changes, or at least investigations, coming in 7.21 where we're confident changes won't be rendered irrelevant or inappropriate by pre-season's impact. Short versions of some of those below, more details to follow next week.

Likely buffs - Frozen Heart, Urgot (after assessing Sterak's change especially)
Likely nerfs - Sejuani
Possible buff - Manamune
Possible nerf - Azir (might be in an ok spot to just leave until pre-season and then reassess, unclear without a deeper look at him)

Why not buff ratios/nerf bases?

A regular question that crops up is why not just just nerf bases and buff ratios to make a champ who's weak outside of support more effective in solo lanes (e.g. Brand or Zyra as recent subjects of discussion). Sometimes that is the right approach, there are a number circumstances where something different could be better though including:

Often, as in cases like this, we don't want to impact a champ's power as a support. If we're just buffing ratios that buffs support too, if we're also nerfing bases that generally nerfs support, at the very least at some points in the game.
Ratio power is more snowbally than most other power, given its gold dependence. If you want to add snowball to a champ it can be the right call, if you want to add reliability it often isn't.
Adding power in other ways can be a good opportunity to add more distinction of playstyle between different positions (e.g. interaction with farming and therefore different skill testing)
Sometimes extra damage isn't the appropriate sort of power to add to a champion and ratio buffs aren't a good tool to offer some sorts of power (e.g. some things don't scale smoothly like ability resets, or have limits they shouldn't be pushed past like CC durations).

Our approach to micropatching

For anyone that hasn't seen it and is interested in how we're hotfixing more nowadays I'd highly recommend giving Maple Nectar's post from the start of the week a read. It goes into some depth as to why we're hotfixing more than we used to (TLDR = improved micropatch technology), why we do such patches in the first place and the trade off of reacting to problems quickly versus waiting on additional observations and data.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/AIzT2eu3-general-philosophy-on-balance-hotfixing

Trying different directions with a few runes

While we’re getting close to locking down all the runes for ship we’re still experimenting with somewhat different directions for a few to try and solve some remaining problems. Odds are high you’ll see alternate versions of some Runes, Press the Attack and Presence of Mind especially, on PBE at some point. Not guaranteed we’ll stick with the new versions of course, might try something new again or go back to the old.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

255 Comments

FütanariOct 6, 201718 votes

Where are the tower buffs?

ßiggie CheeseOct 6, 201716 votes

Meddler,

What about item 3003 ? Currently, item 3165 is out shining every other AP mana item - it's overloaded with stats and a powerful item passive. has a terrible build path at the moment, item 3070 has to built first and it grants 0 combat stats in which you have to farm with to buy item 1058 . After that, it is still another 1100g to complete item 3003 .

Why not reduce the cost to 2900 or 300 and/or change the build path to item 3070 + item 1026 + item 1052 ? I know there is some AP itemization changes coming up next season at some point, but why has item 3165 been allowed to be the one-stop-shop for mages needing mana for so long? Some minor changes are needed until then.

I like the playstyle of getting item 3003 on Ziggs , but I am forced to go item 3165 because it's too broken not to, the "late game" trade off for item 3040 is never worth versus just getting early on. item 3802 is also a large part of 's strength on top if it's crazy stats; the passive portion of plus the AP and flat mana it provides outshines item 3070 .

RiotMeddlerOct 6, 201715 votes

One other note: I'm still catching up on all the Worlds games from last night, so will probably spend time in the thread later in the day more than in the next couple of hours.

Linna ExcelOct 6, 201711 votes

Since you mentioned worlds, what do you think about ADCs getting an early item 3302 to help speed the gold gain of support?

While I'm personally not against it, I think it's a sign that supports in general are either too gold poor or that ardent and coin upgrades are just so important they have to be rushed.

RiotMeddlerOct 6, 20176 votes

As an occasional thing to help supports hit a particular power spike I think it's a really cool use of the item system. If it's quite common however it likely suggests some element of support itemization is out of line, in terms of how much power it offers early game, if marksmen should consistently be opting out of offensive itemization for themselves to get extra gold to their support. That certainly seems like the case here, given how impactful getting Ardent first in lane tends to be.

Anth895Oct 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

One other note: I'm still catching up on all the Worlds games from last night, so will probably spend time in the thread later in the day more than in the next couple of hours.

Speaking of worlds. Do you think Galio still needs more nerfs to get him out of proplay? Or are you gonna wait for that mini rework before doing anything. It's really disheartening as a Galio main to see him sitting in the bottom 5 of mid and top lane winrates while still being nearly pick or ban in competitive play.

RiotMeddlerOct 6, 20175 votes

I think he needs to be sharpened a bit so he's not such a consistently good pick, with clearer strengths/weaknesses game to game. That should help get him out of pick/ban in pro and allow us to put some more power into him for regular play.

In terms of changes we're looking at a bunch of number adjustments, not a mini rework (shifting power around rather than changing functionality).

Mysticman89Oct 6, 20172 votes

I have no idea how people stay on top of watching all worlds games when they have work/school.

A single day of worlds games can be like 8 hours of content (including pre/post game analysis), and I'm unlikely to be able to watch more than a couple hours on any given day, so it can almost be 1 week per day of worlds, meaning I very rapidly fall behind. I'm likely to make a point to watch the finals live (from my computer), but I feel like watching vods of the rest is likely to last me until spring.

PeachyKeen69Oct 6, 201712 votes

I really wish Riot would show Zyra some real love and consideration instead of just throwing their hands up in the air. Here are my two main issues:

1.) Zyra very commonly likes to take 15 magic penetration in runes. Her damage will be gutted from the runes work, both because she can't take these runes and also because it's harder for her to proc some of the new keystones. She absolutely needs some buffs to either her base damage on Q and E or she needs her AP ratios buffed on these spells (and I don't mean '5 damage added at each rank')

2.) Riot has said in the past that they will keep mid-lane Zyra viable. Zyra is a first and foremost a control mage. Like other mages (Brand, Annie, Malz), her CC and high damage has led her to be played botlane as support. The difference is, Riot made it a priority to keep champs like Annie and most recently Malz (primarly) viable as solo laners as they were meant to be. On the other hand, mid-lane Zyra is weak and Riot has not kept their word on making her viable mid-lane again. The most recent example of this is PBE buffs for runes--other mages are getting base HP buffs, but Zyra isn't.

Please, please do something to make Zyra viable again, pre-season will ruin her if not given the proper consideration.

Forhonor321Oct 6, 201710 votes

Good to see that you're taking Urgot into account for the Sterak change.

Also, I know preseason is looking towards new runes but are you possibly looking into maybe AP itemization as well? If not preseason, sometime afterwards in season 8?

RiotMeddlerOct 6, 20174 votes

We're planning to do a pass on AP itemization sometime early in Season 8. First priority will be getting pre-season stuff balanced and further polished, after that though we'll be looking at a few other things, AP items included.

warpenguin555Oct 6, 20176 votes

Will you guys look at Deathcap at all during that? It doesnt feel worth the purchase at all

Also are there any plans to nerf AD or Crit items? I personally feel like itemization is a big part of the reason marksmen are game breaking right now, mainly the zeal items

RiotMeddlerOct 6, 20177 votes

I expect we'll look at Deathcap yeah, agree it's too often not worth buying at present.

No current plans for an AD/Crit item pass, as with most stuff class versus class balance will be something we reassess once 7.22 hits. AP items we're confident need work regardless by contrast, given a lot of the issues there are more structural (e.g. lack of sufficient choices resulting in things like Morello's first on most mages).

AdalvarOct 6, 20176 votes

Can you comment on what specific aspects of Deathcap you guys plan on hitting? My personal issue is that D.Cap is too expensive, despite it's massive AP gains. Which on the other hand limits how individual AP items can get decent amounts of AP.

VeijariOct 6, 20176 votes

How about making Steraks passive work on champions with X amount of health like Warmogs so Urgot can use it?

TormentulaOct 6, 20176 votes

Meddler,

How do you feel about champions that ran attack speed runes, that don't actually build attack speed, getting no attack speed buffs?

In particular, I'm looking at Elise Nidalee Sejuani RekSai LeeSin Nocturne + more

These champions flow nicely with attack speed runes, especially in skirmishes, 1v1s, and animation cancels, and removing that attack speed might actually affect the entire experience playing them since those are gameplay altering stats rather then just numbers for power/resistance.

item 1041 doesn't cut it, especially since it actually does less damage then old machete, and it just evens out the loss of attack speed reds giving 15% (which doesn't help those that don't go machete like sej and nidalee), and it only works on jungle camps which can be really disorienting since usually players get the feel of their champion and runes while farming and then express that in 1v1s, now its like auto cancel bait when you actually fight somebody since the champion will flow completely different in fights. I'd actually argue a machete revert or attack speed removal with some bonus lifesteal or damage instead, and to just give those champions the base attack speed, along with other skirmishers and marksmen that build it.

AdalvarOct 6, 20173 votes

Given how insane early clear is at the moment and how junglers can emerge in lanes with 1-2 levels ahead of the enemy lane during the first 3 levels of laning phase, having some of those clear tools peeled back doesn't sound like a bad idea. I'd argue that's even more frustrating than catch up EXP

TormentulaOct 6, 20174 votes

Catch up EXP is getting nerfed if I recall correctly.

RiotRiot MapleNectarOct 6, 20174 votes

We haven't locked on exact changes yet, but yep, we're looking at catchup xp

PennsOct 6, 20175 votes

When will ap assassins get magic pen items tho?

Theyre melee and squishy so they cant use Liandrys well and they also have to get Merc Treads/Ninja Tabi vs 90% of mid laners because of it.

If you can buff tanks with Frozen Heart Im sure you can buff assassins too [sg-ezreal]

SalsonOct 6, 20172 votes

What they need is an item made from Haunting Guise and Armguard.

Active would give 30% damage reduction from critical strikes.

Shendelzare1Oct 6, 20175 votes

Any updates for LeBlanc? Leblanc

Shendelzare1Oct 6, 20173 votes

I just wonder who Downvoted me for just asking this,,

WildTomatoOct 6, 20173 votes

There are people that just downvote comments regardless of the content. Pretty stupid

Shendelzare1Oct 7, 20174 votes

Yes,instead of just downvoting they should write an opinion why they dont like this or why they downvoted

5 MOVESPEED BTWOct 9, 20175 votes

where are my chogath nerfs meddler? why can 0/5 chogath 1v1 5/0 master yi? i must be retarded or something

English Mayor Oct 10, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=predator irl,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=TbHlfb46,comment-id=0066,timestamp=2017-10-09T06:42:36.560+0000)

where are my chogath nerfs meddler? why can 0/5 chogath 1v1 5/0 master yi? i must be retarded or something

Well, think about it like this. A black man walks into a bar and takes a seat. He tells the bartender "Whats your specialty?" the bartender then says "Your races are a scourge upon the world!" and snaps his neck in half.

The Yetii RiderOct 6, 20174 votes

Meddler, Nunu has no Keystone. He can't activate Aftershock. Meddler, please acknowledge that you see this. I am genuinely worried about the time period between preseason and whenever Nunu's VGU hits live.

Solari FortuneOct 6, 20172 votes

You could do Grasp for Nunu

The Yetii RiderOct 6, 20171 votes

Grasp deals damage and gives you sustain. Neither of those is important for a tank. A tank needs resistances to survive burst.

A Red HerringOct 6, 20174 votes

Guardian or Glacial Augment would both be amazing for Nunu - especially Guardian IMO as Nunu is essentially a secondary support ATM

The Yetii RiderOct 6, 20171 votes

Glacial Augment is interesting, but why would you want to go so deep into the Inspiration tree? He's a tank. He should be benefitting from the tank keystone like everyone else. This will be particularly hard hitting if tank items are nerfed to compensate for Aftershock's power and Nunu just cannot use Aftershock.

Guardian is bad. I've explained it twice in this thread already but the reason you don't want Guardian is because you should be surrounded by enemies and protecting your allies as they run away. You should be as far from your allies as possible because the further your allies are from you, the further the enemy team is from your allies.

Glory ln DeathOct 6, 20175 votes

Nunu is, like, the definition of "I don't play by the rules" gameplay that Inspiration caters to.

SpideraxeOct 6, 20174 votes

How do you feel about the state of vision in League, since late game with control wards is difficult without sacrificing a whole slot

robotmasterOct 6, 20173 votes

What I don't understand if you really want zyra back in mid make her plants cost 10-50 mana and add the effect every time a plant kills a unit she gains 8-10-12 mana back. This way she can still support and be annoying with her plants with little change and now she can farm better in lane. Brand I don't have an answer for him sorry.

SHIMOxxKUMAOct 6, 20175 votes

Personally don't like this change, it's not the fact she is having mana problems it's the fact that every other mid lane mage either has better ranges, more burst, more utility or the DPS isn't heavily reliant on the AI of plants.

RiotMeddlerOct 6, 20174 votes

Agreed. We'll try something for Zyra soon or soonish. Likely a benefit on kill as with Brand, probably not mana however.

La BelloOct 6, 20172 votes

I would like to see something where Zyra's plant duration are extended so long as Zyra is within a specific range of them (like 500 units or something)

That would at least play up the "Garden" theme and make her solo laning stronger.

FlashnFuseOct 7, 20173 votes

Maybe if her plant kills something, it refreshes its duration or hp or something tothat effect?

SsDragonzPTOct 6, 20172 votes

Please be careful not to hurt (nerf) any champion with the new Runes System. Myself, I am a Zed main and he has been nerfed enough. He isn´t that strong due to the current meta, and I´m afraid the new Electrocute will be a nerfed version of Thunderlord´s. Also the new Stopwatch rune (1 use zhonya for 600g + zhonyas and GA cooldown decrease) is gonna hurt assasssins a lot!

SalsonOct 6, 20177 votes

Isn't that the point of preseason.

To adjust the power of champions who got overnerfed or overbuffed.

RiotMeddlerOct 6, 20176 votes

Yep. It's pretty much guaranteed there'll be champions who are too strong or too weak on launch of the new Runes. We'll be working on those as soon as we can but it will be messy for a bit, hence pre-season and ranked turned off.

TomiMan7Oct 6, 20172 votes

Often, as in cases like this, we don't want to impact a champ's power as a support. If we're just buffing ratios that buffs support too, if we're also nerfing bases that generally nerfs support, at the very least at some points in the game.

So tell me are Brand considered a support or a midlaner? If a midlaner why dont you just MAKE him a midlaner and abandone all that makes him a support now. If you consider Brand a support well...no he is just not so dont go down that road.

MAKE BRAND GREAT AGAIN.

RiotMeddlerOct 6, 20178 votes

We think Brand is, and should be, a mage. We'd like to see players able to play him effectively in multiple positions, and both his support and mid lane play seem to have appropriate counterplay and interesting choices.

TomiMan7Oct 6, 20171 votes

yes that is true, but there is a lot of minor/quality of life thing that should be changed about him. His burst window is just toooo big. I'd make his Dot dmg a bonus dmg instead(same dmg but just not over 4s) His stacked passive takes 2s to expload. Yes this is the counterplay part but 2s is IMHO is just way to much, make it like 1 second. That way its easier to see how much dmg will you do. Do i need to AA more or can i just run and be safe. Brand already has to walk into AA range if he wants to use his E. Making him a bit more safe after his combo wouldnt hurt. This would not make support Brand more powerful just mid lane a bit more viable. Also could mean he can earn more gold since he could take more kills, and wouldnt just stand there in that 2s watching the enemy get killed by his teammates instead of his passive :( Also his E's spread range is abismal.. I play a lot of brand...i play him as i write this. I could go on and on what could be changed.(dont worry im not afk im just dead) A lots of small changed could go a long way on him.

Also may I ask - if You can recall- In 6.09 You guys said Brand could have been a lot cooler if we could fully rework his ultimate. Could you give some info what those changes would have been?

Apex SupportOct 6, 20173 votes

{quoted} His stacked passive takes 2s to expload. Yes this is the counterplay part but 2s is IMHO is just way to much, make it like 1 second. That way its easier to see how much dmg will you do. Do i need to AA more or can i just run and be safe. Brand already has to walk into AA range if he wants to use his E. Making him a bit more safe after his combo wouldnt hurt. This would not make support Brand more powerful just mid lane a bit more viable.

I actually think its a way bigger buff for support brand than it is for mid brand. In the bot lane brand is playing against other sups that have heals and shields that can be used in those 2 seconds.

I'm not against a buff for mid brand but this one feels more like a sup buff to me.

TomiMan7Oct 6, 20172 votes

Dont forget he has to use his full combo to even get to his passive stacks. Any shield support just can use a shield preamptively before its exploads, you dont have to shield some1 right before they get damaged :)

Apex SupportOct 6, 20172 votes

Agree but those shields don't have that much cd. 1 extra second when your shield only has 6 seconds cd just gives you some extra chances to safe some one.

TomiMan7Oct 7, 20171 votes

Agreed but since Brand is not a support he should not be balanced around that role. That is just nonsense. Making him worse (in this case not making him better) just because that would/could hurt his support potential is just not the way it should be.

Apex SupportOct 7, 20172 votes

The thing is if Brand is balanced for mid but completely stumps as a support you have to balance him as well for the support role.