Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 18

RiotMeddler·Oct 18, 2017·1 votes·35,903 views

Hi all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

PBE Sign Ups

First off, for anyone that missed it, PBE sign ups are open again:

https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201751904

Second, for anyone testing on PBE, feedback on the PBE Boards is particularly appreciated.

https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-pbe-feedback

Feedback anywhere's good of course, the PBE Boards themselves get a lot of attention from developers working on stuff currently on PBE though, so visibility there tends to be quite high, especially given it's not too busy a forum. It's also a place where we can be sure whoever's offering feedback at least has a PBE account, so it's much more likely feedback being offered is from in game experience, not just reading about changes.

In terms of type of feedback how things feel/useability is particularly helpful from PBE play, as are bug reports. Balance feedback doesn't tend to be very useful, given so many games have people not trying or large skill discrepancies in them there. Feel feedback on the other hand can be really good even in those circumstances (e.g. how smooth spells are to use, whether a Rune tooltip is intuitive, how easy or difficult a missile is to see etc).

Evelynn

We're still watching Evelynn. She's performing better as people get more experience on her, and we believe she'll be stronger on Runes Reforged than current runes/masteries. She's still underperforming a bit relative to how we'd expect her to be doing at this point though. We'll likely be going with some light buffs in 7.21 as a result, aimed at things that we're confident are good changes regardless of her current power level (good feels impacts that aren't things we'd nerf if she later ended up too strong).

That currently looks like:

Passive not put on CD when hit by minions
Q CD down, refund on jungle monsters down significantly, damage up slightly (bit of extra performance in lane, bit less frantic button mashing needed in general)
E gets a minimum amount of damage on % health damage (ensures E kills mini Krugs in particular)

We've also been testing some flat damage buffs to E, still considering pulling those though, since as above we're not looking to buff too much and those are just power, rather than a feel improvement as well.

Ornn

We had some more buffs for Ornn in 7.20, given he's struggled more than we've expected despite repeated buffs. We think we've got him to about the right point finally so don't have plans for any further balance changes beyond whatever, like other champs, he will or won't need post pre-season. We've been worried about overbuffing him for a while, but haven't yet at least seen indications that that's happened.

Locket

We're also looking at some nerfs to Locket, though uncertain whether those will ship in 7.21 yet or not. Big concern is about how much Locket shuts down burst champs that have to commit to a fight (assassins and divers mainly). By itself Locket's not so much of a problem, when stacked with other ally defending effects however it can make otherwise vulnerable targets excessively hard to kill. One of the directions we're looking at as a result is pushing it so it's still a strong option on tanks but isn't nearly as effective on enchanters.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

276 Comments

NaalithOct 18, 20178 votes

A lot of people (myself included) are super hyped for the Irelia rework and what it will bring to the champion, but we're kind of wondering why Irelia is being chosen over champions like Mordekaiser or Nunu? Irelia is still a functional champion and while she is super stat checky, lots of characters still are. It seemed kind of out of left field that she got chosen next, and even Swain to some extent I would have expected to come around after Morde and Nunu for sure.

Are the teams finding difficulty getting a direction for those two champs in particular? Morde basically serves as the resident bug man and has been super polarizing since his rework, usually bordering on a useless but cool pick simply for his ult, whereas Nunu's entire gameplay revolves around 4 polygons wandering onto your screen to steal your camps or dragons, permaslowing, and giving his allies free stats and overall making the other jungler want to snap his keyboard. I know lots of old champions need to be gotten around to eventually, but those two seem like such massive outliers that I'm a little concerned they aren't getting attention.

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 201715 votes

A lot of it was that the team had really strong concepts for how to make Irelia better that they were really excited to work on. Some of it's also that while how bad a state a champion is in is a major driving factor in selecting VGUs the number of people we can make happy and excited with one's also relevent. Irelia ranked really highly in that regard, in terms of untapped potential and player attachment.

Don't get me wrong, Nunu and Morde are both really close to the top of our list of VGU candidates too though.

DeadUnbornOct 18, 20175 votes

TL; DR Irelia has a cool concept to work on by the designers and while Nunu and Morde are strong candidates for reworks in the near future, the entire player base surpasses that of just these forums. Irelia would probably be really popular in other regions, I'm assuming China personally (because of the recent released sacred sword skins)

FloupiOct 18, 20178 votes

[deleted]

NaqelOct 19, 20172 votes

Yeah, it really blows that they let us taste what Janna having fun would be like, and then immediately nerf her to the point where by the time you would be allowed to have fun, you're no longer allowed to have fun again.

ImaginesTigersOct 18, 20177 votes

I wonder if you'd be able to comment on something I've seen a lot of discussion about recently - that a fair number of mages find themselves somewhat unhappy with the keystones in the Sorcery tree? Are you personally looking for someone like Syndra to use Meteor Strike or Phase Rush, given that her E makes that somewhat impractical (on PBE, people are often punted away from the Meteor, even when stunned)?

Or someone like Orianna, whose ability to proc Phase Rush very reliably makes me nervous?

Taliyah is another, of course, but generally some mages feel left out, and I expect to see a lot dedicating to the Domination tree and losing a lot from it because sorcery is obviously intended to be better.

Some other spells -- Lethal Tempo -- just FEEL better than Meteor does.

Any chance you guys could do some under-the-hood work to make sure that enemies punted by a Taliyah W, or a Syndra E, are correctly honed by the meteor? At present it feels so bad to miss because of your own spells. Throwing a Taliyah E out against someone becomes a worse move when you just want the slow to help with a W.

K CrimsonOct 18, 20177 votes

Hello there! I just wanna ask about any plans on Volibear ? He seems to be kinda outdated and he doesn't provide much for his team.

(Pardon for my language, im not using English so often)

Sw4deOct 18, 20177 votes

Has there been any talk on reverting the fizz rework?

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 201713 votes

It's not something we're considering no.

LandorinOct 18, 20176 votes

Are there any changes being considered for Fizz in future?

I'm a mod of the fizzmains subreddit, and anecdotally there seems to be agreement that the rework removed a lot of skill expression and high moments from Fizz, and failed to replace it with anything meaningful (other than a bigger ult hitbox). I think most people would be really glad to at least see that acknowledged. The reason the revert question comes up so often is because it's an easy answer to those problems.

SpideraxeOct 18, 20174 votes

Also Repertoir mentioned a big post on bot lane balance for the season was being put together can ya share anything from it

GaliöOct 18, 20174 votes

Sigh... Galio is more and more different from the original every time he is touched. I wish as an old galio player i had a voice.

Tbh i highly dislike that rework team other than how they made yorick and eve look. Both of them are awkward meh champs... but they look nice. Wish i can say the same foe the backbrace/injury statue of liber...demacia.

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 201714 votes

What about these changes pushes him even further away from old Galio in your eyes? One of the things that interested us in giving him more reward for building AP and more specialization against magic damage was that it could get a bit more old Galio feel back.

MalrothDragoniaOct 18, 20173 votes

I am also an old galio player, and while I understand the reasons for changing his aesthetics, I really liked his lumbering, winged terror feel.

as for getting him to be more specialized, I wonder why MR scaling wasn't made a bigger part of his kit. Ryze has his mana scaling, Malph, Rammus, Ornn and other tanks have abilities that scale off of defensive stats. Old galio was a terror into all AP teams bc of this, but since MR was tied to his dmg, he became less optimal the more AD was on their team. Being able to stack AP/MR was kind of his deal. I don't know if feeding into a full AP Galio is the way to find that specialization, I think playing up the anti-AP parts of his kit and toning down some of his more general damage reduction might solidify his niche.

Well, that's my two cents anyways.

GaliöOct 18, 20171 votes

Thats not true at all. Galios winrates were higher against AD champs. His highest winrate was against Talon and Rengar.

MalrothDragoniaOct 18, 20172 votes

Well, this was why he had to be reworked. He had the MR-AP passive, but then his ult did more damage the more he was attacked during it. (probably contributing to his effectiveness against AD champs) Definitely conflicting identities. His kit design always seemed to me to be about anti-AP/stacking MR.

I know I always played him as anti-AP tank, or an AP midlaner who could always trade better against other AP midlaners.

KaeblenOct 19, 20171 votes

What if Galio had this crazy scaling added, to make him better vs AP than vs AD? ######people have talked about him still having this problem of still by super effective vs AD, but not significantly better vs AP. ##What if the Max Range on his Taunt scaled up with MR? (the same way Iceborn AOE scales up with Armor.) Since that taunt is also effectively an AOE silence, this would be very good vs AP.

NineTailedMysticOct 19, 20172 votes

That doesn't encourage "Anti-AP". That's just an increase in effectiveness against everyone, and would be unclear what his W range was to people who don't consistently play him.

Kei143Oct 18, 20172 votes

Reading through his old posts, he was a big fan of a "Regen tank".

Rayjay RedfangOct 18, 20174 votes

How do you feel about Zeke's? I have a hard time seeing its impact as opposed to locket.

Also for the locket Nerf, will you be nerfing the base health of the shield and increase the ratios, or Nerf resistances. I ask because enchanters (soraka) can rack up a lot of health while having their ardent censor, and I feel like locket shouldn't be a go to option for all supports unless the situation calls for it.

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 20174 votes

I think Zeke's is hard to evaluate/feel, something that's also been true of Ardent historically true. In Zeke's case though it's sufficiently windowed I suspect it's on the weak side however. It's also going to get overshadowed if other support items are strong.

For locket one of the paths we're looking at is making it more dependent on building really tanky. That might mean less base/more HP ratio, could also mean things like an Armor/MR ratio instead however. We've also been considering other approaches to make it somewhat situational too, like a magic damage only shield. More details to come once we've got both some further testing in and discussed it a bit more.

VelfrithOct 18, 20176 votes

The thing with Zeke's, is that you need to have an ult like Thresh in order for it do to anything mildly useful, its not a bad item, it gives mana which in turn allows for more hooks, but i do think giving it more Armor might server a better purpose for more champs, given what the "frost" holder part of it does, unless that part is reworked, its gonna stay as a good item on 2 maybe 3 good all in initiators with CC on their ult AND gap closers to apply it to it max potential.

Take for example Leona who MIGHT see case in building it, her ult doesn't necesarily has to land, but with so much CC in her kit already, what does a slow do for you, when you could be building rework "not for enchanters" locket instead?

ÇynOct 18, 20173 votes

Eve feels honestly fine, I've played a tonne of games of her across live and pbe on multiple accounts all she needs is a small range buff on the E and She'll be gucci. It feels like she doesn't have a consistent gap closer besides protobelt and that limits her versatility build wise, so if E had enough of a range buff to at least be able to get on top of people with a little more consistency. Overall I love the gameplay changes that the rework has given her, with the invisibility warmoggs and her early levels having much weaker gank potential, but all she needs is a way to ensure she gets ontop of people like the old W and ult had.

ÇynOct 18, 20173 votes

I don't want to have to rely purely on items to get on top of someone, and a trade off of lowering the slow slightly on the W wouldn't phase me as long as her E worked more similarly to warwick Q

TormentulaOct 18, 20172 votes

Gap closing is one of Eve's problems,

There are many more regarding her reliability over literally everything else AP in the jg. Eve's strength is mid game, why would you play eve when there's stuff early game: Elise Nidalee

Why would you play eve when even champions that do scale mid-late are strong early: Warwick Gragas Chogath

but then there's eve, who can't do as much early, powerspikes mid game, and as an assassin falls off late game when people group.

Personally I'd like to see eve's buffs in the post go through and see her reliability performance from there, but she could use either an E range buff or a stealth detection range reduction (its bigger then twitches which is ironic for a melee..)

warpenguin555Oct 18, 20173 votes

Did the midseason changes make support more desirable to play or do most players still want nothing to do with it?

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 20176 votes

Desire to play support has increased meaningfully yeah, which then reduces the frequency at which we have to autofill people to support, or put people with support listed as secondary there instead of their primary. Some of that increase is likely dependent on some things that aren't sustainable long term (e.g. Censer having been very strong and recognized as such) so possible we lose some of it again.

Apex SupportOct 18, 20172 votes

If instead of nerfing ardent / enchanter sups the other supports get a buf or better items for them I don't see why that wouldn't be possible to sustain or even to continue down that road.

Solidair3Oct 18, 20172 votes

And IN that case, are y'all prepared to work more on supports? I'd rather be out of autofill territory than in it.

4GLTEOct 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Desire to play support has increased meaningfully yeah, which then reduces the frequency at which we have to autofill people to support, or put people with support listed as secondary there instead of their primary. Some of that increase is likely dependent on some things that aren't sustainable long term (e.g. Censer having been very strong and recognized as such) so possible we lose some of it again.

So what is your plan to keep Support desirable in the future?

DeathBurstOct 18, 20176 votes

As a Top Main/Sup Secondary, I'll seize the opportunity to give positive feedback and say that yes, it worked, you can currently actually pick Support Secondary and NOT play Support 80% of the time, and that's great. Please do thank the team that worked on that aspect of match-making, because it's much appreciated. I spent a noticeable portion of the Season putting Jungle Secondary, despite my Jungle being much weaker than my Support, just because it allowed me to get my Primary Top more often, and by contrast that was an awful situation.

Positive feedback is important too, y'all ;)

Also, as all the others in this thread asked, I'm curious if you have any plan in mind to keep Support desirable in the future?

Shadow HazardOct 18, 20173 votes

Evelynn's issues have been repeated many times for the mains, the empowered E ranged and related point the stealth radius are both atrocious. The stealth radius is basically the size of the whole lane, and the empowered E doesn't feel so empowering if it doesn't have increased range. Another point that has still be widely repeated is her ability to create map pressure through her map rotation ability, assassins get this either through there mobility spells and/or their higher base movement speed, evelynn has neither. I would suggest making her passive form give a boost of mobility. Frankly the question that needs answering why has these points not been answered exactly why riot is ignoring them (E range, stealth radius, movement speed)?

FF1224Oct 18, 20173 votes

So no changes to jungle timers/camp base stats/experience?

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 20173 votes

As previously mentioned we'll be making some adjustments to gold and XP income in pre-season. Details on those next week probably.

ImaginesTigersOct 18, 20172 votes

A while back you mentioned Ryze changes aimed at lowering his pro play presence and strengthening him for solo queue. The Galio buffs that hit PBE recently really seem to hit that niche, and I was wondering if it's practical to get the same designer on Ryze? I don't think increasing the AP ratio on his root was enough to make his kit buffable in other areas. Especially considering he's a champion that doesn't build that much AP.

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 20173 votes

We've still got that Ryze stuff on a slow boil, main thing that's delayed it is that the Live Gameplay team's been helping out a lot with Runes polish and balancing. A similar approach to Galio's what's on our minds too, the W ratio buff a little while back was a stopgap.

WizZarDOct 18, 20171 votes

Will the new champion be released this season, or would we have to wait for season 8 to get him/her?

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 20176 votes

I'll leave the teasing and revealing of new champs to the team working on them. They've always got stuff in mind for that, whether trailers, in game teases or whatever and I'd hate to undercut that.

AlistarMilkingOct 18, 20171 votes

How do the champion roadmap teasers factor into the team's promo plans?

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 20173 votes

Reav3, who writes those, is part of the Champion team, so that's part of that process.

CarnicoreOct 19, 20174 votes

Maybe you need to make a list of "stuff I won't answer questions about" in the footer of your posts, this is starting to get really repetitive.

KaeblenOct 19, 20172 votes

or sticky post it at the top of dev blogs.

maybe even list what big names are working in what departments, so people like me wont ask questions as much to Rioters in the wrong department.

The Last BalladOct 19, 20172 votes

You are expecting too much of people if you think that they will read that before posting.

How long has the "consider this before posting about balance" thing been up, and how often do people ignore most of what is contained within that post? Too long and too often.

Sir NopeOct 18, 20171 votes

Two questions:

What is the big difference between Divers and Assassins? Some divers feel like better assassins, some assassins are better judged as divers.

Do you think the armor and MR on jungle monsters needs to be adjusted alongside the changes to runes? AP junglers feel a little weak in the jungle on PBE at the moment (except Diana. Dear Lord, Diana.)

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 20174 votes

Generalizations:

Divers - more likely to just approach a fight head on, tankier naturally, usually a mixture of offensive/defensive itemization, stay in the fight to brawl after using CDs, less burst, more CC.

Assassins - more likely to flank, squishier naturally, generally very offensive itemization, often exit a fight after CD/kills, more burst, less CC.

The line can be pretty blurry at times between the two though certainly and at end of day they both have the same core (anti-carry).

For jungle monsters we've been erring on making up needed power for junglers through base stats and/or starting item changes generally. Base stats on monsters could be a good lever though too if those don't go far enough. AP junglers are one of the things the team's potentially looking at in the next couple of weeks.

Sir NopeOct 18, 20172 votes

Thanks for the reply.

The monsters change just feels like a safer option; changing a champ's base stats, especially on the offensive side, can have unintentional consequense of making them stronger against other champions than intended. Changing monster stats means that you only affect how champions interact with monsters.

T8 SpeedwagonOct 18, 20171 votes

Just a quick question since PBE became open. Are you planning on making PBE servers for all regions? I think lot of people tend to get discouraged from playing in PBE due to latency issues.

KazekibaOct 18, 20173 votes

Read the pinned post on the PBE Boards. The solitary server on PBE isn't due to lack of traffic, it's because Riot is HQd in North America and having a single server makes rapid changes and physical maintenance easier, especially if its near home.

KloqdqOct 18, 20171 votes

Hey Meddler, I am curious. Does the champion road map basically layout, "these are the 4 current projects" meaning there isn't any other champions being worked on? Or are teams that would be working on other champions currently more focused towards Runes?

Which brings me to another question, when are Runes hitting live, and how long do you expect you'll heavily focus on them? I know you guys want to hit more champions this coming year so I don't imagine you want to see working on Runes for months on end.

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 20175 votes

The champion roadmaps generally hint at the next new champ and cover updates that are far enough along we're confident we can talk about them without details or release timing changing. Right now though for example we've got both a few other new champions and a few VGUs also being looked at that haven't been discussed in those posts.

I'd expect Runes to be a heavy focus for the first 2-3 months after pre-season especially, with further work on them likely in mid-season and pre-season. There's a lot of champ stuff too we want to get done next year, overall though we'll be putting a lot more time into Runes in both the short and long term than we've historically put into runes/masteries however.