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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 19

RiotMeddler··1 votes·149,264 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Some non 'gameplay' content in these posts

As you might have noticed I've started adding a wider variety of content into these posts occasionally, in addition to talking about core gameplay topics like champion balance, items, the jungle etc. Recent examples include things like how we explored new VO for Miss Fortune, or how the popularity of different queues compares. That broadening is due to a few things.

  1. Wider topics like that seem to be of interest to a lot of players. I know some people aren't interested in them, but many are.
  2. There are some times of the year where there's just not that much gameplay wise to talk about. Right now for example patch to patch change is fairly low given we're focused on preseason development and Worlds is going on. We've already talked about preseason in some detail. We do still want to take the time to communicate with you folks though, so shifting focus a bit makes sense as a result.
  3. My role at Riot's changed since I started these posts. In particular I'm now better able to talk about some things that I didn't have enough context on previously to talk about confidently. There's still a lot of stuff I'm not the right person to cover (when is X champion getting a skin, can you unban my account, what's up with server maintenance etc). I'd like to share wider info as well that isn't just gameplay when I can when it feels like it might be of interest though.

Preseason changes and the PBE

Preseason changes will be on the PBE for longer the just the usual 2 week patch cycle. More details on that, and a run through of a lot of the changes, including many of the harder to spot numbers, next week. Changes are coming along well, still room to iterate and improve though, so feedback on them highly appreciated, especially early in their time on PBE.


Context on some 8.21 changes

We've added, or tested, some late changes to 8.21 as you might have seen. Wanted to share context on a few of them:

  • Aatrox - We looked at a couple of possible nerfs to Aatrox, both lower base MS and/or shorter ult duration. Ended up pulling both though to instead go for more testing and potentially a larger set of changes in 8.22.
  • Aurelion Sol - Taking a bit of power out, in particular making him more vulnerable early to being all in'd. Giving him a bit more regen to make his learning curve a bit less painful (newer players don't take advantage of going back to base to top up as much as they should on him, so regen is disproportionately valuable on them).
  • Irelia - Wanted to cut some power from her in all contexts (lanes, skill levels, different game phases, etc). Mobility looks a bit high, so hitting her base MS by 5 as a result. One of those changes that looks very small on paper but for some champs does have a pretty meaningful impact. Will reassess once its live, see if more is needed or not, with W CD a possible second target.
  • Zac - Buffing Q damage, both base a bit and rankup. Base is aimed at giving a little more early power, rank up at reducing the discrepancy between Q as 2nd max versus 3rd max.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

208 Comments

Sir Nope15 votes

Context for Ivern buffs?

And speaking of jungle supports, will jungler wards ever return?

RiotMeddler14 votes

Dude's weak overall. Putting power into a few places in his case because we don't want to push any one thing too much further. He's extremely distinct already, so sharpening him further's not a goal.

Sir Nope3 votes

Thanks for the reply.

The ward question still stands. Tracker's Knife has been a controversal item, but are there any other attempts in the works?

RiotMeddler8 votes

Oh, sorry, forgot to answer the second half of the question somehow.

No, no plans to bring another ward item in. We think vision amount's in a pretty good spot right now, Control Ward spam in pro/high MMR possibly excepted. Not looking to add another warding item as a result.

ShadowParker7 votes

Thoughts on him being able to normally smite as well?

As an ivern player, it feels awful to have a camp stolen and not being able to smite steal without the passive on

Ragnaveil4 votes

I feel like the amount of time needed to channel on his own champs is kinda why he's suffering quite a bit. A champ like Graves or any other top tier jg can invade and force him out, making Ivern have to channel one camp, and hope the enemy isn't at the one he's gonna channel smite. There might be an avenue with changing his passive to make it better on his own camps, but make it slightly difficult to counterjungle (maybe lock channel smite under a level restriction like how his double buff thing is). These are ideas, and I pitched them to some people I know who loved playing Ivern, and they agreed that work on his passive is a good way to go.

Samtarkras14 votes

Was there any other changes being tested for Aurelion Nerfs? I feel really sceptical about making Aurelion Sol easier to all in, especially in the early game. I play him a decent amount and I know that when your lane opponent gets in your range, you literally can't do anything unless you have flash, ult, zhonya's, or an ally who can help protect you, and it is the worst feeling ever losing because you physically can't fight your opponent at that point. I know that weakness of 'being in his zone' is crucial to his counter play against him but still, I feel like if you made his strengths weaker instead of his already glaring weakness more apparent the changes would feel better. That being said I have no idea what changes you are actually doing to him aside from the regen you mentioned above, so it might not have as negative effect as I am thinking. Thanks for doing all the work you do on league, hope you reply!

The Real N3lo3 votes

I'd be interested in knowing that too. I'm not one to just rage and call the balance team incompetent, but if they honestly believe ASol's strength in SoloQ comes from an inability to "all-in" him... that's seriously concerning.

knochenmarc10 votes

Do you have any informations about Rek'Sai RekSai you could share? Are there any plany to change her in the near future?

Ataraxas10 votes

Hey Meddler, could we get some statistics on the Odyssey event?

Also the client has been getting more laggy by the patch, any thoughts on fixing the client? It's EXTREMELY laggy currently.

RiotMeddler10 votes

Possibly, what sort of stats are you curious about?

Client performance is one of those outside of my expertise things, apologies. I'll pass along stuff I hear about it when I can, but won't have context on what's being worked on, what's problematic etc a lot of the time.

Kei14314 votes

Did yasuo play rate, ban rate, rate of feeding, hate rate increase/ decrease world wide during the event?

What percentages of player base actually completed 2 aug mission and what were the most common augs taken to complete that mission?

What are the most common augs taken in general?

The least common builds that actually worked?

The most unexpected builds?

Learning experiences from this game mode?

Toxicity rate increased in that mode?

Most common champ for same champ mission?

RiotMeddler9 votes

Hmm, imagine we could dig out and share stats for some of those at least. I'll look into it, get some into an upcoming post if so.

Porkys10 votes

Can Draven be able to ping his adoration passive how many stacks and how much gold you will receive for cashing in

For context https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hdEgciZ2-adoration-draven-qol

DorkunedAuras8 votes

Rek'Sai skill curve and overall assessment of her right now? As someone who's stuck with her through the thick and thin, I'm extremely curious how you see her.

Lethality Aatrox8 votes

meddler, an important question that has been bugging me

is it ok if i spam urgotted in all chat if i kill someone as urgot?

RiotMeddler46 votes

Just personal opinion but IMO spamming anything tends to make you a bit of jerk. Saying it once would seem fine to me, repeated feels like you're trying to boast or tilt the enemy team, so kinda crosses a line.

That's not an official Riot stance or anything though.

BobaFlautist8 votes

Urgot'cha is also funnier than Urgottee imo

Laamps3 votes

Urgotta be kidding me...

5050BS7 votes

Still no fix for Zyra?

Dope Solo7 votes

Zoe does not need and should not get buffs.

B446 votes

???????????? kaisa nerfs?????????????????

Salvor Hardın5 votes

Any spoilers on what runes do you plan to modify for the preseason?

I would also like to know if there is any buff or change planned for Sejuani Ryze Shen Gragas .

Have a nice Day!

Lvl100 Scorbunny5 votes

any word on those corki buffs?

RiotMeddler9 votes

We tested a couple of different changes to The Package, trying things like it not knocking people away as much/slowing more (more time in DoT zone), higher damage etc. Didn't have confidence how that was going after playtesting a few versions though. Pulled it as a result, will look at other buffs in a future patch.

Heimerdinger Bot5 votes

Hi Meddler, are there any current plans for Sejuani? Would love to hear what Riot plans to do with Sejuani, she is in desperate need of buffs/changes. Thanks for any info.

shofaz4 votes

Hey meddler good morning. I just wanted to ask what you think of Viktor Top right now? For the first time in years he is actually truly viable in some way. I am asking because i want to know what direction you guys have in mind for Viktor. I don’t want to see Viktor nerfed especially since he is barely viable in the mid lane. Would you guys be ok with Viktor Top or would you guys try to shift some of his power to make him more viable mid lane? Would you guys look at him after preseason? Just gonna ask since I’m pretty sure u guys have already noticed so this post wont be the reason Viktor will be nerfed. Anyway thanks for any reply! And have a good Friday and weekend!

RiotMeddler10 votes

No current plans to nerf Viktor because of his top performance. Will reassess post preseason changes of course, but seems ok so far at least?

shofaz5 votes

Ok again thanks for the reply and have a good friday!

WindLord70704 votes

I posted this last time but I wanna re post in case you didn't see it. Since preseason is coming up I think this would be the prefect time to finally try some changes for lane nidalee. I want to talk about a few changes that could be made to nidalee to help her lane without affecting her jungle too hard. First I want to say I am not asking for jungle nidalee to be removed from the game. This is probably going to turn out as a wall of text and I apologize but this is something I feel very passionately about and I thank you for reading it.

I'll try to keep this listed so that the farther down it goes the more work/stronger the changes are.

  1. Making her traps not proc from lane minions. This change doesn't give her a massive power spike in lane but it does open up more chances to trade which currently she really lacks and is one of the huge reasons why she can't lane well. It's also something that is easy enough to play around. Maybe change her traps so they aren't invisible anymore. This would not give jungle nidalee any power really as she wouldn't be able to just walk in lane and throw a trap down during a gank or even pre place one within a minion wave anyway.

  2. Reducing her mana costs. This is another thing that really hurts her in lane. She can't sustain or throw enough spears to even try to land one. This wouldn't affect jungle nidalee that much due to the amount of mana options she has in the jungle anyway. Even her first clear you rarely run out of mana unless you just don't know what you are doing. this could also slightly reduce the gap in abusive nidalee players and ones just playing her randomly since good nidalee players aren't using a ton of mana anyway.

  3. Refund mana with Human Q when killing a lane minion. Any kind of refund would be a huge help for lane nidalee whether its full or half or whatever number you would decide. This one is pretty straight forward in how it helps farming. And there really isn't anyway for it to be abused as a jungler.

  4. Buffing her attack speed slightly. This helps top nidalee more than mid but it still will help them both farm easier/safer. this could be slightly more powerful on jungle nidalee than one might expect but she also lost the attack speed from the jungle item change awhile ago. Now I'll talk about some bigger changes that could be made.

  5. Changing her from a power farming monster to being more focused around counter jungling. This would be something like reducing her damage to jungle camps and just buffing her damage in general. This clearly helps lane nidalee since she would gain actual damage in lane. And for jungle it creates a more clear playstyle with strengths and weaknesses. This one will probably be pretty controversial and I understand that. As someone who has seen their own main champion have a change in gameplay.

  6. This last one I'm going to talk about would require the most amount of work by far and I don't even know if riot could do it as I don't know anything about coding and what not. Giving her 2 very clear ways of balancing both Lane nidalee and jungle nidalee separately. The idea here is to give her some type of condition that needs to be met to change the way her abilities work. Similar to kayn. You could at the start of the gave have the player choose between two different "adaptations". Jungle adapt and Lane adapt.

Jungle adapt would make it so her passive works the way it currently does and lets her passive apply to monsters. This way no matter what changes you make to the other she has to pick the jungle one if she wants to jungle.

Lane adapt could have any number of things. Any of the things mentioned above. Auto resets back/lowered Cds/Buffed heal/buffed damage. Maybe even reduce her damage to monsters until level 6 to make sure jungle nidalee never takes this adaptation.

This would also keep in line with her "theme" since some people don't like things "breaking lore"

The condition could also be something else. An example would be having nidalee as she currently is but if she farms X amount of lane minions before killing any jungle camps she would adapt to lane.

Sorry for the wall of text but thank you for reading.

Bløød Zerø2 votes

{quoted}

I posted this last time but I wanna re post in case you didn't see it. Since preseason is coming up I think this would be the prefect time to finally try some changes for lane nidalee. I want to talk about a few changes that could be made to nidalee to help her lane without affecting her jungle too hard. First I want to say I am not asking for jungle nidalee to be removed from the game. This is probably going to turn out as a wall of text and I apologize but this is something I feel very passionately about and I thank you for reading it.

I'll try to keep this listed so that the farther down it goes the more work/stronger the changes are.

  1. Making her traps not proc from lane minions. This change doesn't give her a massive power spike in lane but it does open up more chances to trade which currently she really lacks and is one of the huge reasons why she can't lane well. It's also something that is easy enough to play around. Maybe change her traps so they aren't invisible anymore. This would not give jungle nidalee any power really as she wouldn't be able to just walk in lane and throw a trap down during a gank or even pre place one within a minion wave anyway.

  2. Reducing her mana costs. This is another thing that really hurts her in lane. She can't sustain or throw enough spears to even try to land one. This wouldn't affect jungle nidalee that much due to the amount of mana options she has in the jungle anyway. Even her first clear you rarely run out of mana unless you just don't know what you are doing. this could also slightly reduce the gap in abusive nidalee players and ones just playing her randomly since good nidalee players aren't using a ton of mana anyway.

  3. Refund mana with Human Q when killing a lane minion. Any kind of refund would be a huge help for lane nidalee whether its full or half or whatever number you would decide. This one is pretty straight forward in how it helps farming. And there really isn't anyway for it to be abused as a jungler.

  4. Buffing her attack speed slightly. This helps top nidalee more than mid but it still will help them both farm easier/safer. this could be slightly more powerful on jungle nidalee than one might expect but she also lost the attack speed from the jungle item change awhile ago. Now I'll talk about some bigger changes that could be made.

  5. Changing her from a power farming monster to being more focused around counter jungling. This would be something like reducing her damage to jungle camps and just buffing her damage in general. This clearly helps lane nidalee since she would gain actual damage in lane. And for jungle it creates a more clear playstyle with strengths and weaknesses. This one will probably be pretty controversial and I understand that. As someone who has seen their own main champion have a change in gameplay.

  6. This last one I'm going to talk about would require the most amount of work by far and I don't even know if riot could do it as I don't know anything about coding and what not. Giving her 2 very clear ways of balancing both Lane nidalee and jungle nidalee separately. The idea here is to give her some type of condition that needs to be met to change the way her abilities work. Similar to kayn. You could at the start of the gave have the player choose between two different "adaptations". Jungle adapt and Lane adapt.

Jungle adapt would make it so her passive works the way it currently does and lets her passive apply to monsters. This way no matter what changes you make to the other she has to pick the jungle one if she wants to jungle.

Lane adapt could have any number of things. Any of the things mentioned above. Auto resets back/lowered Cds/Buffed heal/buffed damage. Maybe even reduce her damage to monsters until level 6 to make sure jungle nidalee never takes this adaptation.

This would also keep in line with her "theme" since some people don't like things "breaking lore"

The condition could also be something else. An example would be having nidalee as she currently is but if she farms X amount of lane minions before killing any jungle camps she would adapt to lane.

Sorry for the wall of text but thank you for reading.

Nice how about for human q if it hits any enemy including minions she refunds half mana and if it kills refunds full?

How about we make her more wild side and whenever she enters a brush she gains adaptive dmg or magic pen (I personally like the latter) scaling with level implemented into her passive. This would make her clears nicer but not too overpowered early as it takes time to scale. This make counter jungling and assassination all the more present in her power spike. This could also help with top lane nid and some unique way that isn't too abusive midlane.

How about removing the attack speed buff part from her human e and replace it with some on hit dmg for the same period? Idk this one was just a random thought that sounded kind of fun. Don't take this one too seriously. Or do if you want.

What if her traps instead of doing the minor dmg they do how about a slow and reduce magic resistance. Not by some crazy amount on either of the numbers but yknow make it feel like a hunting trap not some baby burn that gives vision. Do keep the passive part of it still and please make it not affectable by lane minions.

Here are some other random ideas I got but idk I don't know nid that well. For obvious reasons none of these ideas are meant to all be put together.

Her cat q gives a bonus on kills of minions and monsters.

Her human e heal is stronger in a bush or jg.

After killing a monster or minion her next auto attack is empowered. Has level scaling+mediocre AP scaling and a 20-15 second cooldown.

Well that's all. Hmm one last request or Idk what this is lol. Create a way for behind nidalee to make an impact. I feel as though if she gets behind slightly and the enemy builds one hexdrinker or any mr she suddenly drops way too in damage and then provides not nearly as much use as even an Elise could provide. Give me feedback, I don't play nid almost at all but I love her design and used to play her season 5 quite a bit on my old account that got hacked...

WindLord70701 votes

She doesn't need mana refund when just hitting enemies. That would also be abused by jungle nidalee same with giving her damage while in a bush. The attack speed buff is something that is very important despicably for AD nidalee so unless they buffed her base attack speed this wouldn't be a good change. I could see traps slowing champs and not damaging them for more than 1 damage as a thing. It's not something that can be easily abused at all and it's not the different from when she does build rylais. Her heal doesn't need to be stronger in the jungle that isn't where she has problems with sustain if they could do that in lane that would be fine though. Same with a bonus to killing things with her Q unless there where some other changes that went along with it. Like what I talked about with the "adaptation" thing.

Bløød Zerø1 votes

{quoted}

She doesn't need mana refund when just hitting enemies. That would also be abused by jungle nidalee same with giving her damage while in a bush. The attack speed buff is something that is very important despicably for AD nidalee so unless they buffed her base attack speed this wouldn't be a good change. I could see traps slowing champs and not damaging them for more than 1 damage as a thing. It's not something that can be easily abused at all and it's not the different from when she does build rylais. Her heal doesn't need to be stronger in the jungle that isn't where she has problems with sustain if they could do that in lane that would be fine though. Same with a bonus to killing things with her Q unless there where some other changes that went along with it. Like what I talked about with the "adaptation" thing.

I guess so just thought of some things they did for other champs that's why. Like compensation changes I meant if she were to get any of those maybe her mana costs would be higher so she can't just completely abuse them but just use q to last hit or poke once in awhile before going all in. Tbh Idk just wanted to put out some ideas maybe pique a new idea from you and others. I always love seeing people discuss and put live towards a champ that deserves it. Maybe if enough people talk about it riot will see and take the ideas they like best. We can only hope.

WindLord70703 votes

I agree. Just getting people talking about it is a good thing imo. There was quite a bit of discussion over on the nidalee reddit awhile ago but riot doesn't seem to use champion specific reddits that much.

Quintervention4 votes

You mentioned in a previous post that you were thinking about making jungle camps spawn earlier so people don't stand around doing nothing before minions and camps spawn. I totally understand the rationale behind this, but as a Shaco player I have to ask: Is our favorite clown going to be compensated somehow, either in numbers or with a mini-rework of his boxes?

I completely see how the game as a whole might benefit from spawn times being earlier, but Shaco NEEDS the extra time to set up his first clear, and if camp spawns are earlier thus not allowing him to put down four boxes, his first clear is severely hindered. The champion thus far has been balanced with his strong and/or versatile first clear in mind, and he needs the pre-spawn time to enable this, so making the proposed change could essentially gut Shaco unless he's compensated in other ways. He already struggles enough in the early game because it's so easy to fall behind on him.

What if the boxes were changed to a "charge" system similar to other champions' traps, and upon first level-up he received two traps? This would allow you to push the spawn times forward without gutting his first clear.

Darkomantis4 votes

Meddler, is it possible for us to have Ascension again? I bought skins specifically for Ascension but with no return, I don't feel inclined to spend money on the game. In one of the previous Dev Corner threads over a year ago, it was said that Riot was working on making RGM available in custom games. Is it possible to get an ETA on that?

atlıkarınca3 votes

So this means Lissandra's passive next cycle isn't there? Because you were going to call us when you were ready.

RiotMeddler10 votes

It's not next patch, no. Have been testing a change for the last couple of weeks that seems to have address the lack of reliability/appreciation though, so back on track there. Will get some details into first post of next week.

atlıkarınca4 votes

Ok, I'm waiting with excitement.

MetaKaizer3 votes

There have been a few running animation updates floating around. What are the plans with those and are there more coming in the future?

RiotMeddler10 votes

They're pretty opportunistic work at the moment, getting done when an animator's got a bit of time between larger champion projects. Likely, but not guaranteed, there'll be some more as a result.

Destello Azul3 votes

{quoted}

  • Irelia - Wanted to cut some power from her in all contexts (lanes, skill levels, different game phases, etc). Mobility looks a bit high, so hitting her base MS by 5 as a result. One of those changes that looks very small on paper but for some champs does have a pretty meaningful impact. Will reassess once its live, see if more is needed or not, with W CD a possible second target.

Imo you won't solve the problem about mobility, becuase item 3078. To solve it, increse th Q cd in 4 seconds if fail, and pls change the W values, 50% damage reduction at level 1 is retardet. Change it to 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 %. TY.

IG Ziko2 votes

This.

Aboreen3 votes

I'm not exactly sure why Aatrox would deserve more nerfs? He's below 48% wr in top/mid soloq, and it's not like he's dominating the pro-scene by any means of the word. You've constantly be smacking him down, trying to instill more of his power into his ultimate and now you're going to nerf his ultimate on top of all that? That not only seems unnecessary, it's almost insulting. He's more nerfed than his worlds counterpart right now and knowing the trend from balance team he's going to feel more before he gets left alone.

To think this is the same team that took their sweet time to nerf Zoe in any meaningful way is hilarious (not to mention her pending buffs that will almost certainly go through).

Kæla Mensha Kayn2 votes

While I do agree aatrox doesn't really need a nerf, he's 100% P/B in worlds now, or damn near close to it. The thing is, I don't know what about him needs a nerf - his sustain has already been halved, so thats not too high, his E got the 1-charge when learning thing, his R got it's CD increased and his Q is(imo) meant to deal the damage it does - it's basically 80% of his damage. His passive is fine, and his W is also fine. He just has a good kit, idk what riot can do about that other than making changes. And he's also pretty fun to watch in pro play, seeing as how he's a very viable snowball champ(Licorice's 1v3 play was pretty cool).

voltzalotz2 votes

When Morde rework comes out can you guys also update shadow isles lore, do a harrowing event and release a pentakill album?

Raaven The Red2 votes

You buffed Aatrox not too long ago and now you want to nerf him again? Is this some kind of a bad joke? Just fix his joke and taunt and give him some new skins maybe. That's all he needs. If Master Yi, Yasuo, Darius and Fiora can be overpowered then I think Aatrox deserves to have a little dominant power as well. But of course it's just my honest oppinion.

Gnart Even Close1 votes

Hi Meddler, is there anything you can share about the Gnar work that was cancelled and how you feel about Gnar's current balance of power between Mini and Mega?

Would you consider doing a relatively simple changelist like: Mini:

  • Base movement speed -> 335 from 335-355

  • Hyper % HP damage -> 6-12% from 6-14%

  • Hyper movement speed bonus -> 30-60% from 30-75%

Mega:

  • Boulder Toss AD ratio -> 1.3 from 1.2

  • GNAR! AD ratio -> 0.5 total AD from 0.2 bonus AD

Lemonfaace1 votes

TLDR; Gnar does not need a weaker mini form, and buffing mega form won’t fix his problems. He simply doesn’t have solo carry potential anymore, even as a hyperscaling lane bully.

Gnar is not really that strong, even though he scales hard... His strengths rely heavily on his team until late game, and if your team falls behind, Gnar will not be able to carry. His range is short, and his mega form is only as impactful as your team is.

Gutting his mobility and %hp dmg will even further reduce his carry potential and make him easier to build against (item 3047). He simply won’t have enough time in mini form to do real damage.

I personally think most of his problems would be fixed with a slight range buff as mini. That would give him enough reach to do more damage on his own without getting easily popped. His %hp could then get slightly nerfed if need be, as he’d be more able to poke down tanks and may need to be managed.

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

TLDR; Gnar does not need a weaker mini form, and buffing mega form won’t fix his problems. He simply doesn’t have solo carry potential anymore, even as a hyperscaling lane bully.

There's his design issue.

HYPERSCALING LANE BULLY.

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